From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Sat Mar 1 00:12:47 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:12:47 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007> <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> Message-ID: Any way to maximize the ribbon? I'd like to maximize the Print Preview ribbon in the open even of a report. Tia r -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Anita Smith Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 6:49 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Rocky, I've been using a version of this to minimize the ribbon for a while and have not had any problems with it so far. Public Function MinimizeRibbon(Optional ByVal blnMakeMin As Boolean = True) As Boolean Dim blnIsMin As Boolean If Application.CommandBars.Item("Ribbon").Height > 80 Then blnIsMin = False Else blnIsMin = True End If If blnMakeMin = blnIsMin Then Else SendKeys "^{F1}", True End If MinimizeRibbon = True End Function Anita Smith -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Dear List: In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not surprising. But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print preview. How is this done? MTIA Rocky -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From anita at ddisolutions.com.au Sat Mar 1 00:19:15 2014 From: anita at ddisolutions.com.au (Anita Smith) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 06:19:15 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007> <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> Message-ID: <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB125EA@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> Rocky, You could call it like this on open of your report - or just before opening the report: MinimizeRibbon False That should show the ribbon. Anita Smith -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 5:13 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Any way to maximize the ribbon? I'd like to maximize the Print Preview ribbon in the open even of a report. Tia r -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Anita Smith Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 6:49 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Rocky, I've been using a version of this to minimize the ribbon for a while and have not had any problems with it so far. Public Function MinimizeRibbon(Optional ByVal blnMakeMin As Boolean = True) As Boolean Dim blnIsMin As Boolean If Application.CommandBars.Item("Ribbon").Height > 80 Then blnIsMin = False Else blnIsMin = True End If If blnMakeMin = blnIsMin Then Else SendKeys "^{F1}", True End If MinimizeRibbon = True End Function Anita Smith -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Dear List: In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not surprising. But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print preview. How is this done? MTIA Rocky -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 1 02:11:05 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 08:11:05 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007> <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local>, Message-ID: Hi Rocky As I understand it, you cannot rely on SendKeys (don't know why). So I posted this a year ago which has worked fine for me: Public Function EnableRibbon(Optional ByVal varEnable As Variant) As Boolean ' Set or toggle if the Ribbon should be collapsed or enabled. ' ' 2013-02-08. Cactus Data ApS, CPH. ' ' Can be used with AutoExec macro to minimize the Ribbon at launch: ' EnableRibbon(False) ' Height of Ribbon when enabled: 141 ' Height of Ribbon when collapsed: 53 Const clngRibbonHeight As Long = 97 Const cstrRibbonName As String = "Ribbon" Dim booEnabled As Boolean ' Continue on error and toggle the collapsing of the Ribbon. On Error Resume Next ' Make the Ribbon visible as a hidden ribbon cannot be controlled. DoCmd.ShowToolbar cstrRibbonName, acToolbarYes ' Measure if the Ribbon is collapsed or enabled. booEnabled = (Application.CommandBars(cstrRibbonName).Height > clngRibbonHeight) If IsMissing(varEnable) Or (booEnabled Xor CBool(varEnable)) Then ' Toggle the collapsing of the Ribbon. CommandBars.ExecuteMso "MinimizeRibbon" booEnabled = Not booEnabled End If ' Return the current state of the Ribbon. EnableRibbon = booEnabled End Function /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Rocky Smolin Sendt: 1. marts 2014 07:12 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Any way to maximize the ribbon? I'd like to maximize the Print Preview ribbon in the open even of a report. Tia r From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sat Mar 1 03:40:20 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 19:40:20 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007>, <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local>, Message-ID: <5311AB04.27998.7A3E88@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Check the archives 8 and 9 feb 2013 where this was discussed under the subject "A2012 Ribbon collapse (not hide) from code" ( Despite it's name, the following command doesn't Minimze per se, it toggles the Minimized state) So to maximize the ribbon on open if it is minimized, minimize it on close if it is maximized: Private Sub Report_Load() If CommandBars.GetPressedMso("MinimizeRibbon") Then CommandBars.ExecuteMso "MinimizeRibbon" End If End Sub Private Sub Report_Close() If Not CommandBars.GetPressedMso("MinimizeRibbon") Then CommandBars.ExecuteMso "MinimizeRibbon" End If End Sub On 28 Feb 2014 at 22:12, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Any way to maximize the ribbon? I'd like to maximize the Print > Preview ribbon in the open even of a report. > > Tia > > r > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Anita Smith > Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 6:49 PM To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print > preview ribbon > > Rocky, > I've been using a version of this to minimize the ribbon for a while > and have not had any problems with it so far. > > Public Function MinimizeRibbon(Optional ByVal blnMakeMin As Boolean = > True) As Boolean Dim blnIsMin As Boolean > > If Application.CommandBars.Item("Ribbon").Height > 80 Then > blnIsMin = False > Else > blnIsMin = True > End If > If blnMakeMin = blnIsMin Then > Else > SendKeys "^{F1}", True > End If > MinimizeRibbon = True > End Function > > Anita Smith > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky > Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers > discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print > preview ribbon > > Dear List: > > In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just > the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well > but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not > surprising. > > But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at > the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print > preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. > > But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the > ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print > preview. > > How is this done? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 06:03:42 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 07:03:42 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase In-Reply-To: <181013799.4004420.1393646672565.JavaMail.root@cds002> References: <181013799.4004420.1393646672565.JavaMail.root@cds002> Message-ID: <5311CC9E.7040203@gmail.com> Jim, I think that what we really have is a very bi-polar situation where a huge mass of people, billions of people, work all day at something. They might want to spend all day playing on their tablet but can't really, they have to stock store shelves, run cash registers, wait tables, drive buses and so forth. After work, yep they jump on their entertainment of choice, whether that may be TV, streaming TV, surfing the internet or walking the dog. The companies that hire the masses do NOT want their employees spending all day on their tablets (or work computers) surfing the internet, or Facebook, they want them doing their jobs. They do NOT want their work computers (where one is needed) looking and feeling like an entertainment console. They do NOT want their employees being sucked off into Facebook, twitter, or Newegg advertisements because they were researching a new computer build last night at home. They want their employees doing their job. Microsoft, via Windows and the Office package, has been at the very core of the office environment since day one. Microsoft is the company that it is, 98%, BECAUSE of this focus and environment. However Microsoft has watched the smartphone craze, and then the tablet craze, and then the Phablet craze and notice that they missed the boat with the current Windows, which of course they did. So they threw the baby out with the bathwater and invented Windows 8 which is VERY MUCH a shell over Windows 7, in order to turn Windows into a tablet / phone friendly OS. That is not a bad thing all by itself, Microsoft needed to do this, BUT... But Windows 8 fanbois opinions to the contrary, it is DECIDEDLY work unfriendly. As a working OS, companies do not want ANYTHING that diverts the attention of the worker away from their Job, and Windows 8, BY DESIGN, is about doing just that. Let me rephrase that, it is not intentionally about that, it is just about recreation instead of about work. The very things that are required for a good recreation interface get in the way of getting work done. This is not ME saying this (though I agree, from admittedly limited experience), it is millions upon millions upon HUNDREDS of millions of workers and managers and IT folks saying this. So Microsoft and their Windows 8 fanbois say "well just be patient, spend some time learning it, download this app and that app..." But Business is NOT about working around the limitations of their basic tools IMPOSED on them by the creator of those tools in order that the creator of those tools can make money from a segment of the market that is the antithesis of what Business does. Business should not HAVE to spend hours of every employee's time, and download tons of crap, simply to get their employees back to work, so that MS can finally get a slice of the recreation OS market. It is decidedly NOT Business' problem!!! It is not their problem until MS mangles the BUSINESS Windows interface to make it recreation friendly and shoves it down Business throat. What exactly does MS expect business to do when faced with this? The very fact that Windows 8 is by design entertainment focused is reason enough, all by itself, for business to refuse to install it on work machines. What exactly does MS expect Business to do? I can tell you what I expect business to do. Refuse to install it. That is precisely what I would do if I was the manager of the business. A Hooka pipe is designed, from the ground up, for recreational pursuits. There is not a person reading this thread who would seriously propose that Businesses around the world should be required to install on in their companies. Windows 8 interface was designed, from the ground up, for recreational purposes. Let's call a spade a spade and stop dancing around the subject. Business does not want it, and will NEVER want it, and for very good reasons. MS needs to continue to market Windows 8 to the recreation market and focus on getting it's business OS (Windows 7) back on track and continuing to be sold to the millions of business PCs that will continue to be sold. The office PC is NOT going away anytime soon. And I don't see business backing down about installing an entertainment console on their work computers. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 2/28/2014 11:04 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > > My belief is that the major companies are the entities that are really trying to kill off the PC. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 06:25:53 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 07:25:53 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys Message-ID: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> This week I ordered parts for a gaming machine for my 13 year old son. Newegg rocks. He has a decidedly old PC that I built from parts scavenged from old server parts. Long in the tooth describes it perfectly. So last night, I took my son and Brian (his buddy who spends 1/2 his life at my house) upstairs to start building this PC. The boys did each and every part of the build themselves. We did every step twice, every screw, the motherboard standoffs, motherboard being screwed into place, the memory dimms put in, video card inserted and screwed down, power supply screwed in place and all the leads connected etc. Disk drive and DVD rom drive installed and power / SATA cables installed. The ONLY thing that I did was insert the processor chip into the socket and install the heat sink fan for that while they watched. So my boys built Robbie's computer last night. Turned it on and it came right up. Installed the new OEM Windows 7 disk and did the install. I could have used Windows 8 for that PC, it would have worked just fine, but I just didn't want to have to spend the time and effort supporting a lonely Windows 8 island in a sea of existing Windows 7 PCs around it. There is no "must have" reason to put it on this new machine. And of course no touch screen anyway. Today the boys will personally run Windows update the bajillion times required, download Avast Free and Threatfire, install the games etc. We will install the Office 7 suite, PDF reader, Chrome and Firefox and all that. Then we get to try and figure out whether their game state history for the various games they play are local or on the internet and if local, where and can it be migrated from the old machine to the new. New anything is disruptive, no doubt about that. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From garykjos at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 07:11:31 2014 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 07:11:31 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys In-Reply-To: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> References: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing John. Glad you let them do all the work. They got a valuable educational experience for sure. GK On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 6:25 AM, John W Colby wrote: > This week I ordered parts for a gaming machine for my 13 year old son. > Newegg rocks. He has a decidedly old PC that I built from parts scavenged > from old server parts. Long in the tooth describes it perfectly. > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 07:16:46 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:16:46 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... Message-ID: <5311DDBE.7060700@gmail.com> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57618211-75/oops-windows-xp-gains-in-january-but-so-does-windows-8.1/ -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Sat Mar 1 09:10:39 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 07:10:39 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007><0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local>, Message-ID: I'll give that a shot. If I change cstrRibbonName to "Print Preview" will that show the print preview ribbon then on opening the report in Preview? Thanks R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:11 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Hi Rocky As I understand it, you cannot rely on SendKeys (don't know why). So I posted this a year ago which has worked fine for me: Public Function EnableRibbon(Optional ByVal varEnable As Variant) As Boolean ' Set or toggle if the Ribbon should be collapsed or enabled. ' ' 2013-02-08. Cactus Data ApS, CPH. ' ' Can be used with AutoExec macro to minimize the Ribbon at launch: ' EnableRibbon(False) ' Height of Ribbon when enabled: 141 ' Height of Ribbon when collapsed: 53 Const clngRibbonHeight As Long = 97 Const cstrRibbonName As String = "Ribbon" Dim booEnabled As Boolean ' Continue on error and toggle the collapsing of the Ribbon. On Error Resume Next ' Make the Ribbon visible as a hidden ribbon cannot be controlled. DoCmd.ShowToolbar cstrRibbonName, acToolbarYes ' Measure if the Ribbon is collapsed or enabled. booEnabled = (Application.CommandBars(cstrRibbonName).Height > clngRibbonHeight) If IsMissing(varEnable) Or (booEnabled Xor CBool(varEnable)) Then ' Toggle the collapsing of the Ribbon. CommandBars.ExecuteMso "MinimizeRibbon" booEnabled = Not booEnabled End If ' Return the current state of the Ribbon. EnableRibbon = booEnabled End Function /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Rocky Smolin Sendt: 1. marts 2014 07:12 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Any way to maximize the ribbon? I'd like to maximize the Print Preview ribbon in the open even of a report. Tia r -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From df.waters at comcast.net Sat Mar 1 10:15:36 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:15:36 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007> <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001301cf3569$7b3039b0$7190ad10$@comcast.net> Hi Rocky, This is what I've been doing since Access 2007 was released. Whenever I open a report my code looks like this: '------------------------------------ DoCmd.OpenReport "rptReportName", acViewPreview DoCmd.Maximize ' -- This maximizes the entire access window, every time, so the report is readable. ' It also turned out that I needed to maximize here instead of in the Report_Open event, ' but I don't remember exactly why. '------------------------------------ In code on every report I have these two procedures: '------------------------------------ Private Sub Report_Open(Cancel As Integer) Call DisplayRibbon(True) '-- See Below End Sub Private Sub Report_Close() Call DisplayRibbon(False) '-- See Below DoCmd.Restore '-- This restores the entire access screen. End Sub '------------------------------------ This is the procedure which shows or hides the ribbon. It is in a public module. '------------------------------------ Public Sub DisplayRibbon(blnDisplayRibbon As Boolean) If SysCmd(acSysCmdAccessVer) >= 12 Then '-- Of course, ribbons only exist in Access 2007+ If blnDisplayRibbon = True Then DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarYes '-- When the report opens, print preview is the ribbon which is automatically displayed. Else DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarNo End If End If End Sub '------------------------------------ Hope this helps! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Dear List: In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not surprising. But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print preview. How is this done? MTIA Rocky -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 1 10:58:27 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 09:58:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase In-Reply-To: <5311CC9E.7040203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1003923817.4260090.1393693107661.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi John: I can not generally disagree with anything you have said. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, 1 March, 2014 4:03:42 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase Jim, I think that what we really have is a very bi-polar situation where a huge mass of people, billions of people, work all day at something. They might want to spend all day playing on their tablet but can't really, they have to stock store shelves, run cash registers, wait tables, drive buses and so forth. After work, yep they jump on their entertainment of choice, whether that may be TV, streaming TV, surfing the internet or walking the dog. The companies that hire the masses do NOT want their employees spending all day on their tablets (or work computers) surfing the internet, or Facebook, they want them doing their jobs. They do NOT want their work computers (where one is needed) looking and feeling like an entertainment console. They do NOT want their employees being sucked off into Facebook, twitter, or Newegg advertisements because they were researching a new computer build last night at home. They want their employees doing their job. Microsoft, via Windows and the Office package, has been at the very core of the office environment since day one. Microsoft is the company that it is, 98%, BECAUSE of this focus and environment. However Microsoft has watched the smartphone craze, and then the tablet craze, and then the Phablet craze and notice that they missed the boat with the current Windows, which of course they did. So they threw the baby out with the bathwater and invented Windows 8 which is VERY MUCH a shell over Windows 7, in order to turn Windows into a tablet / phone friendly OS. That is not a bad thing all by itself, Microsoft needed to do this, BUT... But Windows 8 fanbois opinions to the contrary, it is DECIDEDLY work unfriendly. As a working OS, companies do not want ANYTHING that diverts the attention of the worker away from their Job, and Windows 8, BY DESIGN, is about doing just that. Let me rephrase that, it is not intentionally about that, it is just about recreation instead of about work. The very things that are required for a good recreation interface get in the way of getting work done. This is not ME saying this (though I agree, from admittedly limited experience), it is millions upon millions upon HUNDREDS of millions of workers and managers and IT folks saying this. So Microsoft and their Windows 8 fanbois say "well just be patient, spend some time learning it, download this app and that app..." But Business is NOT about working around the limitations of their basic tools IMPOSED on them by the creator of those tools in order that the creator of those tools can make money from a segment of the market that is the antithesis of what Business does. Business should not HAVE to spend hours of every employee's time, and download tons of crap, simply to get their employees back to work, so that MS can finally get a slice of the recreation OS market. It is decidedly NOT Business' problem!!! It is not their problem until MS mangles the BUSINESS Windows interface to make it recreation friendly and shoves it down Business throat. What exactly does MS expect business to do when faced with this? The very fact that Windows 8 is by design entertainment focused is reason enough, all by itself, for business to refuse to install it on work machines. What exactly does MS expect Business to do? I can tell you what I expect business to do. Refuse to install it. That is precisely what I would do if I was the manager of the business. A Hooka pipe is designed, from the ground up, for recreational pursuits. There is not a person reading this thread who would seriously propose that Businesses around the world should be required to install on in their companies. Windows 8 interface was designed, from the ground up, for recreational purposes. Let's call a spade a spade and stop dancing around the subject. Business does not want it, and will NEVER want it, and for very good reasons. MS needs to continue to market Windows 8 to the recreation market and focus on getting it's business OS (Windows 7) back on track and continuing to be sold to the millions of business PCs that will continue to be sold. The office PC is NOT going away anytime soon. And I don't see business backing down about installing an entertainment console on their work computers. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 2/28/2014 11:04 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > > My belief is that the major companies are the entities that are really trying to kill off the PC. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 1 11:05:03 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:05:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys In-Reply-To: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2089276447.4264816.1393693503941.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi John: You are dooming these poor boys to follow in the path of geekdom. But they still can be saved...you will know you have lost them when they install Linux. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, 1 March, 2014 4:25:53 AM Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys This week I ordered parts for a gaming machine for my 13 year old son. Newegg rocks. He has a decidedly old PC that I built from parts scavenged from old server parts. Long in the tooth describes it perfectly. So last night, I took my son and Brian (his buddy who spends 1/2 his life at my house) upstairs to start building this PC. The boys did each and every part of the build themselves. We did every step twice, every screw, the motherboard standoffs, motherboard being screwed into place, the memory dimms put in, video card inserted and screwed down, power supply screwed in place and all the leads connected etc. Disk drive and DVD rom drive installed and power / SATA cables installed. The ONLY thing that I did was insert the processor chip into the socket and install the heat sink fan for that while they watched. So my boys built Robbie's computer last night. Turned it on and it came right up. Installed the new OEM Windows 7 disk and did the install. I could have used Windows 8 for that PC, it would have worked just fine, but I just didn't want to have to spend the time and effort supporting a lonely Windows 8 island in a sea of existing Windows 7 PCs around it. There is no "must have" reason to put it on this new machine. And of course no touch screen anyway. Today the boys will personally run Windows update the bajillion times required, download Avast Free and Threatfire, install the games etc. We will install the Office 7 suite, PDF reader, Chrome and Firefox and all that. Then we get to try and figure out whether their game state history for the various games they play are local or on the internet and if local, where and can it be migrated from the old machine to the new. New anything is disruptive, no doubt about that. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 1 11:26:51 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:26:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: <5311DDBE.7060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2147119628.4277237.1393694811889.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi John: To the best of my memory from another article that might put some more light on Windows 8. The amount of money Microsoft made selling Windows 8.x was around 186 million but the cost to actually sell it cost around 200 million. If Windows 8 was not highly advertised everywhere and put on virtually every PC and laptop by default, I truly wonder how many would have sold...tied with Linux? It should also be noted that the Chinese government asked Microsoft to extend their support for XP...may I suggest that it would probably be a bad business decision to simply ignore that request. As you have noted in a previous post, a friend, who is still working in the business, according to him, not one bank, financial institution or investment firm is moving to Windows 8.x...ever. The hope is for Windows 9. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, 1 March, 2014 5:16:46 AM Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57618211-75/oops-windows-xp-gains-in-january-but-so-does-windows-8.1/ -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 12:02:37 2014 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:02:37 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: <2147119628.4277237.1393694811889.JavaMail.root@cds002> References: <5311DDBE.7060700@gmail.com> <2147119628.4277237.1393694811889.JavaMail.root@cds002> Message-ID: Jim and John, Why would any large firm such as an international bank invest in any version of Windows? This I simply cannot fathom. There are many versions of Linux that are available free; couple that with OfficeLibre and you've covered about 90% of the user base. If you want custom apps written originally for Office (e.g. Acess or Word etc.), then install Wine. Frankly, I have lost interest in, and no longer can see a business case for, any Windows installation, regardless of which version. AFAICS, there is no reason for this OS to live, other than gravitational pull. Personally, I have moved to Ubuntu and Oracle VirtualBox with an instance of Office 2007 installed there, in case something crops up that I can't handle otherwise. Those instances grow fewer and fewer as each day passes. Arthur From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Mar 1 12:23:33 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:23:33 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys In-Reply-To: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> References: <5311D1D1.6050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: Then there is the backup & recovery practice as well as a sandbox system? For my lot I had the drive split into 2 partitions, copied the OS partition to the second one, then used a caddy drive that I cloned from the installed one Both drives are bootable and the system is set so the caddy is the first drive to be looked at for boot That means with the caddy drive in the locked cupboard the system boots from their 'play' OS, with the option to boot from the (before the OS was wrecked) copy. If both copies of the OS are got-at, then it's the recovery drive out of the cupboard and into the caddy boot the OS and copy the 2nd partition onto the 2nd partition of the play drive, recover data from the normal OS partition onto the restored partition and copy that back over the usually used OS. JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:26 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Fun with the boys This week I ordered parts for a gaming machine for my 13 year old son. Newegg rocks. He has a decidedly old PC that I built from parts scavenged from old server parts. Long in the tooth describes it perfectly. So last night, I took my son and Brian (his buddy who spends 1/2 his life at my house) upstairs to start building this PC. The boys did each and every part of the build themselves. We did every step twice, every screw, the motherboard standoffs, motherboard being screwed into place, the memory dimms put in, video card inserted and screwed down, power supply screwed in place and all the leads connected etc. Disk drive and DVD rom drive installed and power / SATA cables installed. The ONLY thing that I did was insert the processor chip into the socket and install the heat sink fan for that while they watched. So my boys built Robbie's computer last night. Turned it on and it came right up. Installed the new OEM Windows 7 disk and did the install. I could have used Windows 8 for that PC, it would have worked just fine, but I just didn't want to have to spend the time and effort supporting a lonely Windows 8 island in a sea of existing Windows 7 PCs around it. There is no "must have" reason to put it on this new machine. And of course no touch screen anyway. Today the boys will personally run Windows update the bajillion times required, download Avast Free and Threatfire, install the games etc. We will install the Office 7 suite, PDF reader, Chrome and Firefox and all that. Then we get to try and figure out whether their game state history for the various games they play are local or on the internet and if local, where and can it be migrated from the old machine to the new. New anything is disruptive, no doubt about that. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john.k.serrano at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 12:36:03 2014 From: john.k.serrano at gmail.com (John Serrano) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:36:03 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Message-ID: Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano From fuller.artful at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 13:27:10 2014 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 14:27:10 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IMO, you rolled several questions into one, here. First thing to consider is whether you are going to perform actual work in each month of your alleged billable time. Conversely, consider this arrangement from the client's point of view; two months go by and you haven't lifted a finger, but still request payment, and for what? Promising not to die and leave said client dangling? Alternatively, said client will demand this or that trivial fix (move this textbox a few millimeters to the left, and enhance this report). Next question is, can you re-sell said app to other clients, or is it a one-off? In the former case, then a monthly fee makes economic sense; in the latter case, every embellishment/enhancement is billable separately, and later for the monthly payment. In the case of repeat sales, you might wish to talk to Rocky Smolin, whose product EZ-ERP he managed to sell to somebody and then revert to his vocation as a jazz musician. I'm thinking of following in his footsteps, but sadly there are few opportunites in said community for tabla players, and even if there were some, although I have taken lessons from three of the best tabla players in the world (Zakir Hussain, Swapan Chaudhuri and Ritesh Das), my skills are sadly lacking. Such is life. O well. A. On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:36 PM, John Serrano wrote: > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe > a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US > of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Arthur From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Sat Mar 1 13:40:14 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 11:40:14 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I always went on straight clock time. Simple. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:36 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john.k.serrano at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 13:59:28 2014 From: john.k.serrano at gmail.com (John Serrano) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 14:59:28 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Art and Rocky, you guys have definitely given me insight! On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > IMO, you rolled several questions into one, here. First thing to consider > is whether you are going to perform actual work in each month of your > alleged billable time. Conversely, consider this arrangement from the > client's point of view; two months go by and you haven't lifted a finger, > but still request payment, and for what? Promising not to die and leave > said client dangling? Alternatively, said client will demand this or that > trivial fix (move this textbox a few millimeters to the left, and enhance > this report). > > Next question is, can you re-sell said app to other clients, or is it a > one-off? In the former case, then a monthly fee makes economic sense; in > the latter case, every embellishment/enhancement is billable separately, > and later for the monthly payment. > > In the case of repeat sales, you might wish to talk to Rocky Smolin, whose > product EZ-ERP he managed to sell to somebody and then revert to his > vocation as a jazz musician. I'm thinking of following in his footsteps, > but sadly there are few opportunites in said community for tabla players, > and even if there were some, although I have taken lessons from three of > the best tabla players in the world (Zakir Hussain, Swapan Chaudhuri and > Ritesh Das), my skills are sadly lacking. Such is life. O well. > > A. > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:36 PM, John Serrano >wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe > > a maintenance fee? > > > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US > > of A. > > PA to be exact... > > > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > > -- > > John Serrano > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Arthur > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Sat Mar 1 14:15:01 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 12:15:01 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5172E00CBE264CA5A29A0F498C4AD0CB@HAL9007> Arthur: OT but perhaps the moderator will forgive as it is Shabbos :) - IME there are musicians who want to play together for every level of musician. Whatever your skill level there ARE others at your level and you can all improve your chops together. When I moved from electric to string bass two years ago I was a terrible hack. Now I can gig regularly and know enough how to cover up my hackiness. :) Is there something in your town like this: http://www.meetup.com/San-Diego-Jazz-Collective/ for Indian music players? If not, start one on Meetup and you'll have your group before you know it. I started playing with the collective when I switched to upright, got to play with lots of people of different levels, and everybody gets a chance to play, to solo, and improve. Wonderful application of social media technology. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 11:27 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? IMO, you rolled several questions into one, here. First thing to consider is whether you are going to perform actual work in each month of your alleged billable time. Conversely, consider this arrangement from the client's point of view; two months go by and you haven't lifted a finger, but still request payment, and for what? Promising not to die and leave said client dangling? Alternatively, said client will demand this or that trivial fix (move this textbox a few millimeters to the left, and enhance this report). Next question is, can you re-sell said app to other clients, or is it a one-off? In the former case, then a monthly fee makes economic sense; in the latter case, every embellishment/enhancement is billable separately, and later for the monthly payment. In the case of repeat sales, you might wish to talk to Rocky Smolin, whose product EZ-ERP he managed to sell to somebody and then revert to his vocation as a jazz musician. I'm thinking of following in his footsteps, but sadly there are few opportunites in said community for tabla players, and even if there were some, although I have taken lessons from three of the best tabla players in the world (Zakir Hussain, Swapan Chaudhuri and Ritesh Das), my skills are sadly lacking. Such is life. O well. A. On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:36 PM, John Serrano wrote: > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > US of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Arthur -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Mar 1 14:19:51 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 20:19:51 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have a call-out charge including 2 hours work and travel each way. That 2 hours could be sitting with the client discussing of what is wanted - to be documented and a specification/change set agreed, or maybe doing it as a prototyping effort. Depending on the client - maybe charge enough to cover a 1 hour 'lunch' for 2 No alcohol, Reasonable food - Chinese, Italian, maybe fish, decent steak, or burger. And an hourly rate for tasks that take more than the couple of hours. Do you provide telephone/working-from-home interactive type support - maybe a couple of hours included in a basic annual support package. And detail an uplift to charges in the agreement - maybe the larger of 3% or RPI. Also consider who owns the code and facility, do you license it to them, or can they license it to others? If they sell it on, then who does maintenance? What warrantee is provided with the facility - PI - for how many years, from initial licence, or from maintenance, or upgrade? And remember you will have to get that PI - maybe 10 years insurance is a large up-front commitment for a single maintenance invoice? What will happen to ownership/maintenance if you die, or are unable to continue supporting the facility? Include copyright in the code and in the generated executable. May seem like a lot to document - but documenting it will firstly present your services as being done in a professional 'trading' manner, and hopefully avoid ill feeling later when such points start to concern you, or the client's management. Do include a relatively unequal termination option - you give a years notice, they give a month - looks good to management if they can get out of a commitment fast, but you can't - practicality is another matter May also be worth a short set of example costs for work you have done, so that they can get someone else to quote for that work. Remembering that you know the facility and code - the 3rd party will have to include costs to learn the facility - fun for them if the code is yours and copyrighted. If the 3rd party quote is much less than yours, then step back and let the client see the difference in the service and results. JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 7:40 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? I always went on straight clock time. Simple. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 10:36 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sat Mar 1 16:13:02 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 08:13:02 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: <001301cf3569$7b3039b0$7190ad10$@comcast.net> References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007>, <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local>, <001301cf3569$7b3039b0$7190ad10$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <53125B6E.1915.32B5D7B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Hi Dan. your code /hides the ribbon. That is different to minimizing/maximizing it when it is not hidden. -- Stuart On 1 Mar 2014 at 10:15, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Rocky, > > This is what I've been doing since Access 2007 was released. > > Whenever I open a report my code looks like this: > > '------------------------------------ > DoCmd.OpenReport "rptReportName", acViewPreview > DoCmd.Maximize ' -- This maximizes the entire access > window, > every time, so the report is readable. > ' It also turned out that I > needed to maximize here instead of in the Report_Open event, > ' but I don't remember > exactly why. > '------------------------------------ > > In code on every report I have these two procedures: > > '------------------------------------ > Private Sub Report_Open(Cancel As Integer) > > Call DisplayRibbon(True) '-- See Below > > End Sub > > Private Sub Report_Close() > > Call DisplayRibbon(False) '-- See Below > DoCmd.Restore '-- This restores the entire access > screen. > > End Sub > '------------------------------------ > > This is the procedure which shows or hides the ribbon. It is in a > public module. > > '------------------------------------ > Public Sub DisplayRibbon(blnDisplayRibbon As Boolean) > > If SysCmd(acSysCmdAccessVer) >= 12 Then '-- Of course, > ribbons > only exist in Access 2007+ > > If blnDisplayRibbon = True Then > DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarYes '-- > When the > report opens, print preview is the ribbon which is automatically > displayed. > Else > DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarNo > End If > > End If > > End Sub > '------------------------------------ > > Hope this helps! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky > Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers > discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print > preview ribbon > > Dear List: > > In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just > the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well > but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not > surprising. > > But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at > the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print > preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. > > But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the > ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print > preview. > > How is this done? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sat Mar 1 16:13:18 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 08:13:18 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53125B7E.6196.32B9C3F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> A lot of commercial software sells with a licence/maintenance rate of aroudn 20% of the purchase price. On 1 Mar 2014 at 13:36, John Serrano wrote: > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about > "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing > with them maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you > do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of > A. PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From df.waters at comcast.net Sat Mar 1 16:53:10 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:53:10 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon In-Reply-To: <53125B6E.1915.32B5D7B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <290110C380794F6DBE5534799FE2318E@HAL9007>, <0B4AA61FDEF597449F7D28C41E786D961BB12583@DDI-DC1.DDI.local>, <001301cf3569$7b3039b0$7190ad10$@comcast.net> <53125B6E.1915.32B5D7B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <000001cf35a1$056e3870$104aa950$@comcast.net> Hi Stuart, You're right - I never heard of minimizing a ribbon. But I tried it and -- Hey! It works. My app is locked down. The only time a ribbon displays is when a report is showing - so no one has asked me about minimizing. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 4:13 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Show the print preview ribbon Hi Dan. your code /hides the ribbon. That is different to minimizing/maximizing it when it is not hidden. -- Stuart On 1 Mar 2014 at 10:15, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Rocky, > > This is what I've been doing since Access 2007 was released. > > Whenever I open a report my code looks like this: > > '------------------------------------ > DoCmd.OpenReport "rptReportName", acViewPreview > DoCmd.Maximize ' -- This maximizes the entire access > window, > every time, so the report is readable. > ' It also turned out that I > needed to maximize here instead of in the Report_Open event, > ' but I don't remember > exactly why. > '------------------------------------ > > In code on every report I have these two procedures: > > '------------------------------------ > Private Sub Report_Open(Cancel As Integer) > > Call DisplayRibbon(True) '-- See Below > > End Sub > > Private Sub Report_Close() > > Call DisplayRibbon(False) '-- See Below > DoCmd.Restore '-- This restores the entire access > screen. > > End Sub > '------------------------------------ > > This is the procedure which shows or hides the ribbon. It is in a > public module. > > '------------------------------------ > Public Sub DisplayRibbon(blnDisplayRibbon As Boolean) > > If SysCmd(acSysCmdAccessVer) >= 12 Then '-- Of course, > ribbons > only exist in Access 2007+ > > If blnDisplayRibbon = True Then > DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarYes '-- > When the > report opens, print preview is the ribbon which is automatically > displayed. > Else > DoCmd.ShowToolbar "Ribbon", acToolbarNo > End If > > End If > > End Sub > '------------------------------------ > > Hope this helps! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky > Smolin Sent: Saturday, 1 March 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers > discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Show the print > preview ribbon > > Dear List: > > In an mdb I have a custom toolbar for print previews which had just > the close button and the magnifying glass. In 2003 this works well > but in 2007, 10 and 13 the custom toolbar does not show up. Not > surprising. > > But in 2010 - my client's version - there is a print preview button at > the top when you're in print preview, and when you click it, the print > preview ribbon is displayed with the CLOSE in red. Very good. > > But the client does not want to click Print Preview to open the > ribbon. He wants the ribbon displayed when the report opens in print > preview. > > How is this done? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From df.waters at comcast.net Sat Mar 1 16:55:10 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:55:10 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101cf35a1$4cf8e320$e6eaa960$@comcast.net> Hi John, Maintenance fees are for stuff you do to make minor (or sometimes major) stuff to keep it running as expected. Generally, if you are not charging for maintenance then you sold it and you walked away leaving it in the hands of their developers. Maintenance would typically be about 15% of what the selling price was, per year. If you add more to the app later then the maintenance fee goes up. If the app becomes mature at some point and needs little work then it might make sense to drop the rate down. If you are doing improvements that they request then charge by the hour. Except for the most trivial changes, give them a fixed price quote (be sure you get this right or you could get hurt). Don't do 'estimate' or 'not to exceed' quotes - they'll be making a decision based on the wrong information, and you could work lots of hours for no pay. And - every charge has a minimum time just for you to install the updated files. I got a suggestion once to negotiate a retainer over a period of a year or so for improvement work. They would pay you an upfront amount for X hours of work at a reduced rate. If they don't use it all within a year it's yours - no refunds (but call them at the beginning of the last quarter to let them know what's left). You get some money, and they don't have to get authorization every time they want some small improvement. I've never done this but it could be a win-win. Also, take a hard look at the job. If the scope of the job could increase, then provide a quote only for what you do know you'll be doing. If they want to go beyond that then you can give a subsequent quote. Be sure to not get into a situation where you don't know where they are going but they want an estimate to cover everything. I have a basic spreadsheet template I made up to help me list what I'm doing to each object and how long it will take. This helps me to be more accurate. If I end up within 20% - 30% then I figure I did pretty well. Good Luck! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john.k.serrano at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 17:15:56 2014 From: john.k.serrano at gmail.com (John Serrano) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:15:56 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: <000101cf35a1$4cf8e320$e6eaa960$@comcast.net> References: <000101cf35a1$4cf8e320$e6eaa960$@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dan, thanks for the advice! Sounds like some experience of life has been through the ringer here... Nevertheless, you bring up a good point. where you said leave the app in the hands of their "developers" they don't have any, and seem to think every problem they encounter is something that should be corrected for free. For example, they had a text file they downloaded incorrectly and tried to import the file into the application and got an error and instead reviewing text file the quick answer was "well the program is not working correctly" Only after calling me and I noticed the file format was not the same. This is what has prompted my question, maintenance fee, however I like how you placed this, developed and walk away from it. On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Maintenance fees are for stuff you do to make minor (or sometimes major) > stuff to keep it running as expected. Generally, if you are not charging > for maintenance then you sold it and you walked away leaving it in the > hands > of their developers. Maintenance would typically be about 15% of what the > selling price was, per year. If you add more to the app later then the > maintenance fee goes up. If the app becomes mature at some point and needs > little work then it might make sense to drop the rate down. > > If you are doing improvements that they request then charge by the hour. > Except for the most trivial changes, give them a fixed price quote (be sure > you get this right or you could get hurt). Don't do 'estimate' or 'not to > exceed' quotes - they'll be making a decision based on the wrong > information, and you could work lots of hours for no pay. And - every > charge has a minimum time just for you to install the updated files. > > I got a suggestion once to negotiate a retainer over a period of a year or > so for improvement work. They would pay you an upfront amount for X hours > of work at a reduced rate. If they don't use it all within a year it's > yours - no refunds (but call them at the beginning of the last quarter to > let them know what's left). You get some money, and they don't have to get > authorization every time they want some small improvement. I've never done > this but it could be a win-win. > > Also, take a hard look at the job. If the scope of the job could increase, > then provide a quote only for what you do know you'll be doing. If they > want to go beyond that then you can give a subsequent quote. Be sure to > not > get into a situation where you don't know where they are going but they > want > an estimate to cover everything. > > I have a basic spreadsheet template I made up to help me list what I'm > doing > to each object and how long it will take. This helps me to be more > accurate. If I end up within 20% - 30% then I figure I did pretty well. > > Good Luck! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe > a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US > of > A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sat Mar 1 17:49:56 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 09:49:56 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: , <000101cf35a1$4cf8e320$e6eaa960$@comcast.net>, Message-ID: <53127224.4984.3841640@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I love those sort of problems. I go on site, determine the problem and bill them for my time (minimum one hour) :-) On 1 Mar 2014 at 18:15, John Serrano wrote: > Dan, thanks for the advice! > Sounds like some experience of life has been through the ringer > here... > > Nevertheless, you bring up a good point. where you said leave the app > in the hands of their "developers" they don't have any, and seem to > think every problem they encounter is something that should be > corrected for free. > > For example, they had a text file they downloaded incorrectly and > tried to import the file into the application and got an error and > instead reviewing text file the quick answer was "well the program is > not working correctly" Only after calling me and I noticed the file > format was not the same. > > This is what has prompted my question, maintenance fee, however I like > how you placed this, developed and walk away from it. > > > > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Dan Waters > wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > Maintenance fees are for stuff you do to make minor (or sometimes > > major) stuff to keep it running as expected. Generally, if you are > > not charging for maintenance then you sold it and you walked away > > leaving it in the hands of their developers. Maintenance would > > typically be about 15% of what the selling price was, per year. If > > you add more to the app later then the maintenance fee goes up. If > > the app becomes mature at some point and needs little work then it > > might make sense to drop the rate down. > > > > If you are doing improvements that they request then charge by the > > hour. Except for the most trivial changes, give them a fixed price > > quote (be sure you get this right or you could get hurt). Don't do > > 'estimate' or 'not to exceed' quotes - they'll be making a decision > > based on the wrong information, and you could work lots of hours for > > no pay. And - every charge has a minimum time just for you to > > install the updated files. > > > > I got a suggestion once to negotiate a retainer over a period of a > > year or so for improvement work. They would pay you an upfront > > amount for X hours of work at a reduced rate. If they don't use it > > all within a year it's yours - no refunds (but call them at the > > beginning of the last quarter to let them know what's left). You > > get some money, and they don't have to get authorization every time > > they want some small improvement. I've never done this but it could > > be a win-win. > > > > Also, take a hard look at the job. If the scope of the job could > > increase, then provide a quote only for what you do know you'll be > > doing. If they want to go beyond that then you can give a > > subsequent quote. Be sure to not get into a situation where you > > don't know where they are going but they want an estimate to cover > > everything. > > > > I have a basic spreadsheet template I made up to help me list what > > I'm doing to each object and how long it will take. This helps me > > to be more accurate. If I end up within 20% - 30% then I figure I > > did pretty well. > > > > Good Luck! > > Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > > Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM To: Access > > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] > > Maintenance Fees? > > > > Hello, > > > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about > > "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was > > discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? > > > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it > > a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If > > you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > > US of A. PA to be exact... > > > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > > -- > > John Serrano > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 1 19:25:50 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:25:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi Arthur: Very good questions? Sorry but I just don't know. Putting this all in context asks more questions than it gives answers. Considering, that most big businesses, all fortune 500 companies and all research labs predominantly use Linux as their main OS, there should be limited fear of the product. Linux's speed, security and stability is unmatched... IMHO, Microsoft's hundreds of millions being spent on advertising their products versus Linux which spends virtual nothing may have something to do with it. Note: LibraOffice can comfortably fill the needs of any MS Office user with the exception of maybe MS Access but as you pointed out Wine to the rescue. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Fuller" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 10:02:37 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] And this just in... Jim and John, Why would any large firm such as an international bank invest in any version of Windows? This I simply cannot fathom. There are many versions of Linux that are available free; couple that with OfficeLibre and you've covered about 90% of the user base. If you want custom apps written originally for Office (e.g. Acess or Word etc.), then install Wine. Frankly, I have lost interest in, and no longer can see a business case for, any Windows installation, regardless of which version. AFAICS, there is no reason for this OS to live, other than gravitational pull. Personally, I have moved to Ubuntu and Oracle VirtualBox with an instance of Office 2007 installed there, in case something crops up that I can't handle otherwise. Those instances grow fewer and fewer as each day passes. Arthur -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 1 19:36:16 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 18:36:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1078163999.4518623.1393724176357.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi JohnS: I prefer the maintenance agreement system. For a relatively small monthly fee long term support (like an insurance plan) can be afforded. I have had many customers over the years with such contracts...one was over twenty-five years. The trick is to get the right billing amount...not too little so you do not get fairly compensated and not too much that the client sees no long-term advantage to the arrangement. Eventually, the monthly bill becomes little more than a utility...little more than a cost of doing business. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Serrano" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 10:36:03 AM Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 21:49:03 2014 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 19:49:03 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002> References: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002> Message-ID: I'm just throwing this out as an observation, but in my 20+ years of computing, I've never actually encountered a computer running Unix/Linux (other than during the one day course I took on it about 15 years ago :) ). The one (world class) research lab I know about uses Macs. The multinational company I've done Access dbs for is Microsoft all the way. The mining/engineering company I worked for went from IBM System 3 to Windows. The requirements they have for Excel processing and Autocad make Windows compulsory. If you have Windows requirements like they do, going to Linux/Wine just makes one more expensive layer; the cost for support personnel is probably an order of magnitude higher than the savings on software. Your mileage obviously varies! Doug On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Arthur: > > Very good questions? Sorry but I just don't know. > > Putting this all in context asks more questions than it gives answers. > Considering, that most big businesses, all fortune 500 companies and all > research labs predominantly use Linux as their main OS, there should be > limited fear of the product. Linux's speed, security and stability is > unmatched... > > IMHO, Microsoft's hundreds of millions being spent on advertising their > products versus Linux which spends virtual nothing may have something to do > with it. > > Note: LibraOffice can comfortably fill the needs of any MS Office user > with the exception of maybe MS Access but as you pointed out Wine to the > rescue. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arthur Fuller" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 10:02:37 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] And this just in... > > Jim and John, > > Why would any large firm such as an international bank invest in any > version of Windows? This I simply cannot fathom. There are many versions of > Linux that are available free; couple that with OfficeLibre and you've > covered about 90% of the user base. If you want custom apps written > originally for Office (e.g. Acess or Word etc.), then install Wine. > > Frankly, I have lost interest in, and no longer can see a business case > for, any Windows installation, regardless of which version. AFAICS, there > is no reason for this OS to live, other than gravitational pull. > > Personally, I have moved to Ubuntu and Oracle VirtualBox with an instance > of Office 2007 installed there, in case something crops up that I can't > handle otherwise. Those instances grow fewer and fewer as each day passes. > > Arthur > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 22:30:07 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 23:30:07 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: References: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002> Message-ID: <5312B3CF.2050005@gmail.com> I just finished a 1 year contract with IBM in RTP Raleigh Durham. They used Lenovo laptops which ran Windows 7. They (IBM) were making big waves about moving to Linux but had not done so. Their employees worked firmly in the Microsoft office world, Word and Excel, Microsoft Access / SQL Server. There were a couple of thousand employees in the building I worked in, every machine in the building ran Windows 7. There were several thousand more in a big human warehouse in Portland Oregon, every machine in the place ran Windows 7. The reported demise of Windows is way overblown. It is not a trivial task to move any complex business off the underlying tools onto a non-compatible alternative, and if it requires extensive training or hand holding, even harder. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/1/2014 10:49 PM, Doug Steele wrote: > I'm just throwing this out as an observation, but in my 20+ years of > computing, I've never actually encountered a computer running Unix/Linux > (other than during the one day course I took on it about 15 years ago :) ). > > The one (world class) research lab I know about uses Macs. > > The multinational company I've done Access dbs for is Microsoft all the way. > > The mining/engineering company I worked for went from IBM System 3 to > Windows. The requirements they have for Excel processing and Autocad make > Windows compulsory. If you have Windows requirements like they do, going > to Linux/Wine just makes one more expensive layer; the cost for support > personnel is probably an order of magnitude higher than the savings on > software. > > Your mileage obviously varies! > > Doug > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 23:06:59 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 00:06:59 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: References: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002> Message-ID: <5312BC73.7070702@gmail.com> And BTW, the thousands of employees using Lenovo laptops at the IBM site I worked at... had a laptop docked, locked down, cabled to the desk, and largely closed, with a keyboard and mouse and two identical monitors. They are imaged and handed to an employee. Each desk just has the keyboard, two monitors and a mouse. Plop the docking station down and cable it to the desk. Plug in the peripherals. The only time the laptop was opened was to use the camera for teleconferencing (lotus live). One logs in and connects the laptop (docking station) to the phone system with a network cable. I could literally (and did) move my laptop from office to office to meeting room to the other coast and back to Raleigh. Whatever room I was in, I would plug in to the phone and go and I was up and connected to my peers. Really quite amazing stuff. In fact the standard joke was that IBM stood for I Be Movin'. I ran as an admin because I was a developer but the average Joe was not an admin. They used Lotus Notes / live because IBM forced them to. But mostly they just powered on, logged in and went to work. At the end of the day they were required to log out, power down, remove the laptop from the docking station and lock the laptop in a drawer. Security teams walked around checking. The third offense of not logging out if you stepped away from your desk, keeping a clean desk (NO papers of any kind) or locking the computer in a drawer at the end of the day and you were fired. Flunkie to (presumably) Exec. If you plugged a usb device into the computer it was logged and sent to IBM security and you (and your manager) immediately received an email about a security violation. The USB device did NOT function, but it was logged / reported that you tried. You may bet your bippy Windows 8 was not in the cards for this environment. I never even heard Windows 8 mentioned the entire year I was there. For that matter I never heard Windows 7 explicitly mentioned. It is not about the OS, it is about the job, and getting it done. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/1/2014 10:49 PM, Doug Steele wrote: > I'm just throwing this out as an observation, but in my 20+ years of > computing, I've never actually encountered a computer running Unix/Linux > (other than during the one day course I took on it about 15 years ago :) ). > > The one (world class) research lab I know about uses Macs. > > The multinational company I've done Access dbs for is Microsoft all the way. > > The mining/engineering company I worked for went from IBM System 3 to > Windows. The requirements they have for Excel processing and Autocad make > Windows compulsory. If you have Windows requirements like they do, going > to Linux/Wine just makes one more expensive layer; the cost for support > personnel is probably an order of magnitude higher than the savings on > software. > > Your mileage obviously varies! > > Doug > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 2 03:18:21 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 09:18:21 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: References: <187238131.4515504.1393723550635.JavaMail.root@cds002>, Message-ID: <18adce22039a42b395d25fa51ba07708@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Doug Same here. If it is not Windows, it is Mac as many of our clients are into advertising and TV/movie production. Some had Novell NetWare servers but the only running server left is our own NetWare 6.5 server and it will be phased out this year. It is back up only now; file services were moved a couple of years ago to Windows 2008 and the fantastic DFS file replication system (highly recommended), and mail have just been moved to Office 365. My big client (retail with 40000+ employees) is Microsoft/Citrix only with the exception of an old IBM mainframe that is about to be replaced by a huge SAP and SQL Server on-site setup. Mail has just been changed from Notes to Exchange with core users on-premise and all others on Office 365. No Linux here. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Doug Steele Sendt: 2. marts 2014 04:49 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] And this just in... I'm just throwing this out as an observation, but in my 20+ years of computing, I've never actually encountered a computer running Unix/Linux (other than during the one day course I took on it about 15 years ago :) ). The one (world class) research lab I know about uses Macs. The multinational company I've done Access dbs for is Microsoft all the way. The mining/engineering company I worked for went from IBM System 3 to Windows. The requirements they have for Excel processing and Autocad make Windows compulsory. If you have Windows requirements like they do, going to Linux/Wine just makes one more expensive layer; the cost for support personnel is probably an order of magnitude higher than the savings on software. Your mileage obviously varies! Doug On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Arthur: > > Very good questions? Sorry but I just don't know. > > Putting this all in context asks more questions than it gives answers. > Considering, that most big businesses, all fortune 500 companies and all > research labs predominantly use Linux as their main OS, there should be > limited fear of the product. Linux's speed, security and stability is > unmatched... > > IMHO, Microsoft's hundreds of millions being spent on advertising their > products versus Linux which spends virtual nothing may have something to do > with it. > > Note: LibraOffice can comfortably fill the needs of any MS Office user > with the exception of maybe MS Access but as you pointed out Wine to the > rescue. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arthur Fuller" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2014 10:02:37 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] And this just in... > > Jim and John, > > Why would any large firm such as an international bank invest in any > version of Windows? This I simply cannot fathom. There are many versions of > Linux that are available free; couple that with OfficeLibre and you've > covered about 90% of the user base. If you want custom apps written > originally for Office (e.g. Acess or Word etc.), then install Wine. > > Frankly, I have lost interest in, and no longer can see a business case > for, any Windows installation, regardless of which version. AFAICS, there > is no reason for this OS to live, other than gravitational pull. > > Personally, I have moved to Ubuntu and Oracle VirtualBox with an instance > of Office 2007 installed there, in case something crops up that I can't > handle otherwise. Those instances grow fewer and fewer as each day passes. > > Arthur > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From df.waters at comcast.net Sun Mar 2 08:19:14 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 08:19:14 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: <000101cf35a1$4cf8e320$e6eaa960$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000001cf3622$63a1f4a0$2ae5dde0$@comcast.net> Hi John, Yes ... Experience! The problem you described here would actually not be covered by a maintenance fee - they made a mistake and you should charge for your time to fix it. It might be that your program could do some verification on the text file before it's imported. Since what's in a text file is probably hand-typed, it's going to go wrong again. You can charge every time, but that gets annoying - if you can propose an improvement which would prevent that problem from happening again then everyone is better off. Be consistent with your customer about you charging them to fix their mistakes. And like Stuart said, charge a minimum of one hour. Good Luck! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 5:16 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Dan, thanks for the advice! Sounds like some experience of life has been through the ringer here... Nevertheless, you bring up a good point. where you said leave the app in the hands of their "developers" they don't have any, and seem to think every problem they encounter is something that should be corrected for free. For example, they had a text file they downloaded incorrectly and tried to import the file into the application and got an error and instead reviewing text file the quick answer was "well the program is not working correctly" Only after calling me and I noticed the file format was not the same. This is what has prompted my question, maintenance fee, however I like how you placed this, developed and walk away from it. On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Maintenance fees are for stuff you do to make minor (or sometimes > major) stuff to keep it running as expected. Generally, if you are > not charging for maintenance then you sold it and you walked away > leaving it in the hands of their developers. Maintenance would > typically be about 15% of what the selling price was, per year. If > you add more to the app later then the maintenance fee goes up. If > the app becomes mature at some point and needs little work then it > might make sense to drop the rate down. > > If you are doing improvements that they request then charge by the hour. > Except for the most trivial changes, give them a fixed price quote (be > sure you get this right or you could get hurt). Don't do 'estimate' > or 'not to exceed' quotes - they'll be making a decision based on the > wrong information, and you could work lots of hours for no pay. And - > every charge has a minimum time just for you to install the updated files. > > I got a suggestion once to negotiate a retainer over a period of a > year or so for improvement work. They would pay you an upfront amount > for X hours of work at a reduced rate. If they don't use it all > within a year it's yours - no refunds (but call them at the beginning > of the last quarter to let them know what's left). You get some > money, and they don't have to get authorization every time they want > some small improvement. I've never done this but it could be a win-win. > > Also, take a hard look at the job. If the scope of the job could > increase, then provide a quote only for what you do know you'll be > doing. If they want to go beyond that then you can give a subsequent > quote. Be sure to not get into a situation where you don't know where > they are going but they want an estimate to cover everything. > > I have a basic spreadsheet template I made up to help me list what I'm > doing to each object and how long it will take. This helps me to be > more accurate. If I end up within 20% - 30% then I figure I did > pretty well. > > Good Luck! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > Serrano > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > US of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From df.waters at comcast.net Sun Mar 2 08:22:59 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 08:22:59 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? Message-ID: <000101cf3622$e9c08510$bd418f30$@comcast.net> To All, With this question from John, I was wondering what developer activities should be covered in maintenance fees. It would be good to show a customer what their money is going to cover for them. Some IT Managers will figure that maintenance fees are a given, but some may not. Any thoughts? Thanks! Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > Serrano > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > US of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 2 08:57:50 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 14:57:50 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? In-Reply-To: <000101cf3622$e9c08510$bd418f30$@comcast.net> References: <000101cf3622$e9c08510$bd418f30$@comcast.net> Message-ID: Basic activity considerations start with more what is out rather than what is in: Ad-hoc telephone support - including user advice, support/training. Site visits to deal with matters as above where you were called and asked to fix ____. Sorting out problems caused by client staff doing inappropriate things to the facility. Testing and user acceptance of the modified facility. PII - again raised it's expensive (over)head. Working with 'fixes' to the OS and associated environment. Working with new versions of the OS. Working within the requirements of new legislation. Working with new versions of the underlying apps (Access etc.). (consider the changes needed going from desktop Access 2003 to 2007, 2010, 2013 & 365 working online wirelessly from tablets & phones) Working with changes to the clients IT setup (moving from desktop to in-house server to cloud. Small enhancements requested by the client (e.g. new input process for data feed or user interaction). And is the contract for the client (who may cease to trade under that id), or for a transferrable installation? Substantial enhancements such as the company going corporate multi-company and multinational (multi-currency and multitime-zone). JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:23 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? To All, With this question from John, I was wondering what developer activities should be covered in maintenance fees. It would be good to show a customer what their money is going to cover for them. Some IT Managers will figure that maintenance fees are a given, but some may not. Any thoughts? Thanks! Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > Serrano > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > US of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Mar 2 09:03:26 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:03:26 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? In-Reply-To: References: <000101cf3622$e9c08510$bd418f30$@comcast.net> Message-ID: And I forgot to mention that a major point of maintenance agreements is that the 'budget', charges and payments for work is pre-agreed so the user does not have days, or even weeks of internal admin before getting a problem dealt with. The maintenance agreement should include a named position (and person) as a contact point and authorisation authority for the 'support' call and payment. JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:23 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? To All, With this question from John, I was wondering what developer activities should be covered in maintenance fees. It would be good to show a customer what their money is going to cover for them. Some IT Managers will figure that maintenance fees are a given, but some may not. Any thoughts? Thanks! Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > Serrano > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > Hello, > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > maybe a maintenance fee? > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > US of A. > PA to be exact... > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ssharkins at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:18:46 2014 From: ssharkins at gmail.com (Susan Harkins) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:18:46 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] copy all multivalue field values Message-ID: <077d01cf3643$dc06dde0$941499a0$@gmail.com> A reader wants to append the values in a multivalue field to a second table, but he wants to append them as is - in a single row. By default, an append query creates a new row for each value. Seems like it should be easy to tell Access to keep them all together as they're stored in the original table, but I'm not finding it. Any help? Susan H. From john.k.serrano at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:48:37 2014 From: john.k.serrano at gmail.com (John Serrano) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 14:48:37 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? In-Reply-To: References: <000101cf3622$e9c08510$bd418f30$@comcast.net> Message-ID: Again this is all GREAT feedback and has given me quite a bit to think about! Thanks for the input... On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 9:57 AM, James Button wrote: > Basic activity considerations start with more what is out rather than what > is > in: > > Ad-hoc telephone support - including user advice, support/training. > Site visits to deal with matters as above where you were called and asked > to fix > ____. > Sorting out problems caused by client staff doing inappropriate things to > the > facility. > > Testing and user acceptance of the modified facility. > > PII - again raised it's expensive (over)head. > > Working with 'fixes' to the OS and associated environment. > Working with new versions of the OS. > Working within the requirements of new legislation. > > Working with new versions of the underlying apps (Access etc.). > (consider the changes needed going from desktop Access 2003 to 2007, 2010, > 2013 > & 365 working online wirelessly from tablets & phones) > > Working with changes to the clients IT setup (moving from desktop to > in-house > server to cloud. > > Small enhancements requested by the client (e.g. new input process for > data feed > or user interaction). > > And is the contract for the client (who may cease to trade under that id), > or > for a transferrable installation? > > Substantial enhancements such as the company going corporate multi-company > and > multinational (multi-currency and multitime-zone). > > JimB > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:23 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: [AccessD] What Activities Should Maintenance Fees Cover? > > To All, > > With this question from John, I was wondering what developer activities > should be covered in maintenance fees. It would be good to show a customer > what their money is going to cover for them. > > Some IT Managers will figure that maintenance fees are a given, but some > may > not. > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John > > Serrano > > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 12:36 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? > > > > Hello, > > > > I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. > > Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" > > the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them > > maybe a maintenance fee? > > > > Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a > > straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? > > If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the > > US of A. > > PA to be exact... > > > > any help would be appreciated, thanks! > > -- > > John Serrano > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > John Serrano > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- John Serrano From jimdettman at verizon.net Sun Mar 2 13:54:31 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2014 14:54:31 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93E338EF8FF44916B3F720C87CD213E2@XPS> John, I would suggest avoiding maintenance fees. Many years ago, I went the route of charging by the hour for anything and everything and it's worked well. I know of other developers that have charged maintenance fees, and while it gives you a steady stream of revenue, if usually means you need to come out with a steady stream of enhancements as well. Otherwise the customer starts to feel like their spending their money for nothing (and if your bug free, they are). You also can get bit pretty well; customer argues that something is a bug and should be covered by the maintenance fee, but in your eyes it's not (i.e. something not explained or accounted for when the software was done). Then there are the "small changes"; what exactly is a "small change"? Might seem small to them, but it may not be. But usually in the spirit of good customer relations, you generally let them win. That can really set you back. I like the $/hr approach because it gives the customer exactly what they want and they know their not paying more then they have to. The only thing that needs to be in place is that they trust you to do your best when working by the hour and are being productive. Makes life a lot simpler. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Serrano Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2014 01:36 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Maintenance Fees? Hello, I have recently written an app in MS Access 2010. Application went pretty easy, however I am getting calls about "tweaking" the application or making enhancements. So I was discussing with them maybe a maintenance fee? Does anyone charge past clients a monthly maintenance fee? or is it a straight bill rate time number of hours you work on "whatever"? If you do, can you give me a ball park range for the east coast of the US of A. PA to be exact... any help would be appreciated, thanks! -- John Serrano -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 2 16:18:39 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 08:18:39 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] copy all multivalue field values In-Reply-To: <077d01cf3643$dc06dde0$941499a0$@gmail.com> References: <077d01cf3643$dc06dde0$941499a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5313AE3F.9418.856A9E0@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> They're not actually stored all together in the original table - it just looks that way. The are really normalized child records which are hidden by the system. This is just one of the many reasons that MVFs should be avoided (along with attachment and hyperlink fields). -- Stuart On 2 Mar 2014 at 13:18, Susan Harkins wrote: > A reader wants to append the values in a multivalue field to a second > table, but he wants to append them as is - in a single row. By > default, an append query creates a new row for each value. Seems like > it should be easy to tell Access to keep them all together as they're > stored in the original table, but I'm not finding it. Any help? > > > > Susan H. > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 2 16:20:55 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:20:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] And this just in... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2059920302.4957381.1393798855032.JavaMail.root@cds002> Hi Doug: We each seem to be working in different areas of the computer world. My initial introduction to computers was through the mainframes and minis...CMS and VMS. I worked on high-end graphic/mapping and that was Intergraph and ArcInfo packages... From then all all desktops were Windows but because I worked on contract for government all the backends were Unix and then Linux. This region is an Oracle shop and every server was Unix or Linux. When I worked doing franchises and financial industry work; the FE may have been Windows but the BEs were all Linux... The universities here do not teach Windows. They teach C, C++, web designing, Java and anything Linux. Cost cutting has encouraged most major educational facilities to innovate and licences costs are an easy place to cut. All the local government's research facilities use Linux...that does not mean that they do not have a Windows machine or two but the main systems are Linux or QNX. There are many small Startups here that are building all sorts of hardware solutions and they all use Linux...this is because Linux has a very small foot-print and no licencing issues...then there are all the websites that use Linux unless they have received a sizable cut in licencing fees from MS. I can not say that Microsoft has not been very good to me for development work but the trends in the corporate industry are no favouring Microsoft any more. That is not saying MS is out but instead of being "the OS" it is just another system and has to share with iOS and Linux. Linux, until recently, has not had any easy desktops but that has definitely changed. Maybe Linux has been around for twenty years but they have only been a real contender, on the desktop, for less than five years. Taking, everything in context, given no advertising and considering every install is just word of mouth, its growth has been surprising. Windows is not a bad product but neither is Linux and until you have tried it you can not knock it. Aside: The one product that kept me tied to Windows was Access but MS seems bound and determined to render the product impudent, so any idiot can use it... The new Linux desktops are easy to install, easy to maintain, has every application you will need and then some and when Linux is installed in an office, with younger staff members, they sit down and just get it...for example; Ubuntu Linux comes with Libra Office preinstalled, easily connects to all the servers and printers...it is all ready to go...right off the DVD or internet. (A lot of us old guys are scared stiff of Linux but the younger generation has no such (Microsoft induced?) phobias.) In summary, all predictions say, if you are continuing to stay and advance your career, in the computer industry, being bilingual or multilingual is what new-age developers have to be. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Steele" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, 1 March, 2014 7:49:03 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] And this just in... I'm just throwing this out as an observation, but in my 20+ years of computing, I've never actually encountered a computer running Unix/Linux (other than during the one day course I took on it about 15 years ago :) ). The one (world class) research lab I know about uses Macs. The multinational company I've done Access dbs for is Microsoft all the way. The mining/engineering company I worked for went from IBM System 3 to Windows. The requirements they have for Excel processing and Autocad make Windows compulsory. If you have Windows requirements like they do, going to Linux/Wine just makes one more expensive layer; the cost for support personnel is probably an order of magnitude higher than the savings on software. Your mileage obviously varies! Doug From ssharkins at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 16:32:02 2014 From: ssharkins at gmail.com (Susan Harkins) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 17:32:02 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] copy all multivalue field values In-Reply-To: <5313AE3F.9418.856A9E0@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <077d01cf3643$dc06dde0$941499a0$@gmail.com> <5313AE3F.9418.856A9E0@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Yeah, I knew that. I was just hoping. :) The reader found a solution though, so I'm off the hook. :) Thanks! Susan H. On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > They're not actually stored all together in the original table - it just > looks that way. The are > really normalized child records which are hidden by the system. > > This is just one of the many reasons that MVFs should be avoided (along > with attachment > and hyperlink fields). > > -- > Stuart > > On 2 Mar 2014 at 13:18, Susan Harkins wrote: > > > A reader wants to append the values in a multivalue field to a second > > table, but he wants to append them as is - in a single row. By > > default, an append query creates a new row for each value. Seems like > > it should be easy to tell Access to keep them all together as they're > > stored in the original table, but I'm not finding it. Any help? > > > > > > > > Susan H. > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From kathryn at bassett.net Sun Mar 2 17:17:26 2014 From: kathryn at bassett.net (Kathryn Bassett) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:17:26 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help Message-ID: Jim, I'm forwarding this to the (Access) Database Advisors list - I highly suggest you join the list - the members have been extremely helpful to me through the years. http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo - click on AccessD and subscribe from there. Answering your question will probably be a piece of cake for many of them. -- Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" kathryn at bassett.net http://bassett.net From: ISOGG at yahoogroups.com [mailto:ISOGG at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Barrett Sent: 02 Mar 2014 12:39 PM To: ISOGG Subject: [ISOGG] OFF TOPIC - MS Access I know this is off topic, but I need some MS Access help. Please make any replies to me, not to the list. I'm membership chairman for our local genealogical society. We have our membership file stored in Access. We have a combined key for our file that is made up of last name in one field and first name in another file. We use a "form" for updating member's information and for adding new members. Part of the form is a combo box made up of last name followed by first name. By clicking on the down arrow at the end of the combo box we get a list of 16 members and as we start keying in a name the list changes to reflect what we have keyed in. My problem: lets say we have five members with the last name of Smith, maybe Able, George, Mary, Sam and Sue. All are included in the dropdown list for the combo box. If I click on any of the five names the record for Able Smith is loaded. If I click on Sue Smith, Able Smith is loaded. I would like for the name I click on to be selected. Is there a way to make this work? I know I could create a different key made up of the last name, first name and if needed a unique value to make the key unique, but that requires additional typing and another place for me to make an error. I'll be more than happy to send a copy of the file to anyone would thinks they might be able to help. Sorry to post this here but I don't know any where else to ask. Thanks. Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX __ From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 2 20:43:40 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 12:43:40 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5313EC5C.18971.9494B62@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Hi Jim, A bit difficult to tell from your description, but it sounds as though you are finding the record based only on the last name field. You would be better off using a hidden, meaningless primary key for each record (what is known aas a "surrogate key" and locating records based on that behind the scene. If you want to zip up a copy of your database and send t to me, I will take a look at it for you. On 2 Mar 2014 at 15:17, Kathryn Bassett wrote: > Jim, I'm forwarding this to the (Access) Database Advisors list - I > highly suggest you join the list - the members have been extremely > helpful to me through the years. > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo - click on AccessD and > subscribe from there. Answering your question will probably be a piece > of cake for many of them. > > > > -- > > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > > kathryn at bassett.net > > http://bassett.net > > > > > > > > From: ISOGG at yahoogroups.com [mailto:ISOGG at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf > Of Jim Barrett Sent: 02 Mar 2014 12:39 PM To: ISOGG Subject: [ISOGG] > OFF TOPIC - MS Access > > > > I know this is off topic, but I need some MS Access help. Please make > any replies to me, not to the list. > > > > I'm membership chairman for our local genealogical society. We have > our membership file stored in Access. We have a combined key for our > file that is made up of last name in one field and first name in > another file. We use a "form" for updating member's information and > for adding new members. Part of the form is a combo box made up of > last name followed by first name. By clicking on the down arrow at > the end of the combo box we get a list of 16 members and as we start > keying in a name the list changes to reflect what we have keyed in. > > > > My problem: lets say we have five members with the last name of > Smith, maybe Able, George, Mary, Sam and Sue. All are included in the > dropdown list for the combo box. If I click on any of the five names > the record for Able Smith is loaded. If I click on Sue Smith, Able > Smith is loaded. > > > > I would like for the name I click on to be selected. Is there a way > to make this work? I know I could create a different key made up of > the last name, first name and if needed a unique value to make the key > unique, but that requires additional typing and another place for me > to make an error. > > > > I'll be more than happy to send a copy of the file to anyone would > thinks they might be able to help. > > > > Sorry to post this here but I don't know any where else to ask. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX > > __ > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From parino at flash.net Mon Mar 3 08:13:10 2014 From: parino at flash.net (Jim Barrett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 06:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help In-Reply-To: <5313EC5C.18971.9494B62@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <5313EC5C.18971.9494B62@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <1393855990.47437.YahooMailNeo@web185005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ?Thanks.? I have replied off list to Stuart. Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX >________________________________ > From: Stuart McLachlan >To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >Cc: Jim Barrett' >Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2014 8:43 PM >Subject: Re: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help > > >Hi Jim, > >A bit difficult? to tell from your description, but it sounds as though you are finding the record >based only on the last name field.? > >You would be better off using a hidden, meaningless primary key for each record (what is >known aas a? "surrogate key" and locating records based on that behind the scene. > >If you want to zip up a copy of your database and send t to me, I will take a look at it for you. > > > >On 2 Mar 2014 at 15:17, Kathryn Bassett wrote: > >> Jim, I'm forwarding this to the (Access) Database Advisors list - I >> highly suggest you join the list - the members have been extremely >> helpful to me through the years. >> >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo - click on AccessD and >> subscribe from there. Answering your question will probably be a piece >> of cake for many of them. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) >> >> "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" >> >> kathryn at bassett.net >> >> http://bassett.net/ ? ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: ISOGG at yahoogroups.com [mailto:ISOGG at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf >> Of Jim Barrett Sent: 02 Mar 2014 12:39 PM To: ISOGG Subject: [ISOGG] >> OFF TOPIC - MS Access >> >> >> >> I know this is off topic, but I need some MS Access help.? Please make >> any replies to me, not to the list. >> >> >> >> I'm membership chairman for our local genealogical society.? We have >> our membership file stored in Access.? We have a combined key for our >> file that is made up of last name in one field and first name in >> another file.? We use a "form" for updating member's information and >> for adding new members.? Part of the form is a combo box made up of >> last name followed by first name.? By clicking on the down arrow at >> the end of the combo box we get a list of 16 members and as we start >> keying in a name the list changes to reflect what we have keyed in. >> >> >> >> My problem:? lets say we have five members with the last name of >> Smith, maybe Able, George, Mary, Sam and Sue.? All are included in the >> dropdown list for the combo box.? If I click on any of the five names >> the record for Able Smith is loaded.? If I click on Sue Smith, Able >> Smith is loaded. >> >> >> >> I would like for the name I click on to be selected.? Is there a way >> to make this work?? I know I could create a different key made up of >> the last name, first name and if needed a unique value to make the key >> unique, but that requires additional typing and another place for me >> to make an error. >> >> >> >> I'll be more than happy to send a copy of the file to anyone would >> thinks they might be able to help. >> >> >> >> Sorry to post this here but I don't know any where else to ask. >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX >> >> __ >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com/ >> > > >-- >AccessD mailing list >AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com/ > > > From kathryn at bassett.net Mon Mar 3 11:15:47 2014 From: kathryn at bassett.net (Kathryn Bassett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:15:47 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help In-Reply-To: <1393855990.47437.YahooMailNeo@web185005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5313EC5C.18971.9494B62@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <1393855990.47437.YahooMailNeo@web185005.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jim, welcome to the list! Since you are having a dialog off list, be sure to do a recap when the problem is solved so the archives have the answer. This is a great group, even to the personal touch as you'll see in my Converting Case thread. -- Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" kathryn at bassett.net http://bassett.net?? > -----Original Message----- > ?Thanks.? I have replied off list to Stuart. > > Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX From kathryn at bassett.net Mon Mar 3 11:17:35 2014 From: kathryn at bassett.net (Kathryn Bassett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:17:35 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case Message-ID: I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last night he came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his code. -- Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" kathryn at bassett.net http://bassett.net?? > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few years ago > (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > function_topic166.html > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: From jwelz at hotmail.com Mon Mar 3 13:37:41 2014 From: jwelz at hotmail.com (Jurgen Welz) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:37:41 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase In-Reply-To: <5311CC9E.7040203@gmail.com> References: <181013799.4004420.1393646672565.JavaMail.root@cds002>, <5311CC9E.7040203@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was happy until they started messing with the keyboard shortcuts. Office began the downward spiral with the ribbon. I used to be able to insert a row with alt i, r. Now it's shift space, ctrl +. It was 3 keys on a typical keyboard turned to 4 (one key with your hands away from the home row) and 5 keys with my laptop (add shift = to get the +). I'd start any application I needed with the Windows key and a single other key (the first letter of the application- I'd just rename so the shortcut worked). I fail to understand the need to lose the old capability. It's not like it couldn't coexist. Windows 8 is negatively impacting productivity and there was never any need for it to do so. If the task bar takes up too much real estate on a screen, I can't help but wonder what braniac came up with the ribbon menu. Put that on a 21:9 widescreen monitor.. I've taken to setting up dual screens with one vertical and one horizontal. Ciao J?rgen Welz Edmonton, Alberta jwelz at hotmail.com > Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 07:03:42 -0500 > From: jwcolby at gmail.com > To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase > > Jim, > > I think that what we really have is a very bi-polar situation where a huge mass of people, billions > of people, work all day at something. They might want to spend all day playing on their tablet but > can't really, they have to stock store shelves, run cash registers, wait tables, drive buses and so > forth. > > After work, yep they jump on their entertainment of choice, whether that may be TV, streaming TV, > surfing the internet or walking the dog. > > The companies that hire the masses do NOT want their employees spending all day on their tablets (or > work computers) surfing the internet, or Facebook, they want them doing their jobs. They do NOT > want their work computers (where one is needed) looking and feeling like an entertainment console. > They do NOT want their employees being sucked off into Facebook, twitter, or Newegg advertisements > because they were researching a new computer build last night at home. They want their employees > doing their job. > > Microsoft, via Windows and the Office package, has been at the very core of the office environment > since day one. Microsoft is the company that it is, 98%, BECAUSE of this focus and environment. > However Microsoft has watched the smartphone craze, and then the tablet craze, and then the Phablet > craze and notice that they missed the boat with the current Windows, which of course they did. So > they threw the baby out with the bathwater and invented Windows 8 which is VERY MUCH a shell over > Windows 7, in order to turn Windows into a tablet / phone friendly OS. That is not a bad thing all > by itself, Microsoft needed to do this, BUT... > > But Windows 8 fanbois opinions to the contrary, it is DECIDEDLY work unfriendly. As a working OS, > companies do not want ANYTHING that diverts the attention of the worker away from their Job, and > Windows 8, BY DESIGN, is about doing just that. Let me rephrase that, it is not intentionally about > that, it is just about recreation instead of about work. The very things that are required for a > good recreation interface get in the way of getting work done. > > This is not ME saying this (though I agree, from admittedly limited experience), it is millions upon > millions upon HUNDREDS of millions of workers and managers and IT folks saying this. > > So Microsoft and their Windows 8 fanbois say "well just be patient, spend some time learning it, > download this app and that app..." > > But Business is NOT about working around the limitations of their basic tools IMPOSED on them by the > creator of those tools in order that the creator of those tools can make money from a segment of the > market that is the antithesis of what Business does. Business should not HAVE to spend hours of > every employee's time, and download tons of crap, simply to get their employees back to work, so > that MS can finally get a slice of the recreation OS market. It is decidedly NOT Business' > problem!!! It is not their problem until MS mangles the BUSINESS Windows interface to make it > recreation friendly and shoves it down Business throat. > > What exactly does MS expect business to do when faced with this? The very fact that Windows 8 is by > design entertainment focused is reason enough, all by itself, for business to refuse to install it > on work machines. What exactly does MS expect Business to do? > > I can tell you what I expect business to do. Refuse to install it. That is precisely what I would > do if I was the manager of the business. > > A Hooka pipe is designed, from the ground up, for recreational pursuits. There is not a person > reading this thread who would seriously propose that Businesses around the world should be required > to install on in their companies. Windows 8 interface was designed, from the ground up, for > recreational purposes. Let's call a spade a spade and stop dancing around the subject. Business does > not want it, and will NEVER want it, and for very good reasons. > > MS needs to continue to market Windows 8 to the recreation market and focus on getting it's business > OS (Windows 7) back on track and continuing to be sold to the millions of business PCs that will > continue to be sold. The office PC is NOT going away anytime soon. And I don't see business > backing down about installing an entertainment console on their work computers. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 2/28/2014 11:04 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Hi John: > > > > > > My belief is that the major companies are the entities that are really trying to kill off the PC. > > > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 3 16:46:11 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 08:46:11 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Friend needs Access help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <53150633.27567.D963B42@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I've taken a look at Jim's problem and here's the crux of my response to him: Jim already had a field called AutoNum in his Membership table. so I: 1. Made that the Primary key 2. Included it in the row source SQL of the unbound "Find" combobox. 3. Made it the "Bound Column" of the combobox 4. Used it as the criteria for the FindFirst in the combobox After_Update event -- Stuart On 3 Mar 2014 at 9:15, Kathryn Bassett wrote: > Jim, welcome to the list! Since you are having a dialog off list, be > sure to do a recap when the problem is solved so the archives have the > answer. > > This is a great group, even to the personal touch as you'll see in my > Converting Case thread. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net?? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > ?Thanks.? I have replied off list to Stuart. > > > > Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From vbacreations at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:31:40 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 20:31:40 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cf3749$8b686a50$a2393ef0$@gmail.com> Uh, is David in California? It makes all the difference. -- New York. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn Bassett Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 12:18 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last night he came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his code. -- Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" kathryn at bassett.net http://bassett.net?? > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few years ago > (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > function_topic166.html > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From kathryn at bassett.net Mon Mar 3 19:36:24 2014 From: kathryn at bassett.net (Kathryn Bassett) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:36:24 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case In-Reply-To: <000001cf3749$8b686a50$a2393ef0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf3749$8b686a50$a2393ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, you'll notice Pasadena CA in my sig. He lives about 2 miles from me. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: 03 Mar 2014 5:32 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > Uh, is David in California? It makes all the difference. > > -- New York. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn > Bassett > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 12:18 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last night he > came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his code. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few years > > ago (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > > function_topic166.html > > > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 19:40:15 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 20:40:15 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf3749$8b686a50$a2393ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000101cf374a$be785b20$3b691160$@gmail.com> Yes I noticed ... and that is why I jokingly said it makes a difference, as I am in NY... otherwise might have done the same. :-) Glad you were helped. If word gets out that David makes house calls for database issues, we all might move to CA. Bill -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn Bassett Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 8:36 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case Yes, you'll notice Pasadena CA in my sig. He lives about 2 miles from me. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: 03 Mar 2014 5:32 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > Uh, is David in California? It makes all the difference. > > -- New York. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn > Bassett > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 12:18 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last night he > came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his code. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few years > > ago (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > > function_topic166.html > > > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 3 21:18:03 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 22:18:03 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Reality is... (see my tag line) Message-ID: <531545EB.9000401@gmail.com> http://www.wired.com/business/2014/03/microsoft-turns-into-google/ Which leaves us wondering what happens to desktop OS support? Windows 8.X is not the answer so what is? -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 3 22:33:39 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 21:33:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Reality is... (see my tag line) In-Reply-To: <531545EB.9000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2011143087.5063407.1393907619768.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: Sounds like a start but they still might have a problem knocking Google off its world best selling laptop, Chromebooks. For one, Windows 8.x has a much larger footprint and runs slower on equal hardware, two, Microsoft threatened to pre-install Bing, three, there are few apps available in the MS store and last but not least there is still the Windows 8.x issue to resolve. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 3, 2014 7:18:03 PM Subject: [AccessD] Reality is... (see my tag line) http://www.wired.com/business/2014/03/microsoft-turns-into-google/ Which leaves us wondering what happens to desktop OS support? Windows 8.X is not the answer so what is? -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 4 01:06:40 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 07:06:40 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Manufacturing Application In-Reply-To: <530FAA6E.3531.1383AA39@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <530FAA6E.3531.1383AA39@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Rocky/Stuart, Thanks again for the replies, this has been put on a backburner for a while at my friends works, so I will probably be asking again sometime in the future, gives me a little more time to try and find some example databases and structures and how these things are put together to give me an idea of a generic system. Now I have an idea for a type of remote time logging application, what I need is something similar to the HSBC internet banking key, where to logon a person has to have an ID generated by the HSBC key to use the account, anyone have any experience of working with something like this, basically there would be these keys at static locations, a person arrives at these locations generates a code with the key then sends that code via SMS (think I have the SMS piece and the rest of it) the code will need to be random like the HSBC key i.e. I think it uses part of account, time and date etc....then when code comes into the database it can be checked and if matches knows the location details of where that person is, if not then alerts the user by SMS to try again. I did think about writing a mobile app but not all locations will have internet access for wi-fi and don't want to use the users own data usage which is why I am letting them send by SMS, so the only problem I can forsee is the random code matching from location to base. Thanks in advance Paul On 27 February 2014 21:13, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Coming back a bit late = I was trying to track down the application but > can't find a copy. > > I built exactly this a number of years ago. The company used it for > producting all the paint > manufactured in PNG until their parent company overseas was bought out by > Akzno Nobel > and they had to change to AN's worldwide system. > > You are looking at a a wide range fo chemicals that come in bags and drums > and > forumae/processes to convert them into paint. There are quite a few > mixtures which are > made up in advance and can then be used in formulations so you have some > things which > are treated both as material and product. > > The formulations will be recorded as a series of steps with quantity of a > component to be > added and a description of that stage. The production sheet needs to > generated for each > paint batch based on the formulation, formula and qty to be produced.. > > Quantities in a forumla will be either weight based on volume based and > you need to record > the specific gravity of each liquid ingredient and end product so that you > can convert it to > weight. Quantities in formulae are per lb/kg or whatever. > > So there is a bit of math involved in converting a formula listing > vomponents in grams/kg into > a production sheet listing quantities and steps to produce 600 litres of > end product. > > That's the simple part. Then comes stock control, production scheduling, > material > forecasting, sample testing results etc, ect. > > > > > > On 27 Feb 2014 at 9:23, Paul Hartland wrote: > > > Rocky I will get back to you at some point, as soon as my friend can > > get back to me, as a start I have asked (probably the wrong question) > > if he could supply me with a list of all raw materials they currently > > have that are used in the manufacture of this specialised paint, so at > > least I can look at building a sort of raw parts inventory. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 26 February 2014 13:45, jack drawbridge > > wrote: > > > > > Paul, > > > There are a number of free data models at > > > http://www.databaseanswers.org > > > > > > use google or bing and use this search term > > > > > > *databaseanswers.org data model > > > manufacturing* > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Paul Hartland < > > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > To all, > > > > > > > > Has anyone had any experience in designing and developing a > > > > manufacturing application, I am trying to find a database model or > > > > example database to get an exact idea of requirements, basically a > > > > friend of mine works as > > > head > > > > accountant for a specialist paint manufacturer and he says there > > > > just > > > isn't > > > > anything out there to do exactly what they require, so being > > > > clever I > > > said > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 4 01:47:19 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 07:47:19 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case Message-ID: <486dade8e476479f9c6f46e05e29bdd1@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Bill Me too. However, to cross the Atlantic as well as the Rockys ... /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Bill Benson Sendt: 4. marts 2014 02:40 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case Yes I noticed ... and that is why I jokingly said it makes a difference, as I am in NY... otherwise might have done the same. :-) Glad you were helped. If word gets out that David makes house calls for database issues, we all might move to CA. Bill -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn Bassett Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 8:36 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case Yes, you'll notice Pasadena CA in my sig. He lives about 2 miles from me. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: 03 Mar 2014 5:32 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > Uh, is David in California? It makes all the difference. > > -- New York. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kathryn > Bassett > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 12:18 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case > > I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last > night he > came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his code. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is > my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few > > years ago (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > > function_topic166.html > > > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 4 02:08:36 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:08:36 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) Message-ID: <166bdd0fc1584d868da225d2bd84ec1c@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi J?rgen So you are still here ... after lurking for 2? years. Great! However, with Excel 2010, if I press Alt+i, a tip pops up telling that I can continue using the shortcuts. Then, still holding Alt, I press r, and the row is inserted, but only from the current column and onwards. Shift+Space, Ctrl++ will insert a full row (from and including column A) no matter which column is current. So these two actions are not fully identical. If you have Access in mind, pressing Ctrl++ directly will move you to a new record. So is something missing from your installation? /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Jurgen Welz Sendt: 3. marts 2014 20:38 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase I was happy until they started messing with the keyboard shortcuts. Office began the downward spiral with the ribbon. I used to be able to insert a row with alt i, r. Now it's shift space, ctrl +. It was 3 keys on a typical keyboard turned to 4 (one key with your hands away from the home row) and 5 keys with my laptop (add shift = to get the +). I'd start any application I needed with the Windows key and a single other key (the first letter of the application- I'd just rename so the shortcut worked). I fail to understand the need to lose the old capability. It's not like it couldn't coexist. Windows 8 is negatively impacting productivity and there was never any need for it to do so. If the task bar takes up too much real estate on a screen, I can't help but wonder what braniac came up with the ribbon menu. Put that on a 21:9 widescreen monitor.. I've taken to setting up dual screens with one vertical and one horizontal. Ciao J?rgen Welz Edmonton, Alberta jwelz at hotmail.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 4 02:21:43 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 18:21:43 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Manufacturing Application In-Reply-To: References: , <530FAA6E.3531.1383AA39@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, Message-ID: <53158D17.14039.FA52608@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Just found a nine year old copy of the app which zips up to about 8MB. -- Stuart On 4 Mar 2014 at 7:06, Paul Hartland wrote: > Rocky/Stuart, > > Thanks again for the replies, this has been put on a backburner for a > while at my friends works, so I will probably be asking again sometime > in the future, gives me a little more time to try and find some > example databases and structures and how these things are put together > to give me an idea of a generic system. From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 4 02:47:52 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:47:52 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Manufacturing Application In-Reply-To: <53158D17.14039.FA52608@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <530FAA6E.3531.1383AA39@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <53158D17.14039.FA52608@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Cool, would be nice to have a look if you didn't mind, however not got Access on my PC only OpenOffice, but if it converts ok should give me an idea of what I could be getting into if my friends company decide to prioritise it again, as this one will be a SQL Server back-end with VB6 or VB.net front-end. You would probably need to send it off-line so my email is paul.hartland at googlemail.com. Kind Regards, Paul On 4 March 2014 08:21, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Just found a nine year old copy of the app which zips up to about 8MB. > > -- > Stuart > > On 4 Mar 2014 at 7:06, Paul Hartland wrote: > > > Rocky/Stuart, > > > > Thanks again for the replies, this has been put on a backburner for a > > while at my friends works, so I will probably be asking again sometime > > in the future, gives me a little more time to try and find some > > example databases and structures and how these things are put together > > to give me an idea of a generic system. > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 11:47:14 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:47:14 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Message-ID: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the mud curmudgeons among us: http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Tue Mar 4 12:01:39 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 10:01:39 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and a keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. R P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right side of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to appear on my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, I should be so concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI appearance is really the most important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. I could spend all day looking at them. P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the mud curmudgeons among us: http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwelz at hotmail.com Tue Mar 4 12:25:44 2014 From: jwelz at hotmail.com (Jurgen Welz) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:25:44 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) In-Reply-To: <166bdd0fc1584d868da225d2bd84ec1c@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <166bdd0fc1584d868da225d2bd84ec1c@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Gustav: I haven't really been lurking as I've rarely read anything posted to this list. I never did unsubscribe though. You are right about the insert shortcut. It works for Excel 2010 and 2013. I could have sworn it didn't. In fact, I did swear a lot. I'd been managing safety for the construction company I've been with since 2006 and hired my younger brother in 2010 to take over the Access development I was involved with when I was first joined the list. We are now splitting from the parent company and their former security obsession that had hindered our software independence. The result is a new safety manager is in place and I've been back in the IT world since mid December. We plan to go live with a completely new infrastructure as soon as the parent allows the split. They have been involved in a multi-million dollar SAP implementation for their 3 billion dollar annual volume business and we have been implementing an integrated software package that interfaces with our estimating system to take over payroll, accounting, purchasing and accounts payable by April 1. No irony in that date, but realistically, we won't be allowed to leave until they can get some meaningful data out of SAP. They don't currently have the resources to make that happen nor have they been able to get meaningful and accurate reporting that meet our needs. We'll be lucky if we can go our separate ways by May. Chances are, we'll take a best guess, saw off the projects that are active on a given date and then make adjustments when they figure out their end. We've cut our business to 5 offices in western Canada with 50 users supporting about 300 field workers today. We will be using Office 365 in a cloud deployment and will be colocating in a data center. Figuring out the Microsoft licensing for the cores on SQL Server, client access licensing, terminals, exchange, software assurance (or not) has been challenging but it's all coming together. Infiniband, SSDs and spinning disks, back up power, inter connectivity, an office without fibre, new phone systems. Once we're up, then it's work on Sharepoint and connect our exisiting MS Access system to our new software, implement a Sharepoint environment, build a web interface for field entry of time, purchasing and cost coding, and then lastly, move our MS Access system into dot Net. Exciting times. Ciao J?rgen Welz Edmonton, Alberta jwelz at hotmail.com > From: gustav at cactus.dk > To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:08:36 +0000 > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) > > Hi J?rgen > > So you are still here ... after lurking for 2? years. Great! > > However, with Excel 2010, if I press Alt+i, a tip pops up telling that I can continue using the shortcuts. Then, still holding Alt, I press r, and the row is inserted, but only from the current column and onwards. > Shift+Space, Ctrl++ will insert a full row (from and including column A) no matter which column is current. So these two actions are not fully identical. > > If you have Access in mind, pressing Ctrl++ directly will move you to a new record. > > So is something missing from your installation? > > /gustav > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Jurgen Welz > Sendt: 3. marts 2014 20:38 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: Re: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase > > I was happy until they started messing with the keyboard shortcuts. Office began the downward spiral with the ribbon. I used to be able to insert a row with alt i, r. Now it's shift space, ctrl +. It was 3 keys on a typical keyboard turned to 4 (one key with your hands away from the home row) and 5 keys with my laptop (add shift = to get the +). > > > > I'd start any application I needed with the Windows key and a single other key (the first letter of the application- I'd just rename so the shortcut worked). > > > I fail to understand the need to lose the old capability. It's not like it couldn't coexist. Windows 8 is negatively impacting productivity and there was never any need for it to do so. If the task bar takes up too much real estate on a screen, I can't help but wonder what braniac came up with the ribbon menu. Put that on a 21:9 widescreen monitor.. I've taken to setting up dual screens with one vertical and one horizontal. > > > Ciao > > J?rgen Welz > > Edmonton, Alberta > > jwelz at hotmail.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 12:21:58 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:21:58 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> Cool!!! Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something mapped over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a specific button. Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am done with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which closes the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever used since you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop mode". And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. So Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe not even then. cur?mud?geon /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and who often complains Hmmmm... OK. And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the > mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 12:09:03 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:09:03 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> Message-ID: <531616BF.2040909@gmail.com> Rocky, You seem to have a bad attitude. You must be a "stuck in the mud curmudgeon"? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally > useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and a > keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right side > of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to appear on > my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, I should be so > concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI appearance is really the most > important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the > mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com Tue Mar 4 13:13:07 2014 From: Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com (Rusty Hammond) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:13:07 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> John, No problem shutting down those apps when you're done with them. Just press Alt+F4 - they haven't changed that keystroke combination yet. Don't ask why I remembered that one. Hadn't used it since I don't know when, but then I got Windows 8 installed ... oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? Rusty -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:22 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Cool!!! Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something mapped over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a specific button. Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am done with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which closes the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever used since you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop mode". And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. So Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe not even then. cur*mud*geon /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and who often complains Hmmmm... OK. And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ********************************************************************** WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. ********************************************************************** From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Tue Mar 4 13:17:41 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 11:17:41 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531616BF.2040909@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net><2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <531616BF.2040909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3584516762E244FA917538D062C2C766@HAL9007> Guilty as charged. r -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:09 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Rocky, You seem to have a bad attitude. You must be a "stuck in the mud curmudgeon"? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is > totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and > a keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right > side of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to > appear on my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, > I should be so concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI > appearance is really the most important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 13:20:43 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:20:43 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> Message-ID: <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> >OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. "Flipping off" a machine definitely does not work! ;) OTOH a hammer seems to work. >With some effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. Well... in a word ... NO. Windows 8 did away with Windows. We expect that the next version of the operating system will be called Panes 9. Or to the curmudgeonly masses, PAINS 9. ;) Panes of course are lobotomized windows. They MUST run the full height of the display. They have no controls related to minimizing, or adjusting the vertical size. In 8.0 they snapped to a fixed (by MS?) size if you tried to have more than one. So with Windows (Panes) 8, you were allowed TWO panes. The horizontal sizes appeared to be fixed, i.e. yes you could have them, but they would be THIS EXACT WIDTH. Which led to a tall narrow pane and whatever was left of the screen. Why this is a good idea I will leave to the Fanbois to explain. With Windows (Panes) 8.1, they loosened up a bit and allowed more panes. Home many more you ask? Well... what is the resolution of your monitor? It seems that the number of horizontal pixels determines the number you can have. I will let a fanboi jump into this to explain how it works, since I decided if I can't have Windows I am outa here. But from what I remember, the higher the (horizontal) resolution the larger the number of (full height) panes you could have. Why any of this is superior to actual Windows (on a desktop) I will leave to the Windows 8 Fanbois to explain. I assume it has to do with making your dual monitor desktop look and act like a windows phone. Hmmmmm..... (this wasn't MY idea!!!) Understand that I left the Windows (Panes / Pains) 8 scene about 30 minutes after downloading 8.1 and discovered that it seemed to suck as bad as the 8.0 version. I have to tell you that it was a scary moment taking my 1000 dollar brand new laptop and doing a Windows 7 install on it. HP had told me essentially that they did not support Windows 7 on my new laptop, and that I was on my own. After the install it took probably a day of researching chipset drivers and downloading them to get all of the objects under device manager functioning. But it worked. I even have touch enabled. I then swapped out the shitty 5400 RPM notebook disk with a Samsung EVO 500gb drive and Wowza!!! A quad core Intel I7 laptop with 8 gigs RAM, a moderately powerful video, and SSD running Windows 7. YES!!! Back to my mud hole, where I get actual work done. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally > useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and a > keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right side > of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to appear on > my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, I should be so > concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI appearance is really the most > important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the > mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 13:43:18 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:43:18 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> Message-ID: <53162CD6.3060706@gmail.com> OK, this explains the pains... 15. Run two apps side by side Modern UI apps are what Microsoft calls 'immersive' applications, which basically means they run full-screen - but there are ways to view up to four at once. On Windows 8, swipe from the left and the last app you were using will turn into a thumbnail; drop this, and one app displays in a sidebar pane while your current app takes the rest of the screen. And you can then swap these by swiping again. Windows 8.1 expands on this and can display up to four apps simultaneously, if you've enough screen space. Move your mouse cursor to the top of the screen, and when it changes to a hand icon, drag and drop your app to the left or right. Once you've moved it enough, a dividing line will appear, you can drop the app, and it'll appear in just that part of the screen. Use the bar between your apps to resize their window widths, or if you need to make one full-screen again. It doesn't explain why we need something like the calculator to be the full screen. "Immersive"? It's a damned calculator. It is, by design, supposed to hover over the top of whatever I need to look at as I key numbers into it. The same with a spreadsheet (for example). I cannot tell you how often I have adjusted the size of a spreadsheet such that I could look at something else as I key numbers into the spreadsheet. But now... they are "Immersive" and WILL BE FULL SCREEN. And Microsoft WILL BE IDIOTS, and Pains 8x WILL BE IMMERSIVE, and WILL BE IN YOUR FACE. And we will be reduced to the lowest common denominator and look exactly like your Pains 8x phone. Notice that I said YOUR because I will not ever have such a beast, nor a Pains 8x tablet. As it happens, Android works fine for these things for me. So do we think full windowing is ever coming back? I do not. Now... John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally > useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and a > keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right side > of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to appear on > my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, I should be so > concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI appearance is really the most > important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck in the > mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 13:44:28 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:44:28 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> Message-ID: <53162D1C.6000505@gmail.com> >>>oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? It matters not because I use Android phones and tablets. ;) John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 2:13 PM, Rusty Hammond wrote: > John, > > No problem shutting down those apps when you're done with them. Just > press Alt+F4 - they haven't changed > that keystroke combination yet. Don't ask why I remembered that one. > Hadn't used it since I don't know when, but then I got Windows 8 > installed ... oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or > Windows phone? > > Rusty > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:22 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Cool!!! > > Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am > there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. > AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" > interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something mapped > over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a specific > button. > > Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am done > with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which closes > the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever used since > you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. > > Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop > mode". > > And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly > pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. > Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly > escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. So > Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe not > even then. > > > cur*mud*geon > > /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ > > : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and > who often complains > > > Hmmmm... OK. > > And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. > > John W. Colby > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: >> Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck >> in the mud curmudgeons among us: >> http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ >> >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > ********************************************************************** > WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, > scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. > corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review > by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. > ********************************************************************** > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 4 14:05:52 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:05:52 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Windows_8?= In-Reply-To: <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> >? I have to tell you that it was a scary moment... "Luddite moment"? ;) You could have just used to use [WindowKey] + [D] to get switched into Win8.x desktop mode... -- Shamil Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:20 PM -05:00 from John W Colby : >>OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my >gestures have any effect on my machines. > >"Flipping off" a machine definitely does not work! ;) OTOH a hammer seems to work. > >?>With some effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > >Well... in a word ... NO. > >Windows 8 did away with Windows. We expect that the next version of the operating system will be >called Panes 9. Or to the curmudgeonly masses, PAINS 9. ;) > >Panes of course are lobotomized windows. They MUST run the full height of the display. They have >no controls related to minimizing, or adjusting the vertical size. In 8.0 they snapped to a fixed >(by MS?) size if you tried to have more than one. > >So with Windows (Panes) 8, you were allowed TWO panes. The horizontal sizes appeared to be fixed, >i.e. yes you could have them, but they would be THIS EXACT WIDTH. Which led to a tall narrow pane >and whatever was left of the screen. Why this is a good idea I will leave to the Fanbois to explain. > >With Windows (Panes) 8.1, they loosened up a bit and allowed more panes. Home many more you ask? >Well... what is the resolution of your monitor? It seems that the number of horizontal pixels >determines the number you can have. I will let a fanboi jump into this to explain how it works, >since I decided if I can't have Windows I am outa here. But from what I remember, the higher the >(horizontal) resolution the larger the number of (full height) panes you could have. Why any of >this is superior to actual Windows (on a desktop) I will leave to the Windows 8 Fanbois to explain. >I assume it has to do with making your dual monitor desktop look and act like a windows phone. >Hmmmmm..... (this wasn't MY idea!!!) > >Understand that I left the Windows (Panes / Pains) 8 scene about 30 minutes after downloading 8.1 >and discovered that it seemed to suck as bad as the 8.0 version. > >I have to tell you that it was a scary moment taking my 1000 dollar brand new laptop and doing a >Windows 7 install on it. HP had told me essentially that they did not support Windows 7 on my new >laptop, and that I was on my own. After the install it took probably a day of researching chipset >drivers and downloading them to get all of the objects under device manager functioning. But it >worked. I even have touch enabled. I then swapped out the shitty 5400 RPM notebook disk with a >Samsung EVO 500gb drive and Wowza!!! A quad core Intel I7 laptop with 8 gigs RAM, a moderately >powerful video, and SSD running Windows 7. > >YES!!! > >Back to my mud hole, where I get actual work done. > >John W. Colby > >Reality is what refuses to go away >when you do not believe in it ><<< skipped >>> From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 14:09:21 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:09:21 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:21 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 >OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. "Flipping off" a machine definitely does not work! ;) OTOH a hammer seems to work. >With some effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. Well... in a word ... NO. Windows 8 did away with Windows. We expect that the next version of the operating system will be called Panes 9. Or to the curmudgeonly masses, PAINS 9. ;) Panes of course are lobotomized windows. They MUST run the full height of the display. They have no controls related to minimizing, or adjusting the vertical size. In 8.0 they snapped to a fixed (by MS?) size if you tried to have more than one. So with Windows (Panes) 8, you were allowed TWO panes. The horizontal sizes appeared to be fixed, i.e. yes you could have them, but they would be THIS EXACT WIDTH. Which led to a tall narrow pane and whatever was left of the screen. Why this is a good idea I will leave to the Fanbois to explain. With Windows (Panes) 8.1, they loosened up a bit and allowed more panes. Home many more you ask? Well... what is the resolution of your monitor? It seems that the number of horizontal pixels determines the number you can have. I will let a fanboi jump into this to explain how it works, since I decided if I can't have Windows I am outa here. But from what I remember, the higher the (horizontal) resolution the larger the number of (full height) panes you could have. Why any of this is superior to actual Windows (on a desktop) I will leave to the Windows 8 Fanbois to explain. I assume it has to do with making your dual monitor desktop look and act like a windows phone. Hmmmmm..... (this wasn't MY idea!!!) Understand that I left the Windows (Panes / Pains) 8 scene about 30 minutes after downloading 8.1 and discovered that it seemed to suck as bad as the 8.0 version. I have to tell you that it was a scary moment taking my 1000 dollar brand new laptop and doing a Windows 7 install on it. HP had told me essentially that they did not support Windows 7 on my new laptop, and that I was on my own. After the install it took probably a day of researching chipset drivers and downloading them to get all of the objects under device manager functioning. But it worked. I even have touch enabled. I then swapped out the shitty 5400 RPM notebook disk with a Samsung EVO 500gb drive and Wowza!!! A quad core Intel I7 laptop with 8 gigs RAM, a moderately powerful video, and SSD running Windows 7. YES!!! Back to my mud hole, where I get actual work done. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is > totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and > a keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right > side of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to > appear on my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, > I should be so concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI > appearance is really the most important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 14:09:21 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:09:21 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> Message-ID: <00e101cf37e5$a2390cc0$e6ab2640$@winhaven.net> I use more key combos now than ever when working on a non-touch device. With a tablet or phone you pull an open app to the bottom and it closes them. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rusty Hammond Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:13 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 John, No problem shutting down those apps when you're done with them. Just press Alt+F4 - they haven't changed that keystroke combination yet. Don't ask why I remembered that one. Hadn't used it since I don't know when, but then I got Windows 8 installed ... oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? Rusty -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:22 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Cool!!! Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something mapped over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a specific button. Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am done with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which closes the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever used since you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop mode". And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. So Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe not even then. cur*mud*geon /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and who often complains Hmmmm... OK. And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ********************************************************************** WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. ********************************************************************** -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 14:09:21 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:09:21 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e201cf37e5$a2dacb00$e8906100$@winhaven.net> Lol - we were just discussing curmudgeon the other night with some young people. Wish I had this example to use ;-) I would agree with you on one major point. If we're going to have a "desktop mode" then make like it was. This little ditty (via Kathryn's referral) should help: "Classic Shell" http://tinyurl.com/lo3kbpk Make your Windows Vista/7/8/Server computers look like you want - all the same ;-) I'd have to check into the "Live Tiles" settings a bit to see if there is an option to turn them off when roaming about or using it as a hotspot. If you don't want them to ever be "Live" there is an option for that. