Jack Stone
jack.stone at solidcounsel.com
Mon Sep 10 13:39:36 CDT 2007
Well, after what I said below, I guess I am one of those that say you can copyright code, but as I also said, it is not worth much, and I don't believe I have ever advised a client to do it. I will note too that copyright is limited to protecting expression, and does not extend beyond that to protect method, application, and solutions, at least not in the sense of those words as I understand them. Patents are another story. While I sometimes include code in the detailed description portion of a patent as an example of one way to implement an invention, I don't believe I have ever written a patent so that it was limited to any particular embodiment of code. The subject Weinman patent is a case in point. The purpose of a patent is to protect function (not mere expression, as with a copyright), including any way that a function may be performed, and so the legal metes and bounds of a software patent are typically defined at a high level by flow charts and/or structure, and rarely ever by code, even though code obviously underlies all of it. If it were limited to a particular embodiment of code, then it would indeed be easy to design around, and so not worth much, or overkill as you say. Re being "sold a pup", we never bought it and it was not part of the arragnement (e.g., as a contingency), we were just stuck with it, as can happen in any business when a client defaults in payment and/or goes bankrupt. Jack -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan Harkins Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:06 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent Thanks Charlotte -- I wanted to say the same thing days ago, but just listened instead. I'm in a rather unique position because I write about code. You can't copyright code, although... some will tell you can. You can copyright the method in which you share the code -- like a recipe, but you can't copyright the actual code. Authors and developers that tell you they own code and warn you that if you can't use it independently of them are blowing smoke. Applications and solutions are definitely copyrightable, but even then, all someone has to do is change something just a bit, and wa-la... a new solution. We see this everyday on this list -- given the same problem, we see different solutions, but often, the same exact solution from several people. You can't claim that as your own, although you can claim the finished product as your own and even protect it through licensing. A patent really seems like overkill on any kind of code-dependent solution, but not sure it even matters. Nicholas Roosevelt, not Robert Fulton, invented and even patented the side paddle steamboat apparatus, but nobody knows that or even cares and he never made a dime from it because the "technology" exploded -- to have chased it would've cost him more money than he would've made in restitution. I think a patent is only as good as the lawyers you can afford. Susan H. Jack, Thanks for clarifying the situation. The client may have the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's unlikely to be unique. Most of us don't bother with copyright/patent applications because any competent programmer could come up with virtually identical code for the same problem. It isn't so much that it's in public domain as that there are a finite number of ways to deal effectively with a problem, and the developer community tends to share their methods, so eventually the code is homogenized into something we could all claim as our own. If the client created a database engine, that's a different product entirely, but I suspect you've been sold a pup. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jack Stone Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:03 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent All, Hello, my name is Jack Stone, new to this forum. I am the patent, trademark, and copyright attorney that Rocky referred to that has the client who got the subject patent, and on whose patent my name is listed as the attorney of record. First, I want to express how extremely impressed I am, not only with the vast wealth of knowledge you guys collectively have, but also with how you are all so willing to take the time to share it, for which I am very grateful. As a patent attorney, I am certainly no expert in databases. I just represent a client before the Patent Office with whatever invention he/she has, and do my level best to get a patent for them. And with all the prior art that is apparently out there, I guess I did a good job with this one. So while I may not be an expert in databases, after reading the myriad of email responses that this patent has elicited, I am starting get the distinct impression that just maybe the Patent Office granted a patent that should not have been granted (it would not be the first time). However, in the defense of the Patent Office, when deciding on novelty (and "non-obviousness"), all the "prior art" they generally consider, or have the resources to consider, are other patents at the Patent Office. Hence, what some responses have alluded to as many people not pursuing patents when they could have, and as a result, the Patent Office not being fully aware of all the technology out there when granting a patent is, unfortunately, correct. If an inventor is aware of any prior art, he does have a duty to disclose it to the Patent Office, but my client was evidently not aware of any (he needs to join your forum). Having said all that, if the invention/technology is out there, but is not in the public domain, i.e., is kept as a trade secret, then it may be possible for a second inventor to get a patent on the invention if he/she subsequently