Drew Wutka
DWUTKA at Marlow.com
Thu Jun 2 09:37:43 CDT 2011
Actually, Jim, that's not entirely true. I must admit I haven't read any of his books. But before I posted in the thread, I did do some reading up on Codd. I had read about him and his theories before, but just did a little refresher. He worked for IBM, and IBM didn't implement his 'theories', in fact, they practically ignored them until similar concepts came out from competitors. The point this 'debate' here seems to be missing is that his ideas are THEORIES, not law. The REAL reason that they are not implemented is WHY should they be? What advantage occurs with a system that perfectly implements his laws? Without a commercial reason to implement them. Have at it. Drew -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:50 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] 2 quick questions Charlotte, The only reason they are not implemented is because we lack the systems capable of handling them (performance wise). That still doesn't change the point. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 07:36 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] 2 quick questions But you must admit that his "laws" have never been fully implemented in database designs for that very reason. Charlotte Foust On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Jim Dettman <jimdettman at verizon.net> wrote: > Drew, > > <<His laws really only apply to how a HUMAN sees the data, you > would need a complete paradigm shift in computer technology, in order to > make computers operate the same way humans do.>> > > Sorry, but that's not correct. Relational theory has nothing to do with > how humans see data nor computers. It's irrespective of each. > > It's based on mathematics and set relations. Nothing more and nothing > less. > > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 12:47 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] 2 quick questions > > I AGREE that intelligent keys have a place in the world.... the human > world. > > It is our job, as developers, to create a computer system that works > well on the computer, and INTERFACES well with its users (humans). > > Labels with an intelligent key are fine... they are being read by > humans. Entry screens allowing a human to put in an intelligent key are > fine. The data should NOT be related/stored based on the intelligent > key. > > Let's go with Batch, Lot, Item again. In a XXXX-XXXX-XXXX format. > Someone wants to view all the Items in Lot 3425. You are now doing a > query for %-3425-%... how inefficient is that? Each Batch should have > its own primary key which is unique to each batch, so should each lot, > and each item, and internally, the one to many relationships are > recorded using their primary keys. > > Even if you created a database system that met the 12 rules (rather 13 > rules...LOL) that Codd presented for his relational model, internally, > you would be breaking the laws to deal with the 1's and 0's of a > computer. His laws really only apply to how a HUMAN sees the data, you > would need a complete paradigm shift in computer technology, in order to > make computers operate the same way humans do. > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 10:47 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] 2 quick questions > > The problem (not to do with programming but rather the real world) > concerns > batches. Just as CPUs are made in large stamped volumes, and hence > chopped > into individual chips. The problem devolves into batch not individual > chips, > or eggs for that matter. Much as I love AutoNumbers, I also realize that > Intelligent Keys have a place in the world, and everything depends on > the > discipline. > > A. > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or > hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.