Kevin Jones
kjones at zorvek.com
Thu Feb 28 15:27:44 CST 2013
Arthur,
You sport an interesting perspective after such a short visit.
Since you have made your opinion of the Excel-L forum public I feel compelled to make a few observations to balance out the discussion.
We're a few subscribers short of a million. At last count we have 1,610 subscribers. So, if we are espousing bad information, I wouldn't be too concerned with the overall impact on society in general, or the Excel user community specifically.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that we are risking other's money. Most of us are working on tools and applications for the companies that employ us. We share in the those business's fiduciary responsibility and, in some cases, own those companies.
More specially, how does some confusion about how the VBE transforms an implicitly referenced range object into a Variant data type put at risk millions of dollars? Or imply that the confusion is indicative of inability to distinguish between a range and an array? Might knowledge of financial functions and formulas, and how same are integrated on a worksheet be more indicative of the financial performance and accuracy of any given investment model?
So that others can follow along, here is the original post in that thread of which you gleaned your perspective:
"So in this VBA course I'm taking the following example is given as one way to use an array:
Dim y as Variant
y = Range("E6:F8")
Granted, this is an example and I understand the result is that y is an array even though you haven't declared the variable as one. What I am not clear on is when you would use such code. Also, wouldn't best practice be to (a) declare y as an array with the proper parameters at the beginning of the code and/or (b) at least put some comments before the second line explaining that an array is being declared and the purpose for it?"
It looks like the OP has a pretty good idea that a range is being moved into an array and that the two are not the same but have similar properties. The discussion that followed concerned exactly how to best leverage the Variant data type as a dynamic array, use of Hungarian notation, use of the VBE, best programming practices, and array processing. At one point one individual stated "A range is not an array". Perhaps this is what led you to conclude that most of us thought they were the same. If you read more carefully, you will see that the comment was addressing the idea that the confusion was more about implicit properties and variable types than folks conceptualizing that a range object is the same as an array variable. The author of that comment later posted "Bill, You are correct. You end up with an array. I misread slightly, apologies!"
When did anyone consider replacing SQL Server with Excel or vice versa? This notion is about as absurd as the notion that men and women think the same ;-)
Microsoft has done some incredible work with their business intelligence tools integrated into Excel. Excel has proven to be a powerful data analysis platform with the help of expansive database back ends. The men and women who use, promote, and develop with Excel have proven this over and over - with a great deal of success. I have personally assisted a number of large multi-billion dollar hedge funds with their SQL Server databases and Excel modeling tools. To date they have been rather successful.
I'm mostly at a loss as to what to make of your concern that the Excel-L folks are expressing feelings - and those feelings are further evidence that we are providing misguided and incorrect information to unsuspecting persons responsible for large amounts of money. Perhaps what you witnessed is a healthy and friendly community of Excel users and developers who actually like and appreciate each other beyond the formulas and VBA code.
I have just returned from Microsoft after spending some time with the Excel development team and some other Excel MVPs. We discussed some geeky things, had some beers, and laughed. It was a good experience. You might want to get out someday and see if you can find some friends too.
Instead of running away after a peek and spreading an opinion based on a short and narrow perspective, perhaps a better, more holistic and systemic approach to leaving a positive impact on the community is to stick around and collaborate, especially if you have a different perspective you find valuable and useful.
I'm posting this to both AccessD and Excel-L so that both communities have an opportunity to see what you've been up to, and see an alternative perspective.
Kevin Jones
Microsoft Excel MVP 2006-present
Excel, Access, SQL Server, C#, ASP.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Fuller" <fuller.artful at gmail.com<http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd>>
To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving"
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com<http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd>>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:11 AM
Subject: [AccessD] I was not going to post this
> For some reason I ended up joining a list about Excel
> EXCEL-L at peach.ease.lsoft.com<http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd>), mistaking it for one our our lists. Wow
> was
> I wrong/ These people need more than a lifetime of help. Unfortunately, as
> I age, I don't have that much time.. .
>
> To be fair, it's a user's group not a developer's group, and it does shed
> some light on the differenence.
>
> The scary part is that some of these people fancy themselves as "Quants",
> short for Quantitative Analysts, which means that they are risking the
> hard-earned money that others have made and invested in this or that fund.
> And I am aware of many of their algorithms, having once worked for a
> Bermudian hedge fund, which at least had the sense to use SQL Server
> rather
> then Excel.
>
> This seriously frightens me. These Excel listers, save on or two, don't
> even know that there is a difference between a Range and an Array.
>
> The prospect that these people are playing with millions of dollars of
> money belonging to other people is truly frightening. The up-side is that
> I
> have invested zero dollars in the opinions of these fools; the down-side
> is
> that many several millions have, and I fear for their prospects.
>
> I guess what I am saying is this: if you want to realize what a valuable
> group this one is, just go visit that one for a minute or two. To think
> that these people are waging millions of other people's dollars on their
> "feelings" is ghastly.
>
> Hold onto your wallet; trust no one, especially if they come bearing a
> spreadsheet.Yes, there are tools available to audit spreadsheets, and I
> trust them. But in their absence. do not trust anyone. These people are
> jokers, fools or scammers. Take your pick.
>
> I do not fancy myself as an Excel guru. But once I learned the model, I
> had
> no problem doing some fancy footwork in Excel. Bur rhis goes to way that
> there is a difference between a programmer and a user. The frightening
> part
> is that users equipped with Excel are making decisions involving millions
> of other people's dollars.
>
> --
> Arthur
> Cell: 647.710.1314
>
> Prediction is difficult, especially of the future.
> -- Niels Bohr
> --
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