Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru
Fri Jul 3 04:57:17 CDT 2009
Well put, Steve, thank you :) <<< The fact that anyone can have a go, and think they're doing cool stuff, but in reality making a mess >>> I suppose this is the core issue and not only for MS Access development: anyone can have a go and many of those can produce "good enough" applications, and the latter are what often is "good enough" for many businesses' automation especially small and even middle. The gap between "good enough" and professional is very large - a part of "good enough" group gets into professional group but the volume of "good enough" group is so large that it corrupts real value of professional group. Also I'd note that technology is getting developed so quickly these days that what was considered professional work several years ago nowadays becomes a "kids play": one example - I watched several years ago a coursework of my daughter who were that time a student of Financial University here - the stuff she was doing in MS Excel and MS Access was what I was doing as a professional developer somewhere in 1995-2000, and she was doing also her database datamodel normalization and using autonumber Ids etc. - and that was in Financial not Computer Science related university. Now, imagine (do you know?) what nowadays students do study/master when they specialize in Computer Science? - and most of those students are ready to produce "good enough" stuff when in or right out of high school/college, quite some of them can start working on very high level... Of course years and years are needed for most of "good enoughers" to get on real professional level but who cares - they can get produced "good enough" stuff right now, and quite some mess sometimes as you noted. Well, have one never produced a messy software in one's professional developer carrier? - of course not but real professional developers who can fail sometimes and make such a mess are feeling always responsible to clean it unlike "good enough" folks... Just my .02 roubles worth addition to your great post and blog I have found very interesting to read... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve Schapel Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 5:46 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access I love it Well put, Tony. I have heard it said that the best thing about Access is that it's part of Office, and the worst thing about Access is that it's part of Office. For one thing, if it wasn't part of Office, it's doubtful it would have survived like it has. On the other hand, it is clearly in a completely different league compared with the other Office products. As John correctly pointed out, it takes a lot of hard work to achieve proficiency. In the sense that it is used to "develop" database applications, it is clearly a developer program. Here's another thing that is a best/worst thing about Access. It provides the ability for beginners to make effective simple applications, as well as providing a very powerful set of tools for professional developers to build complex applications. It simplifies the ability to connect to a wide range of data sources. It provides for a wide range of different application types - desktop / multi-user / hybrid desktop-web / clent-server. There is not a product on the planet that does now, nor ever has, come even close to catering to the needs of such a diverse range of IT workers and such a wide range of application scenarios. And guess what, I reckon this trend is going to continue to get even more so, as Access continues to move forward and keep pace with the wider IT industry. Is this an advantage? Yes. Is it a disadvantage? Yes. This is a topic that is close to my heart. Unlike some here, I do not have a deep IT background. I came to databases from an entirely different background. If it wasn't for the fact that Access provides something for the newbie, I would never have got into it. It was still a steep learning curve, but it was manageable. I have been full-time Access developer for about 12 years, part-time for a few more years before that. Know what I'm saying? I love this, and *I owe my career* to being able to do something with Access without knowing what I was doing. I don't know whether there are many on this list with this type of story, but it is not uncommon in the Access world in general. Now, that's the trouble... The fact that anyone can have a go, and think they're doing cool stuff, but in reality making a mess, because Access is in Office like Word and Excel and some people therefore assume it is as easy to use, that's the root of this stuff you mentioned about Access being regarded as "just a toy". In many situations, it is a constant battle for Access developers to maintain their dignity and get taken seriously, and for Access to be seen as an appropriate/best tool for jobs which it really is but the reputation is tarnished. That's the reason I built a webpage at http://accesstips.datamanagementsolutions.biz/apps.htm to try and demonstrate that Access does some serious stuff. As for "give us what we need", all I can do is suggest you consider applying to join the Beta for Access 2010. As Martin Reid (he who is primarily responsible for triggering my initial passion for Access 2007/SharePoint integration) said in a recent post here, the major conceptual decisions about the product's direction are well established by the time we get to see it, so wholesale dissing is a waste of time. But I think the Access team will be very keen to hear, and respond to, constructive feedback on the details and implementation. Regards Steve -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tony Septav" <iggy at nanaimo.ark.com> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 2:35 AM > .... I consider Access to be more of > a developer's program than a user's program. Most Office users haven't > got a clue what Access does or how to do it, that is why we see so many > users using EXCEL to perform activities that are really database > specific (and they have reams of worksheets to show for their efforts). > I am saddened when I see strong support for the developers lacking. I > consider Access (kind of hate to be saying it) an excellent development > program. And at times I want to "spit" whenever I hear other developers > saying "Access! that is just a toy". In my many years (and you and I > have been on this list a long long time) I have developed what I > consider to be some pretty powerful applications using Access. I have > looked at what some of the "big boys" have developed and in many cases > they truly lack the vibrancy of an Access application. I can see MS's > point of trying to create a product that all user's will feel > comfortable with (marketing, marketing) but please don't do it at the > expense of your loyal developer's. Just give us what we need. __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4211 (20090702) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4211 (20090702) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.esetnod32.ru