Charlotte Foust
cfoust at infostatsystems.com
Fri Apr 7 17:36:00 CDT 2006
Shamil, I don't think anyone intended any criticism or disparagement of programmers in other countries. All our ire was poured out on the idiot who thought he could replace an on-the-spot programmer with someone several thousand miles away who may not speak the same first language and then expect the only difference to be price. That's why we carefully kept the quotes around "east Indian", since it was obviously just a category for offshore programming. With the right specs and good understanding, there's no reason offshore programmers can't do the same quality job as local could. The gotcha in that is that clients can't write adequate specs, so they're going to get junk, no matter how much they pay. It isn't the offshore competition that threatens us, it's the idiots who look for bargains without understanding what they're buying. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:30 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... Jim, That's in my opinion a correct/the best for you solution of this issue. He most probably go bankrupt soon. It may happen also he will make a fortune but he will never feel lucky from this fortune made on overexploitation of others. So the correct Wiseman solution is to leave him to go on his own... > Folks overseas don't really understand how we do business here. I'm sorry - this is not correct statement, Jim :) I have been silently watching the first set of answers on this thread - just to get the common context on this issue existing overthere. Folks it's biased, this context and the common opinion, believe me. People do business very similarly these days all around the World, especially in IT. The only difference are the hourly rates/wages, which are still lower on the East. But they are also growing very quickly here and e.g. in many modern professions they are as high as on the West or nearing to them. Unfortunately software development here is not one of the popular professions. This is because there is no yet high market demand on custom software development for middle-/small-businesses, which themselves are in "embryonic" state here. They should "wake up" soon when Russia enters WTO. A developer's day cost for big companies here is ~800USD/day - not as high as there but not bad at all. And this market exists for big players here for quite some time and only grows. The effectiveness of the design and programming work is quite low in average in the West Europe as I have seen. The level of failures in very high. Everybody knows that this "ever lasting software development crisis" started when the first programming language was created and it will probably last forever. And this is this crisis and inability for a long time to solve it what creates demand on low cost IT labor. I here have many times these "east Indians", "east Europeans" (including Russians of course) crossing my road, stealing my customers by bidding "dirt cheap" etc. As the result I lost almost all hopes a couple of years ago to find well paid projects to live here and to keep my family well. The situation changed to the better now, I have some good work but I still have to work as twice as I worked five years ago just to keep the same living level as before. And I can't say this "endless working marathon" is what I wanted from this life most of all... The situation was that bad here that I even started to try to bid for projects on RentACoder - and I have soon found that "dirt cheap" are not only "east Indians" - these are folks (young programmers) from all around the World, many of them are from the West Europe and US and Canada - they are also going bidding lower than USD10/hour.... The civilized overseas programming average rates are currently 30USD/hour. They were higher, around USD 50/hour on year 2000 eve. But I doubt this (30USD/hour) relatively low rate will leave you there unemployed because to compete effectively worldwide, worldwide effective real or virtual companies have to be created and to manage these companies, to effectively contact the local customers over there experienced managers and developers like you are needed. There are not that much people like that there as far as I see - I think you can feel safe, at least while your economy is growing... And there is so much programming work here - when you'll have all work done there ( :) ) then we will have a lot of it here for you and you'll be paid your usual rates because the rates here will be by that time the same as there and you will not need to go live here - you'll be able to work off-shore as well as I can do it now because of the high level of the current communication technlogy and because my qualification is good enough go compete worldwide without even leaving my home/office... When the companies here go "dirt cheap", pay their programmers low wages then they have very high level of "work force leakage", unhappy developers leaving this country in searching for the better life over there. I have seen/visited such companies here - they state they are great, well, maybe, they develop not bad software - but, boy, you have to see the eyes of their developers, many of them are so sad and hopeless... Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at earthlink.net> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > Eric, > > I won't do that. The problem with that setup is that the thinking and > the > culture are just too different. Folks overseas don't really understand > how > we do business here. I've seen way too many apps developed overseas that > were just trash because of this. > > And you'll end up paying later as well; ever try to debug a program > commented with poor English or even worse, another language? > > I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... > > Jim. > <<< tail skipped >>> -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com