independently develops it, and then charge the earlier inventor using it as a trade secret with infringement. Classic example is if someone independently comes up with the formula for Coca Cola, they could get a patent on it and shut down Coca Cola (that is, if they didn't have an "unfortunate" accident and end up face down in a ditch somewhere). But it sounds like the prior technology has not been kept as a trade secret, so my client may be SOL on that count. But the patent may still have some nuisance value, that is, even if it could ultimately be invalidated, it may cost a defendant a million dollars to do that, and so such a defendant may instead settle for $250,000 to be rid of it or even buy it. Who knows? I have seen stranger things happen. In this case, the client defaulted on payment of about $40,000 to our firm, and we obtained a court judgment against him for that amount. The client says he cannot pay us, so maybe we would be trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, which ain't gonna happen. So we were considering obtaining title to the patent, if it has any value. If it did, and any of you could help us distill that value from it, we would be pleased to let you keep whatever we can get for the patent in excess of the $40,000, or maybe work out some other arrangement if you would prefer. BTW, FWIW, my client is actually using the patented idea at http://www.webmusicdb.com, not exactly another YouTube. Re Drew's comment below, he is absolutely correct (except for a "design" which can sometimes be copyrighted), i.e., "You can't copyright an idea. You can copyright code, at any time, or a book (Actually, the text within the book). But an idea or design must be patented." But the problem with a copyright, especially on code, is that it is much more narrow than a patent, and so is generally easy to design around, and so is generally of little value. So we almost always advise clients to seek a patent on a function performed by code, and rarely ever advise someone to seek a copyright on code. Jack Stone Scheef & Stone, L.L.P. 5956 Sherry Lane, Suite 1400 Dallas, Texas 75225 Direct 214.706.4207 Main 214.706.4200 Fax 214.706.4242 jack.stone at scheefandstone.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:00 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent You can't copyright an idea. You can copyright code, at any time, or a book (Actually, the text within the book). But an idea or design must be patented. Drew -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Julie Reardon Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:16 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent I'm really surprised that the US patent office granted this patent. Maybe no one else ever applied for one? I do have four databases registered with the US copyright office. It seems to me that the copyright office may be a better alternative for this type of application. Julie Reardon PRO-SOFT of NY, Inc. 44 Public Square, Suite 5 Watertown, NY 13601 Phone: 315.785.0319 Fax: 315.785.0323 NYS IT Contract#CMT026A NYS Certified Woman-Owned Business www.pro-soft.net -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:08 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent Rocky, I have to chime in on this because it doesn't sound new to me either. I didn't even think such a concept could be patented, since there are built-in provisions in most, is not all, database languages for adding or dropping fields, changing datatypes, etc. I have to wonder what kind of database experience this gentleman has, based on his stated assumptions. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin at Beach Access Software Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:18 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Cc: 'Jack Stone' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent Shamil: Thanks for your response. So you see nothing unique in this patent? (BTW, the patent is not pending, but has been granted.) Does this look like "old" technology to you? Is it obsolete technology based on what you describe below as the current methods of implementing changes in the datamodel? Just out of curiosity - So during the time that the new datamodel is being tested in the "shadow" database, am I correct in assuming that the real-time changes that are going on in the production database are also happening in the "shadow" database? That it's a mirror? Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:55 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent Rocky, I'd think that all the ideas on different adaptable database structures on conceptual, logical, physical levels were invented in 70-ies-80ies. Maybe even 60-ies when first flat file/VSAM/hierarchical databases were introduced and used... There were zillion of articles written in scientific areas, there were many research projects - I'd suppose that all these ideas are free to use because they came from open sources as a result of research of many scientists/researchers from many countries and these ideas have been since implemented in many free and commercials DBMSs we use these days... If I did get correctly the subject pending patent idea - it reminds me the principle, which is the core principle of implementing what is called ADABAS - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adabas ... I'd also note that there is no any reliable company these days which would put its online database into maintenance mode for more that a couple of minutes and only in very unforeseen contexts: I mean when datamodel changes happen they are done on a shadow copy of the main database(s), then these changes all are tested online in what is usually called UAT environments (User Acceptance Test) - when all the