Jim Lawrence (AccessD)
accessd at shaw.ca
Sat Dec 13 19:12:22 CST 2003
Well said Arthur: The SQL versions that each company has designed is different but if you know one version well that knowledge can be leveraged to any of these platforms. Recently, I tested a function in A2K and when it was running perfectly, just cut and pasted into an Oracle function and after about fifteen minutes of twiddling around it was operation...elseif to elsif, = to :=, ; at the end of each statement and a slightly different set of declaration.. done. I suggest that if you learn to program one you learn them all. My two cents worth. Jim -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:24 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning DatabaseConcepts? All of this could just as well be taught in an MBA course. When the late Doctor Codd enunciated the first rules (NOT SQL -- most emphatically NOT SQL), the concept was a portable language that all vendors could implement. Since then the marketing crew at every company has promoted vendor-specific additions to the core language. The result is, pretty much, that if you are an Oracle expert you have a lot to learn about MS-SQL, and if you're a Postgres expert ditto, and if you're an MS-SQL ditto. You can write sprocs for Oracle in Java. MS responds by letting us write sprocs in ADO.NET. It's still unclear what MySQL intends. I don't know anytbing about DB2 so cannot provide a similar statement. Now as to the statement about Access not being a good tool for teaching SQL. I think that the real question is whether a GUI query designer is the right tool. On this question, I think the answer is yes. Graphical tools are infinitely better than command line tools, because a picture is 1000 words. Imagine typing "turn left 90 degrees" into the keyboard in your car. A steering wheel is a graphical tool. Arthur -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Martin Reid Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:38 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning DatabaseConcepts? We teach then standard SQL as once they leave me they move onto various systems but mainly Ingres which is the "corporate" db we use in the University. Also doing a MySQL course on Tuesday. That should be interesting. Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Barabash" <BBarabash at tappeconstruction.com> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:58 AM Subject: RE: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning Database Concepts? > But do you teach them Access SQL, or a more standard variety? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Reid [mailto:mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:53 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning Database > Concepts? > > > Is Access a suitable tool for teaching database concepts to students? > > Seems to be the subject > > I use Access to teach database design to students on a Computer Degree > course. I use non graphical tools for teaching SQL because they are > not permitted to sue them on the course same goes for HTML > > > Martin > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brett Barabash" <BBarabash at tappeconstruction.com> > To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:46 AM > Subject: RE: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning Database > Concepts? > > > > IMHO, the Access query designer is a rotten way to teach someone how > > to write SQL code. I have developed Access apps for 8 years now, > > and I still > > cannot get more than 2 tables to join without using the QBE grid. > > For example (using the Northwind database), if I wanted to join the > > Orders > table > > to the Order Details and Employees tables in Transact SQL, it would > > look > > like: > > > > --- > > SELECT Orders.* > > FROM Orders > > INNER JOIN [Order Details] > > ON [Order Details].[Order ID] = Orders.[Order ID] > > INNER JOIN Employees > > ON Employees.[Employee ID] = Orders.[Employee ID] > > --- > > > > Simple, intuitive, easy to learn. In fact, I wrote that snippet > > just now > in > > this email because it is so simple to do. > > > > Access, however, looks like (taken directly from the QBE grid > > contents): > > --- > > SELECT Orders.* > > FROM Employees > > INNER JOIN (Orders > > INNER JOIN [Order Details] > > ON Orders.[Order ID] = [Order Details].[Order ID]) > > ON Employees.[Employee ID] = Orders.[Employee ID]; > > --- > > > > How the h*ll are you supposed to teach the rules of this join syntax > > to someone just learning SQL? You could spend weeks just teaching > > them the various Jet engine rules for bracket placement! > > > > When I took SQL Server in college, we didn't have any visual design tools > to > > use, just the query analyzer. Students completely new to SQL in > > general were writing complex queries after the first day! > > > > OTOH, the Access QBE grid is far more useful than the one in > > Enterprise Manager, which is a good thing since I need to use it for > > virtually all of > > my Access queries. Whereas I tend to manually type 90% of my SQL > > Server queries in the query analyzer. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research > > [mailto:alan.lawhon at us.army.mil] > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:22 AM > > To: 'accessd at databaseadvisors.com' > > Subject: [AccessD] Slashdot: SQL vs Access for Learning Database > > Concepts? > > > > > > This was posted on Slashdot last night. I'm sure some of the folks > > on > here, > > (like maybe Susan Harkins, Martin Reid, and John Colby), might have > > an interesting opinion about whether or not Access is a good > > "training > vehicle" > > for > > learning SQL. > > > > > > > http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/11/1811206&mode=thread&tid= 146& > > tid= > > 185&tid=99 > > > > P.S. About midway down in the reader postings, there are links to several > > articles comparing the pros and cons of Access [SQL] to other SQL > products. > > > > > > Alan C. 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