tests pass then in a fraction of second the main database is "replaced" with its upgraded shadow copy - e.g. for properly developed ASP.NET 2.0 application switching backends can be done by just fixing one web.config file - even switching from say MS Access to MS SQL to Oracle backend - of course for the latter switch there should be also DAL level code replacement but again it can be done in "hot" mode if that will be requested and paid for the development of such "hot" mode switching... ) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin at Beach Access Software Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:48 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Database Patent Dear List: A client who is a patent and trademark attorney is interested in opinions on a patent - basically it's a way to update databases on-the-fly by disconnecting the data from the data definition. You can download the patent by going to this web page: http://www.pat2pdf.org/ and entering the patent number 7003524. I guess I'm looking for opinions on whether this is a solution to a problem that exists and whether there is something of value in this approach. I know there's some deep database design talent on this list so I'm thinking this is the best place to start the research. Here's a teaser. From the patent: TECHNICAL FIELD The invention relates generally to databases and, more particularly, to the underlying schematic structure of databases. BACKGROUND Large databases running in publicly accessible environments are notorious for their inability to accommodate change. In today's world of massive access to large databases via the Internet, it is increasingly common to encounter messages to the effect of "database is down for maintenance" instead of the actual data requested. In a conventional database environment, when a change needs to be made to the schematic structure of a database, the data in the database must be extracted from the database in the old structure and re-written to the database in the new structure. If new data were to be inserted into the database while said changes were being effected, it could cause unpredictable effects to the database. Such effects could include corruption of pre-existing data, misapplication of database changes, misalignment of data relative to internal data boundaries, or any number of problems that could render the database effectively incoherent. Such results are untenable in most live database deployments. Conventionally, the most common solution to the problem of updating during changes to the schematic structure is to simply disallow it. Conventional databases also require a tight bind between the data type and the data storage. Users require that the data they request be presented in a manner consistent with the expected usage of the data. For example, a date may be stored in the database as a string of decimal digits (e.g., 20010303), but to present the data to the user in its raw form would be unacceptable. A conventional computer user requires that it be presented in a manner consistent with its usage (e.g., Saturday, 3, Mar. 2001. In order for the date to be presented in a manner consistent with its usage, the database must carry type-related information along with each unit of data. Binding between data and type is conventionally accomplished by organizing the data into metaphorical rows and columns. Rows of data are divided into pre-defined columns, where each column represents a particular data type and/or use of the data. Such data/type binding allows a computer program to make assumptions and inferences about the data appropriate to its type. Additional rows of data may be readily added to a database. However, if a new column is desired in a database, then the database must typically be made unavailable for a period of time so that data can be converted into the new format. Modifications to pre-existing programs would have to be made, along with the requisite testing and debugging necessary to validate any new code. It is also worth noting that in conventional databases there tends to be redundancy in the storage of data. For example, cities, states, zip codes, and telephone area codes may be repeated among a number of rows of data. Such redundancy results in inefficient use of memory. In light of the foregoing, it is apparent that there is a need for a system and method for modifying the schematic structure of a database without making the database unavailable for the entry of new data. Preferably, such a system and method would, among other things, also minimize redundancy of data in a database. SUMMARY The present invention, accordingly, provides a database in which an application program accesses data stored in a records data set (RDS) and a categories data set (CDS). The RDS contains at least one RDS entry having a data field configured for representing data. The CDS contains at least one CDS entry configured for being associated with at least one RDS entry and having at least one data type field sufficient to describe the type of data contained by the at least one associated RDS entry. The invention thus provides a database whereby data is isolated from its definition, thus avoiding the problems associated with the rows-and-columns model enumerated above, and permits the underlying schematic form of the database to be changed based on modifications to the CDS, without requiring any actual changes to the schematic structure of the RDS or the underlying database. By virtue of this same isolation it is also possible to reduce data redundancy with varying levels of granularity and create an object-oriented data model. MTIA Rocky -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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