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:22 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Cool!!! Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something mapped over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a specific button. Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am done with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which closes the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever used since you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop mode". And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. So Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe not even then. cur.mud.geon /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered and who often complains Hmmmm... OK. And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 14:19:28 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:19:28 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <53162D1C.6000505@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> <53162D1C.6000505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e901cf37e7$0c076ce0$241646a0$@winhaven.net> And you're complaining about Windows 8? Try doing any of the things you rip Windows 8 for on an Android device, lol! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:44 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 >>>oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? It matters not because I use Android phones and tablets. ;) John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 2:13 PM, Rusty Hammond wrote: > John, > > No problem shutting down those apps when you're done with them. Just > press Alt+F4 - they haven't changed that keystroke combination yet. > Don't ask why I remembered that one. > Hadn't used it since I don't know when, but then I got Windows 8 > installed ... oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet > or Windows phone? > > Rusty > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W > Colby > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:22 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Cool!!! > > Now get rid of the panes and give me back sizable Windows and I am > there. And of course a REAL start button with the start menu interface. > AND make sure that nothing I do ever yanks me back to the "modern" > interface without my actually hitting a NEW hotkey (not something > mapped over a hotkey used in the past for something else) or click a > specific button. > > Oh yea, an easy and understandable way to shut apps down when I am > done with them. Like maybe a bar at the top with a little X, which > closes the window when clicked. "Keep everything open that you ever > used since you rebooted last" is just a nonsensical thing to do on a desktop. > > Hmmmm sounds like Windows 7? OK, so give me Windows 7 in "Desktop > mode". > > And... I need to ensure that those "live tiles" are not constantly > pulling data over my cell phone, since I use my cell phone as my WiFi. > Constant crap being pulled into "Live Tiles" sounds like a constantly > escalating phone data bill to me. Verizon will love it, I will not. > So Live tiles ONLY LIVE when I am actually looking at them. And maybe > not even then. > > > cur*mud*geon > > /noun/\(?)k?r-?m?-j?n\ > > : a person (especially an old man) who is easily annoyed or angered > and who often complains > > > Hmmmm... OK. > > And here I thought I was just a Windows 7 Fanboi. > > John W. Colby > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/4/2014 12:47 PM, John Bartow wrote: >> Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck >> in the mud curmudgeons among us: >> http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ >> >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > ********************************************************************** > WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, > scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. > corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or > review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. > ********************************************************************** > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 14:41:23 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 15:41:23 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: <53163A73.4090905@gmail.com> Definition of/LUDDITE/ *:* one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest;/broadly/*:* one who is opposed to especially technological change Explain to me please how Windows 8 is a "labor saving machinery". And I work every day in a field where technological change happens around me and I use and adapt to it. WHEN AND WHERE IT WORKS FOR ME. Windows 8 is not the first, nor will it be the last "improvement" that doesn't work for me and I will not use. Windows 8 desktop mode is NOT what I was after. I worked with Pains 8.0 for two months. I worked in the "desktop". It sucked the whole time. It never got better. It was so annoying that when I had to get work done I switched to my old Wndows 7 computer. I had a brand new thousand dollar POWERFUL laptop intentionally crippled to look like a damned Windows phone. Windows 8 desktop is a lobotomized Windows 7. Intentionally crippled. I am happy you like it but that does not make it "labor saving" nor does it make ME a Luddite, a curmudgeon, or a fanbois of Windows 7. Go out and read the reviews for crying out loud. They all say essentially "If you like Windows 7, stay far far away from Windows 8", which pretty much sums it up. When it was time to buy a laptop I was not offered a choice of Windows 7 or Windows 8. I received Windows 8, and struggled for TWO DAMNED MONTHS. I hated my new laptop. I do not do social, I have no need for "Immersive" full screen calculators. I have no need or desire for "active tiles" feeding me ever changing content. Or for that matter "immersive" full screen browsers, text editors or anything else. I have no use for Panes as opposed to Windows. They are not better, they are AT MOST different, and in many cases for many purposes WORSE than real windows. But, as with the rest of the "modern UI 'improvements'", We are not given a choice. Suck it up and adapt. Why? "Improvements" are supposed to make things better, solve a problem. You do understand that the ENTIRE OBJECTIVE of Windows 8 is to make a unified UI that will work on the desktop, tablet and phone. They did in fact accomplish that. Of course "worked" is a relative term. The desktop does in fact still "work". It just doesn't "work" as well, depending on the feature set of Windows 7 that you used previously. The problem they solved was to make Windows work on a phone / tablet and desktop. That is not a problem that I need solved, and the changes that they made to "solve" a problem I didn't need solved made Windows 8 a PITA. I simply have no need for or use for the "improvements" which turned my laptop into a phone / tablet. I have no intention of EVER using a Windows phone, or tablet. And the "Modern UI" that I am left with in Windows 8 is seriously less capable (for me) than what it replaced. That is, simply put, a Win (for MS) / Lose (for me) situation. Your calling me a Luddite doesn't change that reality. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 3:05 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > > I have to tell you that it was a scary moment... > "Luddite moment"? ;) > > You could have just used to use [WindowKey] + [D] to get switched into Win8.x desktop mode... > > -- Shamil > > Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:20 PM -05:00 from John W Colby : >>> OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my >> gestures have any effect on my machines. >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From df.waters at comcast.net Tue Mar 4 15:18:23 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 15:18:23 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <53163A73.4090905@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> <53163A73.4090905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801cf37ef$4666fe20$d334fa60$@comcast.net> Hey! I like my Windows Phone! (Nokia Lumia 521 - $100) Well - let's see what's in Windows 9 ... Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 2:41 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Definition of/LUDDITE/ *:* one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest;/broadly/*:* one who is opposed to especially technological change Explain to me please how Windows 8 is a "labor saving machinery". And I work every day in a field where technological change happens around me and I use and adapt to it. WHEN AND WHERE IT WORKS FOR ME. Windows 8 is not the first, nor will it be the last "improvement" that doesn't work for me and I will not use. Windows 8 desktop mode is NOT what I was after. I worked with Pains 8.0 for two months. I worked in the "desktop". It sucked the whole time. It never got better. It was so annoying that when I had to get work done I switched to my old Wndows 7 computer. I had a brand new thousand dollar POWERFUL laptop intentionally crippled to look like a damned Windows phone. Windows 8 desktop is a lobotomized Windows 7. Intentionally crippled. I am happy you like it but that does not make it "labor saving" nor does it make ME a Luddite, a curmudgeon, or a fanbois of Windows 7. Go out and read the reviews for crying out loud. They all say essentially "If you like Windows 7, stay far far away from Windows 8", which pretty much sums it up. When it was time to buy a laptop I was not offered a choice of Windows 7 or Windows 8. I received Windows 8, and struggled for TWO DAMNED MONTHS. I hated my new laptop. I do not do social, I have no need for "Immersive" full screen calculators. I have no need or desire for "active tiles" feeding me ever changing content. Or for that matter "immersive" full screen browsers, text editors or anything else. I have no use for Panes as opposed to Windows. They are not better, they are AT MOST different, and in many cases for many purposes WORSE than real windows. But, as with the rest of the "modern UI 'improvements'", We are not given a choice. Suck it up and adapt. Why? "Improvements" are supposed to make things better, solve a problem. You do understand that the ENTIRE OBJECTIVE of Windows 8 is to make a unified UI that will work on the desktop, tablet and phone. They did in fact accomplish that. Of course "worked" is a relative term. The desktop does in fact still "work". It just doesn't "work" as well, depending on the feature set of Windows 7 that you used previously. The problem they solved was to make Windows work on a phone / tablet and desktop. That is not a problem that I need solved, and the changes that they made to "solve" a problem I didn't need solved made Windows 8 a PITA. I simply have no need for or use for the "improvements" which turned my laptop into a phone / tablet. I have no intention of EVER using a Windows phone, or tablet. And the "Modern UI" that I am left with in Windows 8 is seriously less capable (for me) than what it replaced. That is, simply put, a Win (for MS) / Lose (for me) situation. Your calling me a Luddite doesn't change that reality. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 3:05 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > > I have to tell you that it was a scary moment... > "Luddite moment"? ;) > > You could have just used to use [WindowKey] + [D] to get switched into Win8.x desktop mode... > > -- Shamil > > Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:20 PM -05:00 from John W Colby : >>> OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is >>> totally useless. None of my >> gestures have any effect on my machines. >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 4 15:20:06 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 01:20:06 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Windows_8?= In-Reply-To: <53163A73.4090905@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> <53163A73.4090905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1393968006.75837616@f66.i.mail.ru> Hi John -- > " Reality is what refuses to go away? when you do not believe in it" :) John, I have written "Luddite moment" I haven't called you a Luddite. I do not see a big difference/any (software development) performance slowdown between Win8 desktop mode and Win7. I could be missing something but I must tell you I have been using Win8.x for 1.5 years now on my development USD1500+ ASUS N76Vz laptop and it (win8) have been working well for me. > You do understand that the ?ENTIRE OBJECTIVE of Windows 8 is to make > a unified UI that will work on the desktop, tablet and? > phone. They did in fact accomplish that. Yes. > "Improvements" are supposed to make things better, solve a problem.? Yes. They have solved the problem of designing and implementing of a modern innovative UI for tablets, smartphones and laptops, as well as for smart-TVs, smart-watches etc. Desktop mode is left for development, for legacy software - it will be phased out in... 10 years? -- Shamil Tuesday, March 4, 2014 3:41 PM -05:00 from John W Colby : > >????Definition of/LUDDITE/ > >*:* one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a >protest;/broadly/*:* one who is opposed to especially technological change > >Explain to me please how Windows 8 is a "labor saving machinery". And I work every day in a field >where technological change happens around me and I use and adapt to it. WHEN AND WHERE IT WORKS FOR >ME. Windows 8 is not the first, nor will it be the last "improvement" that doesn't work for me and >I will not use. > >Windows 8 desktop mode is NOT what I was after. I worked with Pains 8.0 for two months. I worked >in the "desktop". It sucked the whole time. It never got better. It was so annoying that when I >had to get work done I switched to my old Wndows 7 computer. I had a brand new thousand dollar >POWERFUL laptop intentionally crippled to look like a damned Windows phone. > >Windows 8 desktop is a lobotomized Windows 7. Intentionally crippled. I am happy you like it but >that does not make it "labor saving" nor does it make ME a Luddite, a curmudgeon, or a fanbois of >Windows 7. > >Go out and read the reviews for crying out loud. They all say essentially "If you like Windows 7, >stay far far away from Windows 8", which pretty much sums it up. When it was time to buy a laptop I >was not offered a choice of Windows 7 or Windows 8. I received Windows 8, and struggled for TWO >DAMNED MONTHS. I hated my new laptop. I do not do social, I have no need for "Immersive" full >screen calculators. I have no need or desire for "active tiles" feeding me ever changing content. >Or for that matter "immersive" full screen browsers, text editors or anything else. I have no use >for Panes as opposed to Windows. They are not better, they are AT MOST different, and in many cases >for many purposes WORSE than real windows. But, as with the rest of the "modern UI 'improvements'", >We are not given a choice. Suck it up and adapt. Why? > >"Improvements" are supposed to make things better, solve a problem. You do understand that the >ENTIRE OBJECTIVE of Windows 8 is to make a unified UI that will work on the desktop, tablet and >phone. They did in fact accomplish that. > >Of course "worked" is a relative term. The desktop does in fact still "work". It just doesn't >"work" as well, depending on the feature set of Windows 7 that you used previously. The problem >they solved was to make Windows work on a phone / tablet and desktop. That is not a problem that I >need solved, and the changes that they made to "solve" a problem I didn't need solved made Windows 8 >a PITA. > >I simply have no need for or use for the "improvements" which turned my laptop into a phone / >tablet. I have no intention of EVER using a Windows phone, or tablet. And the "Modern UI" that I >am left with in Windows 8 is seriously less capable (for me) than what it replaced. That is, simply >put, a Win (for MS) / Lose (for me) situation. > >Your calling me a Luddite doesn't change that reality. > >John W. Colby > >Reality is what refuses to go away >when you do not believe in it > >On 3/4/2014 3:05 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: >> > I have to tell you that it was a scary moment... >> "Luddite moment"? ;) >> >> You could have just used to use [WindowKey] + [D] to get switched into Win8.x desktop mode... >> >> -- Shamil >> >> Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:20 PM -05:00 from John W Colby < jwcolby at gmail.com >: >>>> OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally useless. None of my >>> gestures have any effect on my machines. >>> > -- ???????????? ?????? From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 4 15:33:26 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 14:33:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <535187516.5629944.1393968806262.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: For those of us who are still languishing on XP, Microsoft to the rescue. First XP will warn you so watch out for those downloads as the MS warning is more to scare the clients to move on. (I will to talking to them about taking the Linux challenge ;-)) Now Microsoft is doing what they should have done right at the get-go...giving out a free upgrade tool; not just upgrade to Windows 8.x but also to Windows 7! :-) IMHO, the tool should have copied the XP system to an ISO file and then automate a process that would install a virtual drive and the source ISO, on the destination computer. This would allow the client to slowly wean themselves (or not) off XP, while still secure and leaving them productive in the meantime. "Microsoft is also releasing a free transfer tool later this week that?s designed to migrate data from an old PC to a new device running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1." http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/3/5465208/windows-xp-support-pop-up-messages Jim From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 16:22:02 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 17:22:02 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <00e901cf37e7$0c076ce0$241646a0$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> <53162D1C.6000505@gmail.com> <00e901cf37e7$0c076ce0$241646a0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <5316520A.3010107@gmail.com> >>>And you're complaining about Windows 8? Try doing any of the things you rip Windows 8 for on an Android device, lol! LOL that is exactly my point John, my android device is NOT my desktop. I do NOT TRY to do them on my android device. I have no need or desire to do them there. In fact, many things that I do on my desktop are DIFFICULT to do on my android device, and those SAME THINGS are now difficult to do on Windows 8 desktops, where they were not difficult on Windows 7 desktops. THAT is NOT a win!!! I have an android pad, a very nice Asus TF300, and an Android Phone, a very nice Samsung S3. I do not, and will never try to do work on those. I bought a thousand dollar quad core I7 laptop to work on, and I have NO INTENTION of lobotomizing it with Windows 8X. This is a MICROSOFT problem, not having a viable phone / pad OS. Their solution to THEIR problem was to hose my desktop experience. I will freely admit that I am not a kiddie getting on to run facebook and watch youtube videos. My daughter took to Windows 8 like a duck to water. All the swipe / pinch thingies that work on my android pad work on Windows 7. She doesn't care or probably even notice that everything is forced to full screen. But I do. It gets in my way. She doesn't even know that a task bar exists. But I do and AFAICT the Windows 8 taskbar doesn't work the same as the Windows 7 taskbar. And I used the very functionally that MS stripped out. In all of these discussions, NOBODY has EVER thrown out any "must have" for Windows 8; THIS is why you SHOULD be going to Windows 8. Furthermore, and even more telling, in all of the reviews of Windows 8 out there on the internet, there is a similar silence on reasons why I should be moving to Windows 8. All that has happened so far is that I have been called a Fanbois (of Windows 7), a "Stuck in the mud curmudgeon" and a Luddite. All by folks who use and love Windows 8, and whom I have told "Cool, glad you like it". An attack on the person is always an indication of an absence of valid argument in the discussion. And the reasons to use such "attacks" probably has to do with the very real "adjustments" that these Win 8 users had to make, and their distaste for having been forced to make those adjustments. Why else would anyone care enough that I refuse to join the bandwagon to call me names? I absolutely don't care if you or anyone else uses Windows 8. I have used "fanboi" simply because another poster was aiming that at me. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 3:19 PM, John Bartow wrote: > And you're complaining about Windows 8? Try doing any of the things you rip > Windows 8 for on an Android device, lol! > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:44 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > >>>oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? > > It matters not because I use Android phones and tablets. > > ;) > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 16:33:33 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 17:33:33 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> >>>They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) No they are NOT. A window has horizontal and VERTICAL handles for adjustment. Panes are ALWAYS full height. A window can be positioned anywhere on the screen. A Pane is always docked to one side or the other, or to the pane next to it. A Pane is a lobotomized window with no variable vertical dimension and no ability to place it where I want. It is "Immersive" LOL. Which means MS has "Immersed" YOU in their bullshit until you forget what you used to have, ignore the reality and believe it is "better". Not having gone through the pain of drowning in the MS bullshit and accepting whatever it is they want me to believe, I have become... a Luddite curmudgeon Windows 7 fanbois. Oh well... I'll have to live with that I guess. ;) John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 3:09 PM, John Bartow wrote: > They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 17:01:34 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:01:34 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <1393963552.88792728@f168.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: <010a01cf37fd$b14841f0$13d8c5d0$@winhaven.net> LOL - that?s change! Are you kidding me? -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Salakhetdinov Shamil Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 2:06 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > I have to tell you that it was a scary moment... "Luddite moment"? ;) You could have just used to use [WindowKey] + [D] to get switched into Win8.x desktop mode... -- Shamil Tuesday, March 4, 2014 2:20 PM -05:00 from John W Colby : >>OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is >>totally useless. None of my >gestures have any effect on my machines. > >"Flipping off" a machine definitely does not work! ;) OTOH a hammer seems to work. > > >With some effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > >Well... in a word ... NO. > >Windows 8 did away with Windows. We expect that the next version of >the operating system will be called Panes 9. Or to the curmudgeonly >masses, PAINS 9. ;) > >Panes of course are lobotomized windows. They MUST run the full height >of the display. They have no controls related to minimizing, or >adjusting the vertical size. In 8.0 they snapped to a fixed (by MS?) size if you tried to have more than one. > >So with Windows (Panes) 8, you were allowed TWO panes. The horizontal >sizes appeared to be fixed, i.e. yes you could have them, but they >would be THIS EXACT WIDTH. Which led to a tall narrow pane and whatever was left of the screen. Why this is a good idea I will leave to the Fanbois to explain. > >With Windows (Panes) 8.1, they loosened up a bit and allowed more panes. Home many more you ask? >Well... what is the resolution of your monitor? It seems that the >number of horizontal pixels determines the number you can have. I will >let a fanboi jump into this to explain how it works, since I decided if >I can't have Windows I am outa here. But from what I remember, the >higher the >(horizontal) resolution the larger the number of (full height) panes >you could have. Why any of this is superior to actual Windows (on a desktop) I will leave to the Windows 8 Fanbois to explain. >I assume it has to do with making your dual monitor desktop look and act like a windows phone. >Hmmmmm..... (this wasn't MY idea!!!) > >Understand that I left the Windows (Panes / Pains) 8 scene about 30 >minutes after downloading 8.1 and discovered that it seemed to suck as bad as the 8.0 version. > >I have to tell you that it was a scary moment taking my 1000 dollar >brand new laptop and doing a Windows 7 install on it. HP had told me >essentially that they did not support Windows 7 on my new laptop, and >that I was on my own. After the install it took probably a day of >researching chipset drivers and downloading them to get all of the >objects under device manager functioning. But it worked. I even have >touch enabled. I then swapped out the shitty 5400 RPM notebook disk with a Samsung EVO 500gb drive and Wowza!!! A quad core Intel I7 laptop with 8 gigs RAM, a moderately powerful video, and SSD running Windows 7. > >YES!!! > >Back to my mud hole, where I get actual work done. > >John W. Colby > >Reality is what refuses to go away >when you do not believe in it ><<< skipped >>> -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 17:21:53 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:21:53 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316520A.3010107@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <531619C6.6030204@gmail.com> <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D950B06@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> <53162D1C.6000505@gmail.com> <00e901cf37e7$0c076ce0$241646a0$@winhaven.net> <5316520A.3010107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011401cf3800$88041c80$980c5580$@winhaven.net> Whoa! Hold on there John, we're just razzing you. We're doing the same over on the OT list to Alan so some of this is getting crossed up in traffic and thinking. BUT it's all been in jest on both lists. Really, who cares what someone else uses? Well, unless they're a customer that is. I still support mostly Windows 7 (80%) with some foot draggers on Windows XP (19%) and a few on Win2k/NT and just yesterday I had to Frankenstein together a PC-DOS system because it is being used for accounting. My main system is Windows 7, I have either a PC or a VM with every other version and I use a Windows 8 Surface Tablet while on the move. I have considered moving to Windows 8 on my main but I just haven't had the time, nor as you have so eloquently stated, the need ;-) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 4:22 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 >>>And you're complaining about Windows 8? Try doing any of the things you rip Windows 8 for on an Android device, lol! LOL that is exactly my point John, my android device is NOT my desktop. I do NOT TRY to do them on my android device. I have no need or desire to do them there. In fact, many things that I do on my desktop are DIFFICULT to do on my android device, and those SAME THINGS are now difficult to do on Windows 8 desktops, where they were not difficult on Windows 7 desktops. THAT is NOT a win!!! I have an android pad, a very nice Asus TF300, and an Android Phone, a very nice Samsung S3. I do not, and will never try to do work on those. I bought a thousand dollar quad core I7 laptop to work on, and I have NO INTENTION of lobotomizing it with Windows 8X. This is a MICROSOFT problem, not having a viable phone / pad OS. Their solution to THEIR problem was to hose my desktop experience. I will freely admit that I am not a kiddie getting on to run facebook and watch youtube videos. My daughter took to Windows 8 like a duck to water. All the swipe / pinch thingies that work on my android pad work on Windows 7. She doesn't care or probably even notice that everything is forced to full screen. But I do. It gets in my way. She doesn't even know that a task bar exists. But I do and AFAICT the Windows 8 taskbar doesn't work the same as the Windows 7 taskbar. And I used the very functionally that MS stripped out. In all of these discussions, NOBODY has EVER thrown out any "must have" for Windows 8; THIS is why you SHOULD be going to Windows 8. Furthermore, and even more telling, in all of the reviews of Windows 8 out there on the internet, there is a similar silence on reasons why I should be moving to Windows 8. All that has happened so far is that I have been called a Fanbois (of Windows 7), a "Stuck in the mud curmudgeon" and a Luddite. All by folks who use and love Windows 8, and whom I have told "Cool, glad you like it". An attack on the person is always an indication of an absence of valid argument in the discussion. And the reasons to use such "attacks" probably has to do with the very real "adjustments" that these Win 8 users had to make, and their distaste for having been forced to make those adjustments. Why else would anyone care enough that I refuse to join the bandwagon to call me names? I absolutely don't care if you or anyone else uses Windows 8. I have used "fanboi" simply because another poster was aiming that at me. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 3:19 PM, John Bartow wrote: > And you're complaining about Windows 8? Try doing any of the things > you rip Windows 8 for on an Android device, lol! > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W > Colby > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:44 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > >>>oh wait, are those keys available on a surface tablet or Windows phone? > > It matters not because I use Android phones and tablets. > > ;) > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 17:21:53 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:21:53 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011301cf3800$878a0a80$969e1f80$@winhaven.net> Well, then you're in good company here ;-) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 4:34 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Not having gone through the pain of drowning in the MS bullshit and accepting whatever it is they want me to believe, I have become... a Luddite curmudgeon Windows 7 fanbois. Oh well... I'll have to live with that I guess. ;) John W. Colby From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 4 19:48:48 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:48:48 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <535187516.5629944.1393968806262.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, <535187516.5629944.1393968806262.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <53168280.3432.1363C93D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> But will it transfer installed applications which use the Registry and components in different "well know folder" locations as well? Or will everything have to be re-installed/ upgraded/ repurchased (especially MS Office) -- Stuart On 4 Mar 2014 at 14:33, Jim Lawrence wrote: > "Microsoft is also releasing a free transfer tool later this week > that?s designed to migrate data from an old PC to a new device > running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1." > > http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/3/5465208/windows-xp-support-pop-up-mes > sages > From davidmcafee at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:34:05 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 18:34:05 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] THANKS!!! RE: Converting case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kathryn, you are very welcome. I wish I had more time to help out with some of the other stuff. I'll try to take a look at the SQL stuff later this week. Thanks, David On Mar 3, 2014 9:18 AM, "Kathryn Bassett" wrote: > I wanted to publicly thank David McAfee for the personal touch. Last night > he came over to my house and did a hands-on tutorial on how to use his > code. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd- > > bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > > Sent: 26 Feb 2014 1:08 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Converting case > > > > In addition to UCase, and VB ProperCase, I created one years ago. > > I never liked the way Proper Case worked. > > > > My code is fugly, but it works. I updated the SQL version a few years > ago > > (but never uploaded it on Roger's site) > > > > Anyway, if you'd like to try it you can download it from: > > http://www.rogersaccesslibrary.com/forum/proper-case- > > function_topic166.html > > > > Here's a sample of input and outputs: > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 4 20:39:06 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 19:39:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <53168280.3432.1363C93D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <1695157159.5839879.1393987146419.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Stuart: I just don't know???? If you hear or read anything one way or the other please post. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart McLachlan" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Tuesday, 4 March, 2014 5:48:48 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 But will it transfer installed applications which use the Registry and components in different "well know folder" locations as well? Or will everything have to be re-installed/ upgraded/ repurchased (especially MS Office) -- Stuart On 4 Mar 2014 at 14:33, Jim Lawrence wrote: > "Microsoft is also releasing a free transfer tool later this week > that?s designed to migrate data from an old PC to a new device > running Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1." > > http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/3/5465208/windows-xp-support-pop-up-mes > sages > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:51:20 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:51:20 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: The tale is in the numbers. 7 is the perfect number. 8 a crazy one, Google eyes at a 90 degree angle. 9 may be a universal number but trying to be all things to all people has never worked. Windows could have stopped at 7. I think Big Business and government will conspire to leave MS in droves, and for good too, if MS "forces" them to upgrade through dropping support for Win 7. Win 8 is too radical a departure from what people want on the desktop, and not (arguably) beneficial the way the ribbon was (a learning curve but some benefit at the end of the discovery/learning curve). Win 8 offers no benefit to users except change for change's sake. It was like putting a bidet next to a sink so people who like to read on the toilet will want to read in the kitchen (yes that makes no sense as an analogy and therefore marvelously appropo). I tried it and hated it, pure gilded crap. On Mar 4, 2014 5:34 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >>>They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) > > No they are NOT. A window has horizontal and VERTICAL handles for > adjustment. Panes are ALWAYS full height. A window can be positioned > anywhere on the screen. A Pane is always docked to one side or the other, > or to the pane next to it. > > A Pane is a lobotomized window with no variable vertical dimension and no > ability to place it where I want. > > It is "Immersive" LOL. Which means MS has "Immersed" YOU in their > bullshit until you forget what you used to have, ignore the reality and > believe it is "better". > > Not having gone through the pain of drowning in the MS bullshit and > accepting whatever it is they want me to believe, I have become... a > Luddite curmudgeon Windows 7 fanbois. > > Oh well... I'll have to live with that I guess. ;) > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/4/2014 3:09 PM, John Bartow wrote: > >> They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Tue Mar 4 21:12:59 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:12:59 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Bill, You nailed it with " The tale is in the numbers." I am talking the actual installations and revenue of Windows 7 vs Windows 8.x. Which is in itself a clear reflection of customer demand. Have a look at << http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0>> The customer has spoken so loudly that PC makers have jumped up and taken notice. << http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/20/5326844/hp-brings-back-windows-7-by-popular-demand>> Ok, some folks like W8, but many more don't see a value proposition in there. You can defend it as much as you like, but the fact is it is a commercial failure. W7 has about 47% of the market. Amazingly, XP still has about 29% of the market. W8 and W8.1 just have around 10%. It is clear that not many folks like it or see any productive gain in upgrading. And I would guess that a large chunk of that 10% of W8 users and Mum and Dad types who purchased a new PC with W8 pre installed and don't know any better. Windows 8 is confused mess. In trying to be all things to all users and platforms - it ends up doing nothing well. That is my opinion anyway. Perhaps W9 will be better. Dunno. I personally loathe this current trend of dumbing everything down and hiding (or worse, removing) functionality. W8, not a fan. Cheers Darryl. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 1:51 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 The tale is in the numbers. 7 is the perfect number. 8 a crazy one, Google eyes at a 90 degree angle. 9 may be a universal number but trying to be all things to all people has never worked. Windows could have stopped at 7. I think Big Business and government will conspire to leave MS in droves, and for good too, if MS "forces" them to upgrade through dropping support for Win 7. Win 8 is too radical a departure from what people want on the desktop, and not (arguably) beneficial the way the ribbon was (a learning curve but some benefit at the end of the discovery/learning curve). Win 8 offers no benefit to users except change for change's sake. It was like putting a bidet next to a sink so people who like to read on the toilet will want to read in the kitchen (yes that makes no sense as an analogy and therefore marvelously appropo). I tried it and hated it, pure gilded crap. On Mar 4, 2014 5:34 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >>>They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) > > No they are NOT. A window has horizontal and VERTICAL handles for > adjustment. Panes are ALWAYS full height. A window can be positioned > anywhere on the screen. A Pane is always docked to one side or the > other, or to the pane next to it. > > A Pane is a lobotomized window with no variable vertical dimension and > no ability to place it where I want. > > It is "Immersive" LOL. Which means MS has "Immersed" YOU in their > bullshit until you forget what you used to have, ignore the reality > and believe it is "better". > > Not having gone through the pain of drowning in the MS bullshit and > accepting whatever it is they want me to believe, I have become... a > Luddite curmudgeon Windows 7 fanbois. > > Oh well... I'll have to live with that I guess. ;) > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/4/2014 3:09 PM, John Bartow wrote: > >> They're just horizontally sliding windows now ;-) >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:51:27 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 22:51:27 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <53169F3F.6000504@gmail.com> OK, now I am bummed. I spent good money on a Windows 7 disk / license to "regress" my HP laptop from Windows 8 back to Windows 7. I bought this thing in late October or early November. OTOH I am thrilled with the resulting machine, particularly after replacing the 5400 rpm 1 terabyte laptop drive to a 500 gb Samsung Evo SSD. I am here to tell you that the SSD and Windows 7 made it a smokin' machine that I am thrilled to own! In fact I can't remember ever being this happy with a laptop. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 10:12 PM, Darryl Collins wrote: > Bill, > > You nailed it with " The tale is in the numbers." I am talking the actual installations and revenue of Windows 7 vs Windows 8.x. Which is in itself a clear reflection of customer demand. > > Have a look at > << http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0>> > > > The customer has spoken so loudly that PC makers have jumped up and taken notice. > << http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/20/5326844/hp-brings-back-windows-7-by-popular-demand>> > > Ok, some folks like W8, but many more don't see a value proposition in there. You can defend it as much as you like, but the fact is it is a commercial failure. > > W7 has about 47% of the market. > Amazingly, XP still has about 29% of the market. > W8 and W8.1 just have around 10%. > > It is clear that not many folks like it or see any productive gain in upgrading. And I would guess that a large chunk of that 10% of W8 users and Mum and Dad types who purchased a new PC with W8 pre installed and don't know any better. > > Windows 8 is confused mess. In trying to be all things to all users and platforms - it ends up doing nothing well. That is my opinion anyway. > > Perhaps W9 will be better. Dunno. I personally loathe this current trend of dumbing everything down and hiding (or worse, removing) functionality. > > W8, not a fan. > > Cheers > Darryl. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:55:30 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:55:30 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that compilation? ;) It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac software combined. I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore maybe? From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Tue Mar 4 22:07:06 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 04:07:06 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer market. I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs W8.1 percentage? -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that compilation? ;) It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac software combined. I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 22:14:28 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 23:14:28 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: If only going back and forth did not involve completely reinstalling ALL productivity software, profiles (including Outlook IMAP settings). If documents survive upgrades, why can't programs just be patched between major OS releases. I just HATE starting over, it is complete BS, I am sure commercial software could do better, and that there ought to be a plug and play approach to OS upgrading where you attach a hose to your circulatory system, transfuse your blood, but don't have to transplant all your organs again. Sheesh. Rubbish! Life disrupting nonsense. On Mar 4, 2014 11:08 PM, "Darryl Collins" wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that is > for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of some > early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from the Shop > when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes with. It is > clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority of the PC > customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and that is a widely > unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I would really love to see > Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I would bet that the W8 installs > are widely biased towards the consumer market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are not > reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to my "mum > and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not tech savvy, > what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the table, > just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you did because it > surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a couple years. Weird. I > took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the store where I bought it. I > wonder if sales are one way in that compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share gain in > a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers and the > public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due to the fact > that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore maybe? > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 4 22:16:24 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 14:16:24 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, , <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of corporate purchases). -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and > that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I > would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I > would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer > market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs > W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that > compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore > maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 22:27:08 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 23:27:08 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: That is one reason I do not like these studies, there is little explanation or analysis accompanying the dara. For example an answer to the question whether a post-sales purchase of W7 displaces the W8 purchase and shores up the W7 percentage. I believe that installed base is more meaningful than market share because if I buy a W8 machine because that's how it comes equipped, only to throw away the OS and put on an aftermarket copy of W7 for $80-100 from eBay, then the W8 numbers are misleading. Still new hardware, it's just a cost of using good tools (W7). On Mar 4, 2014 11:17 PM, "Stuart McLachlan" wrote: > The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with > Win8 ( essentailly > every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It > doesn't tell you how > many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast > majority of corporate > purchases). > > -- > Stuart > > On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: > > > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and > > that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I > > would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I > > would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer > > market. > > > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs > > W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion > > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that > > compilation? > > > > ;) > > > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > > software combined. > > > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore > > maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Tue Mar 4 22:36:54 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 04:36:54 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <65ffde260bd846a7a1c33290e2ecccdb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Yeah, I have to agree with you here Bill. I have often been annoyed at how completely disruptive and time consuming installing an new OS can be. I would have thought there was a better way, but given I know bugger all about the nuts and bolts of releasing an OS, I always assume if there was an easier better way, they would have done it. I do know a lot of folks have split drives with OS on one, Programs on another and data on the 3rd. Sort of useful, but still no helpful if you need to update/reinstall the whole OS. I suspect half of the motivation of getting users to update the OS was to sell you a new PC as well. A nice cosy arrangement for both Vendors (hardware and software). Dunno. Maybe I have my tin foil hat on this afternoon... Cheers Darryl. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 3:14 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 If only going back and forth did not involve completely reinstalling ALL productivity software, profiles (including Outlook IMAP settings). If documents survive upgrades, why can't programs just be patched between major OS releases. I just HATE starting over, it is complete BS, I am sure commercial software could do better, and that there ought to be a plug and play approach to OS upgrading where you attach a hose to your circulatory system, transfuse your blood, but don't have to transplant all your organs again. Sheesh. Rubbish! Life disrupting nonsense. On Mar 4, 2014 11:08 PM, "Darryl Collins" wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and that is a widely > unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I would really love to see > Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I would bet that the W8 > installs are widely biased towards the consumer market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore maybe? > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 22:45:26 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:45:26 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, , <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <5316ABE6.4080009@gmail.com> Well yes, except that there are numbers harvested by polling browsers as they hit the web pages out there. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 11:16 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 ( essentailly > every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how > many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of corporate > purchases). > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 22:56:45 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:56:45 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> <5316278B.30204@gmail.com> <00e001cf37e5$a1c38ea0$e54aabe0$@winhaven.net> <531654BD.4030404@gmail.com> <15d825a8f5924e688f2e41d99618ca88@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <019301cf382f$4ffb95a0$eff2c0e0$@winhaven.net> I agree. Completely absurd. I've tried those "PC mover" programs and each time they've made a mess of it so I've just accepted the absurdity and just reinstall all of the programs. All the while grumbling how absurd it is. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:14 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 If only going back and forth did not involve completely reinstalling ALL productivity software, profiles (including Outlook IMAP settings). If documents survive upgrades, why can't programs just be patched between major OS releases. I just HATE starting over, it is complete BS, I am sure commercial software could do better, and that there ought to be a plug and play approach to OS upgrading where you attach a hose to your circulatory system, transfuse your blood, but don't have to transplant all your organs again. Sheesh. Rubbish! Life disrupting nonsense. On Mar 4, 2014 11:08 PM, "Darryl Collins" wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and that is a widely > unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I would really love to see > Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I would bet that the W8 > installs are widely biased towards the consumer market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore maybe? > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Tue Mar 4 22:56:45 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:56:45 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, , <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> Corporate buyers shouldn't be getting Windows 8 preinstalled. I haven't sold a business computer with it yet. So unless corporations are buying consumer models from consumer outlets (which would be ridiculous) they can still have Windows 7 Pro preinstalled. Business partners with the big OEMs have much more flexibility than consumers markets. Even my small business clients get Win7 preinstalled, just ordered 3 today like that. I don't see an end in sight for this option. As for U.S. consumers regressing to Windows 7 - not unless they're complete geeks. They've been brainwashed by the press to hate windows in the first place. But the average consumer could care less. They're the reason this stuff is dumbed down so far. They've been using iPads and Android tablets for a while now. They don't expect Windows anymore. Its more convenient for them to see the 3 icons they actually use (browser, email, solitaire) on their computers and just click on or touch those. Even the 70 & 80 year olds I've dealt with have no problems with Windows 8 Metro UI. But then again, I don't make an issue out of it with them. It is what it is. And it is on their PC. At least they're not stuck using Safari. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:16 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of corporate purchases). -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and > that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I > would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I > would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer > market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs > W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that > compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore > maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 4 23:10:01 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:10:01 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316ABE6.4080009@gmail.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <5316ABE6.4080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5316B1A9.2184.141C00B5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Ok, I guess I should have looked at the original link. But if that is the case, the figures are likely to be even more distorted in favour of consumer rather than business machines.. Any web browsing tally ignores the huge pool of corprate machines which don't have direct access to the web. How many of those machines at IBM that you have been involved with recently have direct web access? -- Stuart On 4 Mar 2014 at 23:45, John W Colby wrote: > Well yes, except that there are numbers harvested by polling browsers > as they hit the web pages out there. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/4/2014 11:16 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > > The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally > > with Win8 ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction > > i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer > > regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of > > corporate purchases). > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Wed Mar 5 01:35:28 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 23:35:28 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id535886823?mt=8 - Hans > On Mar 4, 2014, at 8:56 PM, "John Bartow" wrote: > > Corporate buyers shouldn't be getting Windows 8 preinstalled. I haven't sold > a business computer with it yet. So unless corporations are buying consumer > models from consumer outlets (which would be ridiculous) they can still have > Windows 7 Pro preinstalled. Business partners with the big OEMs have much > more flexibility than consumers markets. Even my small business clients get > Win7 preinstalled, just ordered 3 today like that. I don't see an end in > sight for this option. > > As for U.S. consumers regressing to Windows 7 - not unless they're complete > geeks. They've been brainwashed by the press to hate windows in the first > place. But the average consumer could care less. They're the reason this > stuff is dumbed down so far. They've been using iPads and Android tablets > for a while now. They don't expect Windows anymore. Its more convenient for > them to see the 3 icons they actually use (browser, email, solitaire) on > their computers and just click on or touch those. Even the 70 & 80 year olds > I've dealt with have no problems with Windows 8 Metro UI. But then again, I > don't make an issue out of it with them. It is what it is. And it is on > their PC. At least they're not stuck using Safari. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:16 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 > ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 > licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers > (which would be the vast majority of corporate purchases). > > -- > Stuart > >> On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: >> >> Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that >> is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of >> some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from >> the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes >> with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority >> of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and >> that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I >> would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I >> would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer >> market. >> >> I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the >> W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better >> experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are >> not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to >> my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not >> tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs >> W8.1 percentage? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson >> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion >> and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 >> >> Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the >> table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you >> did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a >> couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the >> store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that >> compilation? >> >> ;) >> >> It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac >> software combined. >> >> I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share >> gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers >> and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due >> to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore >> maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 03:45:39 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:45:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <49314891.5983203.1394012739322.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: According to a friend still working in the banking sector as a support tech, it seems the whole industry is finally moving...moving from XP to Windows 7. Business is always a few versions behind. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bartow" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:56:45 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Corporate buyers shouldn't be getting Windows 8 preinstalled. I haven't sold a business computer with it yet. So unless corporations are buying consumer models from consumer outlets (which would be ridiculous) they can still have Windows 7 Pro preinstalled. Business partners with the big OEMs have much more flexibility than consumers markets. Even my small business clients get Win7 preinstalled, just ordered 3 today like that. I don't see an end in sight for this option. As for U.S. consumers regressing to Windows 7 - not unless they're complete geeks. They've been brainwashed by the press to hate windows in the first place. But the average consumer could care less. They're the reason this stuff is dumbed down so far. They've been using iPads and Android tablets for a while now. They don't expect Windows anymore. Its more convenient for them to see the 3 icons they actually use (browser, email, solitaire) on their computers and just click on or touch those. Even the 70 & 80 year olds I've dealt with have no problems with Windows 8 Metro UI. But then again, I don't make an issue out of it with them. It is what it is. And it is on their PC. At least they're not stuck using Safari. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:16 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of corporate purchases). -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and > that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I > would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I > would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer > market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs > W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that > compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore > maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 04:12:11 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:12:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <49314891.5983203.1394012739322.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <726630869.5989313.1394014331218.JavaMail.root@cds018> Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft ;-) Jim From hans.andersen at phulse.com Wed Mar 5 04:18:48 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:18:48 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <726630869.5989313.1394014331218.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <726630869.5989313.1394014331218.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <5011C388-BE3C-4911-A83B-43596F899685@phulse.com> Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 5 04:38:43 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 20:38:43 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5011C388-BE3C-4911-A83B-43596F899685@phulse.com> References: <726630869.5989313.1394014331218.JavaMail.root@cds018>, <5011C388-BE3C-4911-A83B-43596F899685@phulse.com> Message-ID: <5316FEB3.19013.1548EFBA@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Come on Hans! "When I contacted Linus for his input on this news, on 1st April, he just smiled at me" -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 2:18, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, > though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the > kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is > the issue. > > - Hans > > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > > > ;-) > > > > Jim > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 05:02:19 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 04:02:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5011C388-BE3C-4911-A83B-43596F899685@phulse.com> Message-ID: <1603598562.5999298.1394017339728.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Hans: Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 5 05:04:07 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:04:07 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) Message-ID: <34fce3e52d81451a9060a9ad409033e7@AM3PR06MB305.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi J?rgen Thanks for the update! Lots of challenges I must say. On a much smaller scale we run Office 365 here as well, mostly for mail which is a challenge by itself due its very aggressive spam filtering. You cannot say it doesn't work as It leaves zero spam but I've found that this is because it cuts some good mails as well, mostly from fora while mailing lists like this are untouched. What I still can't get my head around is SharePoint. Maybe it is just me - but I don't think so - but I just can't find the angle to "attach" it. Quite frustrating as I feel it has a lot of potential. With your much better resources, I'm sure you will succeed. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Jurgen Welz Sendt: 4. marts 2014 19:26 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) Gustav: I haven't really been lurking as I've rarely read anything posted to this list. I never did unsubscribe though. You are right about the insert shortcut. It works for Excel 2010 and 2013. I could have sworn it didn't. In fact, I did swear a lot. I'd been managing safety for the construction company I've been with since 2006 and hired my younger brother in 2010 to take over the Access development I was involved with when I was first joined the list. We are now splitting from the parent company and their former security obsession that had hindered our software independence. The result is a new safety manager is in place and I've been back in the IT world since mid December. We plan to go live with a completely new infrastructure as soon as the parent allows the split. They have been involved in a multi-million dollar SAP implementation for their 3 billion dollar annual volume business and we have been implementing an integrated software package that interfaces with our estimating system to take over payroll, accounting, purchasing and accounts payable by April 1. No irony in that date, but realistically, we won't be allowed to leave until they can get some meaningful data out of SAP. They don't currently have the resources to make that happen nor have they been able to get meaningful and accurate reporting that meet our needs. We'll be lucky if we can go our separate ways by May. Chances are, we'll take a best guess, saw off the projects that are active on a given date and then make adjustments when they figure out their end. We've cut our business to 5 offices in western Canada with 50 users supporting about 300 field workers today. We will be using Office 365 in a cloud deployment and will be colocating in a data center. Figuring out the Microsoft licensing for the cores on SQL Server, client access licensing, terminals, exchange, software assurance (or not) has been challenging but it's all coming together. Infiniband, SSDs and spinning disks, back up power, inter connectivity, an office without fibre, new phone systems. Once we're up, then it's work on Sharepoint and connect our exisiting MS Access system to our new software, implement a Sharepoint environment, build a web interface for field entry of time, purchasing and cost coding, and then lastly, move our MS Access system into dot Net. Exciting times. Ciao J?rgen Welz Edmonton, Alberta jwelz at hotmail.com > From: gustav at cactus.dk > To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com > Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 08:08:36 +0000 > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Office shortcuts (was: Ramblings of a nutcase) > > Hi J?rgen > > So you are still here ... after lurking for 2? years. Great! > > However, with Excel 2010, if I press Alt+i, a tip pops up telling that I can continue using the shortcuts. Then, still holding Alt, I press r, and the row is inserted, but only from the current column and onwards. > Shift+Space, Ctrl++ will insert a full row (from and including column A) no matter which column is current. So these two actions are not fully identical. > > If you have Access in mind, pressing Ctrl++ directly will move you to a new record. > > So is something missing from your installation? > > /gustav > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Jurgen Welz > Sendt: 3. marts 2014 20:38 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: Re: [AccessD] Ramblings of a nutcase > > I was happy until they started messing with the keyboard shortcuts. Office began the downward spiral with the ribbon. I used to be able to insert a row with alt i, r. Now it's shift space, ctrl +. It was 3 keys on a typical keyboard turned to 4 (one key with your hands away from the home row) and 5 keys with my laptop (add shift = to get the +). > > > > I'd start any application I needed with the Windows key and a single other key (the first letter of the application- I'd just rename so the shortcut worked). > > > I fail to understand the need to lose the old capability. It's not like it couldn't coexist. Windows 8 is negatively impacting productivity and there was never any need for it to do so. If the task bar takes up too much real estate on a screen, I can't help but wonder what braniac came up with the ribbon menu. Put that on a 21:9 widescreen monitor.. I've taken to setting up dual screens with one vertical and one horizontal. > > > Ciao > > J?rgen Welz > > Edmonton, Alberta > > jwelz at hotmail.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Wed Mar 5 05:05:05 2014 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:05:05 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1603598562.5999298.1394017339728.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <5011C388-BE3C-4911-A83B-43596F899685@phulse.com> <1603598562.5999298.1394017339728.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB08295A12D23EF7F@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> I didn't see anything that said it was going to be Open Source? Did I miss something? Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 11:02 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi Hans: Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 5 05:10:19 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:10:19 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Message-ID: <75af261d223d405291daf5ac6cc6f221@AM3PR06MB305.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi John No he is just non-receptive - as I was labelled by the super mod at UtterAccess. Stay away from that sect, should you ever feel tempted to join. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John W Colby Sendt: 4. marts 2014 19:09 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Rocky, You seem to have a bad attitude. You must be a "stuck in the mud curmudgeon"? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/4/2014 1:01 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is > totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and > a keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right > side of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to > appear on my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, > I should be so concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI > appearance is really the most important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bartow > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:47 AM > To: dba-ot at databaseadvisors.com; DBA-Tech; DBA-Access > Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Here's a very brief explanation of how to use Windows 8 for the stuck > in the mud curmudgeons among us: > http://watchmojo.com/video/id/11365/ From gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 5 05:28:06 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:28:06 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Message-ID: Hi John Just remember to turn off defragging of your drive. Old OS'es don't know about SSDs. Or do reinstall Windows 8 as this will adjust this setting automatically. Windows 8 also knows about iso files. Just double-click to open. Did I mention that Windows 8 is an improved version of Windows 7? /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John W Colby Sendt: 5. marts 2014 04:51 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 OK, now I am bummed. I spent good money on a Windows 7 disk / license to "regress" my HP laptop from Windows 8 back to Windows 7. I bought this thing in late October or early November. OTOH I am thrilled with the resulting machine, particularly after replacing the 5400 rpm 1 terabyte laptop drive to a 500 gb Samsung Evo SSD. I am here to tell you that the SSD and Windows 7 made it a smokin' machine that I am thrilled to own! In fact I can't remember ever being this happy with a laptop. John W. Colby From gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 5 05:34:46 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:34:46 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Message-ID: Hi Darryl Then switch to Windows 8 and an SSD. A few clicks and you're done. This operation has really improved. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Darryl Collins Sendt: 5. marts 2014 05:37 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Yeah, I have to agree with you here Bill. I have often been annoyed at how completely disruptive and time consuming installing an new OS can be. I would have thought there was a better way, but given I know bugger all about the nuts and bolts of releasing an OS, I always assume if there was an easier better way, they would have done it. I do know a lot of folks have split drives with OS on one, Programs on another and data on the 3rd. Sort of useful, but still no helpful if you need to update/reinstall the whole OS. I suspect half of the motivation of getting users to update the OS was to sell you a new PC as well. A nice cosy arrangement for both Vendors (hardware and software). Dunno. Maybe I have my tin foil hat on this afternoon... Cheers Darryl. From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 06:49:39 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 07:49:39 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53171D63.6050202@gmail.com> >>>Did I mention that Windows 8 is an improved version of Windows 7? ROTFL, I believe you did. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/5/2014 6:28 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Just remember to turn off defragging of your drive. Old OS'es don't know about SSDs. > Or do reinstall Windows 8 as this will adjust this setting automatically. > > Windows 8 also knows about iso files. Just double-click to open. > > Did I mention that Windows 8 is an improved version of Windows 7? > > /gustav > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John W Colby > Sendt: 5. marts 2014 04:51 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > OK, now I am bummed. I spent good money on a Windows 7 disk / license to "regress" my HP laptop from Windows 8 back to Windows 7. > > I bought this thing in late October or early November. > > OTOH I am thrilled with the resulting machine, particularly after replacing the 5400 rpm 1 terabyte laptop drive to a 500 gb Samsung Evo SSD. I am here to tell you that the SSD and Windows 7 made it a smokin' machine that I am thrilled to own! In fact I can't remember ever being this happy with a laptop. > > John W. Colby > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 08:30:54 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 09:30:54 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 7 Pro for $120 Message-ID: <5317351E.1040502@gmail.com> Limited time though so if you want it act now. http://promotions.newegg.com/neemail/guerrilla/LP/14-MAR/index-lp_iv8sedxS_05.html?nm_mc=EMC-GD030514&cm_mmc=EMC-GD030514-_-index-_-Header-_-SeeAll&et_cid=5781&et_rid=8919460 -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Wed Mar 5 09:52:50 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:52:50 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <49314891.5983203.1394012739322.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <49314891.5983203.1394012739322.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <007901cf388a$f6c87b90$e45972b0$@winhaven.net> Absolutely. The leading edge is the bleeding edge. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 3:46 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi John: According to a friend still working in the banking sector as a support tech, it seems the whole industry is finally moving...moving from XP to Windows 7. Business is always a few versions behind. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bartow" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:56:45 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Corporate buyers shouldn't be getting Windows 8 preinstalled. I haven't sold a business computer with it yet. So unless corporations are buying consumer models from consumer outlets (which would be ridiculous) they can still have Windows 7 Pro preinstalled. Business partners with the big OEMs have much more flexibility than consumers markets. Even my small business clients get Win7 preinstalled, just ordered 3 today like that. I don't see an end in sight for this option. As for U.S. consumers regressing to Windows 7 - not unless they're complete geeks. They've been brainwashed by the press to hate windows in the first place. But the average consumer could care less. They're the reason this stuff is dumbed down so far. They've been using iPads and Android tablets for a while now. They don't expect Windows anymore. Its more convenient for them to see the 3 icons they actually use (browser, email, solitaire) on their computers and just click on or touch those. Even the 70 & 80 year olds I've dealt with have no problems with Windows 8 Metro UI. But then again, I don't make an issue out of it with them. It is what it is. And it is on their PC. At least they're not stuck using Safari. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 10:16 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 The WIn8 numbers will include all the new machines sold nominally with Win8 ( essentailly every machine sold since its introduction i.e. with Win 8 licences). It doesn't tell you how many wer regressed to Win7 by the buyers (which would be the vast majority of corporate purchases). -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 4:07, Darryl Collins wrote: > Yeah, It puts the Mac (OS X PC at least) market into perspective that > is for sure. I would also guess that a the W8 numbers are made up of > some early adopters and testers, but mainly folks who just buy from > the Shop when their old PC dies and meekly accept whatever OS it comes > with. It is clear there is little enthusiasm for W8.x from majority > of the PC customers. I mean, even Vista has managed 3.1% share and > that is a widely unloved OS. Not that far behind W8.1 on 4.3%. I > would really love to see Enterprise/Business vs consumer in here. I > would bet that the W8 installs are widely biased towards the consumer > market. > > I would also suspect that much of the W8.1 number is cannibalising the > W8.0 percentage, given it is a free update and does offer a better > experience that W8. Even so - I am surprised that those number are > not reversed, more folks on 8.1 than 8.0. To me, that adds support to > my "mum and dads" theory on W8 user base. These folks are large not > tech savvy, what other explanation can there be to have a higher W8 vs > W8.1 percentage? > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2014 2:56 PM To: Access Developers discussion > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Darryl, I have to laugh that they bothered putting Win 98 in the > table, just to show it at 0.00%. I appreciate your posting what you > did because it surprised me 8 is as far along as it is, in just a > couple years. Weird. I took the only win 8 machine I owned back to the > store where I bought it. I wonder if sales are one way in that > compilation? > > ;) > > It was interesting to see Win 8/8+ has more market share than all Mac > software combined. > > I read that in Dec 2013 Win 7 had its biggest monthly market share > gain in a year, continuing to rise even while MS presses manufacturers > and the public to adopt 8.1. In my non industry expert guess it is due > to the fact that sales of XP are not commercially available anymore > maybe? -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Wed Mar 5 09:52:50 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:52:50 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> Message-ID: <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> Hans, I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to switch from ie8 on XP! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian Andersen Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id535886823?mt= 8 - Hans From jbartow at winhaven.net Wed Mar 5 10:03:00 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:03:00 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008401cf388c$626225d0$27267170$@winhaven.net> Or use the free Auslogics Defragger. It has the ability to hide SSDs and is easily scriptable and much faster than the built in defragger. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:28 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi John Just remember to turn off defragging of your drive. Old OS'es don't know about SSDs. Or do reinstall Windows 8 as this will adjust this setting automatically. Windows 8 also knows about iso files. Just double-click to open. Did I mention that Windows 8 is an improved version of Windows 7? /gustav From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 10:05:25 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:05:25 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <008401cf388c$626225d0$27267170$@winhaven.net> References: <008401cf388c$626225d0$27267170$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <53174B45.60005@gmail.com> I love that defragger! John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/5/2014 11:03 AM, John Bartow wrote: > Or use the free Auslogics Defragger. It has the ability to hide SSDs and is > easily scriptable and much faster than the built in defragger. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:28 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Hi John > > Just remember to turn off defragging of your drive. Old OS'es don't know > about SSDs. > Or do reinstall Windows 8 as this will adjust this setting automatically. > > Windows 8 also knows about iso files. Just double-click to open. > > Did I mention that Windows 8 is an improved version of Windows 7? > > /gustav > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 10:48:14 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:48:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB08295A12D23EF7F@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1910455695.6222774.1394038094532.JavaMail.root@cds018> Good morning Martin: Just wanted to see if you were there...but if Linus Torvalds was the head of Microsoft the most logical step would be to make the product OSS...especially if it is being given away, anyway. For security reasons of course and to guarantee better coding...nothing keeps the code guys on their toes when everyone in the world can get to criticize and add improvements to the code base. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 3:05:05 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 I didn't see anything that said it was going to be Open Source? Did I miss something? Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 11:02 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi Hans: Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 10:48:22 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:48:22 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5316FEB3.19013.1548EFBA@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <1991904497.6222930.1394038102247.JavaMail.root@cds018> :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart McLachlan" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:38:43 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Come on Hans! "When I contacted Linus for his input on this news, on 1st April, he just smiled at me" -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 2:18, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, > though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the > kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is > the issue. > > - Hans > > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > > > ;-) > > > > Jim > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Wed Mar 5 10:51:31 2014 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:51:31 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1910455695.6222774.1394038094532.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB08295A12D23EF7F@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <1910455695.6222774.1394038094532.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB08295A12D23F26B@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Hi Jim Almost quitting time here (<: But he isn't and I doubt they will go open source. Its Microsoft!!! Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 16:48 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Good morning Martin: Just wanted to see if you were there...but if Linus Torvalds was the head of Microsoft the most logical step would be to make the product OSS...especially if it is being given away, anyway. For security reasons of course and to guarantee better coding...nothing keeps the code guys on their toes when everyone in the world can get to criticize and add improvements to the code base. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 3:05:05 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 I didn't see anything that said it was going to be Open Source? Did I miss something? Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 11:02 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi Hans: Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 10:57:57 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:57:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB08295A12D23F26B@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1986148694.6233128.1394038677007.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Martin: For that, I would agree with you...I mean about Microsoft. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 8:51:31 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi Jim Almost quitting time here (<: But he isn't and I doubt they will go open source. Its Microsoft!!! Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 16:48 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Good morning Martin: Just wanted to see if you were there...but if Linus Torvalds was the head of Microsoft the most logical step would be to make the product OSS...especially if it is being given away, anyway. For security reasons of course and to guarantee better coding...nothing keeps the code guys on their toes when everyone in the world can get to criticize and add improvements to the code base. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 3:05:05 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 I didn't see anything that said it was going to be Open Source? Did I miss something? Martin -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: 05 March 2014 11:02 To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi Hans: Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. - Hans > On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. > > http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft > > ;-) > > Jim > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 13:59:30 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:59:30 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> Message-ID: Rocky, Turn off the live tiles. First thing I did when I got my Win 8 laptop. Then I cleared out all the tiles that MS thought I wanted and only showed tiles that are useful to me. With 8.1, I grouped tiles in various sizes into logical groupings. The only "live" tile on my start menu is Windows Store, and that's mainly because I keep forgetting to turn it off. My laptop loads the modern screen at startup and then switches to desktop. I do all my work from desktop. No gestures, I use a mouse and keyboard, thank you. In fact, I even prefer to use a wireless mouse and wireless keyboard with my Windows tablet PC. Embrace the borg. You WILL be assimilated! Charlotte On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is totally > useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and a > keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right side > of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to appear on > my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, I should be so > concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI appearance is really the most > important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Wed Mar 5 14:08:50 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:08:50 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1603598562.5999298.1394017339728.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1603598562.5999298.1394017339728.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Woke up in the middle of the night and thought to check my email to see if any thread about windows needed my opinion to be weighed in on. Par for the course. On another note, had to help a fellow developer today get set up with Apache, MySQL and PHP on Windows 8. Seeing as he?s the only developer here using Windows 8, there was no pre-existing documentation on how to do that. An utterly hostile experience. I ended up just installing VirtualBox and Debian and it works just fine. Poor dev spent a whole week trying to get things up and running to no avail. VirtualBox and Debian set up took a mere 2 hours to get fully going with everything additional compiled and configured. It?s 2014. Surely by now it should be easier than this, but I guess this just goes to show that most developers who work on anything other than the Microsoft stack (IIS, .NET, C#, MSSQL, etc) don?t choose Windows for development. They use Linux or OS X, hence why setting things up on those platforms are so much easier. Nice wallpaper, fyi. - Hans On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) > > http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg > > Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. > > - Hans > > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> >> Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. >> >> http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft >> >> ;-) >> >> Jim >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From hans.andersen at phulse.com Wed Mar 5 14:22:52 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:22:52 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> I?m well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I?m not sure that always holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome?s overall dominance of the market. There?s a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the best browser for downloading a better browser :p - Hans On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > Hans, > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't change > what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to switch from ie8 > on XP! > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian > Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id535886823?mt= > 8 > > - Hans > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Wed Mar 5 14:56:17 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:56:17 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net><2B73140174A64B73998D0F9D46AAA3BB@HAL9007> Message-ID: OK I almost wiped the disk yesterday and loaded W7 Ultimate but decided since I don't use the laptop much so I've decided to keep it and try to get used to it. For the present. It's on thin ice. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 12:00 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Rocky, Turn off the live tiles. First thing I did when I got my Win 8 laptop. Then I cleared out all the tiles that MS thought I wanted and only showed tiles that are useful to me. With 8.1, I grouped tiles in various sizes into logical groupings. The only "live" tile on my start menu is Windows Store, and that's mainly because I keep forgetting to turn it off. My laptop loads the modern screen at startup and then switches to desktop. I do all my work from desktop. No gestures, I use a mouse and keyboard, thank you. In fact, I even prefer to use a wireless mouse and wireless keyboard with my Windows tablet PC. Embrace the borg. You WILL be assimilated! Charlotte On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > OK, I learned a lot from that vid and I'm convinced - for me W8 is > totally useless. None of my gestures have any effect on my machines. > > Oh, he did say if I don't have touch screen I can plug in a mouse and > a keyboard and then...(wait for it)...IT'LL BE JUST LIKE WINDOWS 7! Woo-hoo! > > Thank you Microsoft for putting Windows 8 on my new laptop. With some > effort and learning curve I can enjoy all the advantages of W7. > > R > > P.S. Dear MS - that floaty little tool bar that comes out of the right > side of the touch screen. It only takes me 5 or 6 tries to get it to > appear on my standard display using a mouse. You're right, of course, > I should be so concerned about productivity. Elegance of GI > appearance is really the most important thing in an OS. The distraction of the 'live' tiles is terrific. > I could spend all day looking at them. > P.P.S. Get the hell out of my face and let me do some work! > P.P.P.S. I've got a gesture for you - Skype me and I'll show you. > > > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Wed Mar 5 15:02:38 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:02:38 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code References: <5317351E.1040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: All, We have a report that needs to be printed on a specific printer (let's call it Printer-B). One of our key users has her default printer set to Printer-A. Is it possible to temporarily change her default printer to Printer-B for the printing of a specific report and then change the default printer back to Printer-A after the report is printed? Thanks, Brad From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Mar 5 15:17:15 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:17:15 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code In-Reply-To: References: <5317351E.1040502@gmail.com> Message-ID: Google search VBA set default printer access Gets the following as N?1 link - hoping it will work in 2007 2010 & 2013 HansV MVP replied on April 29, 2012See post history Close MVP MCC: Content Creator You should be able to do something like this: Sub SwitchPrinter() Dim prt As Printer ' Get current default printer Set prt = Application.Printer ' Set default printer Application.Printer = Application.Printers("OtherPrinter") ' Print something, e.g. DoCmd.PrintOut ' Restore original printer Set Application.Printer = prt End Sub where OtherPrinter is the name of the required printer. To list the names of available printers, run the following code: Sub ListPrinters() Dim prt As Printer For Each prt In Printers Debug.Print prt.DeviceName Next prt End Sub The printer names will be listed in the Immediate window (press Ctrl+G to activate this window). JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:03 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code All, We have a report that needs to be printed on a specific printer (let's call it Printer-B). One of our key users has her default printer set to Printer-A. Is it possible to temporarily change her default printer to Printer-B for the printing of a specific report and then change the default printer back to Printer-A after the report is printed? Thanks, Brad -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 5 15:24:33 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 07:24:33 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code In-Reply-To: References: <5317351E.1040502@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <53179611.20277.1798353E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> If it has to be printed on a specfic printer, why not just configure the report to use that printer. (Report Design Tools - Page setup - Page - Use specific Printer) -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 15:02, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > We have a report that needs to be printed on a specific printer (let's > call it Printer-B). > > One of our key users has her default printer set to Printer-A. > > Is it possible to temporarily change her default printer to Printer-B > for the printing of a specific report and then change the default > printer back to Printer-A after the report is printed? > > Thanks, > Brad > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From BradM at blackforestltd.com Wed Mar 5 16:52:43 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:52:43 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code References: <5317351E.1040502@gmail.com>, <53179611.20277.1798353E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: James and Stuart, Thanks for the assistance, I appreciate it. Learned some new tricks today and now have a user who is all smiles. Doesn't get much better than that. Brad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 3:25 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] How to Change Default Printer via Access 2007 VBA Code If it has to be printed on a specfic printer, why not just configure the report to use that printer. (Report Design Tools - Page setup - Page - Use specific Printer) -- Stuart On 5 Mar 2014 at 15:02, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > We have a report that needs to be printed on a specific printer (let's > call it Printer-B). > > One of our key users has her default printer set to Printer-A. > > Is it possible to temporarily change her default printer to Printer-B > for the printing of a specific report and then change the default > printer back to Printer-A after the report is printed? > > Thanks, > Brad > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. Click here to report this message as spam. http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=2C5D628E34.C81FF From jbartow at winhaven.net Wed Mar 5 18:40:10 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:40:10 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> Message-ID: <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> IME the ones that do install another browser do it in large part due to Google's search or Gmail page constantly nagging them to download chrome. They have Firefox because I load it ;-) Another thing I've noticed lately is that most consumers no longer realize they can type a direct URL. They seem to think they have to search for everything. I've seen it go so far as typing google.com into Bing search. So sad . -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian Andersen Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:23 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 I'm well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I'm not sure that always holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome's overall dominance of the market. There's a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the best browser for downloading a better browser :p - Hans On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > Hans, > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't > change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to > switch from ie8 on XP! > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id5358868 > 23?mt= > 8 > > - Hans > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 20:27:41 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:27:41 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: Does this thread EVER die? LoL. I guess as the great Greek philosopher Hypocrites said, "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate". On Mar 5, 2014 7:41 PM, "John Bartow" wrote: > IME the ones that do install another browser do it in large part due to > Google's search or Gmail page constantly nagging them to download chrome. > They have Firefox because I load it ;-) > > Another thing I've noticed lately is that most consumers no longer realize > they can type a direct URL. They seem to think they have to search for > everything. I've seen it go so far as typing google.com into Bing search. > So > sad . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian > Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:23 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > I'm well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I'm not sure that always > holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome's overall > dominance > of the market. > > There's a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the > best browser for downloading a better browser > > :p > > - Hans > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > > > Hans, > > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't > > change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to > > switch from ie8 on XP! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > > Hans-Christian Andersen > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id5358868 > > 23?mt= > > 8 > > > > - Hans > > > > > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 20:30:59 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 21:30:59 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> Message-ID: <5317DDE3.3040806@gmail.com> Actually, with a fresh install of Windows anything, it is the ONLY browser for downloading a better browser. :) John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/5/2014 3:22 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > I?m well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I?m not sure that always holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome?s overall dominance of the market. > > There?s a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the best browser for downloading a better browser > > :p > > - Hans > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > >> Hans, >> I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't change >> what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to switch from ie8 >> on XP! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian >> Andersen >> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 >> >> >> https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id535886823?mt= >> 8 >> >> - Hans >> >> >> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 5 20:54:32 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 12:54:32 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net>, <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net>, Message-ID: <5317E368.17304.18C65246@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Or as Abraham Lincoln said: Eighty percent of quotations on the Internet are made up" On 5 Mar 2014 at 21:27, Bill Benson wrote: > Does this thread EVER die? LoL. > > I guess as the great Greek philosopher Hypocrites said, > "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate". From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 22:57:10 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:57:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1259293370.6729230.1394081830760.JavaMail.root@cds018> HI Bill: There has been this unearthly quiet about Windows 8.x for a while but the pending doom of XP and uncertainty about Window 7 is causing the thin veil of frustration to come to a head...It seems that most developers would be happy if Windows 8 disappeared like a fart in the wind. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 6:27:41 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Does this thread EVER die? LoL. I guess as the great Greek philosopher Hypocrites said, "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate". On Mar 5, 2014 7:41 PM, "John Bartow" wrote: > IME the ones that do install another browser do it in large part due to > Google's search or Gmail page constantly nagging them to download chrome. > They have Firefox because I load it ;-) > > Another thing I've noticed lately is that most consumers no longer realize > they can type a direct URL. They seem to think they have to search for > everything. I've seen it go so far as typing google.com into Bing search. > So > sad . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian > Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:23 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > I'm well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I'm not sure that always > holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome's overall > dominance > of the market. > > There's a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the > best browser for downloading a better browser > > :p > > - Hans > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > > > Hans, > > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't > > change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to > > switch from ie8 on XP! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > > Hans-Christian Andersen > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id5358868 > > 23?mt= > > 8 > > > > - Hans > > > > > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 5 23:21:03 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:21:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <376337039.6738756.1394083263304.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Hans: That does say something. If my Aunt was having problems setting up her mail program, I would understand that and blame her lack of knowledge of the platform...but when senior programmers can not even get the basics to run on a platform...my suggestion would be to throw out the platform. I am afraid this era in Microsoft's evolution will be looked back on, in years to come, with dread...the company must realize by now that the time when MS could dictate the course of the expanding PC market is over. This is the age of making software run and be able to allow software to run on any platform. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 12:08:50 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Woke up in the middle of the night and thought to check my email to see if any thread about windows needed my opinion to be weighed in on. Par for the course. On another note, had to help a fellow developer today get set up with Apache, MySQL and PHP on Windows 8. Seeing as he?s the only developer here using Windows 8, there was no pre-existing documentation on how to do that. An utterly hostile experience. I ended up just installing VirtualBox and Debian and it works just fine. Poor dev spent a whole week trying to get things up and running to no avail. VirtualBox and Debian set up took a mere 2 hours to get fully going with everything additional compiled and configured. It?s 2014. Surely by now it should be easier than this, but I guess this just goes to show that most developers who work on anything other than the Microsoft stack (IIS, .NET, C#, MSSQL, etc) don?t choose Windows for development. They use Linux or OS X, hence why setting things up on those platforms are so much easier. Nice wallpaper, fyi. - Hans On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Question: What are you doing up at this time of night? (I have an excuse; I'm retired and was just installing the latest version of Ubuntu. ;-) > > http://itsfoss.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Ubuntu_1404_wallpaper.jpeg > > Just think of the OSS Windows 8-9 as just another distro whose UI could be rebuilt or re-installed at whim. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hans-Christian Andersen" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 2:18:48 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > Ironically, that might not be a bad idea for Microsoft. Unfortunately, though, Windows' biggest issues are not the underlying OS (the kernel). It is the user interface and the product development that is the issue. > > - Hans > > >> On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:12 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> >> Windows 9 will be an Open Source project. >> >> http://itsfoss.com/linus-torvalds-to-join-microsoft >> >> ;-) >> >> Jim >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 6 01:11:52 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:11:52 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 Message-ID: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi all If you are serious about upgrading from XP directly to the current level, here is how: Migrating from Windows XP to Windows 8.1 http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/migrating-from-windows-xp-to-windows-8-1 /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John Bartow Sendt: 5. marts 2014 16:53 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Absolutely. The leading edge is the bleeding edge. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 3:46 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi John: According to a friend still working in the banking sector as a support tech, it seems the whole industry is finally moving...moving from XP to Windows 7. Business is always a few versions behind. Jim From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 6 05:26:38 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:26:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <642639027.6822370.1394105198665.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Gustav: Thank you for that link. Just received a request for information to accomplish same so I will pass the article link along. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gustav Brock" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, 5 March, 2014 11:11:52 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi all If you are serious about upgrading from XP directly to the current level, here is how: Migrating from Windows XP to Windows 8.1 http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/migrating-from-windows-xp-to-windows-8-1 /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John Bartow Sendt: 5. marts 2014 16:53 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Absolutely. The leading edge is the bleeding edge. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 3:46 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 Hi John: According to a friend still working in the banking sector as a support tech, it seems the whole industry is finally moving...moving from XP to Windows 7. Business is always a few versions behind. Jim -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 07:11:57 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 08:11:57 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> I am putting together a couple of more courses to accompany those: But before we get into tho that, let's start with the Serenity Prayer, you're gonna need it. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change The courage to change the things I can And the wisdom to know the difference. And now to the list 1) Learning a new vocabulary. How to swear in public without offending those around you. 2) Anger management for the Windows 8.1 user 3) Zen and the art of actually doing anything useful with Windows 8.1 4) How to make Windows 8 look and feel like Windows 7. 278 tips, tricks and third party apps to download to finally get back to work. 5) Regressing your PC to Windows 7. When all else fails, how to wipe the abortion slick and start over. 6) Party time, what to do (and not to do) when you've finally come to terms with the mess. 7) Making a list of your worst enemies to recommend Windows 8 to, and how to convince them to use it. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 2:11 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi all > > If you are serious about upgrading from XP directly to the current level, here is how: > > Migrating from Windows XP to Windows 8.1 > http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/migrating-from-windows-xp-to-windows-8-1 > > /gustav --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 08:42:52 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:42:52 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: I use Chrome by preference. I tried Firefox and didn't like it any better than IE. Different strokes, I suppose. Charlotte On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:40 PM, John Bartow wrote: > IME the ones that do install another browser do it in large part due to > Google's search or Gmail page constantly nagging them to download chrome. > They have Firefox because I load it ;-) > > Another thing I've noticed lately is that most consumers no longer realize > they can type a direct URL. They seem to think they have to search for > everything. I've seen it go so far as typing google.com into Bing search. > So > sad . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian > Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:23 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > I'm well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I'm not sure that always > holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome's overall > dominance > of the market. > > There's a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is the > best browser for downloading a better browser > > :p > > - Hans > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > > > Hans, > > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't > > change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to > > switch from ie8 on XP! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > > Hans-Christian Andersen > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id5358868 > > 23?mt= > > 8 > > > > - Hans > > > > > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jbartow at winhaven.net Thu Mar 6 12:48:17 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 12:48:17 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <009901cf396c$a3db6770$eb923650$@winhaven.net> Absolutely! The reason competition is good - it generally gives us more choices... and there will always be a product that makes something look like it used to for those that can't change at all ;-) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:43 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 I use Chrome by preference. I tried Firefox and didn't like it any better than IE. Different strokes, I suppose. Charlotte On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:40 PM, John Bartow wrote: > IME the ones that do install another browser do it in large part due > to Google's search or Gmail page constantly nagging them to download chrome. > They have Firefox because I load it ;-) > > Another thing I've noticed lately is that most consumers no longer > realize they can type a direct URL. They seem to think they have to > search for everything. I've seen it go so far as typing google.com into Bing search. > So > sad . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 2:23 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > I'm well aware of the tyranny of the default, but I'm not sure that > always holds true when you look at browser stats and see Chrome's > overall dominance of the market. > > There's a joke among us pretentious IE bashers: Internet Explorer is > the best browser for downloading a better browser > > :p > > - Hans > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:52 AM, John Bartow wrote: > > > Hans, > > I realize there are alternatives but the majority of consumers don't > > change what comes with the PC/Mac. I have trouble getting them to > > switch from ie8 on XP! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > > Hans-Christian Andersen > > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 1:35 AM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Windows 8 > > > > > > https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google/id53588 > > 68 > > 23?mt= > > 8 > > > > - Hans > > > > > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From parino at flash.net Thu Mar 6 18:15:46 2014 From: parino at flash.net (Jim Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:15:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Message-ID: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ?Just a note to publicly thank Stuart for sharing several messages with me to correct my ability to properly access records. The following changes were made to fix my ComboBox problem: File Definition 1)? The?primary key indicators were removed from the LastName and FirstName fields in the File Definition and the AutoNum field was changed to the primary key.? For the ComoboBox: 1) Row Source was changed from ??- SELECT [TAGHSMembership].[LastName], [TAGHSMembership].[FirstName] FROM [TAGHSMembership]; to ???- SELECT TAGHSMembership.LastName, TAGHSMembership.FirstName, TAGHSMembership.AutoNum FROM TAGHSMembership ORDER BY TAGHSMembership.LastName, TAGHSMembership.FirstName; 2) Changed the "Column Count" and "Bound Column" to "3".? That meant that the " value" of the combobox was the AutoNum of the selected item. 3) Opened the After_update code and change: ???? - Me.RecordsetClone.FindFirst "[LastName] = '" & Me![Combo70] & "'" to ?????- Me.RecordsetClone.FindFirst "Autonum = " & Combo70 Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 18:43:29 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:43:29 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> A "meaningless" autonumber used as a PK is called a surrogate key. It is a widely used strategy for a lot of reasons. 1) Multi-field PKs (the surrogate key alternative) ends up using much more resources, storage and computational, due to storage of the key in Foreign Keys in child tables (and grandchild / great grandchild etc). 2) Long integers are able to be compared using single instructions vs software based string comparisons (for text field multi-field PKs). 3) Multi-field PKs are often based on business rules, which can change over time, causing additional fields to be required to uniquely define the record, causing massive headaches in table maintenance (adding the fields to indexes, and adding additional fields to child FKs). Contrast this with a surrogate key where the PK never ever changes, it is always just a (usually) auto-incrementing integer. An integer in the parent table, an integer in the child table and NOTHING in the grandchild table. This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. The overhead and so forth just makes such constructs very unwieldy, and so, just as an example, I (personally and individually) pretty much NEVER use anything other than an autonumber surrogate PK. When I design a table, the very first thing I do is create the surrogate PK. It is just "habit" (but intentional) and always works. BE WARNED HOWEVER that using a surrogate key does not remove the responsibility of analyzing the data to determine what REALLY makes each record unique, and placing a unique index on that group of fields in order to prevent the same record from being entered multiple times. A surrogate key HAS a unique index (by definition) but that index is not THE unique index required to prevent dupes from creeping into your database. And be aware that yes, you will indeed need to do much more "joining" of tables to pull data from various levels in the tables. There is no free lunch. Surrogates are just (IMO) a much lower cost lunch. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 7:15 PM, Jim Barrett wrote: > Just a note to publicly thank Stuart for sharing several messages with me to correct my ability to properly access records. > > The following changes were made to fix my ComboBox problem: > > File Definition > 1) The primary key indicators were removed from the LastName and FirstName fields in the File Definition and the AutoNum field was changed to the primary key. > > For the ComoboBox: > 1) Row Source was changed from > - SELECT [TAGHSMembership].[LastName], [TAGHSMembership].[FirstName] FROM [TAGHSMembership]; > to > > - SELECT TAGHSMembership.LastName, TAGHSMembership.FirstName, TAGHSMembership.AutoNum FROM TAGHSMembership ORDER BY TAGHSMembership.LastName, TAGHSMembership.FirstName; > > 2) Changed the "Column Count" and "Bound Column" to "3". That meant that the " value" of the combobox was the AutoNum of the selected item. > 3) Opened the After_update code and change: > > - Me.RecordsetClone.FindFirst "[LastName] = '" & Me![Combo70] & "'" > to > - Me.RecordsetClone.FindFirst "Autonum = " & Combo70 > > Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 19:02:03 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:02:03 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) D From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 19:56:27 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:56:27 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com> Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If you are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off first. AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational database is distributed in more than one location via replication and (2) when some transactions are created client-side then handed back to the server via web methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, but in some situations reliable whereas getting the next higher number through autonumber (or a sequence on the database) may not be so. As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross tables? If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a Publication, I can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping track only of CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered The Economist, then I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions table of FKCustomerID and FKPublicationID. Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders The Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex situation, it would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be FKRecipientID and we arrive at the same deduction: we really do not need a SubscriptionID and it serves no purpose either in terms of speeding up the database, nor giving us any descriptive information. For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would ask, how so? -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) D -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From parino at flash.net Thu Mar 6 21:06:09 2014 From: parino at flash.net (Jim Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:06:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1394161569.78901.YahooMailNeo@web185001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Reality is I'm an old timer and the solution worked for me.? I'm a happy camper! Jim Barrett - Timpson, TX >________________________________ > From: John W Colby >To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 6:43 PM >Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > >This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth.? Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain.? Both are true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > > >John W. Colby > >Reality is what refuses to go away >when you do not believe in it > > > From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 21:12:17 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:12:17 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <009901cf396c$a3db6770$eb923650$@winhaven.net> References: <00b501cf37d1$c7bc4250$5734c6f0$@winhaven.net> <5b25b3caa4244f9080107bf2c1964c09@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <5316A518.22785.13EAE7D7@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <019401cf382f$5068fd70$f13af850$@winhaven.net> <727E63EA-C4B1-49F4-9F4E-76A07CACC466@phulse.com> <007a01cf388a$f74dd830$e5e98890$@winhaven.net> <69857FF6-74EC-40EF-8128-FB4B3A66D1A3@phulse.com> <011801cf38d4$a156b470$e4041d50$@winhaven.net> <009901cf396c$a3db6770$eb923650$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: >>and there will always be a product that makes something look like it used to for those that can't change at all ;-) ROTFLMAO! Don't point that thing at John! LOL Charlotte On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:48 AM, John Bartow wrote: > Absolutely! The reason competition is good - it generally gives us more > choices... > > and there will always be a product that makes something look like it used > to > for those that can't change at all ;-) > > > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 6 21:47:31 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:47:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> Just to add a little more... Many of the systems I worked on were POS systems which all required a accounting component. Therefore no records could be deleted...they were just set to non-display and the invoices had to numbered in sequential order...so the numbering was supplied under program control so there never was any auto-numbering. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 2014 5:56:27 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If you are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off first. AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational database is distributed in more than one location via replication and (2) when some transactions are created client-side then handed back to the server via web methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, but in some situations reliable whereas getting the next higher number through autonumber (or a sequence on the database) may not be so. As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross tables? If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a Publication, I can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping track only of CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered The Economist, then I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions table of FKCustomerID and FKPublicationID. Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders The Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex situation, it would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be FKRecipientID and we arrive at the same deduction: we really do not need a SubscriptionID and it serves no purpose either in terms of speeding up the database, nor giving us any descriptive information. For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would ask, how so? -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) D -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Thu Mar 6 21:49:18 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 13:49:18 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531941BE.29811.1E1ED057@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> GUID? I agree - very good for replication and/or multi remote data input locations. Not just web based either - email, ftp, offline tablets returned to base and data transfer via USB sticks from remote locations are all common scenarios. As for cross tables, I agree with you. I differentiate between tables which store Entity and Link (Cross) data. Surrogate PKs on the former are standard. In the latter case, they are only useful if the connection between entities has properties which should be stored in a child table. But as soon as the link has such properties it becomes an Entity in its own right and I would use a SurrogatePK -- Stuart On 6 Mar 2014 at 20:56, Bill Benson wrote: > Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own > experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If > you are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off > first. > > AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational > database is distributed in more than one location via replication and > (2) when some transactions are created client-side then handed back to > the server via web methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, > but in some situations reliable whereas getting the next higher number > through autonumber (or a sequence on the database) may not be so. > > As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross > tables? > > If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a > Publication, I can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping > track only of CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered > The Economist, then I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions > table of FKCustomerID and FKPublicationID. > > Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders > The Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex > situation, it would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be > FKRecipientID and we arrive at the same deduction: we really do not > need a SubscriptionID and it serves no purpose either in terms of > speeding up the database, nor giving us any descriptive information. > > For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would > ask, how so? > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Thu Mar 6 21:59:44 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 13:59:44 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com>, <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <53194430.11402.1E286140@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Autonumbering of visible/meaningful Invoice Numbers is definitely a no-no. It *will* result in gaps. Application generated Invoice Numbers according to business rules combiined with autonumbering of a surrogate PK for each invoice which end users never see is a definite "yes-yes" :-) -- Stuart On 6 Mar 2014 at 20:47, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Just to add a little more... > > Many of the systems I worked on were POS systems which all required a > accounting component. Therefore no records could be deleted...they > were just set to non-display and the invoices had to numbered in > sequential order...so the numbering was supplied under program control > so there never was any auto-numbering. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 2014 5:56:27 > PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own > experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If > you are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off > first. > > AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational > database is distributed in more than one location via replication and > (2) when some transactions are created client-side then handed back to > the server via web methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, > but in some situations reliable whereas getting the next higher number > through autonumber (or a sequence on the database) may not be so. > > As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross > tables? > > If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a > Publication, I can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping > track only of CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered > The Economist, then I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions > table of FKCustomerID and FKPublicationID. > > Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders > The Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex > situation, it would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be > FKRecipientID and we arrive at the same deduction: we really do not > need a SubscriptionID and it serves no purpose either in terms of > speeding up the database, nor giving us any descriptive information. > > For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would > ask, how so? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David > McAfee Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:02 PM To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File > Changes > > > This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" > from databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try > to argue that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / > grandchild / great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in > the multi-field PK, which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and > so forth. Additionally the "values" can often be pulled for reporting > and the like, without requiring joins back up the chain. Both are > true, but not (IMO) make up for the overhead and headaches that > multi-field PKs bring with them. > > John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. The young whipper > snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is very anal > about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > > I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how > my stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > > D > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 22:31:29 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:31:29 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <53194430.11402.1E286140@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com>, <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> <53194430.11402.1E286140@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <53194BA1.1030606@gmail.com> LOL. Such narrow vision. The invoice number can exist side by side with the surrogate key. In fact many of us will tell you that if your clients are SEEING your autonumbers you are doing things wrong. Autonumbers are just the mechanics of the database. They are NEVER data. So yep, I would have an autonumber (hidden) and the Invoice number, generated however you like, but NEVER used as the PK. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 10:59 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Autonumbering of visible/meaningful Invoice Numbers is definitely a no-no. It *will* result in > gaps. > > Application generated Invoice Numbers according to business rules combiined with > autonumbering of a surrogate PK for each invoice which end users never see is a definite > "yes-yes" :-) > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 22:38:39 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:38:39 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <832117245.7550280.1394164051901.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <53194D4F.1030706@gmail.com> ROTFL. There was never any autonumbering because they didn't understand the concept. They aren't "either / or". The PK / FK should NEVER be seen by the user. EVER. They are nothing more than a convenient construct for generating pointers between records in tables. I have been doing databases for 20 years and I have never seen a table (other than replication issues) where an autonumber didn't work for that. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 10:47 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Just to add a little more... > > Many of the systems I worked on were POS systems which all required a accounting component. Therefore no records could be deleted...they were just set to non-display and the invoices had to numbered in sequential order...so the numbering was supplied under program control so there never was any auto-numbering. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 2014 5:56:27 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own > experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If you > are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off first. > > AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational database is > distributed in more than one location via replication and (2) when some > transactions are created client-side then handed back to the server via web > methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, but in some situations > reliable whereas getting the next higher number through autonumber (or a > sequence on the database) may not be so. > > As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross tables? > > If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a Publication, I > can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping track only of > CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered The Economist, then > I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions table of FKCustomerID and > FKPublicationID. > > Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders The > Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex situation, it > would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be FKRecipientID and we arrive > at the same deduction: we really do not need a SubscriptionID and it serves > no purpose either in terms of speeding up the database, nor giving us any > descriptive information. > > For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would ask, how > so? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 8:02 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from > databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue > that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, > which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally > the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > > > John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is > very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > > I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > > D --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 22:42:52 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:42:52 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a single instruction. Two GUIDs will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to perform the same compare. Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to integers. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: > > This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from > databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue > that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, > which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally > the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > > > John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is > very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > > I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > > D --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Thu Mar 6 22:50:29 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:50:29 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <53194BA1.1030606@gmail.com> References: <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com>, <53194430.11402.1E286140@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <53194BA1.1030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53195015.32246.1E56D4BB@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Who's got the narrow vision? You and I are saying exatly the same hting. On 6 Mar 2014 at 23:31, John W Colby wrote: > LOL. Such narrow vision. The invoice number can exist side by side > with the surrogate key. In fact many of us will tell you that if your > clients are SEEING your autonumbers you are doing things wrong. > > Autonumbers are just the mechanics of the database. They are NEVER > data. > > So yep, I would have an autonumber (hidden) and the Invoice number, > generated however you like, but NEVER used as the PK. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/6/2014 10:59 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > > Autonumbering of visible/meaningful Invoice Numbers is definitely a > > no-no. It *will* result in gaps. > > > > Application generated Invoice Numbers according to business rules > > combiined with autonumbering of a surrogate PK for each invoice > > which end users never see is a definite "yes-yes" :-) > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 22:54:58 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 23:54:58 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for all records created before and/or after another record, without having to compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. How else could I sit on record with RecordID = ######## and find the very next previous record? All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are constructed, only that they are essentially "random"...?? Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a single instruction. Two GUIDs will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to perform the same compare. Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to integers. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: > > This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from > databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue > that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, > which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally > the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > > > John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is > very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > > I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > > D --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 7 01:14:46 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 00:14:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1547023118.7620851.1394176486307.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Benson: That is why it is so important to have a central internet/phone accessible database, that handles the account and invoice numbers, especially if your are intending or have a invoicing system that extends across the country. Auto-number is just a local phenomenon and would cause key data collision if ever used as a PK. Traditionally, all clients have a copy of all invoices created in the entire system but can only view or access (update) those records they create. Sometimes, a site may be given a batch of numbers so the breaks in numbering sequence are less obvious. Keeping transaction numbers for accounting records can be even more complex...one invoice will only ever have a single invoice number but every change in the data must be reflected in the item list (added, updated or deleted) and subsequently in the accounts receivable record. This is very important so a corrupted record can easily be rebuilt or any invalid transaction can be easily traced. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 2014 8:54:58 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for all records created before and/or after another record, without having to compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. How else could I sit on record with RecordID = ######## and find the very next previous record? All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are constructed, only that they are essentially "random"...?? Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a single instruction. Two GUIDs will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to perform the same compare. Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to integers. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: > > This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from > databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue > that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, > which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally > the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > > > John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and is > very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > > I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > > D --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Fri Mar 7 05:41:20 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 06:41:20 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: < > next previous record?>> Well one problem with that is that you really can't. AN's can roll over to negative numbers, So your check may not be valid at some point. For all practical purposes it's true (the rollover point is quite large), but I have seen a Jet db corrupt and as a result, the AN seed jump to an extremely high number. Second problem is that the key is no longer meaningless. You've encoded the "entry order" in the value of the key. You can't change the key without destroying the information it represents. GUID creation does involve the time as part of the calc, but that doesn't allow you to treat them as sequenced numbers. Jim Sent from my iPhone On Mar 6, 2014, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for all > records created before and/or after another record, without having to > compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have > *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. > > > > All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. > > If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. > > But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are constructed, > only that they are essentially "random"...?? > > Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a single > instruction. Two GUIDs > will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to > perform the same compare. > Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to integers. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: >> >> This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" from >> databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to argue >> that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / >> great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field PK, >> which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. Additionally >> the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without >> requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up >> for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. >> >> >> John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using >> autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. >> The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and > is >> very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. >> >> I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my >> stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) >> >> D > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 7 06:29:03 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 12:29:03 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Also I have had a situation happen to me twice with an MS Access database we had a table which used an autonumber field as the PK, in this table deletions were allowed, so we could have a case where you could get 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11 as PK's but this was ok, the problems came when we started having regular crashes before we moved to SQL with VB6 front-end, I would compact and repair the Access database and let everyone go back in and a couple of times I got a call saying there had been an error, and it would involve this table with the autonumber as a PK, it seems that Access would get confused and if you use the sequence of numbers earlier as an example it would try starting at 6 this would be ok, then for the next record it would try using 7 but seven exists so errors would occur, this happened a couple of times where the autonumber would try restarting from an earlier number that was missing. Paul On 7 March 2014 11:41, Jim Dettman wrote: > < > > > next previous record?>> > > Well one problem with that is that you really can't. AN's can roll over > to negative numbers, So your check may not be valid at some point. For > all practical purposes it's true (the rollover point is quite large), but > I have seen a Jet db corrupt and as a result, the AN seed jump to an > extremely high number. > > Second problem is that the key is no longer meaningless. You've encoded > the "entry order" in the value of the key. > > You can't change the key without destroying the information it represents. > > GUID creation does involve the time as part of the calc, but that doesn't > allow you to treat them as sequenced numbers. > > Jim > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 6, 2014, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > > > I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for > all > > records created before and/or after another record, without having to > > compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have > > *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. > > > > > > > > All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. > > > > If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. > > > > But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are > constructed, > > only that they are essentially "random"...?? > > > > Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > > Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a > single > > instruction. Two GUIDs > > will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to > > perform the same compare. > > Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to > integers. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: > >> > >> This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" > from > >> databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to > argue > >> that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > >> great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field > PK, > >> which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. > Additionally > >> the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > >> requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > >> for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > >> > >> > >> John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > >> autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > >> The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and > > is > >> very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > >> > >> I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > >> stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > >> > >> D > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 06:48:35 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:48:35 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5319C023.5040100@gmail.com> IIRC that was a bug that was eventually fixed? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 7:29 AM, Paul Hartland wrote: > Also I have had a situation happen to me twice with an MS Access database > we had a table which used an autonumber field as the PK, in this table > deletions were allowed, so we could have a case where you could get 1, 2, > 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11 as PK's but this was ok, the problems came when we > started having regular crashes before we moved to SQL with VB6 front-end, I > would compact and repair the Access database and let everyone go back in > and a couple of times I got a call saying there had been an error, and it > would involve this table with the autonumber as a PK, it seems that Access > would get confused and if you use the sequence of numbers earlier as an > example it would try starting at 6 this would be ok, then for the next > record it would try using 7 but seven exists so errors would occur, this > happened a couple of times where the autonumber would try restarting from > an earlier number that was missing. > > Paul > > > On 7 March 2014 11:41, Jim Dettman wrote: > >> <>> next previous record?>> >> Well one problem with that is that you really can't. AN's can roll over >> to negative numbers, So your check may not be valid at some point. For >> all practical purposes it's true (the rollover point is quite large), but >> I have seen a Jet db corrupt and as a result, the AN seed jump to an >> extremely high number. >> >> Second problem is that the key is no longer meaningless. You've encoded >> the "entry order" in the value of the key. >> >> You can't change the key without destroying the information it represents. >> >> GUID creation does involve the time as part of the calc, but that doesn't >> allow you to treat them as sequenced numbers. >> >> Jim >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 6, 2014, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: >> >>> I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for >> all >>> records created before and/or after another record, without having to >>> compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have >>> *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. >>> >>> >>> >>> All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. >>> >>> If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. >>> >>> But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are >> constructed, >>> only that they are essentially "random"...?? >>> >>> Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby >>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM >>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes >>> >>> Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a >> single >>> instruction. Two GUIDs >>> will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to >>> perform the same compare. >>> Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to >> integers. >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: >>>> >>>> This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" >> from >>>> databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to >> argue >>>> that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / >>>> great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field >> PK, >>>> which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. >> Additionally >>>> the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without >>>> requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up >>>> for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. >>>> >>>> >>>> John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using >>>> autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. >>>> The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and >>> is >>>> very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. >>>> >>>> I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my >>>> stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) >>>> >>>> D >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 7 07:26:26 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 13:26:26 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <5319C023.5040100@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <5319C023.5040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah that's sort of good to know but was a right pain, I do miss a bit of access development, might bite the bullet and buy MS Office or something soon, just to keep my hand in. Paul On 7 March 2014 12:48, John W Colby wrote: > IIRC that was a bug that was eventually fixed? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/7/2014 7:29 AM, Paul Hartland wrote: > >> Also I have had a situation happen to me twice with an MS Access database >> we had a table which used an autonumber field as the PK, in this table >> deletions were allowed, so we could have a case where you could get 1, 2, >> 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11 as PK's but this was ok, the problems came when we >> started having regular crashes before we moved to SQL with VB6 front-end, >> I >> would compact and repair the Access database and let everyone go back in >> and a couple of times I got a call saying there had been an error, and it >> would involve this table with the autonumber as a PK, it seems that Access >> would get confused and if you use the sequence of numbers earlier as an >> example it would try starting at 6 this would be ok, then for the next >> record it would try using 7 but seven exists so errors would occur, this >> happened a couple of times where the autonumber would try restarting from >> an earlier number that was missing. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On 7 March 2014 11:41, Jim Dettman wrote: >> >> <>> very >>> >>>> next previous record?>> >>>> >>> Well one problem with that is that you really can't. AN's can roll over >>> to negative numbers, So your check may not be valid at some point. For >>> all practical purposes it's true (the rollover point is quite large), >>> but >>> I have seen a Jet db corrupt and as a result, the AN seed jump to an >>> extremely high number. >>> >>> Second problem is that the key is no longer meaningless. You've encoded >>> the "entry order" in the value of the key. >>> >>> You can't change the key without destroying the information it >>> represents. >>> >>> GUID creation does involve the time as part of the calc, but that >>> doesn't >>> allow you to treat them as sequenced numbers. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 6, 2014, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Benson" >>> wrote: >>> >>> I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for >>>> >>> all >>> >>>> records created before and/or after another record, without having to >>>> compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have >>>> *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < >>>> ########. >>>> >>>> If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. >>>> >>>> But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are >>>> >>> constructed, >>> >>>> only that they are essentially "random"...?? >>>> >>>> Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>>> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM >>>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes >>>> >>>> Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a >>>> >>> single >>> >>>> instruction. Two GUIDs >>>> will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to >>>> perform the same compare. >>>> Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to >>>> >>> integers. >>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" >>>>> >>>> from >>> >>>> databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to >>>>> >>>> argue >>> >>>> that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / >>>>> great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field >>>>> >>>> PK, >>> >>>> which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. >>>>> >>>> Additionally >>> >>>> the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without >>>>> requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make >>>>> up >>>>> for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using >>>>> autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. >>>>> The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, >>>>> and >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>>> very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. >>>>> >>>>> I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how >>>>> my >>>>> stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) >>>>> >>>>> D >>>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 07:59:31 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:59:31 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease our a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get confused and turn negative. Might I say that the latter situation is a database corruption issue, since if they turn trip 0 they take away the one test I often use for "no record" and if they go higher after that they could easily try to duplicate a record id. I think this adds a measure of maintenance to a database and /or rules out Access as a relational database of choice in high stakes operarions. I would not run my life by this extremely unlikely principle. As for AN being a local phenomenon, says who? If the Access database is a backend systen, then then New Record is called, it will advance the value in the main table. No long as the database is not replicated or being maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used until update is required or the next New Record. So that argument sounds like a non starter or else equivalent to other things said in support of GUID. No one yet has said how a GUID value can be shown to come before or after another. I cannot think of a database project yet where I was not concerned with sorting records in a recordset that included all records posted on or before a certain record, or on or after a certain record, and datetime is not a good predictor. I have seen that field hand-entered/overridden after-the-fact. I need record Id for sequential comparison of records, generally, and I don't believe that is possible with GUIS and is always (ok, *almost always*) doable with an Auto number fields. And don't forget in client server databases, the sequence is often handles by a stored operation that runs while the database is running, called, I think, a Sequence and a new record Id gets popped every time the stored function is called and it always keeps track where it is regardless of the number of users. And for Peterson ' s sake, the name is Bill, NOT BENSON!! What is this, High School?? On Mar 7, 2014 6:42 AM, "Jim Dettman" wrote: > < > > > next previous record?>> > > Well one problem with that is that you really can't. AN's can roll over > to negative numbers, So your check may not be valid at some point. For > all practical purposes it's true (the rollover point is quite large), but > I have seen a Jet db corrupt and as a result, the AN seed jump to an > extremely high number. > > Second problem is that the key is no longer meaningless. You've encoded > the "entry order" in the value of the key. > > You can't change the key without destroying the information it represents. > > GUID creation does involve the time as part of the calc, but that doesn't > allow you to treat them as sequenced numbers. > > Jim > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 6, 2014, at 11:54 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > > > I would also add that the autonumber PK is very good for searching for > all > > records created before and/or after another record, without having to > > compare pinpoint precision date fields, which even then may not have > > *enough* precision when things occur in a batch mode. > > > > > > > > All I know to do is look for the MAX(RecordID) WHERE RecordID < ########. > > > > If someone knows a way to do that with GUID, then I will stand down. > > > > But being an ignoramus and knowing nothing about how GUIDs are > constructed, > > only that they are essentially "random"...?? > > > > Otherwise, well bite off my fingers. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 11:43 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > > Explain to the whipper snapper that two integers can be compared in a > single > > instruction. Two GUIDs > > will take an entire string compare function and thousands of cycles to > > perform the same compare. > > Then whip up a demo to show him. GUIDs are dog slow compared to > integers. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/6/2014 8:02 PM, David McAfee wrote: > >> > >> This strategy is not without detractors however, mostly "old timers" > from > >> databases where multi-field PKs were ALWAYS used. Mostly they try to > argue > >> that it is possible to just read the PK down in the child / grandchild / > >> great grandchild etc. simply by looking at the data in the multi-field > PK, > >> which "saves your bacon" when orphans creep in and so forth. > Additionally > >> the "values" can often be pulled for reporting and the like, without > >> requiring joins back up the chain. Both are true, but not (IMO) make up > >> for the overhead and headaches that multi-field PKs bring with them. > >> > >> > >> John, I was recently called an old timer because I insisted on using > >> autonumber integer PK for some of our new designs. > >> The young whipper snapper said that's the "old way" of doing things, and > > is > >> very anal about using GUIDS and multi-field PKs. > >> > >> I know GUIDs have their place, but he just doesn't get it. I love how my > >> stuff runs so much faster, even with joins. :) > >> > >> D > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jimdettman at verizon.net Fri Mar 7 08:36:40 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:36:40 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: <> Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID rather then an AN. <> No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a negative value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of a long is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that many records in it's lifetime. But it is part of the definition/logic of an AN. If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check. << No long as the database is not replicated or being maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used until update is required or the next New Record.>> While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated or not. So in the case were I have records created at various locations, then merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the key in some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and you get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing the process and open the door to possibly making a mistake. <> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should have an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being allowed to change. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease our a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get <> From vbacreations at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 09:23:29 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:23:29 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> I can tell you are not sure. I am making the point that to my knowledge, it is not possible to compare one GUID and determine that it was created either before, or after a GUID. So I don't know why you reply to that "... and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID rather then an AN." -- as this is exactly why I WOULD NOT want to use a GUID as opposed to an AN. >> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've never seen anyone do it, yet"" >> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should have an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, and it is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often stamp them all with the same date/time. I am pretty sure the system date is not precise enough to measure a distinction between records added "simultaneously", so using your technique, you would not, in my estimation of database precision, be able to sort out which record were added first in an operation. With AN, you don't have that problem. I just sequence records by my LastModifiedID and the AN field itself, then it doesn't really matter even if someone else inserts rows in a record-locking (rather than page-locking) operation. Different strokes for different folks, I have seen no reason to give up my reliance on Autonumber and I am planning on continuing to make them PKs and have other tables fill up their FK fields with pointers to those, and probably would never use GUID unless I am on a project much larger than myself, for performance reasons and for the reason I just mentioned, that I have no rational way to compare records for sequence (and datetime is useless, despite the protest I hear you about to make :0 ) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:37 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: <> Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID rather then an AN. <> No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a negative value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of a long is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that many records in it's lifetime. But it is part of the definition/logic of an AN. If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check. << No long as the database is not replicated or being maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used until update is required or the next New Record.>> While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated or not. So in the case were I have records created at various locations, then merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the key in some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and you get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing the process and open the door to possibly making a mistake. <> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should have an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being allowed to change. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease our a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get <> -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 10:11:04 2014 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 11:11:04 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that it's worth pointing out that in some db designs, tracking the Last Modified date-time is woefully inadequate. Why, you might ask? The reason is that by definition Delete and Update statements destroy data, making it impossible (without a Restore) to go back to the previous data. In general, these designs are called Point In Time Architecture. For example, consider a medical database in which a Patient table might have a FamilyPhysianID column. Patients move and therefore change Physicians; Physicians retire or die; and so on. With simple Updates you automatically destroy the history. The most common approach (detailed in my Simple-Talk article on this subject) is to add a pair of columns to each table, EffectiveDate and EndDate, and to eschew traditional Updates and Deletes. If you're interested in the details of such a design, visit www.simple-talk.com and search for "PTA Architecture" (The editor didn't like the traditional acronym :) Arthur On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > I can tell you are not sure. > > I am making the point that to my knowledge, it is not possible to compare > one GUID and determine that it was created either before, or after a GUID. > So I don't know why you reply to that "... and someone's already pointed > out > where you'd want to use a GUID > rather then an AN." -- as this is exactly why I WOULD NOT want to use a > GUID > as opposed to an AN. > > > >> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the > next number > assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> > > ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've never > seen anyone do it, yet"" > > > >> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should > have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. > Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, and it > is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often stamp them all > with the same date/time. I am pretty sure the system date is not precise > enough to measure a distinction between records added "simultaneously", so > using your technique, you would not, in my estimation of database > precision, > be able to sort out which record were added first in an operation. With AN, > you don't have that problem. I just sequence records by my LastModifiedID > and the AN field itself, then it doesn't really matter even if someone else > inserts rows in a record-locking (rather than page-locking) operation. > > Different strokes for different folks, I have seen no reason to give up my > reliance on Autonumber and I am planning on continuing to make them PKs and > have other tables fill up their FK fields with pointers to those, and > probably would never use GUID unless I am on a project much larger than > myself, for performance reasons and for the reason I just mentioned, that I > have no rational way to compare records for sequence (and datetime is > useless, despite the protest I hear you about to make :0 ) > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:37 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: > > < our > a record's ordinal position>> > > Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID > rather then an AN. > > < confused and turn negative. >> > > No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a negative > value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of a > long > is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that many records > in it's lifetime. But it is part of the definition/logic of an AN. If > you > reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number > assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check. > > << No long as the database is not replicated or being > maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used > until update is required or the next New Record.>> > > While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a > connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated or > not. So in the case were I have records created at various locations, then > merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. > > The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the key > in > some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and you > get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing the > process > and open the door to possibly making a mistake. > > < concerned with sorting records in a recordset that included all records > posted on or before a certain record, or on or after a certain record, and > datetime is not a good predictor. I have seen that field > hand-entered/overridden after-the-fact. >> > > I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being > allowed to change. > > Jim. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease our > a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get > <> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Arthur From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 11:02:40 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 12:02:40 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun and free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure it will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table to hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's usefulness. CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why doesn't it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now delete the one record remaining and try again: CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" Or alternatively CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new record at ID = -2147483647!!!! DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! From gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 7 12:08:31 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 18:08:31 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com>, <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill No need to delete the record. Just run this twice: CurrentDb.Execute "insert into A (Field2) Values ('new');" /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Bill Benson Sendt: 7. marts 2014 18:02 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun and free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure it will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table to hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's usefulness. CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why doesn't it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now delete the one record remaining and try again: CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" Or alternatively CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new record at ID = -2147483647!!!! DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 12:27:36 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 13:27:36 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> Bill, Correct me if I am wrong but what is going on is that the autoincrement is a SIGNED long integer, i.e. +/- 2^31. I never understood why they used a signed long instead of an unsigned long but it is what it is. So... the way the autoincrement is supposed to work is that it increments starting at 1 up until it would "roll over". What it rolls over TO is -2^31 (a very large negative number) and then starts counting back towards 0. Essentially it simply adds 1 to the number until it counts all the way up to 2^33. When it reaches 2^31+1 it "rolls over and continues counting. Since 2^33 won't fit in a 32 bit number, when it adds 2^33 ones it is back to zero, i.e. it "rolls over" again. Back to your example, I think that you are trying to insert TWO values into table A, the long int and the text value. Since the long in table A is an autoincrement, try adding just the text value into Table A and see what happens. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 12:02 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun and > free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure it > will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table to > hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's > usefulness. > > CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" > CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" > CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, > Field2 TEXT);" > CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" > CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, > 'DELETEME');" > CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, > 'DELETEME');" > CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" > CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" > CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" > > This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 > > Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why doesn't > it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now > delete the one record remaining and try again: > > CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" > > Or alternatively > CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" > > Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new record > at ID = -2147483647!!!! > > DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Fri Mar 7 13:44:21 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <892B3FA72E5C4811BDC20DD74298AEF0@XPS> The same thing can be accomplished with a log table. I wrote an HR system like that once, where it was possible to view the employees record "as of". I basically did what a DBMS does when it rolls back. The effective date though sounds like a better approach. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:11 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes I think that it's worth pointing out that in some db designs, tracking the Last Modified date-time is woefully inadequate. Why, you might ask? The reason is that by definition Delete and Update statements destroy data, making it impossible (without a Restore) to go back to the previous data. In general, these designs are called Point In Time Architecture. For example, consider a medical database in which a Patient table might have a FamilyPhysianID column. Patients move and therefore change Physicians; Physicians retire or die; and so on. With simple Updates you automatically destroy the history. The most common approach (detailed in my Simple-Talk article on this subject) is to add a pair of columns to each table, EffectiveDate and EndDate, and to eschew traditional Updates and Deletes. If you're interested in the details of such a design, visit www.simple-talk.com and search for "PTA Architecture" (The editor didn't like the traditional acronym :) Arthur On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > I can tell you are not sure. > > I am making the point that to my knowledge, it is not possible to compare > one GUID and determine that it was created either before, or after a GUID. > So I don't know why you reply to that "... and someone's already pointed > out > where you'd want to use a GUID > rather then an AN." -- as this is exactly why I WOULD NOT want to use a > GUID > as opposed to an AN. > > > >> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the > next number > assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> > > ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've never > seen anyone do it, yet"" > > > >> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should > have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. > Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, and it > is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often stamp them all > with the same date/time. I am pretty sure the system date is not precise > enough to measure a distinction between records added "simultaneously", so > using your technique, you would not, in my estimation of database > precision, > be able to sort out which record were added first in an operation. With AN, > you don't have that problem. I just sequence records by my LastModifiedID > and the AN field itself, then it doesn't really matter even if someone else > inserts rows in a record-locking (rather than page-locking) operation. > > Different strokes for different folks, I have seen no reason to give up my > reliance on Autonumber and I am planning on continuing to make them PKs and > have other tables fill up their FK fields with pointers to those, and > probably would never use GUID unless I am on a project much larger than > myself, for performance reasons and for the reason I just mentioned, that I > have no rational way to compare records for sequence (and datetime is > useless, despite the protest I hear you about to make :0 ) > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:37 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: > > < our > a record's ordinal position>> > > Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID > rather then an AN. > > < confused and turn negative. >> > > No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a negative > value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of a > long > is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that many records > in it's lifetime. But it is part of the definition/logic of an AN. If > you > reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number > assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check. > > << No long as the database is not replicated or being > maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used > until update is required or the next New Record.>> > > While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a > connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated or > not. So in the case were I have records created at various locations, then > merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. > > The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the key > in > some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and you > get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing the > process > and open the door to possibly making a mistake. > > < concerned with sorting records in a recordset that included all records > posted on or before a certain record, or on or after a certain record, and > datetime is not a good predictor. I have seen that field > hand-entered/overridden after-the-fact. >> > > I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being > allowed to change. > > Jim. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease our > a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get > <> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Arthur -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Fri Mar 7 13:44:21 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E08B8AE76414944973B7012FC164472@XPS> Bill, << >> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've never seen anyone do it, yet"" >> << Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, and it is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often stamp them all with the same date/time. >> I guess the point is that AN's are not under your control. It's something that JET gets it's fingers in and is in control of. Given that, it doesn't seem wise to use them. If I really wanted to ensure that I knew the exact sequence records were entered in, then I would assign my own sequential number. Part of the reason for that is that by saying you consider the sequence a piece of information, then the AN field is no longer meaningless. But I would not be relying on the AN's for sequence because over the years, time and time again there have been problems with them. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:23 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes I can tell you are not sure. <> From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 14:31:24 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 15:31:24 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <892B3FA72E5C4811BDC20DD74298AEF0@XPS> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <892B3FA72E5C4811BDC20DD74298AEF0@XPS> Message-ID: <531A2C9C.9060609@gmail.com> Both approaches have very high overhead. If that kind of absolute tracking is required than PIT(A) architecture is very robust. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 2:44 PM, Jim Dettman wrote: > The same thing can be accomplished with a log table. I wrote an HR system > like that once, where it was possible to view the employees record "as of". > > I basically did what a DBMS does when it rolls back. The effective date > though sounds like a better approach. > > Jim. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 11:11 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > I think that it's worth pointing out that in some db designs, tracking the > Last Modified date-time is woefully inadequate. Why, you might ask? The > reason is that by definition Delete and Update statements destroy data, > making it impossible (without a Restore) to go back to the previous data. > > In general, these designs are called Point In Time Architecture. For > example, consider a medical database in which a Patient table might have a > FamilyPhysianID column. Patients move and therefore change Physicians; > Physicians retire or die; and so on. With simple Updates you automatically > destroy the history. > > The most common approach (detailed in my Simple-Talk article on this > subject) is to add a pair of columns to each table, EffectiveDate and > EndDate, and to eschew traditional Updates and Deletes. If you're > interested in the details of such a design, visit www.simple-talk.com and > search for "PTA Architecture" (The editor didn't like the traditional > acronym :) > > Arthur > > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> I can tell you are not sure. >> >> I am making the point that to my knowledge, it is not possible to compare >> one GUID and determine that it was created either before, or after a GUID. >> So I don't know why you reply to that "... and someone's already pointed >> out >> where you'd want to use a GUID >> rather then an AN." -- as this is exactly why I WOULD NOT want to use a >> GUID >> as opposed to an AN. >> >> >>>> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the >> next number >> assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> >> >> ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've > never >> seen anyone do it, yet"" >> >> >>>> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should >> have >> an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. >> Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, and > it >> is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often stamp them > all >> with the same date/time. I am pretty sure the system date is not precise >> enough to measure a distinction between records added "simultaneously", so >> using your technique, you would not, in my estimation of database >> precision, >> be able to sort out which record were added first in an operation. With > AN, >> you don't have that problem. I just sequence records by my LastModifiedID >> and the AN field itself, then it doesn't really matter even if someone > else >> inserts rows in a record-locking (rather than page-locking) operation. >> >> Different strokes for different folks, I have seen no reason to give up my >> reliance on Autonumber and I am planning on continuing to make them PKs > and >> have other tables fill up their FK fields with pointers to those, and >> probably would never use GUID unless I am on a project much larger than >> myself, for performance reasons and for the reason I just mentioned, that > I >> have no rational way to compare records for sequence (and datetime is >> useless, despite the protest I hear you about to make :0 ) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:37 AM >> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes >> >> >> Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: >> >> <> our >> a record's ordinal position>> >> >> Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID >> rather then an AN. >> >> <> confused and turn negative. >> >> >> No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a negative >> value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of a >> long >> is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that many records >> in it's lifetime. But it is part of the definition/logic of an AN. If >> you >> reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, the next number >> assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check. >> >> << No long as the database is not replicated or being >> maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record used >> until update is required or the next New Record.>> >> >> While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a >> connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated or >> not. So in the case were I have records created at various locations, > then >> merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. >> >> The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the key >> in >> some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and you >> get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing the >> process >> and open the door to possibly making a mistake. >> >> <> concerned with sorting records in a recordset that included all records >> posted on or before a certain record, or on or after a certain record, and >> datetime is not a good predictor. I have seen that field >> hand-entered/overridden after-the-fact. >> >> >> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should > have >> an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being >> allowed to change. >> >> Jim. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes >> >> Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to tease > our >> a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto number can get >> <> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Mar 7 15:04:56 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 07:04:56 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com>, <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531A3478.6103.21D2F825@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Because MS BASICs (including VBA) and Access have never had an intrinsic DWORD (aka unsigned long) data type. The failure to introduce one into BASIC with the advent of Windows has always struck me as strange since they are at the core of the Windows API -- Stuart On 7 Mar 2014 at 13:27, John W Colby wrote: > Bill, > > Correct me if I am wrong but what is going on is that the > autoincrement is a SIGNED long integer, i.e. +/- 2^31. I never, even thoug > understood why they used a signed long instead of an unsigned long but > it is what it is. > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Mar 7 15:12:04 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 07:12:04 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531A3624.10073.21D97EE1@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Of course, using the sole available AN in a table to determine order of entry makes it meaningful data in its own right and no longer useful as a surrogate PK. So we now need both an non-primary AN key and a GUID PK. :) -- Stuart On 7 Mar 2014 at 10:23, Bill Benson wrote: > I can tell you are not sure. > > I am making the point that to my knowledge, it is not possible to > compare one GUID and determine that it was created either before, or > after a GUID. So I don't know why you reply to that "... and someone's > already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID rather then an AN." > -- as this is exactly why I WOULD NOT want to use a GUID as opposed to > an AN. > > > >> . If you reset the seed value of an AN to the max value of a long, > >> the > next number > assigned will be negative, thus invalidating your check>> > > ... and who in their right mind would do this? As you wrote, ". I've > never seen anyone do it, yet"" > > > >> I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You > >> should have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. > Well that's your prerogative, sir! I take a different view entirely, > and it is because adding records in a batch operation, I will often > stamp them all with the same date/time. I am pretty sure the system > date is not precise enough to measure a distinction between records > added "simultaneously", so using your technique, you would not, in my > estimation of database precision, be able to sort out which record > were added first in an operation. With AN, you don't have that > problem. I just sequence records by my LastModifiedID and the AN field > itself, then it doesn't really matter even if someone else inserts > rows in a record-locking (rather than page-locking) operation. > > Different strokes for different folks, I have seen no reason to give > up my reliance on Autonumber and I am planning on continuing to make > them PKs and have other tables fill up their FK fields with pointers > to those, and probably would never use GUID unless I am on a project > much larger than myself, for performance reasons and for the reason I > just mentioned, that I have no rational way to compare records for > sequence (and datetime is useless, despite the protest I hear you > about to make :0 ) > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:37 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion > and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > > Not sure where were going with this, but a couple of points: > > < tease our a record's ordinal position>> > > Yes and someone's already pointed out where you'd want to use a GUID > rather then an AN. > > < confused and turn negative. >> > > No. You can as a matter of normal operation, roll over to a > negative > value on an AN. I've never seen anyone do it, yet. The max value of > a long is quite high and I doubt an app would be able to create that > many records in it's lifetime. But it is part of the > definition/logic of an AN. If you reset the seed value of an AN to > the max value of a long, the next number assigned will be negative, > thus invalidating your check. > > << No long as the database is not replicated or being > maintained client-side, the connection can be dropped and the record > used until update is required or the next New Record.>> > > While that's true, but the point you miss is that with GUID's, a > connection does not need to be made at all for data entry, replicated > or not. So in the case were I have records created at various > locations, then merged later, GUID's are a perfect choice. > > The only other option is to use AN's, then when merging, prefix the > key in > some way to indicate the source. That works pretty well actually and > you get better performance then a GUID, but then your stuck managing > the process and open the door to possibly making a mistake. > > < concerned with sorting records in a recordset that included all > records posted on or before a certain record, or on or after a certain > record, and datetime is not a good predictor. I have seen that field > hand-entered/overridden after-the-fact. >> > > I certainly would not be relying on an AN field for that. You should > have > an entry date/time and a transaction date/time. The first never being > allowed to change. > > Jim. > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 09:00 AM To: Access Developers discussion > and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes > > Jim, so you have agreed that GUID1 cannot be compared to GUID2 to > tease our a record's ordinal position and you have said that auto > number can get <> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 15:16:34 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 16:16:34 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> Message-ID: John and Gustav, the code I wrote ended with the table in the condition that one cannot MANUALLY add a record. I don't know if inline SQL works, I did not try. It is pretty easy to drop those lines of code into the immediate window or a function, execute them, and see what I mean. I am not going to second guess Jet, and if anyone tells me the behavior makes sense to them, I will believe you LOL. Bill On Mar 7, 2014 1:28 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > Bill, > > Correct me if I am wrong but what is going on is that the autoincrement is > a SIGNED long integer, i.e. +/- 2^31. I never understood why they used a > signed long instead of an unsigned long but it is what it is. > > So... the way the autoincrement is supposed to work is that it increments > starting at 1 up until it would "roll over". What it rolls over TO is > -2^31 (a very large negative number) and then starts counting back towards > 0. Essentially it simply adds 1 to the number until it counts all the way > up to 2^33. When it reaches 2^31+1 it "rolls over and continues counting. > Since 2^33 won't fit in a 32 bit number, when it adds 2^33 ones it is back > to zero, i.e. it "rolls over" again. > > Back to your example, I think that you are trying to insert TWO values > into table A, the long int and the text value. Since the long in table A > is an autoincrement, try adding just the text value into Table A and see > what happens. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/7/2014 12:02 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun >> and >> free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure >> it >> will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table >> to >> hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's >> usefulness. >> >> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" >> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" >> CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY >> KEY, >> Field2 TEXT);" >> CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" >> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, >> 'DELETEME');" >> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, >> 'DELETEME');" >> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" >> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" >> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" >> >> This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 >> >> Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why >> doesn't >> it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now >> delete the one record remaining and try again: >> >> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" >> >> Or alternatively >> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" >> >> Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new >> record >> at ID = -2147483647!!!! >> >> DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 15:27:24 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 16:27:24 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <531A0F98.50806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531A39BC.1070009@gmail.com> I tried your code and I ended up adding a new record to table A (manually) with an autonumber of 1. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 4:16 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > John and Gustav, the code I wrote ended with the table in the condition > that one cannot MANUALLY add a record. > > I don't know if inline SQL works, I did not try. > > It is pretty easy to drop those lines of code into the immediate window or > a function, execute them, and see what I mean. > > I am not going to second guess Jet, and if anyone tells me the behavior > makes sense to them, I will believe you LOL. > > Bill > On Mar 7, 2014 1:28 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> Correct me if I am wrong but what is going on is that the autoincrement is >> a SIGNED long integer, i.e. +/- 2^31. I never understood why they used a >> signed long instead of an unsigned long but it is what it is. >> >> So... the way the autoincrement is supposed to work is that it increments >> starting at 1 up until it would "roll over". What it rolls over TO is >> -2^31 (a very large negative number) and then starts counting back towards >> 0. Essentially it simply adds 1 to the number until it counts all the way >> up to 2^33. When it reaches 2^31+1 it "rolls over and continues counting. >> Since 2^33 won't fit in a 32 bit number, when it adds 2^33 ones it is back >> to zero, i.e. it "rolls over" again. >> >> Back to your example, I think that you are trying to insert TWO values >> into table A, the long int and the text value. Since the long in table A >> is an autoincrement, try adding just the text value into Table A and see >> what happens. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/7/2014 12:02 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> >>> OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun >>> and >>> free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure >>> it >>> will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table >>> to >>> hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's >>> usefulness. >>> >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY >>> KEY, >>> Field2 TEXT);" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, >>> 'DELETEME');" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, >>> 'DELETEME');" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" >>> >>> This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 >>> >>> Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why >>> doesn't >>> it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now >>> delete the one record remaining and try again: >>> >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" >>> >>> Or alternatively >>> CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" >>> >>> Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new >>> record >>> at ID = -2147483647!!!! >>> >>> DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! >>> >>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:01:30 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 17:01:30 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01cf3a50$cc6e0230$654a0690$@gmail.com> Awkward.... ;) Actually, I suspect you either your program works differently than mine (2010 here) or you are not telling all, John LOL. Are you *sure* Access automatically puts the correct autosequence number the first time you attempt to enter information into the table, after running that code? For me Access wanted to re-use -2147483648. This is whether I click on the new record button, or just click in the open cell in Field2, in datasheet view of Table A.. Then, if I press ESC, ONLY THEN Access properly attempts a value of ID = -2147483647. Again, this may make sense to someone, but it does not make sense to me. Sub Test() Dim MyDB As DAO.Database Set MyDB = CurrentDb With MyDB On Error Resume Next .Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" .Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" On Error GoTo Get_Out .Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" .Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" End With Get_Out: Set MyDB = Nothing End Sub -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 12:03 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun and free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure it will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table to hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's usefulness. CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why doesn't it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now delete the one record remaining and try again: CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" Or alternatively CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new record at ID = -2147483647!!!! DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 16:07:35 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 17:07:35 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <001c01cf3a50$cc6e0230$654a0690$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> <001c01cf3a50$cc6e0230$654a0690$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01cf3a51$a6249110$f26db330$@gmail.com> Try this instead and I believe if your system is like mine, you will see the default behavior IS AN ERROR. Sub Test() Dim MyDB As DAO.Database Set MyDB = CurrentDb With MyDB On Error Resume Next .Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" .Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" On Error GoTo Get_Out .Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" .Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" On Error Resume Next .Execute "INSERT INTO A (FIELD2) VALUES ('NewVal');", dbFailOnError If Err.Number <> 0 Then MsgBox "Error occurred:" & Chr(13) & _ Err.Number & " " & Err.Description .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" End With Get_Out: Set MyDB = Nothing End Sub From vbacreations at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 15:57:56 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 16:57:56 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> Awkward.... ;) Actually, I suspect you either your program works differently than mine (2010 here) or you are not telling all, John LOL. Are you *sure* Access automatically puts the correct autosequence number the first time you attempt to enter information into the table, after running that code? For me Access wanted to re-use -2147483648. This is whether I click on the new record button, or just click in the open cell in Field2, in datasheet view of Table A.. Then, if I press ESC, ONLY THEN Access properly attempts a value of ID = -2147483647. Again, this may make sense to someone, but it does not make sense to me. Sub Test() Dim MyDB As DAO.Database Set MyDB = CurrentDb With MyDB On Error Resume Next .Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" .Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" On Error GoTo Get_Out .Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647,'DELETEME');" .Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" .Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" .Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" End With Get_Out: Set MyDB = Nothing End Sub -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 12:03 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes OK, this discussion has intrigued me like few others. I have found a fun and free way to corrupt my database. Play along boys and girls and I am sure it will be fun for you too. In the below example, B is used as a temp table to hold a couple of values for the fun and exciting purpose of destroying A's usefulness. CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [A];" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483647;" CurrentDb.Execute "DROP TABLE [B];" This leaves a single record in table A with ID = -2147483648 Now try and add a new record to A and you will find you cannot. Why doesn't it autoincrement to -2147483647 ? That is a very good question. Let's now delete the one record remaining and try again: CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE FROM [A] WHERE ID =2147483648;" Or alternatively CurrentDb.Execute "DELETE * FROM [A];" Now add a new record and you will see that the database begins a new record at ID = -2147483647!!!! DEFIES ALL LOGIC! It has been my pleasure to baffle you! -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 21:19:15 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 22:19:15 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Message-ID: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> http://blogs.computerworld.com/pcs/23623/pc-apocalypse-upon-us-latest-sales-figures-say-it-might-be Interesting to me is that the drop in sales seems to be leveling out. Which makes sense. Many people bought PCs not because they wanted a big honking desktop machine but because the small form factor (pads) didn't exist. Many of those buyers really just want to sit on the couch and surf the internet, perfect work for a pad. Those buyers are now shifting to the pad format. But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) honking desktop to get work done. These work stations may in fact some day be replaced by a very capable notepad IF the notepad can provide connections to at LEAST one and preferably two monitors, keyboard and mouse. Which will no doubt occur down the road. Even then there will always be a market for a honkin video card for real video intensive work (cad-cam, graphics, video editing and the like) and for games which need honkin video power. So the reported demise of the desktop is premature to say the least. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 21:30:35 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 22:30:35 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701cf3a7e$c66ff4f0$534fded0$@gmail.com> Wow, you posted apocalypse right as I was realizing that SW. Climate Horror And Chemtrail Sorrow are anagrams... Scary! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... http://blogs.computerworld.com/pcs/23623/pc-apocalypse-upon-us-latest-sales- figures-say-it-might-be Interesting to me is that the drop in sales seems to be leveling out. Which makes sense. Many people bought PCs not because they wanted a big honking desktop machine but because the small form factor (pads) didn't exist. Many of those buyers really just want to sit on the couch and surf the internet, perfect work for a pad. Those buyers are now shifting to the pad format. But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) honking desktop to get work done. These work stations may in fact some day be replaced by a very capable notepad IF the notepad can provide connections to at LEAST one and preferably two monitors, keyboard and mouse. Which will no doubt occur down the road. Even then there will always be a market for a honkin video card for real video intensive work (cad-cam, graphics, video editing and the like) and for games which need honkin video power. So the reported demise of the desktop is premature to say the least. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From kathryn at bassett.net Fri Mar 7 21:53:14 2014 From: kathryn at bassett.net (Kathryn Bassett) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:53:14 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: John said: > But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) honking > desktop to get work done. > These work stations may in fact some day be replaced by a very capable > notepad IF the notepad can provide connections to at LEAST one and > preferably two monitors, keyboard and mouse Then there is me. It's been I-don't-know-how-long, but probably pretty close to 20 years since I used a desktop (got 2nd laptop in 1999). I just use my laptop *like* a desktop - external mouse, keyboard, monitor, multiple usb hubs, etc. The only difference now is that with my most recent laptop, I had to buy a docking station in order to run my existing external monitor since it needed pin vs the new style connection. -- Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" kathryn at bassett.net http://bassett.net?? From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 22:18:17 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 23:18:17 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531A9A09.6080303@gmail.com> Yes, but the laptop is the new desktop. I just finished a year gig at IBM and they have a thousand desks, every one of which has a laptop... hooked to TWO monitors, keyboard and mouse. I no longer buy "desktop" machines either, I have used only laptops since the 2005 timeframe, but these are still NOT a "pad" or a smart phone. They are Intel / AMD multi-core with (nowadays) 8 gigs of ram and video graphics chips waaaaaaaay more powerful than the typical notepad. And running Windows of course. My current laptop is a quad core i7 with 8 gigs RAM, capable of using 16 gigs, a very capable intel integrated graphics engine, and 500gb of SSD. This notebook has a dozen times the compute and 4 times the RAM of the SERVERS that I was building in 2004. There is not a pad in the world today that can touch that machine, not even close. In five years? Pads keep getting more powerful, but they are constrained by their form factor with regards to how much heat they can emit. Even a laptop has fans cooling the interior. As has been noted elsewhere, most notebooks are plenty powerful and don't need more power, with the possible exception of video horsepower. Notepads are increasing in (compute) power every year. At some point they will reach the point where they can replace the current notebooks, but they then need to decide how to attack the IO that the notebook provides. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 10:53 PM, Kathryn Bassett wrote: > John said: >> But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) honking >> desktop to get work done. >> These work stations may in fact some day be replaced by a very capable >> notepad IF the notepad can provide connections to at LEAST one and >> preferably two monitors, keyboard and mouse > Then there is me. It's been I-don't-know-how-long, but probably pretty close > to 20 years since I used a desktop (got 2nd laptop in 1999). I just use my > laptop *like* a desktop - external mouse, keyboard, monitor, multiple usb > hubs, etc. The only difference now is that with my most recent laptop, I had > to buy a docking station in order to run my existing external monitor since > it needed pin vs the new style connection. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net > > > > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Mar 7 22:23:54 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:23:54 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse (wireless) and second monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full keyboard with numeric keypad. -- Stuart On 7 Mar 2014 at 19:53, Kathryn Bassett wrote: > John said: > > But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) > > honking desktop to get work done. These work stations may in fact > > some day be replaced by a very capable notepad IF the notepad can > > provide connections to at LEAST one and preferably two monitors, > > keyboard and mouse > > Then there is me. It's been I-don't-know-how-long, but probably pretty > close to 20 years since I used a desktop (got 2nd laptop in 1999). I > just use my laptop *like* a desktop - external mouse, keyboard, > monitor, multiple usb hubs, etc. The only difference now is that with > my most recent laptop, I had to buy a docking station in order to run > my existing external monitor since it needed pin vs the new style > connection. > > -- > Kathryn Rhinehart Bassett (Pasadena CA) > "Genealogy is my bag" "GH is my soap" > kathryn at bassett.net > http://bassett.net?? > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 22:31:04 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 23:31:04 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com>, <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall at the edge of the table, completely out of the way. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse (wireless) and second > monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). > > I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full keyboard with numeric > keypad. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 23:03:57 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 00:03:57 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <001d01cf3a51$a6249110$f26db330$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> <001c01cf3a50$cc6e0230$654a0690$@gmail.com> <001d01cf3a51$a6249110$f26db330$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005501cf3a8b$d0b54700$721fd500$@gmail.com> For those not bored with this (probably only me) - I made a video to show the row insertion problem after the Autonumber field resets to a negative number then an insanely large number is used. This is probably the stupidest most meaningless presentation of a repeatable Access error you'll ever lay eyes on. I need to get to some serious work and stop doing this but I am OCD. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJimlN1Zfp8 I have shortened the code a bit, as long as you have no table A or B you can run as is. I should also mention that my former "error trapping" was invalid. Even with errors handled, it is not a VBA error that occurs, it is a database error. Doh! It was by using dbFailOnError argument in my .Execute line that I was able to see the error at runtime. Apparently it does not happen to John using Ac2003... Function Test() CurrentDb.Execute _ "CREATE TABLE [A] (ID AUTOINCREMENT NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute _ "CREATE TABLE [B] (ID LONG, Field2 TEXT);" CurrentDb.Execute _ "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (-2147483648,'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute _ "INSERT INTO B (ID, FIELD2) VALUES (2147483647, 'DELETEME');" CurrentDb.Execute _ "INSERT INTO A SELECT * FROM B;" 'NEXT LINE FAILS... SEE VIDEO FOR DEMO 'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJimlN1Zfp8 CurrentDb.Execute _ "INSERT INTO A (FIELD2) VALUES ('SomeValue');", _ dbFailOnError End Function From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 23:22:02 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 00:22:02 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <005501cf3a8b$d0b54700$721fd500$@gmail.com> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <53191631.3000900@gmail.com> <53194E4C.3080308@gmail.com> <00cc01cf39c1$64801260$2d803720$@gmail.com> <011701cf3a19$337bab90$9a7302b0$@gmail.com> <012701cf3a27$0db958e0$292c0aa0$@gmail.com> <000c01cf3a50$4e451a60$eacf4f20$@gmail.com> <001c01cf3a50$cc6e0230$654a0690$@gmail.com> <001d01cf3a51$a6249110$f26db330$@gmail.com> <005501cf3a8b$d0b54700$721fd500$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006f01cf3a8e$57b15440$0713fcc0$@gmail.com> I have to hand it to John Colby, he comes through every time! Here is his analysis to answer the post/video I submitted to this List a short while ago. Begin Above-And-Beyond-Response: OK, I watched the video. So this is pretty normal behavior. You created a record with -2147483648 which is the largest possible negative number. Then you create a record with 2147483647 which is the largest possible positive number and one LESS than the first record you created, i.e. when you add 1 to that last number you "run into" -2147483648, and that record already exists. IOW you are rolling over from the largest positive number to the largest negative number, but the largest negative number is already in the table so it can't be inserted again. Of course if you "escape", that value is thrown away and the next (second largest negative) number is not used so it can be inserted. This is exactly what I would expect to happen. The question now is why Access 2003 manages to just pick up at 1. Picking up at 1 is less helpful, since it is almost CERTAINLY already used in a read situation. It really should search for the next "available" number and pick up there. But basically I think Access 2010 is just doing the expected and not handling the issue of running into an already used value. John W. Colby From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 00:33:03 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 01:33:03 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may have lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, skimpy on ports. If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the time cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I live with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition of Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to another. I have my doubts. On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: > LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a > wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall at > the edge of the table, completely out of the way. > > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > >> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >> (wireless) and second >> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >> >> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >> keyboard with numeric >> keypad. >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From df.waters at comcast.net Sat Mar 8 08:06:25 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 08:06:25 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701cf3ad7$98211bc0$c8635340$@comcast.net> Tablet --> Read PC/Laptop --> Write Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 9:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... http://blogs.computerworld.com/pcs/23623/pc-apocalypse-upon-us-latest-sales- figures-say-it-might-be Interesting to me is that the drop in sales seems to be leveling out. Which makes sense. Many people bought PCs not because they wanted a big honking desktop machine but because the small form factor (pads) didn't exist. Many of those buyers really just want to sit on the couch and surf the internet, perfect work for a pad. Those buyers are now shifting to the pad format. But at the same time, businesses often need precisely a big(ger) honking desktop to get work done. These work stations may in fact some day be replaced by a very capable notepad IF the notepad can provide connections to at LEAST one and preferably two monitors, keyboard and mouse. Which will no doubt occur down the road. Even then there will always be a market for a honkin video card for real video intensive work (cad-cam, graphics, video editing and the like) and for games which need honkin video power. So the reported demise of the desktop is premature to say the least. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 09:24:43 2014 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:24:43 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox for syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each computer and one in the cloud. The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made changes on the laptop away from home. Doug PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, not counting the HD replacement. On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external > kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and > performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for > lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution > is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, > and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a > desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may have > lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with > RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge > capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and > (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, > skimpy on ports. > > If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of > programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home > system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my > desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the time > cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I live > with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I > compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes > obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get > recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be > recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition of > Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to > another. I have my doubts. > > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: > > > LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a > > wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall > at > > the edge of the table, completely out of the way. > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > > > >> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse > >> (wireless) and second > >> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). > >> > >> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full > >> keyboard with numeric > >> keypad. > >> > >> > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 09:30:20 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 10:30:20 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox for > syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs > continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and > also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each > computer and one in the cloud. > > The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously > and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one > labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've > made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made > changes on the laptop away from home. > > Doug > > PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one > distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron > fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full > backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. > As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple > provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups > to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a > couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was > plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a > new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then > copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, > not counting the HD replacement. > > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may have >> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >> skimpy on ports. >> >> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the time >> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I live >> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition of >> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >> another. I have my doubts. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >> >>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >> at >>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>> >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>> >>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>> (wireless) and second >>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>> >>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>> keyboard with numeric >>>> keypad. >>>> >>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 09:47:38 2014 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:47:38 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi John: I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version get re-encrypted automatically? On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: > Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not > encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. > > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >> for >> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >> computer and one in the cloud. >> >> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >> changes on the laptop away from home. >> >> Doug >> >> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >> not counting the HD replacement. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >> wrote: >> >> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>> have >>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>> skimpy on ports. >>> >>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>> time >>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>> live >>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>> of >>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>> another. I have my doubts. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>> >>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>> >>> at >>> >>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>> >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>> >>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>> keypad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 10:23:51 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:23:51 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B4417.7010104@gmail.com> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document you edited). However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) information. Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > Hi John: > > I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the > BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. > They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you > lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is > stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version > get re-encrypted automatically? > > > > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: > >> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>> for >>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>> computer and one in the cloud. >>> >>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>> not counting the HD replacement. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>> wrote: >>> >>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>> have >>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>> skimpy on ports. >>>> >>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>> time >>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>> live >>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>> of >>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>> keypad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 11:23:09 2014 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 09:23:09 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B4417.7010104@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> <531B4417.7010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, John. That kind of kills it for me - I've got 7gb in my working documents folder. I know I could cut that down, but I can't have it trying to re-sync every time I change one document. I'd have to switch back to my previous system where I had a backup program that would run periodically and dump all changed files simultaneously into the Dropbox container. Problem with that, though, was that I was getting occasional corruption on the MS Access database that I was currently using when the backup program ran. On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 8:23 AM, John W Colby wrote: > Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that > container as a drive so that you can see the files contained in the > encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive cause the boxcryptor > container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced > by Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the > boxcryptor file that is synced, not the individual files inside of the > boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is greater, i.e. one large > file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document > you edited). > > However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, > only business (sensitive) information. > > Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of > files. ATM (AFAICT) they resend the whole file, even if you just change a > single character. > > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> Hi John: >> >> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor >> drive. >> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >> get re-encrypted automatically? >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >> >> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>> >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>> >>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>> for >>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>> >>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers >>>> simultaneously >>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an >>>> iron >>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just >>>> fine. >>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline >>>> backups >>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon >>>> a >>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install >>>> a >>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>> >>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build >>>>> for >>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a >>>>> solution >>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our >>>>> customer, >>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use >>>>> a >>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>> have >>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives >>>>> with >>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and >>>>> huge >>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>> >>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a >>>>> home >>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>> time >>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>> live >>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 >>>>> edition >>>>> of >>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I >>>>> use a >>>>> >>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the >>>>>> wall >>>>>> >>>>>> at >>>>> >>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>> >>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>> >>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x >>>>>>> 768). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From dw-murphy at cox.net Sat Mar 8 11:29:48 2014 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 09:29:48 -0800 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006001cf3af4$015f5590$041e00b0$@cox.net> I am not familiar with BoxCryptor but I had an issue with TrueCrypt and backups. The date of the TrueCrypt volume file does not change, nor does it's size as you work in it. I found this out the hard way when I had to go back to a backup of the TC file. It was not current. Lesson learned. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 7:48 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi John: I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version get re-encrypted automatically? On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: > Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not > encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. > > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use >> Dropbox for syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. >> That syncs continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the >> Internet, and also means I have three identical copies of every file >> - one on each computer and one in the cloud. >> >> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers >> simultaneously and make changes to both. You end up with two copies >> of the file - one labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me >> a few times when I've made changes at home, then forgotten to close >> the file and later made changes on the laptop away from home. >> >> Doug >> >> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's >> one distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware >> with an iron fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on >> Parallels). A full backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline >> backups to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has >> saved my bacon a couple of times. I had a hard drive failure >> recently, so all I did was plug in a backup drive, boot to it, >> recover the files I needed, install a new HD, restore the system with >> the last good Time Capsule backup, then copy my recovered files back. >> The whole process took less than an hour, not counting the HD replacement. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >> wrote: >> >> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel >>> and performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to >>> build for lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so >>> that if a solution is fast for us, we know it will be at least >>> almost-fast for our customer, and not the other way around. That >>> said, there are some reasons to use a desktop machine, and that is >>> durability... If you are like me, you may have lost a laptop HD a >>> time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with RAID 3 would >>> have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports >>> and >>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and >>> nature, skimpy on ports. >>> >>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a >>> home system, I would use it only when moving around the house to >>> "run" my desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data >>> protection. But the time cost of keeping everything I want in two >>> places is prohibitive, and I live with the risk of data shock with >>> everything on one system (laptop). I compensate by regular full >>> system backups, but if my laptop becomes obsolete, that >>> multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get recovered to >>> a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be recovered >>> to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition of >>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration >>> to another. I have my doubts. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>> >>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I >>> use a >>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the >>>> wall >>>> >>> at >>> >>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>> >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>> >>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a >>>>> full keyboard with numeric keypad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>> Antivirus protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 11:38:47 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: I got rid of Dropbox because the upload and download speed is too slow. When I had a drive that was going bad I saved everything to a friend's computer and left them uploading to DB while I went back to NY. About 300 GB worth of data. Ahem, 1 1/2 weeks later I just about had all the data retrieved. There were several failed attempts to download a 140GB Acronis archive. Furthermore the cost of DB is 50 bux per mo for 500GB. I would rather spend the money on redundant, much faster hardware. DB also does not tell me how large individual files and folders are, only how much of my quota has been used. And last but not least, since my files and folders are not indexed (only) on DB as they are in my own file system, if I cut and paste huge globs of data (say I am reorganizing) Dropbox treats it as delete + add and rather than just updating a file index somewhere, it either throws stuff back onto my HD in the DB folder, thinking I want it back, or at a minimum, rebuilds itself through a time intensive upload and download "synch". I don't see they really have any other way to do what they do, since they don't have stuff indexed the way the clients do... but still, unless my HD folders are very stable, DB can be slow and inconveniencing. On Mar 8, 2014 10:31 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not > encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >> for >> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >> computer and one in the cloud. >> >> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >> changes on the laptop away from home. >> >> Doug >> >> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >> not counting the HD replacement. >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >> wrote: >> >> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>> have >>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>> skimpy on ports. >>> >>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>> time >>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>> live >>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>> of >>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>> another. I have my doubts. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>> >>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>> >>> at >>> >>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>> >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>> >>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>> keypad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From tinanfields at torchlake.com Sat Mar 8 11:57:02 2014 From: tinanfields at torchlake.com (Tina Norris Fields) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:57:02 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> References: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B59EE.2080105@torchlake.com> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! Love the course names! TNF Tina Norris Fields tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com 231-322-2787 On 3/6/2014 8:11 AM, John W Colby wrote: > I am putting together a couple of more courses to accompany those: > > But before we get into tho that, let's start with the Serenity Prayer, > you're gonna need it. > > God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change > The courage to change the things I can > And the wisdom to know the difference. > > And now to the list > > 1) Learning a new vocabulary. How to swear in public without > offending those around you. > 2) Anger management for the Windows 8.1 user > 3) Zen and the art of actually doing anything useful with Windows 8.1 > 4) How to make Windows 8 look and feel like Windows 7. 278 tips, > tricks and third party apps to download to finally get back to work. > 5) Regressing your PC to Windows 7. When all else fails, how to wipe > the abortion slick and start over. > 6) Party time, what to do (and not to do) when you've finally come to > terms with the mess. > 7) Making a list of your worst enemies to recommend Windows 8 to, and > how to convince them to use it. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/6/2014 2:11 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi all >> >> If you are serious about upgrading from XP directly to the current >> level, here is how: >> >> Migrating from Windows XP to Windows 8.1 >> http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/migrating-from-windows-xp-to-windows-8-1 >> >> >> /gustav > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 8 13:32:12 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 12:32:12 -0700 (MST) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B4417.7010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John and others I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. http://labs.bittorrent.com/ ...and... http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document you edited). However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) information. Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > Hi John: > > I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the > BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. > They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you > lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is > stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version > get re-encrypted automatically? > > > > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: > >> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>> for >>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>> computer and one in the cloud. >>> >>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>> not counting the HD replacement. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>> wrote: >>> >>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>> have >>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>> skimpy on ports. >>>> >>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>> time >>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>> live >>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>> of >>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>> keypad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:50:05 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:50:05 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <006001cf3af4$015f5590$041e00b0$@cox.net> References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> <006001cf3af4$015f5590$041e00b0$@cox.net> Message-ID: <531B746D.3060608@gmail.com> Yes but Boxcryptor is specifically built for handling drop box. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 12:29 PM, Doug Murphy wrote: > I am not familiar with BoxCryptor but I had an issue with TrueCrypt and > backups. The date of the TrueCrypt volume file does not change, nor does > it's size as you work in it. I found this out the hard way when I had to go > back to a backup of the TC file. It was not current. Lesson learned. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele > Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 7:48 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Hi John: > > I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the > BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. > They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you > lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is > stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version > get re-encrypted automatically? > > > > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: > >> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use >>> Dropbox for syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. >>> That syncs continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the >>> Internet, and also means I have three identical copies of every file >>> - one on each computer and one in the cloud. >>> >>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers >>> simultaneously and make changes to both. You end up with two copies >>> of the file - one labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me >>> a few times when I've made changes at home, then forgotten to close >>> the file and later made changes on the laptop away from home. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's >>> one distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware >>> with an iron fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on >>> Parallels). A full backup of either of my computers will restore to > either machine just fine. >>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline >>> backups to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has >>> saved my bacon a couple of times. I had a hard drive failure >>> recently, so all I did was plug in a backup drive, boot to it, >>> recover the files I needed, install a new HD, restore the system with >>> the last good Time Capsule backup, then copy my recovered files back. >>> The whole process took less than an hour, not counting the HD > replacement. >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>> wrote: >>> >>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel >>>> and performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to >>>> build for lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so >>>> that if a solution is fast for us, we know it will be at least >>>> almost-fast for our customer, and not the other way around. That >>>> said, there are some reasons to use a desktop machine, and that is >>>> durability... If you are like me, you may have lost a laptop HD a >>>> time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with RAID 3 would >>>> have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports >>>> and >>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and >>>> nature, skimpy on ports. >>>> >>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a >>>> home system, I would use it only when moving around the house to >>>> "run" my desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data >>>> protection. But the time cost of keeping everything I want in two >>>> places is prohibitive, and I live with the risk of data shock with >>>> everything on one system (laptop). I compensate by regular full >>>> system backups, but if my laptop becomes obsolete, that >>>> multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get recovered to >>>> a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be recovered >>>> to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition of >>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration >>>> to another. I have my doubts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I >>>> use a >>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the >>>>> wall >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a >>>>>> full keyboard with numeric keypad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>>> Antivirus protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:51:16 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:51:16 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <531A8C33.6090604@gmail.com> <531A9B5A.26252.2364D9A5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <531A9D08.3000401@gmail.com> <531B378C.3040907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B74B4.4060507@gmail.com> Yep, large cloud storage is kind of useless for that very reason. You can't get it up there, and then you can't get it back. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 12:38 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > I got rid of Dropbox because the upload and download speed is too slow. > When I had a drive that was going bad I saved everything to a friend's > computer and left them uploading to DB while I went back to NY. About 300 > GB worth of data. Ahem, 1 1/2 weeks later I just about had all the data > retrieved. There were several failed attempts to download a 140GB Acronis > archive. Furthermore the cost of DB is 50 bux per mo for 500GB. I would > rather spend the money on redundant, much faster hardware. DB also does not > tell me how large individual files and folders are, only how much of my > quota has been used. And last but not least, since my files and folders are > not indexed (only) on DB as they are in my own file system, if I cut and > paste huge globs of data (say I am reorganizing) Dropbox treats it as > delete + add and rather than just updating a file index somewhere, it > either throws stuff back onto my HD in the DB folder, thinking I want it > back, or at a minimum, rebuilds itself through a time intensive upload and > download "synch". I don't see they really have any other way to do what > they do, since they don't have stuff indexed the way the clients do... but > still, unless my HD folders are very stable, DB can be slow and > inconveniencing. > On Mar 8, 2014 10:31 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>> for >>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>> computer and one in the cloud. >>> >>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>> not counting the HD replacement. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>> wrote: >>> >>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>> have >>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>> skimpy on ports. >>>> >>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>> time >>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>> live >>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>> of >>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>> >>>> at >>>> >>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>> keypad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:53:15 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:53:15 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531B752B.708@gmail.com> And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John and others > > I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. > > All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. > > http://labs.bittorrent.com/ > > ...and... > > http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so > that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive > cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by > Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is > synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is > greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document > you edited). > > However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) > information. > > Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they > resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >> get re-encrypted automatically? >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >> >>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>> >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>> >>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>> for >>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>> >>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>> have >>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>> >>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>> time >>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>> live >>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>> of >>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>> >>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>> >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>> >>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 13:56:30 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:56:30 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531B59EE.2080105@torchlake.com> References: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> <531B59EE.2080105@torchlake.com> Message-ID: <531B75EE.8060204@gmail.com> ;) I've already sold a few thousand bucks worth of videos. "Wipe the abortion slick" is the big seller. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 12:57 PM, Tina Norris Fields wrote: > ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! Love the course names! > TNF > > Tina Norris Fields > tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com > 231-322-2787 > > On 3/6/2014 8:11 AM, John W Colby wrote: >> I am putting together a couple of more courses to accompany those: >> >> But before we get into tho that, let's start with the Serenity Prayer, you're gonna need it. >> >> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change >> The courage to change the things I can >> And the wisdom to know the difference. >> >> And now to the list >> >> 1) Learning a new vocabulary. How to swear in public without offending those around you. >> 2) Anger management for the Windows 8.1 user >> 3) Zen and the art of actually doing anything useful with Windows 8.1 >> 4) How to make Windows 8 look and feel like Windows 7. 278 tips, tricks and third party apps to >> download to finally get back to work. >> 5) Regressing your PC to Windows 7. When all else fails, how to wipe the abortion slick and >> start over. >> 6) Party time, what to do (and not to do) when you've finally come to terms with the mess. >> 7) Making a list of your worst enemies to recommend Windows 8 to, and how to convince them to use >> it. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/6/2014 2:11 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi all >>> >>> If you are serious about upgrading from XP directly to the current level, here is how: >>> >>> Migrating from Windows XP to Windows 8.1 >>> http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/migrating-from-windows-xp-to-windows-8-1 >>> >>> /gustav >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 14:03:22 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 15:03:22 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: <531B75EE.8060204@gmail.com> References: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> <531B59EE.2080105@torchlake.com> <531B75EE.8060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2014 2:57 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: "Wipe the abortion slick" is the big seller." Not sure I even want to search a Google to find out what that might refer to but it doesn't sound like something I want to be touching... I will just wait to see what Win 9 brings. From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 15:42:20 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 16:42:20 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Windows 8 In-Reply-To: References: <1425d34f63bb49e69f3aa8feaeac7c52@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <5318741D.3050108@gmail.com> <531B59EE.2080105@torchlake.com> <531B75EE.8060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B8EBC.50805@gmail.com> LOL. I bought a laptop with Windows 8. It was so bad I bought Windows 7 and installed that. I am now the proud owner of a mighty fine laptop. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 3:03 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> On Mar 8, 2014 2:57 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: "Wipe > the abortion slick" is the big seller." > > Not sure I even want to search a Google to find out what that might refer > to but it doesn't sound like something I want to be touching... I will just > wait to see what Win 9 brings. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 16:04:46 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:04:46 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B752B.708@gmail.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 16:14:32 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 17:14:32 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> I spent $300 for a 500GB Samsung EVO SSD for my $1000 HP Envy 17. Night and day difference in performance, loading and writing EVERYTHING. Laptops are crippled with their crappy 5400 RPM drives, but even 7200 drives are three times slower than a good SSD. It's like buying a ferrari and hooking it up to a Clydesdale to pull it down the road. Plus the SSD has no moving parts and is lower powered. What's not to like (other than price). John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 5:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Speaking of moving forwards. > > Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the > humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? > > I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between > laptop and desktop is levelled. > > My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go > through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I > can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me > any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about > data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right > hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. > > BB --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 16:28:35 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:28:35 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> Message-ID: Did you have to reinstall everything you had already put on the as-built drive or did you use some imaging software that got you across the goal line? On Mar 8, 2014 5:15 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > I spent $300 for a 500GB Samsung EVO SSD for my $1000 HP Envy 17. Night > and day difference in performance, loading and writing EVERYTHING. Laptops > are crippled with their crappy 5400 RPM drives, but even 7200 drives are > three times slower than a good SSD. It's like buying a ferrari and hooking > it up to a Clydesdale to pull it down the road. Plus the SSD has no moving > parts and is lower powered. What's not to like (other than price). > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 5:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> Speaking of moving forwards. >> >> Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the >> humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? >> >> I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap >> between >> laptop and desktop is levelled. >> >> My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go >> through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure >> I >> can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me >> any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about >> data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right >> hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. >> >> BB >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jackandpat.d at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 16:57:59 2014 From: jackandpat.d at gmail.com (jack drawbridge) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:57:59 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> Message-ID: John, Do you have an internal HDD on your laptop or is what you have for HDD all USB connected? I see the EVo 500 GB SSD at newegg for 279 now. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147249 On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Did you have to reinstall everything you had already put on the as-built > drive or did you use some imaging software that got you across the goal > line? > On Mar 8, 2014 5:15 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > I spent $300 for a 500GB Samsung EVO SSD for my $1000 HP Envy 17. Night > > and day difference in performance, loading and writing EVERYTHING. > Laptops > > are crippled with their crappy 5400 RPM drives, but even 7200 drives are > > three times slower than a good SSD. It's like buying a ferrari and > hooking > > it up to a Clydesdale to pull it down the road. Plus the SSD has no > moving > > parts and is lower powered. What's not to like (other than price). > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/8/2014 5:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > > > >> Speaking of moving forwards. > >> > >> Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the > >> humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) > HDDs? > >> > >> I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap > >> between > >> laptop and desktop is levelled. > >> > >> My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go > >> through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for > sure > >> I > >> can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me > >> any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about > >> data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right > >> hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. > >> > >> BB > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 17:00:11 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 18:00:11 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201cf3b22$29a8d110$7cfa7330$@gmail.com> Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 17:01:52 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 18:01:52 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001201cf3b22$29a8d110$7cfa7330$@gmail.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> <001201cf3b22$29a8d110$7cfa7330$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501cf3b22$6631f2b0$3295d810$@gmail.com> Where "graphing" substitute "flowcharting." It's emotion taking over. I just spend $133 buying the 2013 version of Vision on E-Bay only to find my most necessary use no longer supported. Shame on me, but MS has lost me as a devotee forever. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Sat Mar 8 17:18:52 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:18:52 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001201cf3b22$29a8d110$7cfa7330$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403082318.s28NItgZ001702@databaseadvisors.com> Hey Bill Microsoft has been doing this for years. They did it with ACCESS, Windows 8 came out and they dropped some of major components (my experience) that ACCESS 2003 tied into with the operating system. It took me a major rewrite when the client updated to the new operating system. My comment is "Who is the macaroon that decided to do that". That is why I have abandoned ACCESS. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: March-08-14 5:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7168 - Release Date: 03/08/14 From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 17:55:25 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 18:55:25 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Membership File Changes In-Reply-To: <531941BE.29811.1E1ED057@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <1394151346.43104.YahooMailNeo@web185003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <00b701cf39a8$74fcfea0$5ef6fbe0$@gmail.com> <531941BE.29811.1E1ED057@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <001601cf3b29$e0be2790$a23a76b0$@gmail.com> Not that further argument were required, but some dude holding himself up to be a PhD recommends using composite ids in junction tables. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3uTWpuv54U I love how he says (quoting here) "...that will enable us to create the many to many relationship between the order and item tables"). I would say, it is a representation of that relationship, it does not allow anything. Note that the demo of one person's technique does not make it composite keys a best practice. I would still argue for surrogate keys as the PK in a crosstable, even if using a composite key as an index. That way the data row retains relevance even if later one decides to break down further the original FK tables in to subgroups. One can then, during a data cleanup exercise, relax the data integrity rules, modify the target table(s), and fix the cross table using an update query without losing the individual identity of the cross table records, even if they are temporary orphans. It's just a little extra space in a database, not the straw that breaks the camel's back. The video's author also calls a junction a "lookup table", which I think bespeaks a little loss of credibility, but I gather the misnomer is becoming commonpalce. Anyway, I love how he "casually" says reverse engineering is dropped in Visio. Wish I had watched this painful video before I laid out $133 for the software. %$#%!!! B. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 10:49 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Membership File Changes GUID? I agree - very good for replication and/or multi remote data input locations. Not just web based either - email, ftp, offline tablets returned to base and data transfer via USB sticks from remote locations are all common scenarios. As for cross tables, I agree with you. I differentiate between tables which store Entity and Link (Cross) data. Surrogate PKs on the former are standard. In the latter case, they are only useful if the connection between entities has properties which should be stored in a child table. But as soon as the link has such properties it becomes an Entity in its own right and I would use a SurrogatePK -- Stuart On 6 Mar 2014 at 20:56, Bill Benson wrote: > Can't resist jumping in here, maybe I will learn something... My own > experience is too limited to claim to be an expert in this matter. If > you are going to jump down my throat, please take your boots off > first. > > AFAIK, GUID is used for only two reasons: (1) When a relational > database is distributed in more than one location via replication and > (2) when some transactions are created client-side then handed back to > the server via web methods. I would expect GUID to be relatively poor, > but in some situations reliable whereas getting the next higher number > through autonumber (or a sequence on the database) may not be so. > > As for multi-field PKs, I think where they make sense is in cross > tables? > > If I have a subscription that consists of a Customer and a > Publication, I can usually prevent duplicate subscriptions by keeping > track only of CustomerID and PublicationID. If John Jones has ordered > The Economist, then I would keep a composite ID in the Subscriptions > table of FKCustomerID and FKPublicationID. > > Of course, this begs the question what happens when John Jones orders > The Economist for his three sisters. But in that more complex > situation, it would just change the FKCustomerID to instead be > FKRecipientID and we arrive at the same deduction: we really do not > need a SubscriptionID and it serves no purpose either in terms of > speeding up the database, nor giving us any descriptive information. > > For those who contend our database acts any faster with it, I would > ask, how so? > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From df.waters at comcast.net Sat Mar 8 18:44:12 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 18:44:12 -0600 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cf3b30$b0f5c700$12e15500$@comcast.net> Hi Bill, I have two SSD's in my desktop, and the performance is outstanding. When I switched over, I did a full backup for both the original hard drives, then swapped those out for the two SSD's, then used the backup software disk to 'restore' the software from the backups to the two SSD's (C drive + D drive). Easy! Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:05 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 18:52:28 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 19:52:28 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <000001cf3b30$b0f5c700$12e15500$@comcast.net> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <000001cf3b30$b0f5c700$12e15500$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000001cf3b31$d91b6040$8b5220c0$@gmail.com> Cool, thanks Dan. Now we've heard from another proponent of Desktops, indirectly!! Maybe you can write me offlist to tell me what backup software helped you perform this cross-install. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 7:44 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi Bill, I have two SSD's in my desktop, and the performance is outstanding. When I switched over, I did a full backup for both the original hard drives, then swapped those out for the two SSD's, then used the backup software disk to 'restore' the software from the backups to the two SSD's (C drive + D drive). Easy! Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:05 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 22:38:56 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 23:38:56 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531BF060.9010503@gmail.com> I had to buy Windows 7 to overwrite the Windows 8 install so yea, it was a complete clean install. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 5:28 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Did you have to reinstall everything you had already put on the as-built > drive or did you use some imaging software that got you across the goal > line? > On Mar 8, 2014 5:15 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >> I spent $300 for a 500GB Samsung EVO SSD for my $1000 HP Envy 17. Night >> and day difference in performance, loading and writing EVERYTHING. Laptops >> are crippled with their crappy 5400 RPM drives, but even 7200 drives are >> three times slower than a good SSD. It's like buying a ferrari and hooking >> it up to a Clydesdale to pull it down the road. Plus the SSD has no moving >> parts and is lower powered. What's not to like (other than price). >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 5:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> >>> Speaking of moving forwards. >>> >>> Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the >>> humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? >>> >>> I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap >>> between >>> laptop and desktop is levelled. >>> >>> My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go >>> through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure >>> I >>> can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me >>> any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about >>> data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right >>> hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. >>> >>> BB >>> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 22:40:07 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 23:40:07 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com> <531B9648.9040002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531BF0A7.1000100@gmail.com> It is internal. I pulled out the internal 5400 rpm drive and replaced it with the SSD. They are the same form factor. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 5:57 PM, jack drawbridge wrote: > John, > > Do you have an internal HDD on your laptop or is what you have for HDD all > USB connected? > I see the EVo 500 GB SSD at newegg for 279 now. > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147249 > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> Did you have to reinstall everything you had already put on the as-built >> drive or did you use some imaging software that got you across the goal >> line? >> On Mar 8, 2014 5:15 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: >> >>> I spent $300 for a 500GB Samsung EVO SSD for my $1000 HP Envy 17. Night >>> and day difference in performance, loading and writing EVERYTHING. >> Laptops >>> are crippled with their crappy 5400 RPM drives, but even 7200 drives are >>> three times slower than a good SSD. It's like buying a ferrari and >> hooking >>> it up to a Clydesdale to pull it down the road. Plus the SSD has no >> moving >>> parts and is lower powered. What's not to like (other than price). >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 5:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >>> >>>> Speaking of moving forwards. >>>> >>>> Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the >>>> humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) >> HDDs? >>>> I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap >>>> between >>>> laptop and desktop is levelled. >>>> >>>> My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go >>>> through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for >> sure >>>> I >>>> can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me >>>> any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about >>>> data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right >>>> hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. >>>> >>>> BB >>>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 9 03:55:50 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 08:55:50 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <66a45c07c3d9471296c6e81a672e95a2@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Bill We mount all workstations (except some old running WinXP), laptops, and servers (boot drives) with SSDs. Performance is outstanding - users actually experience an improvement and - combined with 24" or 27" monitors - it makes users happy. In addition, you save some power. However, we only use the fastest which happened to be Intel 520 and its successor. /gustav Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Bill Benson Sendt: 8. marts 2014 23:04 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 11:51:18 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 12:51:18 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <66a45c07c3d9471296c6e81a672e95a2@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com>, <66a45c07c3d9471296c6e81a672e95a2@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <000c01cf3bb7$cba7f5f0$62f7e1d0$@gmail.com> Ohhhhhhhhhhh I want to work there! -- Presently working from home and all equip purchases are mine and need to be approved by management (wife). -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 4:56 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi Bill We mount all workstations (except some old running WinXP), laptops, and servers (boot drives) with SSDs. Performance is outstanding - users actually experience an improvement and - combined with 24" or 27" monitors - it makes users happy. In addition, you save some power. However, we only use the fastest which happened to be Intel 520 and its successor. /gustav Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Bill Benson Sendt: 8. marts 2014 23:04 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 12:23:12 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:23:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531B752B.708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1018971632.9097858.1394385792274.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John and others > > I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. > > All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. > > http://labs.bittorrent.com/ > > ...and... > > http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so > that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive > cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by > Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is > synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is > greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document > you edited). > > However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) > information. > > Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they > resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >> get re-encrypted automatically? >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >> >>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>> >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>> >>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>> for >>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>> >>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>> >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>> have >>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>> >>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>> time >>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>> live >>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>> of >>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>> >>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>> >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>> >>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 12:25:27 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <942428297.9099061.1394385927829.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: The old saying is still true; "There is no substitute for speed". ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 2:04:46 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Speaking of moving forwards. Does any geeky guy/gal want to weigh in on whether SSDs are worth the humongous price per gb difference versus standard (spinning platter) HDDs? I think that this is may be one area where the speed/durability gap between laptop and desktop is levelled. My only reason besides cost for not switching over is I don't want to go through more re - installs of my "everything". But if I find out for sure I can upgrade without installing everything (and fr--no Dell won't give me any coaching because "Our policy at Dell forbids us from talking about data." Excuse me, you are a tech company and that involves data, right hmmm? Fuhgettaboudit. BB -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 12:30:34 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 11:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001501cf3b22$6631f2b0$3295d810$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <396384516.9100961.1394386234023.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: ...And there is some good substitutes as well: http://www.maketecheasier.com/5-best-free-alternatives-to-microsoft-visio/ Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:01:52 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Where "graphing" substitute "flowcharting." It's emotion taking over. I just spend $133 buying the 2013 version of Vision on E-Bay only to find my most necessary use no longer supported. Shame on me, but MS has lost me as a devotee forever. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:08:25 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 14:08:25 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <000c01cf3bb7$cba7f5f0$62f7e1d0$@gmail.com> References: <955661160.8681327.1394307132001.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531B752B.708@gmail.com>, <66a45c07c3d9471296c6e81a672e95a2@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000c01cf3bb7$cba7f5f0$62f7e1d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01cf3bc2$91f069e0$b5d13da0$@gmail.com> Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 HDD to a SSD. I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, and I rarely use the CD/DVD. If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive operational? Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the right form factor. I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: 2.5" SSD 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives From vbacreations at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 13:10:22 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 14:10:22 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <396384516.9100961.1394386234023.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <001501cf3b22$6631f2b0$3295d810$@gmail.com> <396384516.9100961.1394386234023.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <001f01cf3bc2$d785fb50$8691f1f0$@gmail.com> Thank you, I just bought Visio 2010 on eBAY for $99. I call that biting the bullet. It is a function of laziness and anxiety. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 1:31 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi Bill: ...And there is some good substitutes as well: http://www.maketecheasier.com/5-best-free-alternatives-to-microsoft-visio/ Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:01:52 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Where "graphing" substitute "flowcharting." It's emotion taking over. I just spend $133 buying the 2013 version of Vision on E-Bay only to find my most necessary use no longer supported. Shame on me, but MS has lost me as a devotee forever. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Sun Mar 9 15:32:09 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 15:32:09 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001f01cf3bc2$d785fb50$8691f1f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403092032.s29KWBrt024302@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All Please excuse my naivety but what is all this "crap" about? Tried to follow this line and what it has to do with ACCESS, but it is just baffling me. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: March-09-14 1:10 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Thank you, I just bought Visio 2010 on eBAY for $99. I call that biting the bullet. It is a function of laziness and anxiety. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 1:31 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi Bill: ...And there is some good substitutes as well: http://www.maketecheasier.com/5-best-free-alternatives-to-microsoft-visio/ Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:01:52 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Where "graphing" substitute "flowcharting." It's emotion taking over. I just spend $133 buying the 2013 version of Vision on E-Bay only to find my most necessary use no longer supported. Shame on me, but MS has lost me as a devotee forever. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7169 - Release Date: 03/08/14 From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 15:42:13 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 14:42:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001d01cf3bc2$91f069e0$b5d13da0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <545778010.9189198.1394397733365.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 HDD to a SSD. I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, and I rarely use the CD/DVD. If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive operational? Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the right form factor. I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: 2.5" SSD 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 15:44:14 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 14:44:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <001f01cf3bc2$d785fb50$8691f1f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2085959049.9189950.1394397854092.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: Well if your application no longer does what you need and there are free or inexpensive products that do...IMO, just bail and move on. JIm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:10:22 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Thank you, I just bought Visio 2010 on eBAY for $99. I call that biting the bullet. It is a function of laziness and anxiety. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 1:31 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hi Bill: ...And there is some good substitutes as well: http://www.maketecheasier.com/5-best-free-alternatives-to-microsoft-visio/ Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:01:52 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Where "graphing" substitute "flowcharting." It's emotion taking over. I just spend $133 buying the 2013 version of Vision on E-Bay only to find my most necessary use no longer supported. Shame on me, but MS has lost me as a devotee forever. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 6:00 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Today is the day I decided to sell all my Microsoft stock come Monday. It will not be because of windows, it will be because they dropped the reverse engineering function from Visio. Who the HELL creates a new version of a flagship graphing tool, and drops one of the very best parts of the software, without thinking "Who might this screw??" If MS thought about it, and did it regardless, they should go out of business and move over for a new vendor who understands their user base better. If they did not think about it, see above sentence. I am out of that stock forever and will be rooting against them from now on. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 17:27:31 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:27:31 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <1018971632.9097858.1394385792274.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1018971632.9097858.1394385792274.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531CEAD3.2070603@gmail.com> Yes but... Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the speed my client purchased). And then try getting it back again if needed. Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files of a few kbytes each average. It would still take a long time to get up there (in total) but getting any individual file is quick and easy. So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully about the implications. In my case I wanted to store database backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. > > ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Hi John and others >> >> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. >> >> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. >> >> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ >> >> ...and... >> >> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John W Colby" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so >> that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive >> cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by >> Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is >> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is >> greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document >> you edited). >> >> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) >> information. >> >> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they >> resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>> Hi John: >>> >>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >>> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >>> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >>> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >>> get re-encrypted automatically? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >>> >>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>>> >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>>> for >>>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>>> >>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>>> >>>>> Doug >>>>> >>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>>> have >>>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>>> time >>>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>>> live >>>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>>> of >>>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>>> >>>>>> at >>>>>> >>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 17:39:30 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:39:30 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <545778010.9189198.1394397733365.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <545778010.9189198.1394397733365.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531CEDA2.3070609@gmail.com> >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed but for redundancy. That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed immensely. Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in SATA ports. I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the cost of the card. It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes loading stuff into RAM. Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load RAM quickly becomes an issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec load speeds off of two year old technology drives (SATA3). I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO drives and probably doubling that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where the benefit pays for itself quickly. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > HDD to a SSD. > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > operational? > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the > right form factor. > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > 2.5" SSD > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Sun Mar 9 18:07:46 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 18:07:46 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531CEDA2.3070609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403092307.s29N7nPp024649@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed but for redundancy. That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed immensely. Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in SATA ports. I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the cost of the card. It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes loading stuff into RAM. Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load RAM quickly becomes an issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec load speeds off of two year old technology drives (SATA3). I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO drives and probably doubling that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where the benefit pays for itself quickly. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > HDD to a SSD. > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > operational? > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the > right form factor. > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > 2.5" SSD > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 18:59:56 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 17:59:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531CEAD3.2070603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1290434248.9265706.1394409596294.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: In your case, doing a client's backup from start to finish across the web would be insanity. If the clients are producing one of two TB of data a day then it is also impossible. ...But seeding first, and then syncing across the web or if you are doing a network backup...I tend to setup something locally for the client and then sometimes I would monitor the latest day's invoicing. If you are using scary huge data you should be getting serious getting a real backup system: http://www.ixsystems.com/techsnap One client had a IXSystem installed a little while ago: http://www.ixsystems.com/storage/freenas. Check out the FreeNAS Mini as the price does not seem excessive. If you are creating huge amounts of data and need to back it up maybe you should have a NAS box setup? If you need absolute reliability maybe you should be looking at various RAID technologies. Here is a link a great RAID reliability calculator: http://www.servethehome.com/raid-calculator/raid-reliability-calculator-simple-mttdl-model Note: If you are using RAID 6 or RAID Z3 (ZFS), the chances of losing data is zero or almost zero. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 3:27:31 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Yes but... Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the speed my client purchased). And then try getting it back again if needed. Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files of a few kbytes each average. It would still take a long time to get up there (in total) but getting any individual file is quick and easy. So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully about the implications. In my case I wanted to store database backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. > > ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Hi John and others >> >> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. >> >> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. >> >> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ >> >> ...and... >> >> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John W Colby" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so >> that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive >> cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by >> Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is >> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is >> greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document >> you edited). >> >> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) >> information. >> >> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they >> resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>> Hi John: >>> >>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >>> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >>> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >>> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >>> get re-encrypted automatically? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >>> >>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>>> >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>>> for >>>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>>> >>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>>> >>>>> Doug >>>>> >>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>>> have >>>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>>> time >>>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>>> live >>>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>>> of >>>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>>> >>>>>> at >>>>>> >>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>> protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 19:18:22 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 18:18:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531CEDA2.3070609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1313191857.9272968.1394410702271.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: "I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every home should have one. ;-) I know we have gone through this discussion before but given the amount of data you are working with and the complexity of the searches required, I would be so bold as to suggest that you at least look at the following technology from ElastciStretch: http://www.elasticsearch.org ...and... http://www.elasticsearch.org/resources < check out the webinar... The system in a nutshell is text based. The number of rows (document) is dependant on the hardware and can handle thirty-thousand plus columns. It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of data in milliseconds. The data can be limited to a single directory, a HD, a computer or a whole cluster. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 3:39:30 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed but for redundancy. That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed immensely. Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in SATA ports. I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the cost of the card. It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes loading stuff into RAM. Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load RAM quickly becomes an issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec load speeds off of two year old technology drives (SATA3). I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO drives and probably doubling that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where the benefit pays for itself quickly. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > HDD to a SSD. > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > operational? > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the > right form factor. > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > 2.5" SSD > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 9 19:19:44 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 18:19:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <201403092307.s29N7nPp024649@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <1085429034.9273290.1394410784876.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Tony: You are obviously not a tech fan or this question would never have to be asked. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Septav" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:07:46 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hey All Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed but for redundancy. That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed immensely. Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in SATA ports. I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the cost of the card. It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes loading stuff into RAM. Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load RAM quickly becomes an issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec load speeds off of two year old technology drives (SATA3). I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO drives and probably doubling that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where the benefit pays for itself quickly. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like learning the hard way. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > HDD to a SSD. > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard drive > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but it > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to a > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > operational? > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I had > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, or > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the new > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the old > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, at > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with the > right form factor. > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > 2.5" SSD > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 19:42:36 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 20:42:36 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <1085429034.9273290.1394410784876.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <201403092307.s29N7nPp024649@databaseadvisors.com> <1085429034.9273290.1394410784876.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Nor is he apparently a fan of tech fans. Probably not a fan of fans of tech fans either, LOL... On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Tony: > > You are obviously not a tech fan or this question would never have to be > asked. ;-) > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Septav" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:07:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Hey All > Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his > recommendation is to > never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like > learning > the hard way. > > LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed > but for redundancy. > That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed > immensely. > > Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in > SATA ports. I was able > to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the > cost of the card. > > It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes > loading stuff into RAM. > Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load > RAM > quickly becomes an > issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec > load speeds off of two > year old technology drives (SATA3). > > I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO > drives > and probably doubling > that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where > the benefit pays for > itself quickly. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Hi Bill: > > > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his > recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is > nothing like learning the hard way. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > > HDD to a SSD. > > > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard > drive > > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but > it > > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to > a > > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > > operational? > > > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I > had > > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, > or > > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the > new > > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the > old > > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, > at > > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with > the > > right form factor. > > > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > > 2.5" SSD > > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Sun Mar 9 20:57:19 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 20:57:19 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All You PMO I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: March-09-14 7:43 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Nor is he apparently a fan of tech fans. Probably not a fan of fans of tech fans either, LOL... On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Tony: > > You are obviously not a tech fan or this question would never have to be > asked. ;-) > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Septav" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:07:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Hey All > Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his > recommendation is to > never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like > learning > the hard way. > > LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for speed > but for redundancy. > That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed > immensely. > > Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the built-in > SATA ports. I was able > to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including the > cost of the card. > > It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes > loading stuff into RAM. > Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load > RAM > quickly becomes an > issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / sec > load speeds off of two > year old technology drives (SATA3). > > I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO > drives > and probably doubling > that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area where > the benefit pays for > itself quickly. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Hi Bill: > > > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and his > recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is > nothing like learning the hard way. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL E6530 > > HDD to a SSD. > > > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard > drive > > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, but > it > > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same time, > > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB to > a > > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new drive > > operational? > > > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished I > had > > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older HDD, > or > > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or (2) > > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the > new > > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the > old > > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD port, > at > > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with > the > > right form factor. > > > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, and > > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > > 2.5" SSD > > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 9 21:07:32 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:07:32 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531CEAD3.2070603@gmail.com> References: <1018971632.9097858.1394385792274.JavaMail.root@cds018>, <531CEAD3.2070603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531D1E64.9173.2D349D26@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Try it over the 2MB/415KB link which is the high end for businesses aroudn her, or the 512/128K link which many small businesses operate on :( -- Stuart On 9 Mar 2014 at 18:27, John W Colby wrote: > Yes but... > > Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the > speed my client purchased). And then try getting it back again if > needed. > > Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files > of a few kbytes each average. It would still take a long time to get > up there (in total) but getting any individual file is quick and easy. > > So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully > about the implications. In my case I wanted to store database > backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > Hi John: > > > > The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be > > slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, > > seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just > > allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start > > everything from a knowing base. > > > > ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the > > network quietly in the background. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John W Colby" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 > > 11:53:15 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited > > to your internet speed. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi John and others > >> > >> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my > >> files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and > >> repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories > >> are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. > >> > >> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the > >> directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a > >> 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a > >> copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The > >> product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If > >> you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, > >> it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so > >> syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very > >> fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. > >> > >> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ > >> > >> ...and... > >> > >> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "John W Colby" > >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 > >> 8:23:51 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > >> > >> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then > >> mounts that container as a drive so that you can see the files > >> contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted > >> drive cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and > >> are therefore automatically synced by Dropbox. The biggest problem > >> (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is > >> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. > >> Thus the overhead of the sync is greater, i.e. one large file is > >> synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document > >> you edited). > >> > >> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and > >> videos, only business (sensitive) information. > >> > >> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed > >> parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they resend the whole file, even if > >> you just change a single character. > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> > >> Reality is what refuses to go away > >> when you do not believe in it > >> > >> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >>> Hi John: > >>> > >>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound > >>> like the BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the > >>> BoxCryptor drive. > >>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean > >>> that you > >>> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document > >>> that is stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the > >>> new file version get re-encrypted automatically? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are > >>>> not encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on > >>>> drop box. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> John W. Colby > >>>> > >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away > >>>> when you do not believe in it > >>>> > >>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use > >>>>> Dropbox for syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox > >>>>> folder. That syncs continuously on any file changes when I'm > >>>>> connected to the Internet, and also means I have three identical > >>>>> copies of every file - one on each computer and one in the > >>>>> cloud. > >>>>> > >>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers > >>>>> simultaneously and make changes to both. You end up with two > >>>>> copies of the file - one labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's > >>>>> happened to me a few times when I've made changes at home, then > >>>>> forgotten to close the file and later made changes on the laptop > >>>>> away from home. > >>>>> > >>>>> Doug > >>>>> > >>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, > >>>>> here's one distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the > >>>>> hardware with an iron fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run > >>>>> Windows on Parallels). A full backup of either of my computers > >>>>> will restore to either machine just fine. > >>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that > >>>>> Apple > >>>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, > >>>>> offline backups to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - > >>>>> this has saved my bacon a couple of times. I had a hard drive > >>>>> failure recently, so all I did was plug in a backup drive, boot > >>>>> to it, recover the files I needed, install a new HD, restore the > >>>>> system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then copy my > >>>>> recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, > >>>>> not counting the HD replacement. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, > >>>>> external > >>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and > >>>>>> feel and performance of a desktop machine. However we > >>>>>> developers need to build for lesser performing client > >>>>>> (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution is fast for > >>>>>> us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, > >>>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons > >>>>>> to use a desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are > >>>>>> like me, you may have lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a > >>>>>> desktop running dual drives with RAID 3 would have been nice at > >>>>>> such times. Also, the faster spin and huge capacities of > >>>>>> desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and > >>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and > >>>>>> nature, skimpy on ports. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in > >>>>>> terms of programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use > >>>>>> a laptop as a home system, I would use it only when moving > >>>>>> around the house to "run" my desktop remotely, if for no other > >>>>>> reason than data protection. But the time cost of keeping > >>>>>> everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I live with > >>>>>> the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). > >>>>>> I compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop > >>>>>> becomes obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not > >>>>>> be able to get recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, > >>>>>> my E6510 could not be recovered to a E6530... although I have > >>>>>> heard that with the 2014 edition of Acronis True Image one can > >>>>>> recover from one hardware configuration to another. I have my > >>>>>> doubts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run > >>>>>> into. I use a > >>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against > >>>>>>> the wall > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> at > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> John W. Colby > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away > >>>>>>> when you do not believe in it > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with > >>>>>>> external mouse > >>>>>>>> (wireless) and second > >>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - > >>>>>>>> 1366 x 768). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has > >>>>>>>> a full keyboard with numeric keypad. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > >>>>>>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list > >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>> AccessD mailing list > >>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > >>>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> AccessD mailing list > >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>>> > >> --- > >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > >> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com > >> > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 9 23:03:12 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 00:03:12 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <1290434248.9265706.1394409596294.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1290434248.9265706.1394409596294.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531D3980.5070604@gmail.com> I already do that, Raid6 backup on a different machine. And I don't do anything like a terabyte a day, not sure where you got that idea. I was just commenting that all of these huge amounts of cloud storage are mostly useless. One of these companies is selling up to 10 tb. How on earth would you get it up there or back down? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 7:59 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > In your case, doing a client's backup from start to finish across the web would be insanity. If the clients are producing one of two TB of data a day then it is also impossible. ...But seeding first, and then syncing across the web or if you are doing a network backup...I tend to setup something locally for the client and then sometimes I would monitor the latest day's invoicing. If you are using scary huge data you should be getting serious getting a real backup system: http://www.ixsystems.com/techsnap > > One client had a IXSystem installed a little while ago: http://www.ixsystems.com/storage/freenas. Check out the FreeNAS Mini as the price does not seem excessive. > > If you are creating huge amounts of data and need to back it up maybe you should have a NAS box setup? If you need absolute reliability maybe you should be looking at various RAID technologies. Here is a link a great RAID reliability calculator: > > http://www.servethehome.com/raid-calculator/raid-reliability-calculator-simple-mttdl-model > > Note: If you are using RAID 6 or RAID Z3 (ZFS), the chances of losing data is zero or almost zero. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 3:27:31 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Yes but... > > Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the speed my client purchased). > And then try getting it back again if needed. > > Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files of a few kbytes each average. > It would still take a long time to get up there (in total) but getting any individual file is quick > and easy. > > So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully about the implications. In my > case I wanted to store database backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. >> >> ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John W Colby" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>> Hi John and others >>> >>> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. >>> >>> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. >>> >>> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ >>> >>> ...and... >>> >>> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John W Colby" >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>> >>> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so >>> that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive >>> cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by >>> Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is >>> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is >>> greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document >>> you edited). >>> >>> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) >>> information. >>> >>> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they >>> resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>> Hi John: >>>> >>>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >>>> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >>>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >>>> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >>>> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >>>> get re-encrypted automatically? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>>>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>>>> for >>>>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doug >>>>>> >>>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>>>> live >>>>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:02:48 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:02:48 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] ElasticSearch my hind leg... In-Reply-To: <1313191857.9272968.1394410702271.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1313191857.9272968.1394410702271.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531D4778.1040808@gmail.com> >>"I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every home should have one. ;-) LOL, this is a business not a home. >>It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of data in milliseconds. And read the fine print. NOBODY does those kinds of numbers without enormous cloud compute (and enormous budgets). Give me some credit please for what I have managed to do for a virtual company of about 7 people, with a total hardware budget of around $20K over 9 years. I started with NO hardware and had never even seen SQL Server, and I hand built (eventually) a dual processor 16 core machine with 96 gigs of RAM, 9 TB of main (rotating) storage (RAID 6), a TB of SSD storage (Raid 5) to handle SQL Server, and a second server with 6 cores and 32 GB of RAM and 6 VMs running third party software, CAS and NCOA processing 500 million addresses every month AND handling the actual orders for the client as well. AND I designed and executed a very complex system in C# automating that SQL Server to push those 500 MILLION records to CSV files every month (that's 1000 CSV files BTW), pushing those files out to Accuzip on the virtual machines, babysitting Accuzip (third party software written in Visual Foxpro), and merging the 1000 result files back in to SQL Server. With the exception of a student (2 year graduate) C# programmer (I met when I took my C# classes) helping me, I did this all BY MY SELF. It is more than slightly annoying to have folks say "go look at xyz". Buddy I looked at a TON of stuff trying to get something that I could build and handle BY MY SELF, starting in 2004 when NONE of this hi-falutin crap you mention was even a gleam in it's daddy's eye. I hope you got the BY MY SELF reference. This is NOT IBM or Google or Facebook with a 50 million dollar data center and a team of programmers. This is Colby Consulting with John W. Colby doing the whole damned thing. When I say EVERYTHING I mean researching and ordering hardware from Newegg, joining the Microsoft program to get my hands on the software, BUILDING the hardware (and maintaining it, and upgrading it), installing all of the Windows 2003, then 2008 and SQL Server 2000 / 2005 / 2008 software, researching the Accuzip solution for CAS / NCOA, buying it and learning how it worked and how to automate it, designing the methodology for getting these big tables (text files) into databases in SQL Server, designing the C# application and writing same (with my assistant) over 18 months, all while actually performing work on those same SQL Server databases providing counts and fulfilling orders for my client. You are clueless what it took to get where I am today and what it would take to throw all this away just to use some other data store. The data store is 1/4 of the business that I manage. Maybe only 1/10th. I look back on the last nine years and wonder how I managed to get all that crap done. So no, it seems unlikely I am going to do that ElasticSearch thing. Not that it isn't fascinating and all, but being a one man show I have to pick my battles and that isn't something I need. Only $500 per year to monitor your first 5 nodes $3,000 per year for each 5 node cluster thereafter To get the numbers you mention I probably only need a thousand nodes. Uh yea... Or rather no... John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 8:18 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > "I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every home should have one. ;-) > > I know we have gone through this discussion before but given the amount of data you are working with and the complexity of the searches required, I would be so bold as to suggest that you at least look at the following technology from ElastciStretch: > > http://www.elasticsearch.org ...and... http://www.elasticsearch.org/resources < check out the webinar... > > The system in a nutshell is text based. The number of rows (document) is dependant on the hardware and can handle thirty-thousand plus columns. It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of data in milliseconds. The data can be limited to a single directory, a HD, a computer or a whole cluster. > > Jim > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:05:50 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:05:50 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: Well you have baited me/us so I will take the bait Tony, although you have put that chip on your shoulder before daring people to knock it off for you... I hate to waste good bait, even if it is yours. First I dis not mean to insult you, I was being clever. Maybe too clever by half. I BEG YOUR PARDON! I will also add that hardware is important to getting work done, as are all things twxhnologulical. Now, don't tell me that you really hung in there for 50 or so posts on a single thread which BEGAN with an OT kind of subject (and no one changed that subject TG so all posts stayed in my inbox grouped in the same conversation)... only to kick us now? ;) Don't look for insult where none is meant. Also, last I checked, you can't get much done with Access when you can't get much work done at all. AND THAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE IGNORE TECH. Good night all! On Mar 9, 2014 9:58 PM, "Tony Septav" wrote: > Hey All > You PMO > I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line not > a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not > insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. > > This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: March-09-14 7:43 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Nor is he apparently a fan of tech fans. Probably not a fan of fans of tech > fans either, LOL... > > > On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > Hi Tony: > > > > You are obviously not a tech fan or this question would never have to be > > asked. ;-) > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tony Septav" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:07:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > Hey All > > Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. > > > > Tony Septav > > Nanaimo, BC > > Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > > Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and > his > > recommendation is to > > never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like > > learning > > the hard way. > > > > LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for > speed > > but for redundancy. > > That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed > > immensely. > > > > Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the > built-in > > SATA ports. I was able > > to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including > the > > cost of the card. > > > > It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes > > loading stuff into RAM. > > Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load > > RAM > > quickly becomes an > > issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / > sec > > load speeds off of two > > year old technology drives (SATA3). > > > > I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO > > drives > > and probably doubling > > that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area > where > > the benefit pays for > > itself quickly. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > Hi Bill: > > > > > > An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and > his > > recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there > is > > nothing like learning the hard way. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bill Benson" > > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > > > > > Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL > E6530 > > > HDD to a SSD. > > > > > > I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard > > drive > > > caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, > but > > it > > > would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same > time, > > > and I rarely use the CD/DVD. > > > > > > If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB > to > > a > > > 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? > > > > > > Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone > > > function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new > drive > > > operational? > > > > > > Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished > I > > had > > > done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) > > > > > > Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older > HDD, > > or > > > on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using > > > bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or > (2) > > > using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the > > new > > > drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. > > > > > > Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the > > old > > > HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD > port, > > at > > > which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with > > the > > > right form factor. > > > > > > I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, > and > > > anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. > > > > > > So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: > > > 2.5" SSD > > > 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD > > > 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:09:20 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:09:20 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] ElasticSearch my hind leg... In-Reply-To: <531D4778.1040808@gmail.com> References: <1313191857.9272968.1394410702271.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531D4778.1040808@gmail.com> Message-ID: That 20K in Google stock would have bought you the Arabian Peninsula. Just saying.... Seriously John there ain't a soul on this forum who doesn't give you all the credit in the world. Except.... nope, not gonna go there. B On Mar 10, 2014 1:04 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >>"I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." > OMG...every home should have one. ;-) > > LOL, this is a business not a home. > > >>It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB > can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of > rows of data in milliseconds. > > And read the fine print. NOBODY does those kinds of numbers without > enormous cloud compute (and enormous budgets). > > Give me some credit please for what I have managed to do for a virtual > company of about 7 people, with a total hardware budget of around $20K over > 9 years. I started with NO hardware and had never even seen SQL Server, > and I hand built (eventually) a dual processor 16 core machine with 96 gigs > of RAM, 9 TB of main (rotating) storage (RAID 6), a TB of SSD storage (Raid > 5) to handle SQL Server, and a second server with 6 cores and 32 GB of RAM > and 6 VMs running third party software, CAS and NCOA processing 500 million > addresses every month AND handling the actual orders for the client as > well. AND I designed and executed a very complex system in C# automating > that SQL Server to push those 500 MILLION records to CSV files every month > (that's 1000 CSV files BTW), pushing those files out to Accuzip on the > virtual machines, babysitting Accuzip (third party software written in > Visual Foxpro), and merging the 1000 result files back in to SQL Server. > > With the exception of a student (2 year graduate) C# programmer (I met > when I took my C# classes) helping me, I did this all BY MY SELF. > > It is more than slightly annoying to have folks say "go look at xyz". > Buddy I looked at a TON of stuff trying to get something that I could > build and handle BY MY SELF, starting in 2004 when NONE of this hi-falutin > crap you mention was even a gleam in it's daddy's eye. > > I hope you got the BY MY SELF reference. This is NOT IBM or Google or > Facebook with a 50 million dollar data center and a team of programmers. > This is Colby Consulting with John W. Colby doing the whole damned thing. > When I say EVERYTHING I mean researching and ordering hardware from > Newegg, joining the Microsoft program to get my hands on the software, > BUILDING the hardware (and maintaining it, and upgrading it), installing > all of the Windows 2003, then 2008 and SQL Server 2000 / 2005 / 2008 > software, researching the Accuzip solution for CAS / NCOA, buying it and > learning how it worked and how to automate it, designing the methodology > for getting these big tables (text files) into databases in SQL Server, > designing the C# application and writing same (with my assistant) over 18 > months, all while actually performing work on those same SQL Server > databases providing counts and fulfilling orders for my client. > > You are clueless what it took to get where I am today and what it would > take to throw all this away just to use some other data store. The data > store is 1/4 of the business that I manage. Maybe only 1/10th. I look back > on the last nine years and wonder how I managed to get all that crap done. > > So no, it seems unlikely I am going to do that ElasticSearch thing. Not > that it isn't fascinating and all, but being a one man show I have to pick > my battles and that isn't something I need. > > Only $500 per year to monitor your first 5 nodes > $3,000 per year for each 5 node cluster thereafter > > To get the numbers you mention I probably only need a thousand nodes. Uh > yea... Or rather no... > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 8:18 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi John: >> >> "I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every >> home should have one. ;-) >> >> I know we have gone through this discussion before but given the amount >> of data you are working with and the complexity of the searches required, I >> would be so bold as to suggest that you at least look at the following >> technology from ElastciStretch: >> >> http://www.elasticsearch.org ...and... http://www.elasticsearch.org/ >> resources < check out the webinar... >> >> The system in a nutshell is text based. The number of rows (document) is >> dependant on the hardware and can handle thirty-thousand plus columns. It >> indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be >> indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of >> data in milliseconds. The data can be limited to a single directory, a HD, >> a computer or a whole cluster. >> >> Jim >> >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:11:47 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:11:47 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com> LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > A programmer walks into a bar and orders 1.00000000001000000...897175 root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that case, make it a double". John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > Hey All > You PMO > I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line not > a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not > insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. > > This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:13:07 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:13:07 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <531D49E3.9050707@gmail.com> And here I went and changed the subject line TWICE. My apologies. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/10/2014 1:05 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > Well you have baited me/us so I will take the bait Tony, although you have > put that chip on your shoulder before daring people to knock it off for > you... I hate to waste good bait, even if it is yours. > > First I dis not mean to insult you, I was being clever. Maybe too clever by > half. I BEG YOUR PARDON! > > I will also add that hardware is important to getting work done, as are all > things twxhnologulical. > > Now, don't tell me that you really hung in there for 50 or so posts on a > single thread which BEGAN with an OT kind of subject (and no one changed > that subject TG so all posts stayed in my inbox grouped in the same > conversation)... only to kick us now? ;) > > Don't look for insult where none is meant. > > Also, last I checked, you can't get much done with Access when you can't > get much work done at all. AND THAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE IGNORE TECH. > > Good night all! > On Mar 9, 2014 9:58 PM, "Tony Septav" wrote: > >> Hey All >> You PMO >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line not >> a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not >> insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. >> >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. >> >> Tony Septav >> Nanaimo, BC >> Canada >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson >> Sent: March-09-14 7:43 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> Nor is he apparently a fan of tech fans. Probably not a fan of fans of tech >> fans either, LOL... >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 8:19 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> >>> Hi Tony: >>> >>> You are obviously not a tech fan or this question would never have to be >>> asked. ;-) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tony Septav" >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >>> accessd at databaseadvisors.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:07:46 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>> >>> Hey All >>> Who cares. This is the biggest ditz I have ever seen. >>> >>> Tony Septav >>> Nanaimo, BC >>> Canada >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby >>> Sent: March-09-14 5:40 PM >>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>> >>> >>An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and >> his >>> recommendation is to >>> never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there is nothing like >>> learning >>> the hard way. >>> >>> LOL, I have a 1 terabyte raid 5 array with hot backup. It is not for >> speed >>> but for redundancy. >>> That said, striping the data across 5 drives ups the transfer speed >>> immensely. >>> >>> Of course the array is hosted on a dedicated raid card, NOT on the >> built-in >>> SATA ports. I was able >>> to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array for under $2000 including >> the >>> cost of the card. >>> >>> It is for my large databases on my SQL Server and it absolutely smokes >>> loading stuff into RAM. >>> Since I have 90GB of RAM dedicated to the SQL Server, being able to load >>> RAM >>> quickly becomes an >>> issue. With a RAID array and a dedicated controller I get over 1 gb / >> sec >>> load speeds off of two >>> year old technology drives (SATA3). >>> >>> I will be replacing those in the next few months with new Samsung EVO >>> drives >>> and probably doubling >>> that speed. Loading large database containers into SSDs is one area >> where >>> the benefit pays for >>> itself quickly. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/9/2014 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>>> Hi Bill: >>>> >>>> An aside but a worthy note: Was at a friends place the yesterday and >> his >>> recommendation is to never use a SSD in a RAID...all SSD or none...there >> is >>> nothing like learning the hard way. >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bill Benson" >>>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:08:25 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>>> >>>> Along the lines of SSD upgrade...I am considering upgrading my DELL >> E6530 >>>> HDD to a SSD. >>>> >>>> I think with DELLs I can rely on the CD ROM Bay accepting a 2nd hard >>> drive >>>> caddy - for between $30-$50. I don't know the speed it is capable of, >> but >>> it >>>> would give me a place have the two drives in the laptop at the same >> time, >>>> and I rarely use the CD/DVD. >>>> >>>> If I were to migrate my current drive which is 750GB but using < 300GB >> to >>> a >>>> 500GB Crucial SSD, would I have problems? >>>> >>>> Does anyone know whether using the installed Acronis software's Clone >>>> function (while Win 7 is running) will be a safe way to get the new >> drive >>>> operational? >>>> >>>> Will the result be optimized for that new drive, or will I have wished >> I >>> had >>>> done a clear install and put all my programs on again (sigh...) >>>> >>>> Another alternative is to "Recover" a TIB stored either on the older >> HDD, >>> or >>>> on Buffalo Linkstation, to the new drive. This could be done (1) using >>>> bootable Acronis media, if the new drive is put into the HDD bay, or >> (2) >>>> using Acronis software with the old drive still in the HDD bay and the >>> new >>>> drive in the CD ROM bay, or vice versa... OR SO I THINK. >>>> >>>> Last, if any of those approaches work, I should be able to then put the >>> old >>>> HDD in modular bay, in a caddy, and put the new SSD in the DELL HDD >> port, >>> at >>>> which point I probably need to buy an adaptor so it fits in there with >>> the >>>> right form factor. >>>> >>>> I am assuming that DELL treats whatever is in the HDD bay as primary, >> and >>>> anything in the modular bay as secondary, but I hardly know. >>>> >>>> So to rack 'em up, need to purchase: >>>> 2.5" SSD >>>> 2.5" internal caddy for DELL HDD >>>> 9" modular bay HDD caddy for 2.5" drives >>>> >>>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>> protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 00:29:13 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:29:13 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com> References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders 1.00000000001000000...897175 >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you >> > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that case, > make it a double". > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > >> Hey All >> You PMO >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line >> not >> a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not >> insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. >> >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. >> >> Tony Septav >> Nanaimo, BC >> Canada >> >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 10 00:51:26 2014 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 15:51:26 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com>, <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) -- Stuart On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > >> > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > case, make it a double". > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > >> Hey All > >> You PMO > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > >> attitudes. > >> > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > >> > >> Tony Septav > >> Nanaimo, BC > >> Canada > >> > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Mon Mar 10 01:13:20 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 01:13:20 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <201403100613.s2A6DOvs025337@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All Now we can all have a good laugh and not take life so seriously. And really is that not fun. Gotcha! Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: March-10-14 12:51 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) -- Stuart On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > >> > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > case, make it a double". > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > >> Hey All > >> You PMO > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > >> attitudes. > >> > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > >> > >> Tony Septav > >> Nanaimo, BC > >> Canada > >> > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 From gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 10 02:20:03 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:20:03 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Message-ID: Hi Tony You are right. We have the dba-tech list exactly for this stuff. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Tony Septav Sendt: 10. marts 2014 02:57 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... Hey All You PMO I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous attitudes. This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada From jimdettman at verizon.net Mon Mar 10 07:38:17 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 08:38:17 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com>, <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com>, <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: One of my fav quotes: "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 01:51 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) -- Stuart On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > >> > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > case, make it a double". > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > >> Hey All > >> You PMO > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > >> attitudes. > >> > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > >> > >> Tony Septav > >> Nanaimo, BC > >> Canada > >> > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 07:50:37 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:50:37 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com>, <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com>, <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <021a01cf3c5f$565c6850$031538f0$@gmail.com> How true. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:38 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... One of my fav quotes: "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't." Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 01:51 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) -- Stuart On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > >> > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > case, make it a double". > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > >> Hey All > >> You PMO > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > >> attitudes. > >> > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > >> > >> Tony Septav > >> Nanaimo, BC > >> Canada > >> > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 10 17:23:12 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 16:23:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531D3980.5070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <984409215.9938032.1394490192035.JavaMail.root@cds018> "...all of these huge amounts of cloud storage are mostly useless." ...agreed. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, 9 March, 2014 9:03:12 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... I already do that, Raid6 backup on a different machine. And I don't do anything like a terabyte a day, not sure where you got that idea. I was just commenting that all of these huge amounts of cloud storage are mostly useless. One of these companies is selling up to 10 tb. How on earth would you get it up there or back down? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 7:59 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > In your case, doing a client's backup from start to finish across the web would be insanity. If the clients are producing one of two TB of data a day then it is also impossible. ...But seeding first, and then syncing across the web or if you are doing a network backup...I tend to setup something locally for the client and then sometimes I would monitor the latest day's invoicing. If you are using scary huge data you should be getting serious getting a real backup system: http://www.ixsystems.com/techsnap > > One client had a IXSystem installed a little while ago: http://www.ixsystems.com/storage/freenas. Check out the FreeNAS Mini as the price does not seem excessive. > > If you are creating huge amounts of data and need to back it up maybe you should have a NAS box setup? If you need absolute reliability maybe you should be looking at various RAID technologies. Here is a link a great RAID reliability calculator: > > http://www.servethehome.com/raid-calculator/raid-reliability-calculator-simple-mttdl-model > > Note: If you are using RAID 6 or RAID Z3 (ZFS), the chances of losing data is zero or almost zero. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 3:27:31 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Yes but... > > Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the speed my client purchased). > And then try getting it back again if needed. > > Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files of a few kbytes each average. > It would still take a long time to get up there (in total) but getting any individual file is quick > and easy. > > So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully about the implications. In my > case I wanted to store database backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. >> >> ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John W Colby" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>> Hi John and others >>> >>> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. >>> >>> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. >>> >>> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ >>> >>> ...and... >>> >>> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John W Colby" >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>> >>> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then mounts that container as a drive so >>> that you can see the files contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted drive >>> cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and are therefore automatically synced by >>> Dropbox. The biggest problem (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is >>> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is >>> greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document >>> you edited). >>> >>> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and videos, only business (sensitive) >>> information. >>> >>> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they >>> resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>> Hi John: >>>> >>>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound like the >>>> BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >>>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean that you >>>> lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word document that is >>>> stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, does the new file version >>>> get re-encrypted automatically? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are not >>>>> encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use Dropbox >>>>>> for >>>>>> syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox folder. That syncs >>>>>> continuously on any file changes when I'm connected to the Internet, and >>>>>> also means I have three identical copies of every file - one on each >>>>>> computer and one in the cloud. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers simultaneously >>>>>> and make changes to both. You end up with two copies of the file - one >>>>>> labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's happened to me a few times when I've >>>>>> made changes at home, then forgotten to close the file and later made >>>>>> changes on the laptop away from home. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doug >>>>>> >>>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, here's one >>>>>> distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the hardware with an iron >>>>>> fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run Windows on Parallels). A full >>>>>> backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that Apple >>>>>> provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, offline backups >>>>>> to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - this has saved my bacon a >>>>>> couple of times. I had a hard drive failure recently, so all I did was >>>>>> plug in a backup drive, boot to it, recover the files I needed, install a >>>>>> new HD, restore the system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then >>>>>> copy my recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, >>>>>> not counting the HD replacement. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, external >>>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and feel and >>>>>>> performance of a desktop machine. However we developers need to build for >>>>>>> lesser performing client (customer) systems anyway, so that if a solution >>>>>>> is fast for us, we know it will be at least almost-fast for our customer, >>>>>>> and not the other way around. That said, there are some reasons to use a >>>>>>> desktop machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running dual drives with >>>>>>> RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. Also, the faster spin and huge >>>>>>> capacities of desktop HDDs is a plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and nature, >>>>>>> skimpy on ports. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms of >>>>>>> programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a laptop as a home >>>>>>> system, I would use it only when moving around the house to "run" my >>>>>>> desktop remotely, if for no other reason than data protection. But the >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> cost of keeping everything I want in two places is prohibitive, and I >>>>>>> live >>>>>>> with the risk of data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I >>>>>>> compensate by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able to get >>>>>>> recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 could not be >>>>>>> recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that with the 2014 edition >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Acronis True Image one can recover from one hardware configuration to >>>>>>> another. I have my doubts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run into. I use a >>>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against the wall >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>>>>>> when you do not believe in it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with external mouse >>>>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has a full >>>>>>>>> keyboard with numeric >>>>>>>>> keypad. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>>>>> protection is active. >>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >>>>> protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 10 18:20:18 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 17:20:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] ElasticSearch my hind leg... In-Reply-To: <531D4778.1040808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <430887221.9973913.1394493618895.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: Note: This is not Cloud computing specifically...it can be done on any server(s) you have in the office. Much of my work now...semi-retired is on legacy applications, some Linux stuff and web stuff...that is what the client wants but I do wish I had access to the technology that is out there today. To say the least it is far superior and if I ever had a chance to build a new major system I would never do what I did ten years ago. Aside: A few weeks ago a company that I had been managing and writing their invoicing and accounting since 1989 closed their doors. I had recently made the single station batching package into a multi-user/multi-tasking product...these capabilities are standard in today's development packages but not twenty years ago. Twenty five years of work and a product that did everything in the business, is now history...the amount of time and effort put into the application is in the thousands of hours. But with the knowledge I have learned I could probably re-build a better product in about three months. First of all I am not criticizing what you have done, dismissing the effort you have put into this project or results you have achieved as I think what you have done is stellar to say the least. But if you were starting from scratch today, you could generate the same result far cheaper and faster. I do not know which packages of ElasticSearch you were looking at but I downloaded the "ElasticSearch" engine for free...(It is not setup yet as I need another 64bit server or a loaded motherboard and a bunch of drives...) When you are talking nodes you are basically talking computers...100 nodes is a hundred computer cluster...this is not what you will need...probably ever. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, 9 March, 2014 10:02:48 PM Subject: [AccessD] ElasticSearch my hind leg... >>"I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every home should have one. ;-) LOL, this is a business not a home. >>It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of data in milliseconds. And read the fine print. NOBODY does those kinds of numbers without enormous cloud compute (and enormous budgets). Give me some credit please for what I have managed to do for a virtual company of about 7 people, with a total hardware budget of around $20K over 9 years. I started with NO hardware and had never even seen SQL Server, and I hand built (eventually) a dual processor 16 core machine with 96 gigs of RAM, 9 TB of main (rotating) storage (RAID 6), a TB of SSD storage (Raid 5) to handle SQL Server, and a second server with 6 cores and 32 GB of RAM and 6 VMs running third party software, CAS and NCOA processing 500 million addresses every month AND handling the actual orders for the client as well. AND I designed and executed a very complex system in C# automating that SQL Server to push those 500 MILLION records to CSV files every month (that's 1000 CSV files BTW), pushing those files out to Accuzip on the virtual machines, babysitting Accuzip (third party software written in Visual Foxpro), and merging the 1000 result files back in to SQL Server. With the exception of a student (2 year graduate) C# programmer (I met when I took my C# classes) helping me, I did this all BY MY SELF. It is more than slightly annoying to have folks say "go look at xyz". Buddy I looked at a TON of stuff trying to get something that I could build and handle BY MY SELF, starting in 2004 when NONE of this hi-falutin crap you mention was even a gleam in it's daddy's eye. I hope you got the BY MY SELF reference. This is NOT IBM or Google or Facebook with a 50 million dollar data center and a team of programmers. This is Colby Consulting with John W. Colby doing the whole damned thing. When I say EVERYTHING I mean researching and ordering hardware from Newegg, joining the Microsoft program to get my hands on the software, BUILDING the hardware (and maintaining it, and upgrading it), installing all of the Windows 2003, then 2008 and SQL Server 2000 / 2005 / 2008 software, researching the Accuzip solution for CAS / NCOA, buying it and learning how it worked and how to automate it, designing the methodology for getting these big tables (text files) into databases in SQL Server, designing the C# application and writing same (with my assistant) over 18 months, all while actually performing work on those same SQL Server databases providing counts and fulfilling orders for my client. You are clueless what it took to get where I am today and what it would take to throw all this away just to use some other data store. The data store is 1/4 of the business that I manage. Maybe only 1/10th. I look back on the last nine years and wonder how I managed to get all that crap done. So no, it seems unlikely I am going to do that ElasticSearch thing. Not that it isn't fascinating and all, but being a one man show I have to pick my battles and that isn't something I need. Only $500 per year to monitor your first 5 nodes $3,000 per year for each 5 node cluster thereafter To get the numbers you mention I probably only need a thousand nodes. Uh yea... Or rather no... John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 8:18 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > "I was able to get (7) 200gb SSDs and form the raid array..." OMG...every home should have one. ;-) > > I know we have gone through this discussion before but given the amount of data you are working with and the complexity of the searches required, I would be so bold as to suggest that you at least look at the following technology from ElastciStretch: > > http://www.elasticsearch.org ...and... http://www.elasticsearch.org/resources < check out the webinar... > > The system in a nutshell is text based. The number of rows (document) is dependant on the hardware and can handle thirty-thousand plus columns. It indexes everything and it is quick; according to the webinar, one TB can be indexed in about 90 seconds. The application can group millions of rows of data in milliseconds. The data can be limited to a single directory, a HD, a computer or a whole cluster. > > Jim > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 19:25:57 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:25:57 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] ElasticSearch my hind leg... In-Reply-To: <430887221.9973913.1394493618895.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <430887221.9973913.1394493618895.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <531E5815.8020106@gmail.com> >>Note: This is not Cloud computing specifically...it can be done on any server(s) you have in the office. I simply went to the ElasticSearch site and clicked every single menu item, poking around. The site is not particularly well designed, mostly marketing fluff. It is not cloud computing specifically, it is distributed computing. The data I deal with is NOT web page kind of stuff. It is not Google / Facebook / bing / search kind of stuff. It is pretty much straight up regular old data, properties about people used to select interests and therefore marketing. The vast majority of the data is single character fields. Has cat = 'Y'/'N' Has Dog = 'Y'/'N' Gender = 'M'/'F'/'U' Birthdate = some date Income = some long int ReligiousPreference = some single character - 'J' (Jewish) And of course FName Varchar(25) LName Varchar(25) Addr Varchar(50) City Varchar(50) St (char(2) Zip5 Char(5) Zip4 Char(4) Say what you will but the way I see this, this is straight up SQL stuff. Count (*) Where age (which is a dynamic calculation based on current date and the birthdate) > 30 and <=45 AND Gender = 'F' and HasDog = 'Y' and ReligiousPreference = 'J' Or alternately "Give me the names / addresses for the people with these properties in a specific zip list" These are precisely the kinds of queries I am asked to perform day in and day out. I have a third party Zip code list which has attributes of "Number of households in zip" and "Population in zip", as well as geo location (lat/lon). I am handed a list of 15 thousand zips and asked how many households and population in these zips. Or I am handed a single zip and asked for the population in a five mile radius of that one zip. These are very straight up SQL kind of questions. I know that you have a love of and hankering for these distributed processing systems but my data is very standard (and old fashioned) marketing stuff. SQL was designed precisely in order to manipulate these kinds of questions, and that is what I use. I am not searching a million paragraphs of input to blog pages looking for the word "KISS" or anything remotely like that. My data is huge, but only because the tables have anywhere from 5 million to 225 million records and anywhere from 20 fields to 640 fields. But the fields are mostly just Y/N or single character values 0-9/A-T (codes). Whatever database engine I use has to have a SQL kind of language behind it. I have to be able to pull name / address records based on these kinds of questions. SQL is NOT going away. I have read a ton of the interviews with execs from these data engines optimized for text search and to a man NONE of these folks say their systems work well for SQL type applications. They are not designed to do so. They do completely different kinds of things, and the things they do do not map to SQL apps, or what I am doing. SQL Server in fact does a great job of breaking down the queries into tasks which it feeds off to the cores. That is precisely why I went with a high core count machine. SQL Server very often pegs every core of my machine for minutes at a time as it performs the task of selecting records based on huge criteria lists. This is quite fascinating to watch as well. The biggest problem I face really is that it is simply impossible to index 640 fields in a meaningful way such that a question against any of these 640 fields always hits an index. What I do is index the most used fields, the zip, income, gender, religion etc, and then put up with the table scan of most of the other fields. I do occasionally create a cover index for a particularly large set of fields in very specific cases, but mostly not. And some of the smaller databases (smaller number of fields total) I may very well index more fields. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/10/2014 7:20 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > Note: This is not Cloud computing specifically...it can be done on any server(s) you have in the office. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jbartow at winhaven.net Mon Mar 10 22:29:22 2014 From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:29:22 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... In-Reply-To: <531D3980.5070604@gmail.com> References: <1290434248.9265706.1394409596294.JavaMail.root@cds018> <531D3980.5070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02b601cf3cda$18eb13b0$4ac13b10$@winhaven.net> That's what I initially thought too. Over the last couple of years, I've advised a number of clients that they could reduce their online backup charges a great deal by only backing up what is actually business critical data. But no one wants to put in the effort so they just don't delete anything. Crazy. The large online backup accounts have seeding - in other words I send in a disk with the first large backup and then just backup the incremental changes from that point. These services also offer a shipped disk for large restores. I manage online backups along with everything else I manage for clients. If I buy a huge chunk and use it for multiple accounts my cost goes down versus a slew of smaller chunks for each account. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 11:03 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... I already do that, Raid6 backup on a different machine. And I don't do anything like a terabyte a day, not sure where you got that idea. I was just commenting that all of these huge amounts of cloud storage are mostly useless. One of these companies is selling up to 10 tb. How on earth would you get it up there or back down? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/9/2014 7:59 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > In your case, doing a client's backup from start to finish across the > web would be insanity. If the clients are producing one of two TB of > data a day then it is also impossible. ...But seeding first, and then > syncing across the web or if you are doing a network backup...I tend > to setup something locally for the client and then sometimes I would > monitor the latest day's invoicing. If you are using scary huge data > you should be getting serious getting a real backup system: > http://www.ixsystems.com/techsnap > > One client had a IXSystem installed a little while ago: http://www.ixsystems.com/storage/freenas. Check out the FreeNAS Mini as the price does not seem excessive. > > If you are creating huge amounts of data and need to back it up maybe you should have a NAS box setup? If you need absolute reliability maybe you should be looking at various RAID technologies. Here is a link a great RAID reliability calculator: > > http://www.servethehome.com/raid-calculator/raid-reliability-calculato > r-simple-mttdl-model > > Note: If you are using RAID 6 or RAID Z3 (ZFS), the chances of losing data is zero or almost zero. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 3:27:31 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... > > Yes but... > > Try moving a hundred gig file up to the web over a 5 mbit up link (the speed my client purchased). > And then try getting it back again if needed. > > Yes I could see something like "my docs" where you have 10,000 files of a few kbytes each average. > It would still take a long time to get up there (in total) but getting > any individual file is quick and easy. > > So you have to know what you are trying to do and think carefully > about the implications. In my case I wanted to store database backups, but each database is tens of gigs. It just doesn't work. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/9/2014 1:23 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> The initial install of a set of directories is as always going to be slow as there is generally a lot of data to be moved. That is where, seeding the destination directory via portable drive or just allowing the destination storage to trickle fill will start everything from a knowing base. >> >> ...After that though the changes of a file or two ripple across the network quietly in the background. >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John W Colby" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 11:53:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >> >> And local is just fine, but up to the cloud will always be limited to your internet speed. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/8/2014 2:32 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>> Hi John and others >>> >>> I have been using BitTorrent Sync to encrypt and synchronize all my files. You just create or attach a directory on one machine and repeat it on another. It does not matter whether the directories are on the network, Cloud or somewhere across the internet. >>> >>> All that is needed is a "key" and that key can signify whether the directories are always synced, synced one-way or just synced for a 24 hour period. On both ends there is a hidden archive the saves a copy of changed or deleted files in case of a misadventure. The product is fully supported on all platforms and is very fast. If you are transferring files to a number of station simultaneously, it uses the resources of all the stations (standard BitTorrent) so syncing is limited only by the capabilities of the hardware...very fast. Of course it is absolutely secure; AES 256 encryption. >>> >>> http://labs.bittorrent.com/ >>> >>> ...and... >>> >>> http://www.bittorrent.com/sync/downloads >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "John W Colby" >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >>> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2014 8:23:51 AM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] apocalypse someday... >>> >>> Boxcryptor creates an encrypted container in dropbox. It then >>> mounts that container as a drive so that you can see the files >>> contained in the encrypted file. Changes to files in the mounted >>> drive cause the boxcryptor container file in DropBox to change, and >>> are therefore automatically synced by Dropbox. The biggest problem >>> (there is no free lunch) is that it is the boxcryptor file that is >>> synced, not the individual files inside of the boxcryptor file. Thus the overhead of the sync is greater, i.e. one large file is synced (the boxcryptor container), not one small file (the document you edited). >>> >>> However it is not intended for encrypting your music, pictures and >>> videos, only business (sensitive) information. >>> >>> Dropbox really needs to do a better job of syncing just changed >>> parts of files. ATM (AFAICT) they resend the whole file, even if you just change a single character. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 3/8/2014 10:47 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>> Hi John: >>>> >>>> I had a look at BoxCryptor and their video. That makes it sound >>>> like the BoxCryptor software doesn't track changes to files in the BoxCryptor drive. >>>> They only mention copying files to BoxCryptor. Does that mean >>>> that you lose real-time syncing of changes? If you open a Word >>>> document that is stored in BoxCryptor, edit, then do a File/Save, >>>> does the new file version get re-encrypted automatically? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 7:30 AM, John W Colby wrote: >>>> >>>>> Another problem with Dropbox is security, the stored contents are >>>>> not encrypted. I use BoxCryptor to encrypt sensitive files up on drop box. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John W. Colby >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it >>>>> >>>>> On 3/8/2014 10:24 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a desktop at home and use a laptop when I'm away. I use >>>>>> Dropbox for syncing - all my working files are in my Dropbox >>>>>> folder. That syncs continuously on any file changes when I'm >>>>>> connected to the Internet, and also means I have three identical >>>>>> copies of every file - one on each computer and one in the cloud. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only gotcha is if you open a file on the two computers >>>>>> simultaneously and make changes to both. You end up with two >>>>>> copies of the file - one labelled 'Conflicted Copy'. That's >>>>>> happened to me a few times when I've made changes at home, then >>>>>> forgotten to close the file and later made changes on the laptop away from home. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doug >>>>>> >>>>>> PS Speaking of backing up different hardware configurations, >>>>>> here's one distinct advantage to Macs, where Apple controls the >>>>>> hardware with an iron fist. Both my computers are Macs (I run >>>>>> Windows on Parallels). A full backup of either of my computers will restore to either machine just fine. >>>>>> As well as the standard Time Capsule continuous backup that >>>>>> Apple provides, I use a program called Super Duper for regular, >>>>>> offline backups to USB drives. The drives are fully bootable - >>>>>> this has saved my bacon a couple of times. I had a hard drive >>>>>> failure recently, so all I did was plug in a backup drive, boot >>>>>> to it, recover the files I needed, install a new HD, restore the >>>>>> system with the last good Time Capsule backup, then copy my >>>>>> recovered files back. The whole process took less than an hour, not counting the HD replacement. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Bill Benson >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I use a DELL laptop with port replicator and dual monitors, >>>>>> external >>>>>>> kb/trackball... and this in general gives me all the look and >>>>>>> feel and performance of a desktop machine. However we developers >>>>>>> need to build for lesser performing client (customer) systems >>>>>>> anyway, so that if a solution is fast for us, we know it will be >>>>>>> at least almost-fast for our customer, and not the other way >>>>>>> around. That said, there are some reasons to use a desktop >>>>>>> machine, and that is durability... If you are like me, you may >>>>>>> have lost a laptop HD a time or two. Having a desktop running >>>>>>> dual drives with RAID 3 would have been nice at such times. >>>>>>> Also, the faster spin and huge capacities of desktop HDDs is a >>>>>>> plus, as are the plethora of ports and >>>>>>> (generally) better ports. Laptops are, due to form factor and >>>>>>> nature, skimpy on ports. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I knew of a simple way to keep dual systems in synch in terms >>>>>>> of programs and OS and data, there is no way I would use a >>>>>>> laptop as a home system, I would use it only when moving around >>>>>>> the house to "run" my desktop remotely, if for no other reason >>>>>>> than data protection. But the time cost of keeping everything I >>>>>>> want in two places is prohibitive, and I live with the risk of >>>>>>> data shock with everything on one system (laptop). I compensate >>>>>>> by regular full system backups, but if my laptop becomes >>>>>>> obsolete, that multi-partition backup probably will not be able >>>>>>> to get recovered to a new one. Happened just last year, my E6510 >>>>>>> could not be recovered to a E6530... although I have heard that >>>>>>> with the 2014 edition of Acronis True Image one can recover from >>>>>>> one hardware configuration to another. I have my doubts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:31 PM, John W Colby wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LOL, my HP laptop has the worst keyboard I have EVER run >>>>>>> into. I use a >>>>>>>> wireless keyboard and mouse. The laptop is propped up against >>>>>>>> the wall >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the edge of the table, completely out of the way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John W. Colby >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/7/2014 11:23 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm the same. I do all of my work on a laptop with >>>>>>>> external mouse >>>>>>>>> (wireless) and second >>>>>>>>> monitor attached (the laptop primary screen is 15.6in - 1366 x 768). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't bother with an external keyboard since the laptop has >>>>>>>>> a full keyboard with numeric keypad. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>>>>>> Antivirus protection is active. >>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>>> Antivirus protection is active. >>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> AccessD mailing list >>>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>> --- >>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >>> http://www.avast.com >>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From kost36 at otenet.gr Tue Mar 11 02:47:51 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:47:51 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] MYSQL and msaccess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi guys, I have some problems with the mysql connection and how to make a synchronization between two databases. So I took the liberty to write to you in case you have any good idea. I have already migrate my access, building an mysql database on an external server (tables, views, queries etc etc...) It works fine online but while I am trying to add or change data with a connected ms access via ODBC, it presents a very very very long delay (more than 10-12 minutes for every search)... For that reason I thought I would do the following: a new job, building a local mysql database in which access via ODBC real responses quickly and Then after working and finishing local my daily records updates to make a synchronization between server and local files... It sounds as a good solution but that?s the point all the problems begin Names of all remote tables begin with uppercase such as MT_films, ST_peoplefilm or T_actors etc and as it seems MySQL Workbench 5.2 CE (which I use for that) after synchronization converts everything with lowercase (mt_films, st_peoplefilm, t_actors etc) something means that the sql code on views and queries doesn?t work... any good idea? Do you know any other mysql synchronization utility do that? best regards /kostas From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 14:41:27 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 14:41:27 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403100613.s2A6DOvs025337@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <201403111941.s2BJfVHg030066@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All The Gotcha worked, the stream has ended. Sorry you may find me a PIA, but Gosh we have to laugh. Sorry if I have caused, any inconveniences or bad feelings. But hey guys and girls ACCESS is a dinosaur. Wish as I might it is not coming back in any competitive form that we see today. But........... I still love the goofy individuals on this list. Just do not phone me, I am not your buddy. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: March-10-14 1:13 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey All Now we can all have a good laugh and not take life so seriously. And really is that not fun. Gotcha! Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: March-10-14 12:51 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) -- Stuart On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > >> > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > case, make it a double". > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > >> Hey All > >> You PMO > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > >> attitudes. > >> > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > >> > >> Tony Septav > >> Nanaimo, BC > >> Canada > >> > >> > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:19:24 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:19:24 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403111941.s2BJfVHg030066@databaseadvisors.com> References: <201403111941.s2BJfVHg030066@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <531F6FCC.6020000@gmail.com> What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 3:41 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > Hey All > The Gotcha worked, the stream has ended. Sorry you may find me a PIA, but > Gosh we have to laugh. Sorry if I have caused, any inconveniences or bad > feelings. But hey guys and girls ACCESS is a dinosaur. Wish as I might it is > not coming back in any competitive form that we see today. But........... I > still love the goofy individuals on this list. Just do not phone me, I am > not your buddy. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: March-10-14 1:13 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey All > Now we can all have a good laugh and not take life so seriously. And really > is that not fun. Gotcha! > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: March-10-14 12:51 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: > > Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:24:15 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403111941.s2BJfVHg030066@databaseadvisors.com> References: <201403100613.s2A6DOvs025337@databaseadvisors.com> <201403111941.s2BJfVHg030066@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: I'll be the judge of who is and who is not my buddy thank you very much heheh. On Mar 11, 2014 3:42 PM, "Tony Septav" wrote: > Hey All > The Gotcha worked, the stream has ended. Sorry you may find me a PIA, but > Gosh we have to laugh. Sorry if I have caused, any inconveniences or bad > feelings. But hey guys and girls ACCESS is a dinosaur. Wish as I might it > is > not coming back in any competitive form that we see today. But........... I > still love the goofy individuals on this list. Just do not phone me, I am > not your buddy. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: March-10-14 1:13 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey All > Now we can all have a good laugh and not take life so seriously. And > really > is that not fun. Gotcha! > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan > Sent: March-10-14 12:51 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: > > Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) > > -- > Stuart > > On 10 Mar 2014 at 1:29, Bill Benson wrote: > > > Good thing that joke wasn't very LONG. > > On Mar 10, 2014 1:12 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > > > LOL, Tony's back with a vengeance. We love you too buddy. > > > > > > A programmer walks into a bar and orders > > > 1.00000000001000000...897175 > > >> root beers. The bartender says, "I'll have to charge you > > >> > > > extra; that's a root beer float". And the programmer says, "In that > > > case, make it a double". > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > > when you do not believe in it > > > > > > On 3/9/2014 9:57 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > > > > > >> Hey All > > >> You PMO > > >> I am a programmer and developer, not a TECH FAN. This is an ACCESS > > >> line not a forum for a bunch of techie boys, go somewhere else to > > >> discuss. Do not insult me. I truly take offence at your pompous > > >> attitudes. > > >> > > >> This is why this list has fallen apart. Like or leave it. > > >> > > >> Tony Septav > > >> Nanaimo, BC > > >> Canada > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > > protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: > > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7172 - Release Date: 03/09/14 > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 15:38:38 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531F6FCC.6020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403112038.s2BKcjfm030215@databaseadvisors.com> Hey John and Bill Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. Thanks guys for the laugh. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 3:41 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > Hey All > The Gotcha worked, the stream has ended. Sorry you may find me a PIA, but > Gosh we have to laugh. Sorry if I have caused, any inconveniences or bad > feelings. But hey guys and girls ACCESS is a dinosaur. Wish as I might it is > not coming back in any competitive form that we see today. But........... I > still love the goofy individuals on this list. Just do not phone me, I am > not your buddy. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: March-10-14 1:13 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey All > Now we can all have a good laugh and not take life so seriously. And really > is that not fun. Gotcha! > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: March-10-14 12:51 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Just for Tony, here's an even shorter programmer's joke: > > Let he who is without sin use sqrt(1-cos^2) > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:53:00 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:53:00 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403112038.s2BKcjfm030215@databaseadvisors.com> References: <531F6FCC.6020000@gmail.com> <201403112038.s2BKcjfm030215@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> John, Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo He's listed. Street address & telephone number. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey John and Bill Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. Thanks guys for the laugh. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 15:54:39 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:54:39 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> References: <531F6FCC.6020000@gmail.com> <201403112038.s2BKcjfm030215@databaseadvisors.com> <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531F780F.3030404@gmail.com> Well let's all give him a call eh? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 4:53 PM, David A Gibson wrote: > John, > > Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo > > He's listed. Street address & telephone number. > > David Gibson > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey John and Bill > Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. > Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. > Thanks guys for the laugh. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > What did you say your number is??? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 16:01:42 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:01:42 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403112101.s2BL1kwq030309@databaseadvisors.com> Hey David Cut that out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A Gibson Sent: March-11-14 3:53 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... John, Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo He's listed. Street address & telephone number. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey John and Bill Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. Thanks guys for the laugh. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 16:02:45 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:02:45 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531F780F.3030404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403112102.s2BL2nTx030354@databaseadvisors.com> Hey John That is my uncle's phone number. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:55 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Well let's all give him a call eh? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 4:53 PM, David A Gibson wrote: > John, > > Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo > > He's listed. Street address & telephone number. > > David Gibson > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey John and Bill > Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. > Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. > Thanks guys for the laugh. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > What did you say your number is??? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 16:06:08 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:06:08 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] OT - Humor Message-ID: <015c01cf3d6d$b9a0b380$2ce21a80$@gmail.com> A man received the following text from his neighbor: I am so sorry Bob. I've been riddled with guilt and I have to confess. I have been tapping your wife, day and night when you're not around. In fact, more than you. I'm not getting any at home, but that's no excuse. I can no longer live with the guilt and I hope you will accept my sincerest apology with my promise that it won't happen again. The man, anguished and betrayed, went into his bedroom, grabbed his gun, and without a word, shot his wife and killed her. A few moments later, a second text came in: Damn autocorrect. I meant "wifi", not "wife". I about to wrap up my day so I thought I'd share a chuckle. David Gibson From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 16:06:21 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403112102.s2BL2nTx030354@databaseadvisors.com> References: <201403112102.s2BL2nTx030354@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <531F7ACD.3010901@gmail.com> Oh well, I guess he gets it then. We'll just let him know what a PITA his nephew is. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 5:02 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > Hey John > That is my uncle's phone number. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:55 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Well let's all give him a call eh? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 16:10:42 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:10:42 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] OT - Humor In-Reply-To: <015c01cf3d6d$b9a0b380$2ce21a80$@gmail.com> References: <015c01cf3d6d$b9a0b380$2ce21a80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <531F7BD2.2070903@gmail.com> I'll bet the wifi was quaking with fear eh? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 5:06 PM, David A Gibson wrote: > A man received the following text from his neighbor: > > I am so sorry Bob. I've been riddled with guilt and I have to confess. I > have been tapping your wife, day and night when you're not around. In fact, > more than you. I'm not getting any at home, but that's no excuse. I can no > longer live with the guilt and I hope you will accept my sincerest apology > with my promise that it won't happen again. > > The man, anguished and betrayed, went into his bedroom, grabbed his gun, and > without a word, shot his wife and killed her. > > A few moments later, a second text came in: > > Damn autocorrect. I meant "wifi", not "wife". > > > I about to wrap up my day so I thought I'd share a chuckle. > > David Gibson > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 16:24:56 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 17:24:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> References: <531F6FCC.6020000@gmail.com> <201403112038.s2BKcjfm030215@databaseadvisors.com> <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, there are limits... settle down children. On Mar 11, 2014 4:53 PM, "David A Gibson" wrote: > John, > > Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo > > He's listed. Street address & telephone number. > > David Gibson > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey John and Bill > Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. > Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. > Thanks guys for the laugh. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > What did you say your number is??? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 16:40:43 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 16:40:43 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <531F7ACD.3010901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201403112140.s2BLekPI030474@databaseadvisors.com> Hey All Love the list and all the goofy individuals. Really we have quite a group that has been around for so long most of us are ancient but yet we still can rant and rave. Soon most of us will be stored in some archive museum for the youngsters to observe. Thanks to all, back to my corner. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 4:06 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Oh well, I guess he gets it then. We'll just let him know what a PITA his nephew is. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 5:02 PM, Tony Septav wrote: > Hey John > That is my uncle's phone number. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:55 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Well let's all give him a call eh? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 From kost36 at otenet.gr Tue Mar 11 17:38:28 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:38:28 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] MYSQL and msaccess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: fixed.... added a new line in my.ini lower_case_table_names=2 and a much pretty synchronization program like: Data Sync For MYSQL thank's for your time /kostas -----?????? ??????----- From: Kostas Konstantinidis Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 9:47 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] MYSQL and msaccess Hi guys, I have some problems with the mysql connection and how to make a synchronization between two databases. So I took the liberty to write to you in case you have any good idea. I have already migrate my access, building an mysql database on an external server (tables, views, queries etc etc...) It works fine online but while I am trying to add or change data with a connected ms access via ODBC, it presents a very very very long delay (more than 10-12 minutes for every search)... For that reason I thought I would do the following: a new job, building a local mysql database in which access via ODBC real responses quickly and Then after working and finishing local my daily records updates to make a synchronization between server and local files... It sounds as a good solution but that?s the point all the problems begin Names of all remote tables begin with uppercase such as MT_films, ST_peoplefilm or T_actors etc and as it seems MySQL Workbench 5.2 CE (which I use for that) after synchronization converts everything with lowercase (mt_films, st_peoplefilm, t_actors etc) something means that the sql code on views and queries doesn?t work... any good idea? Do you know any other mysql synchronization utility do that? best regards /kostas -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Tue Mar 11 17:51:45 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 15:51:45 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <201403112101.s2BL1kwq030309@databaseadvisors.com> References: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> <201403112101.s2BL1kwq030309@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: Calling in delivery of 12 pizzas for tonight. You need anything else Tony? Couple cases of Molson? R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:02 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey David Cut that out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A Gibson Sent: March-11-14 3:53 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... John, Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo He's listed. Street address & telephone number. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey John and Bill Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. Thanks guys for the laugh. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 19:13:52 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 20:13:52 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: References: <015a01cf3d6b$e4263d20$ac72b760$@gmail.com> <201403112101.s2BL1kwq030309@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <531FA6C0.3080009@gmail.com> What a great idea. A couple of buckets of chicken maybe. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/11/2014 6:51 PM, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Calling in delivery of 12 pizzas for tonight. You need anything else Tony? > Couple cases of Molson? > > R > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:02 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey David > Cut that out! > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A Gibson > Sent: March-11-14 3:53 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > John, > > Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo > > He's listed. Street address & telephone number. > > David Gibson > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > Hey John and Bill > Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. > Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. > Thanks guys for the laugh. > > Tony Septav > Nanaimo, BC > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... > > What did you say your number is??? > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From TSeptav at Uniserve.com Tue Mar 11 19:40:52 2014 From: TSeptav at Uniserve.com (Tony Septav) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:40:52 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201403120040.s2C0euQr030943@databaseadvisors.com> Hey Rocky With smart asses like yourselve, no wonder I am going back to hiding in my corner. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: March-11-14 5:52 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Calling in delivery of 12 pizzas for tonight. You need anything else Tony? Couple cases of Molson? R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:02 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey David Cut that out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A Gibson Sent: March-11-14 3:53 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... John, Just Google Tony Septav Nanaimo He's listed. Street address & telephone number. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Tony Septav Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 3:39 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... Hey John and Bill Thanks guys. Humour and how we can all laugh at ourselves is so important. Guess I will go back to hiding in the corners. Thanks guys for the laugh. Tony Septav Nanaimo, BC Canada -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: March-11-14 3:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... What did you say your number is??? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7179 - Release Date: 03/11/14 -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3722/7181 - Release Date: 03/11/14 From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 08:58:50 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:58:50 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Message-ID: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> http://promotions.newegg.com/neemail/guerrilla/LP/14-MAR/index-lp_mktqd-12.html?nm_mc=EMC-GD031214&cm_mmc=EMC-GD031214-_-index-_-Header-_-SeeAll&et_cid=5980&et_rid=8919460 http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crucial-m500-1tb-ssd,3551-14.html http://techreport.com/review/25763/clash-of-the-terabyte-titans-crucial-m500-960gb-vs-samsung-840-evo-1tb/11 http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/feature-crucial-m500-vs-samsung-ssd-840-evo-battle-mainstream-ssds/conclusion-162 I purchased the Samsung 500 gb 840EVO for my laptop as well as my son's build and I love it. However the price on this Newegg special sure makes it hard to pass up. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 09:43:38 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 10:43:38 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Wed Mar 12 09:54:54 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 07:54:54 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 09:58:18 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 10:58:18 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> Message-ID: <034801cf3e03$8195b5d0$84c12170$@gmail.com> Thanks Rocky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WILL DO, BEFORE I PUT ANY MORE TIME INTO THIS ORACLE THANG! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 10:21:14 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 11:21:14 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> One of the magazines did a reliability test where they continuously wrote to a broad array of SSDs testing for failures. At the time the article was written the SSDs had all stood up to 600 TB of writes with no failures. Some of them (The Samsung IIRC) started having to mark bad blocks and use spare blocks however we are talking 600 TB here. http://techreport.com/review/24841/introducing-the-ssd-endurance-experiment/5 http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4178/10/hardwareinfo-tests-lifespan-of-samsung-ssd-840-250gb-tlc-ssd-updated-with-final-conclusion-final-update-20-6-2013 Additionally I have a somewhat unique situation. My databases are "read mostly". The tables which hold the marketing info fields are never updated. Once I get them written to disk I will read from them TONS, but never again write to them. The address records do get read monthly (exported to CSV for processing) but less than 2% of the people move on a monthly basis and I perform updates of only those 2%. So my database SSDs really don't get written all that much, probably less than your desktop drive would. One critical thing to understand is that the controller inside each SSD performs wear leveling. So if you have "static"data, i.e. data that is not written to often or at all, the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written very often. So basically, before it starts to fail, EVERY cell will be worn down, NOT just a certain area "used a lot". From the perspective of Windows, the location on disk is entirely masked, it has no idea in what "sector" or low level nand location any data is located. Having read several of these "let's test till they fail" articles, I am pretty much convinced (as are the testers) that these drives have a VERY long lifetime. Of course this depends heavily on the application obviously, but in real life very few applications write continuously to a drive. And finally, up to this point I have used a RAID (on the server) which also stripes the data, so that the writes I do perform are spread over several physical disks. And finally, each of my database are backed up to rotating media just prior to performing the monthly update, so if the entire raid array took a dump, I could simply pull the data from last month. With very few exceptions, the only change from last month is the address update process which I can just restore last month and rerun the address updates to be current again. I have been very happy with the SSDs; to this point I have never had a failure. I do have a pair of 120gb (OLD) SSDs in Raid0 which I use for temp dbs, which I am about to replace. Mostly I am replacing them simply because a pair of 500G drives are newer / faster / even more reliable and of course much larger storage size. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/12/2014 10:43 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > John, > > I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential > in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more > reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to > keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more > regularly? > > I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot > add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and > installed from MSDN. > > DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. > > Talk about 3rd party hell. > > BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 > drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started > clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another > and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad > taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until > I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from > either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Wed Mar 12 13:23:58 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:23:58 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] VB.net data bound form problem Message-ID: To all, Sorry to the Access group for the OT but I do not seem to be getting any response from the visual basic list. I am what I call a developer dinosaur I know VBA and VB6, keep trying to learn VB.net and C#, but always get sidetracked, however after going on a three day introduction course for ASP.net MVC development using VB.net has got me interested again. I have SQL Server 2012 Express and Visual Studio 2012 Express installed, I created a new blank database and as I am just messing about imported the Customers table from the Northwind sample, I then opened a new Visual Basic project, kept the form as Form1 and added a datasource and dataset called TestDataSet, I then dragged the CustomerID field onto the form and it appeared along with a binding navigator at the top of the form, without me doing anything the code behind the form looks like this Public Class Form1 Private Sub CustomersBindingNavigatorSaveItem_Click(sender As Object, e As EventArgs) Handles CustomersBindingNavigatorSaveItem.Click Me.Validate() Me.CustomersBindingSource.EndEdit() Me.TableAdapterManager.UpdateAll(Me.TestDataSet) End Sub Private Sub Form1_Load(sender As Object, e As EventArgs) Handles MyBase.Load 'TODO: This line of code loads data into the 'TestDataSet.Customers' table. You can move, or remove it, as needed. Me.CustomersTableAdapter.Fill(Me.TestDataSet) End Sub End Class So I started up the application and could flick through all the ID's using the navigation buttons, however if I try to change an ID then click the save icon on the binding navigator I get the following error: An unhandled exception of type 'System.InvalidOperationException' occurred in Northwind.exe Additional information: Update requires a valid UpdateCommand when passed DataRow collection with modified rows. and the line of code Me.TableAdapterManager.UpdateAll(Me.TestDataSet) is highlighted, I assumed that as the binding navigator was working the save would too. Can anyone tell me what is wrong and/or point me in the right direction to do this a better way. Many thanks in advance for any help on this. Kind Regards, Paul -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Wed Mar 12 14:02:43 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 15:02:43 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Since this is the Access D list, maybe it's time for an Access topic? Message-ID: Since this is the Access D list, maybe it's time for an Access topic? These were just posted, which are video's from the last SharePoint conference. Haven't watched them all yet, so don't know what's good or not, but if you don't think Access Desktop apps are dead, just watch the first three minutes of the first link. Jim. SPC204: Anyone can build a SharePoint App with Microsoft Access http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/SharePoint-Conference/2014/SPC204 SPC338: The 'how to' guide for selling and managing SharePoint Apps built using Access http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/SharePoint-Conference/2014/SPC338 SPC335: Rich extensions to SharePoint Apps using Microsoft Access http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/SharePoint-Conference/2014/SPC335 SPC 348: Update on InfoPath and SharePoint Forms http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/SharePoint-Conference/2014/SPC348 From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 15:44:30 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:44:30 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery Message-ID: <090f01cf3e33$deb39900$9c1acb00$@gmail.com> I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be working. In particular, if the user has selected B out of A B C Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is still selected. My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the listbox. I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. Pulling hair out. From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 16:15:51 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A. GIbson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:15:51 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery Message-ID: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> I have an example at work so it's air code . Me! Listbox2=null Me!Listbox2=requery I can send you a solid example tomorrow. David GIbson Sent from up the creek... -------- Original message -------- From: Bill Benson Date: 03/12/2014 3:44 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be working. In particular, if the user has selected B out of A B C Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is still selected. My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the listbox. I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. Pulling hair out. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 16:26:07 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 07:26:07 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <090f01cf3e33$deb39900$9c1acb00$@gmail.com> References: <090f01cf3e33$deb39900$9c1acb00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5320D0EF.8839.3BA60B20@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Clearing the rowsource does not clear the value of the bound field behind the combobox, it only clears what can be displayed. Set the value of the lisbox to Null at the same time as you requery. On 12 Mar 2014 at 16:44, Bill Benson wrote: > I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. > > I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be > working. > > In particular, if the user has selected B out of > > A > B > C > > > Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, > but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is > still selected. > > My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order > of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the > listbox. > > I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. > > All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. > > Pulling hair out. > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From vbacreations at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 16:27:38 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:27:38 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> Message-ID: <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> Worked! Thanks David. Hanged if I get why! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A. GIbson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:16 PM To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery I have an example at work so it's air code . Me! Listbox2=null Me!Listbox2=requery I can send you a solid example tomorrow. David GIbson Sent from up the creek... -------- Original message -------- From: Bill Benson Date: 03/12/2014 3:44 PM (GMT-06:00) To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be working. In particular, if the user has selected B out of A B C Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is still selected. My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the listbox. I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. Pulling hair out. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 16:28:37 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 17:28:37 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <5320D0EF.8839.3BA60B20@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <090f01cf3e33$deb39900$9c1acb00$@gmail.com> <5320D0EF.8839.3BA60B20@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <09fe01cf3e3a$08d696a0$1a83c3e0$@gmail.com> Thanks Stuart. And NOW I know... the rest of the story. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:26 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery Clearing the rowsource does not clear the value of the bound field behind the combobox, it only clears what can be displayed. Set the value of the lisbox to Null at the same time as you requery. On 12 Mar 2014 at 16:44, Bill Benson wrote: > I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. > > I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be > working. > > In particular, if the user has selected B out of > > A > B > C > > > Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, > but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is > still selected. > > My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order > of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the > listbox. > > I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. > > All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. > > Pulling hair out. > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Wed Mar 12 16:46:28 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:46:28 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> Message-ID: If the listbox is not multi-select then the Me!ListBox = Null should work, if it's a multi-select then you may find you have to loop through the selections and make them false, actually probably better (not sure so open to ideas) to always use the loop, you don;t have to remove the rowsource then, to do this use something like below: Dim intClearSelected As Integer For intClearSelected = 0 To Me!ListBox.ListCount-1 If Me!ListBox.Selected(intClearSelected)=True then Me!ListBox.Selected(intClearSelected)=false Endif Next intClearSelected Paul On 12 March 2014 21:15, David A. GIbson wrote: > I have an example at work so it's air code > . > Me! Listbox2=null > Me!Listbox2=requery > > I can send you a solid example tomorrow. > > David GIbson > > > Sent from up the creek... > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Bill Benson > Date: 03/12/2014 3:44 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex > persisting > after requery > > I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. > > I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be > working. > > In particular, if the user has selected B out of > > A > B > C > > > Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, > but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is > still selected. > > My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order > of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the > listbox. > > I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. > > All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. > > Pulling hair out. > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 17:22:29 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:22:29 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> Message-ID: <0ad701cf3e41$8f059da0$ad10d8e0$@gmail.com> Thanks for the additional commentary which I will surely (? -- well, I hope so anyway) keep in mind for future. Corollary mystery... Is it conceivable that as listbox was not really clearing out, that might by why the .Selected property remained zero even for the item in the highlighted position? This had me baffled for the longest time, then I couldn't reproduce the situation after changing from a Query/Table type rowsource to Value List. Still that doesn't really seem like an explanation for the Selected property being zero for everything, but maybe so... -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:46 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery If the listbox is not multi-select then the Me!ListBox = Null should work, if it's a multi-select then you may find you have to loop through the selections and make them false, actually probably better (not sure so open to ideas) to always use the loop, you don;t have to remove the rowsource then, to do this use something like below: Dim intClearSelected As Integer For intClearSelected = 0 To Me!ListBox.ListCount-1 If Me!ListBox.Selected(intClearSelected)=True then Me!ListBox.Selected(intClearSelected)=false Endif Next intClearSelected Paul On 12 March 2014 21:15, David A. GIbson wrote: > I have an example at work so it's air code > . > Me! Listbox2=null > Me!Listbox2=requery > > I can send you a solid example tomorrow. > > David GIbson > > > Sent from up the creek... > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Bill Benson > Date: 03/12/2014 3:44 PM (GMT-06:00) > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex > persisting > after requery > > I have written listbox that has Table/Query RowsourceType property. > > I am trying to clear the selection in it by requery. It does not seem to be > working. > > In particular, if the user has selected B out of > > A > B > C > > > Then when I change Rowsource = "" and requery, the listbox contents vanish, > but when I make the rowsource equal to what it was, the selected item is > still selected. > > My concern about this is, what happens if B no longer exists, or the order > of items changes, since I do not have a primary key type data field in the > listbox. > > I could switch to AddItem but that might be slower. > > All I want to do is have nothing selected after a requery. > > Pulling hair out. > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:11:06 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:11:06 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox ListIndex versus Selected Message-ID: <0dcb01cf3e59$1d7852f0$5868f8d0$@gmail.com> Hi again, I periodically get a message saying "You've used the ListIndex property incorrectly", if I try to set the ListIndex property directly and the control does not have the focus. Now, why that should be, whereas this works: With Lst .Selected( .ListIndex) = True End With ?? From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:37:01 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:37:01 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> Message-ID: <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jbodin at sbor.com Wed Mar 12 20:47:07 2014 From: jbodin at sbor.com (John Bodin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 01:47:07 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92b69fe556b442448ef7748f7c9988b2@BLUPR04MB023.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Bill, see this link for description/capabilities and near the bottom you can get the link for "Free for Personal Use." https://www.vmware.com/products/player/ John -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:37 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:47:39 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:47:39 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e4b01cf3e5e$38633f30$a929bd90$@gmail.com> I hunted around on the web and I linked from PC Review back to VMWARE ... strange, it was not on the products page. Hooray for persistence. Now, to just learn to keep quiet during the process... Same issue with the refrigerator ... I can't find anything until I yell "Honey, where's the...." - then it's right in front of me. My wife doesn't even answer anymore, she just waits to hear "Nevermind, I found it!" Thanks, Bill -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:37 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From garykjos at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:55:41 2014 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 20:55:41 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 < https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 > On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. > > Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. > > No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. > > Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD > > Bill: > > I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using > VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware > Player > and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind > what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give > VMware > Player a whirl. Free. > > Rocky > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD > > John, > > I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year > differential > in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more > reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to > keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more > regularly? > > I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot > add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and > installed from MSDN. > > DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. > > Talk about 3rd party hell. > > BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 > drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started > clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one > another > and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad > taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. > Until > I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from > either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:56:36 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:56:36 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <92b69fe556b442448ef7748f7c9988b2@BLUPR04MB023.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> <92b69fe556b442448ef7748f7c9988b2@BLUPR04MB023.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <0e6501cf3e5f$78e5b910$6ab12b30$@gmail.com> I tried running the one I found and got "Error 1325. Documents is not a valid short file name." so I am really glad you posted that. Thank you John! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John Bodin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:47 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill, see this link for description/capabilities and near the bottom you can get the link for "Free for Personal Use." https://www.vmware.com/products/player/ John -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:37 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD Bill: I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware Player and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give VMware Player a whirl. Free. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD John, I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more regularly? I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and installed from MSDN. DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. Talk about 3rd party hell. BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From garykjos at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 20:58:00 2014 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 20:58:00 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry I guess based on John's post my llinks to 4 version was out of date. Here is the v6 linkds https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/6_0 < https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/6_0 > On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Gary Kjos wrote: > > https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 > > < > https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 > > > > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. >> >> Typical, 1 penny shy of a C-note. >> >> No can do, blew my budget for software until after tax time. >> >> Waaaaaaaaa. (Visio @#$#@$) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin >> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55 AM >> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD >> >> Bill: >> >> I needed VMs as test beds for Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 and tried using >> VirtualBox but it had a LOT of problems with it. I downloaded Vmware >> Player >> and had all three up in no time. Runs like a spotted dog and doesn't mind >> what hardware I'm using. I've got a Dell XPS8300. Recommend you give >> VMware >> Player a whirl. Free. >> >> Rocky >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson >> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:44 AM >> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD >> >> John, >> >> I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year >> differential >> in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / >> more >> reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to >> keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more >> regularly? >> >> I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot >> add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and >> installed from MSDN. >> >> DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. >> >> Talk about 3rd party hell. >> >> BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 >> drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started >> clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one >> another >> and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek >> Squad >> taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. >> Until >> I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from >> either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. >> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > > -- > Gary Kjos > garykjos at gmail.com > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 22:09:42 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 23:09:42 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on VMWare In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <04A0C938FF92466BA776A4B46D74F134@HAL9007> <0e3401cf3e5c$bc701890$355049b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53212176.9000108@gmail.com> Wouldn't this be better named something like... John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/12/2014 9:58 PM, Gary Kjos wrote: > Sorry I guess based on John's post my llinks to 4 version was out of date. > Here is the v6 linkds > > https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/6_0 > < > https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/6_0 > > On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 8:55 PM, Gary Kjos wrote: > >> https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 >> >> < >> https://my.vmware.com/web/vmware/free#desktop_end_user_computing/vmware_player/4_0 >> >> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> >>> I do not see VMPlayer, just VM Player Plus... not free. $99.99. >>> >>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 06:11:54 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 06:11:54 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> I have a DB that uses cascading listboxes to drill down State > County > City > High School I use the AfterUpdate event to clear the listboxes Private Sub List30_AfterUpdate() Me!List32 = Null Me!List32.Requery Me!List34 = Null Me!List34.Requery End Sub Glad I was able to help lessen your pain. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:28 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery Worked! Thanks David. Hanged if I get why! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A. GIbson Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:16 PM To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery I have an example at work so it's air code . Me! Listbox2=null Me!Listbox2=requery I can send you a solid example tomorrow. David GIbson Sent from up the creek... From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 07:50:05 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:50:05 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> I tend to use a wrapper class for this. If an object is "dependent" on another object then whenever the parent object changes, the child object needs to be requeried. Yes, this can be done completely manually, but can also be done completely automatically. The concept is to have a class which wraps (for example) the combo box. That class then sinks the afterupdate event (and others as required). It also has a collection which holds a pointer to other objects which need to be requeried if this object needs to be requeried. And finally, it has a Requery method which, when called iterates the collection requerying all of the objects in the collection. Notice that the collection stores wrapper classes, NOT access controls. The wrapper classes hold the control. For example: State City High School Class Persons Any time the state changes, the city is requeried (and thus changes). Any time the City changes it requeries the the High School object (and thus changes). And so forth down the chain. Notice that the AfterUpdate could occur at any level down the chain, and the child combos of THAT OBJECT would all need to be requeried in the correct order - down the chain. So you have a query for each combo which has a where clause using the parent combo to filter its records. A combo class instance is created wrapping each combo. The State is the top most parent. Its collection gets a pointer to the city combo class. The city combo class gets a pointer to the High School combo class, which gets a pointer to the class combo class etc. Now, when the AfterUpdate event fires for any of the combos, it is sunk in the appropriate wrapper class, which grabs the object(s) in its collection and calls the requery method. The requery method of the wrapper class requeries its combo and then grabs the objects in its collection doing the same thing. The requeries just automatically ripple down the chain, requerying every child combo. Notice too that other objects could be dependent on the parent. You could have a subform which pulls records (or views) based on a combo, or even vice versa, combos which change depending on the form. Using a collection of dependent objects allows you to have multiple dependent objects, and they all get requeried when the class requery method is called. The child chain can be arbitrarily complex and since the process is fully automatic it will just happen, every time, regardless of where in the chain the AfterUpdate (requery trigger event) happens. Every child object will get requeried. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 7:11 AM, David A Gibson wrote: > I have a DB that uses cascading listboxes to drill down State > County > > City > High School > > I use the AfterUpdate event to clear the listboxes > > Private Sub List30_AfterUpdate() > > Me!List32 = Null > Me!List32.Requery > > Me!List34 = Null > Me!List34.Requery > > End Sub > > Glad I was able to help lessen your pain. > > David Gibson > > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:03:54 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:03:54 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> Message-ID: John why is it any less painful writing code that instantiates class objects at runtime (Form_Load?) And adds them to a collection, with code in the class events to look for every child of that object to do a re query.... than it is to simply write a line of code within each object's re query event to re query each child object (mentioned specifically by name). Isn't it taking the same amount of time to type the different code (your way) versus the standard way... ? Now another question to show how ignorant I can be, don't collection objects and classes have the potential to go out of scope in ACCESS VBA? I know they do in Excel, maybe not Access. One thing I will give you props for is the control events sometimes get detached from the objects and your method might avoid that possibility. Bill On Mar 13, 2014 8:52 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > I tend to use a wrapper class for this. If an object is "dependent" on > another object then whenever the parent object changes, the child object > needs to be requeried. Yes, this can be done completely manually, but can > also be done completely automatically. > > The concept is to have a class which wraps (for example) the combo box. > That class then sinks the afterupdate event (and others as required). It > also has a collection which holds a pointer to other objects which need to > be requeried if this object needs to be requeried. And finally, it has a > Requery method which, when called iterates the collection requerying all of > the objects in the collection. Notice that the collection stores wrapper > classes, NOT access controls. The wrapper classes hold the control. > > For example: > > State > City > High School > Class > Persons > > Any time the state changes, the city is requeried (and thus changes). Any > time the City changes it requeries the the High School object (and thus > changes). And so forth down the chain. Notice that the AfterUpdate could > occur at any level down the chain, and the child combos of THAT OBJECT > would all need to be requeried in the correct order - down the chain. > > So you have a query for each combo which has a where clause using the > parent combo to filter its records. A combo class instance is created > wrapping each combo. The State is the top most parent. Its collection gets > a pointer to the city combo class. The city combo class gets a pointer to > the High School combo class, which gets a pointer to the class combo class > etc. > > Now, when the AfterUpdate event fires for any of the combos, it is sunk in > the appropriate wrapper class, which grabs the object(s) in its collection > and calls the requery method. The requery method of the wrapper class > requeries its combo and then grabs the objects in its collection doing the > same thing. The requeries just automatically ripple down the chain, > requerying every child combo. > > Notice too that other objects could be dependent on the parent. You could > have a subform which pulls records (or views) based on a combo, or even > vice versa, combos which change depending on the form. Using a collection > of dependent objects allows you to have multiple dependent objects, and > they all get requeried when the class requery method is called. The child > chain can be arbitrarily complex and since the process is fully automatic > it will just happen, every time, regardless of where in the chain the > AfterUpdate (requery trigger event) happens. Every child object will get > requeried. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/13/2014 7:11 AM, David A Gibson wrote: > >> I have a DB that uses cascading listboxes to drill down State > County > >> City > High School >> >> I use the AfterUpdate event to clear the listboxes >> >> Private Sub List30_AfterUpdate() >> >> Me!List32 = Null >> Me!List32.Requery >> >> Me!List34 = Null >> Me!List34.Requery >> >> End Sub >> >> Glad I was able to help lessen your pain. >> >> David Gibson >> >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:46:02 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:46:02 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> Bill, It isn't any less painful, you gotta write the code either way. The difference is that once you write it once in a class, then you can simply instantiate the class a second / 100th time instead of writing that code 100 times. Furthermore, if you happen to have a bug, you fix it in one place instead of 99 places (and have that lingering bug you never found). Furthermore, doing it the manual way means YOU have to keep track of what object is dependent on what other object and write the code that does that requery (manually). With a class, you instantiate 5 instances (in my example) of the combo wrapper class, then hand each instance a pointer to its child. The wrong (but simple) way: private clsCboState as clsCbo private clsCboCity as clsCbo private clsCboHS as clsCbo private clsCboClass as clsCbo private clsCboPeople as clsCbo form_Open begin 'Set them up set clsCboState = new clsCbo 'Instantiate the wrapper class clsCboState.mInit cboState 'Pass in a pointer to the correct combo set clsCboCity = new clsCbo clsCboCity .mInit cboCity 'Pass in a pointer to the correct combo set clsCboHS = new clsCbo clsCboHS .mInit cboHS 'Pass in a pointer to the correct combo set clsCboClass = new clsCbo clsCboClass .mInit cboClass 'Pass in a pointer to the correct combo set clsCboPeople = new clsCbo clsCboPeople .mInit cboPeople 'Pass in a pointer to the correct combo 'Tell each wrapper its dependent object(s) clsCboState.mDependentObj clsCboCity clsCboCity .mDependentObj clsCboHS clsCboHS .mDependentObj clsCboClass clsCboClass .mDependentObj clsCboPeople clsCboState.mRequery 'Triggers a requery down the entire chain end Once you have the class set up and functioning, that is ALL that is required to make it all work. Now tell me that isn't cleaner than a bajillion event hooks in the form class which YOU have to manage. You can simply go to the form_Open and READ what classes are instantiated, what controls are passed to them and what dependent objects are passed to them. Remember that YOU have to write code in each event hook to requery the correct object. And not only in this form but every other form in your entire application. And in every form in every application. I don't have to do that, I just instantiate the combo class instances. And to make matters worse, YOU have to figure out "When the city combo fires, I have to requery.... the highschool and then I have to requery the class combo and then I have to requery the people. You end up writing methods for each level called by the method above it and also called by the event of the parent combo. Believe me I know because I used to do things this way. It turns into a fugly mess cluttering up the form class. And finally, a wrapper class can hold yet more code which you want your combos to perform. It can sink a double click event and open a form which allows editing the list of items in that combo. It can even move the pointer to the specific record currently selected in the combo. So if the current item selected is Aple, a double click opens the correct form, moves to the record Aple and allows the user to to edit this glaring mis-spelling to Apple. I have this code written and available in my framework. Now tell me how much work it would be to ADD that code to your combos in the form's class. Which brings up the next point, once you have the combo class created with some simple behavior (dependent object requerying) You can add a new behavior and instantly, every combo can use that behavior. Wrapper classes are nothing more than objects which hold code and data about the wrapped object. It is called OOP (Object Oriented Programming) and is a very powerful paradigm. If you are interested in this kind of stuff, visit my blog. http://jwcolby.blogspot.com/2013/02/microsoft-access-little-secret-classes.html?view=sidebar John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 9:03 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > John why is it any less painful writing code that instantiates class > objects at runtime (Form_Load?) And adds them to a collection, with code > in the class events to look for every child of that object to do a re > query.... than it is to simply write a line of code within each object's re > query event to re query each child object (mentioned specifically by name). > Isn't it taking the same amount of time to type the different code (your > way) versus the standard way... ? > > Now another question to show how ignorant I can be, don't collection > objects and classes have the potential to go out of scope in ACCESS VBA? I > know they do in Excel, maybe not Access. > > One thing I will give you props for is the control events sometimes get > detached from the objects and your method might avoid that possibility. > > Bill > On Mar 13, 2014 8:52 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >> I tend to use a wrapper class for this. If an object is "dependent" on >> another object then whenever the parent object changes, the child object >> needs to be requeried. Yes, this can be done completely manually, but can >> also be done completely automatically. >> >> The concept is to have a class which wraps (for example) the combo box. >> That class then sinks the afterupdate event (and others as required). It >> also has a collection which holds a pointer to other objects which need to >> be requeried if this object needs to be requeried. And finally, it has a >> Requery method which, when called iterates the collection requerying all of >> the objects in the collection. Notice that the collection stores wrapper >> classes, NOT access controls. The wrapper classes hold the control. >> >> For example: >> >> State >> City >> High School >> Class >> Persons >> >> Any time the state changes, the city is requeried (and thus changes). Any >> time the City changes it requeries the the High School object (and thus >> changes). And so forth down the chain. Notice that the AfterUpdate could >> occur at any level down the chain, and the child combos of THAT OBJECT >> would all need to be requeried in the correct order - down the chain. >> >> So you have a query for each combo which has a where clause using the >> parent combo to filter its records. A combo class instance is created >> wrapping each combo. The State is the top most parent. Its collection gets >> a pointer to the city combo class. The city combo class gets a pointer to >> the High School combo class, which gets a pointer to the class combo class >> etc. >> >> Now, when the AfterUpdate event fires for any of the combos, it is sunk in >> the appropriate wrapper class, which grabs the object(s) in its collection >> and calls the requery method. The requery method of the wrapper class >> requeries its combo and then grabs the objects in its collection doing the >> same thing. The requeries just automatically ripple down the chain, >> requerying every child combo. >> >> Notice too that other objects could be dependent on the parent. You could >> have a subform which pulls records (or views) based on a combo, or even >> vice versa, combos which change depending on the form. Using a collection >> of dependent objects allows you to have multiple dependent objects, and >> they all get requeried when the class requery method is called. The child >> chain can be arbitrarily complex and since the process is fully automatic >> it will just happen, every time, regardless of where in the chain the >> AfterUpdate (requery trigger event) happens. Every child object will get >> requeried. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/13/2014 7:11 AM, David A Gibson wrote: >> >>> I have a DB that uses cascading listboxes to drill down State > County > >>> City > High School >>> >>> I use the AfterUpdate event to clear the listboxes >>> >>> Private Sub List30_AfterUpdate() >>> >>> Me!List32 = Null >>> Me!List32.Requery >>> >>> Me!List34 = Null >>> Me!List34.Requery >>> >>> End Sub >>> >>> Glad I was able to help lessen your pain. >>> >>> David Gibson >>> >>> >>> >>> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 08:58:51 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:58:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> Message-ID: I guess IF you know which list box goes with each class but if you write code that takes care of that, you may as well let Access give you the event handler (of the child) and trigger it by writing childlist.requery in the parent company's re query event; the way you propose you still need at least one line of code (probably 2 or more) declaring the variable, setting it equal to the class, then adding to the publicly declared collection for persistence, plus you've got the wrapper code. I dunno, guess I will take your word this is better, more efficient, or more readable/fun. Having done both I take Access straightforward code in Access, although lots of people do like class midules. From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 09:00:01 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:00:01 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> Message-ID: That was the parent control' requery, not parent company. Darned finance / VBA cross breeding. On Mar 13, 2014 9:58 AM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > I guess IF you know which list box goes with each class but if you write > code that takes care of that, you may as well let Access give you the > event handler (of the child) and trigger it by writing childlist.requery in > the parent company's re query event; the way you propose you still need at > least one line of code (probably 2 or more) declaring the variable, setting > it equal to the class, then adding to the publicly declared collection for > persistence, plus you've got the wrapper code. > > I dunno, guess I will take your word this is better, more efficient, or > more readable/fun. Having done both I take Access straightforward code in > Access, although lots of people do like class midules. > From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Thu Mar 13 09:46:04 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 07:46:04 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check Message-ID: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Dear List: In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain people. One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it gets changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How can this be disabled? MTIA Rocky From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 09:59:35 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:59:35 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5321C7D7.4000809@gmail.com> LOL, you either like it or you don't. If you have in fact used classes and decided you don't like them then that is that. As an OOP kinda guy it has always annoyed me that I cannot inherit a built-in control and add my own functionality and properties to them. Wrappers kinda sorta give you that ability. I use it to the max. I started OOP with Turbo Pascal back in the late 80s. When I came over to Access I gained events and lost OOP. It was a shock trying to figure out how to do things that were so easy with Turbo Pascal. I did not discover classes until Shamil turned me on to them, and even then it took awhile to wrap my mind around sinking events in them and so forth. Once I did however my ability to do complex things in an OOP way was back. I still sink object events in forms... where it is a "one off" kind of thing that will never be repeated. If I end up doing it a second time that tells me that this is a candidate for a wrapper class. I pretty much stop what I am doing, build a class to do that thing, and start using the class. Once you do classes like that, creating a new class is trivial and using it becomes second nature. It extends the wrapped object, gives me new methods and properties. Nothing wrong with that. I would never write the exact same function twice. My programming education teaches me that is a no-no. The code you are discussing is "writing the exact same function twice". Except you have to modify that "exact same function" each and every time to make it work. So now you have something that should be calling a function and passing a parameter. Except that it has to ripple down the chain... So now you have to have a bunch of functions calling the function passing in different parameters... sub cboState_AfterUpdate() begin cboCity.Requery cboHS.Requery cboClass.Requery cboPeople.Requery end sub cboCity_AfterUpdate() begin cboHS.Requery cboClass.Requery cboPeople.Requery end sub cboHS_AfterUpdate() begin cboClass.Requery cboPeople.Requery end sub cboClass_AfterUpdate() begin cboPeople.Requery end NOW... add in a cboSportTeam which displays lists of people on each team for each year. That is two more combos, one for the team (cboSportTeam dependent on cboClass) and another cboTeamPeople dependent on cboSportTeam. The way I do it is add two more combo classes, one for each new combo. then: clsCboClass .mDependentObj clsCboTeam clsCboTeam .mDependentObj clsCboTeamPeople Again, I can simply read that cboTeam is dependent on cboClass and cboTeamPeople is dependent on cboTeam. Obviously clsCboClass has now been passed TWO class pointers, one for the people and one for the teams. When it is time for it to requery it simply requeries everything in its collection and voila, it is all figured out and handled. Again, I really do this. When I design any form with dependent objects, I sit in the form_Open event analyzing which objects are dependent on other objects and programming them there. If the chain changes, new objects are added, objects are deleted, objects are moved etc. I simply program it using methods and properties in form_Open. I am not searching down through my form code figuring out where I did that part, and what I have to modify. I used to do it that way, so I know what is involved. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 9:58 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > I guess IF you know which list box goes with each class but if you write > code that takes care of that, you may as well let Access give you the > event handler (of the child) and trigger it by writing childlist.requery in > the parent company's re query event; the way you propose you still need at > least one line of code (probably 2 or more) declaring the variable, setting > it equal to the class, then adding to the publicly declared collection for > persistence, plus you've got the wrapper code. > > I dunno, guess I will take your word this is better, more efficient, or > more readable/fun. Having done both I take Access straightforward code in > Access, although lots of people do like class midules. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Thu Mar 13 10:03:31 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:03:31 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check In-Reply-To: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> References: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Message-ID: I think it's under tools/options, spelling tab, click button for autocorrect options and uncheck 'replace text as you type' Paul On 13 March 2014 14:46, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Dear List: > > In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain > people. > One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it gets > changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How can this > be > disabled? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com Thu Mar 13 10:07:36 2014 From: Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com (Rusty Hammond) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:07:36 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] OT - Windows 8.1 Upgrade 1 Message-ID: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D01DB522B@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> Looks like Microsoft must have heard some of our complaints last week ;-) http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-next-windows-8-might-finally-appease-190328 692.html ********************************************************************** WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. ********************************************************************** From tinanfields at torchlake.com Thu Mar 13 10:16:20 2014 From: tinanfields at torchlake.com (Tina Norris Fields) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:16:20 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com>, <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com>, <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <5321CBC4.1000204@torchlake.com> Definitely one of my favs, too. :-) TNF Tina Norris Fields tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com 231-322-2787 On 3/10/2014 8:38 AM, Jim Dettman wrote: > One of my fav quotes: > > "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and > those who don't." > > Jim. > > From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 10:17:27 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:17:27 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check In-Reply-To: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> References: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Message-ID: <024601cf3ecf$5a7170d0$0f545270$@gmail.com> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/office/en-US/a940dd7c-0284-44a3-9563 -1ec3e8bea930/turn-off-autocorrect-in-ms-access-2007?forum=accessdev http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/turn-off-auto-correct-t1124821.html David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:46 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check Dear List: In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain people. One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it gets changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How can this be disabled? MTIA Rocky -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Thu Mar 13 10:20:50 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:20:50 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check In-Reply-To: References: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Message-ID: <717793137A7847EC9C11F3464A2E919A@HAL9007> Walla! That done it! Thank you. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:04 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check I think it's under tools/options, spelling tab, click button for autocorrect options and uncheck 'replace text as you type' Paul On 13 March 2014 14:46, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Dear List: > > In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain > people. > One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it > gets changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How > can this be disabled? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 10:31:51 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 11:31:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] OT - Windows 8.1 Upgrade 1 In-Reply-To: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D01DB522B@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> References: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D01DB522B@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> Message-ID: <5321CF67.6040709@gmail.com> LOL, yea right. It does make Windows 8.1 sound easier to use. Not that I'm gonna try it again anytime soon. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 11:07 AM, Rusty Hammond wrote: > http://news.yahoo.com/5-ways-next-windows-8-might-finally-appease-190328 > 692.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From df.waters at comcast.net Thu Mar 13 10:33:45 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:33:45 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check In-Reply-To: References: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Message-ID: <006501cf3ed1$9fa19ed0$dee4dc70$@comcast.net> Hi Paul, In Access 2007/2010 it's under File | Options | Proofing, then push the AutoCorrect button. Instead of making a global change (AutoCorrect is a good feature except for a case like SEH), perhaps a specific exception can be added. Try this: In the Replace field type SEH, and in the With field also type SEH, then push Add. I have not tried this so I'm just guessing/hoping. Good Luck! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:04 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check I think it's under tools/options, spelling tab, click button for autocorrect options and uncheck 'replace text as you type' Paul On 13 March 2014 14:46, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Dear List: > > In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain > people. > One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it > gets changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How > can this be disabled? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Thu Mar 13 10:34:23 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:34:23 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check References: <2078EB522FF24BD7BD299C606EEE5834@HAL9007> Message-ID: Actually the better solution is to turn off autocorrect for that control in the property sheet. Otherwise the target user's Access may have the option set. R -----Original Message----- From: Rocky Smolin [mailto:rockysmolin at bchacc.com] Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:21 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check Walla! That done it! Thank you. Rocky -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:04 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Disabling Spell Check I think it's under tools/options, spelling tab, click button for autocorrect options and uncheck 'replace text as you type' Paul On 13 March 2014 14:46, Rocky Smolin wrote: > Dear List: > > In a client's app they have a combo box with the initials of certain > people. > One of these people's initials are SEH. Every time they enter SEH, it > gets changed to SHE and then they get the 'not in list' message. How > can this be disabled? > > MTIA > > Rocky > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 13 11:36:22 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1058013571.1921528.1394728582928.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: Thanks for the info on the SSD lifespan...is one of the reason I have been hesitant. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:21:14 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD One of the magazines did a reliability test where they continuously wrote to a broad array of SSDs testing for failures. At the time the article was written the SSDs had all stood up to 600 TB of writes with no failures. Some of them (The Samsung IIRC) started having to mark bad blocks and use spare blocks however we are talking 600 TB here. http://techreport.com/review/24841/introducing-the-ssd-endurance-experiment/5 http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4178/10/hardwareinfo-tests-lifespan-of-samsung-ssd-840-250gb-tlc-ssd-updated-with-final-conclusion-final-update-20-6-2013 Additionally I have a somewhat unique situation. My databases are "read mostly". The tables which hold the marketing info fields are never updated. Once I get them written to disk I will read from them TONS, but never again write to them. The address records do get read monthly (exported to CSV for processing) but less than 2% of the people move on a monthly basis and I perform updates of only those 2%. So my database SSDs really don't get written all that much, probably less than your desktop drive would. One critical thing to understand is that the controller inside each SSD performs wear leveling. So if you have "static"data, i.e. data that is not written to often or at all, the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written very often. So basically, before it starts to fail, EVERY cell will be worn down, NOT just a certain area "used a lot". From the perspective of Windows, the location on disk is entirely masked, it has no idea in what "sector" or low level nand location any data is located. Having read several of these "let's test till they fail" articles, I am pretty much convinced (as are the testers) that these drives have a VERY long lifetime. Of course this depends heavily on the application obviously, but in real life very few applications write continuously to a drive. And finally, up to this point I have used a RAID (on the server) which also stripes the data, so that the writes I do perform are spread over several physical disks. And finally, each of my database are backed up to rotating media just prior to performing the monthly update, so if the entire raid array took a dump, I could simply pull the data from last month. With very few exceptions, the only change from last month is the address update process which I can just restore last month and rerun the address updates to be current again. I have been very happy with the SSDs; to this point I have never had a failure. I do have a pair of 120gb (OLD) SSDs in Raid0 which I use for temp dbs, which I am about to replace. Mostly I am replacing them simply because a pair of 500G drives are newer / faster / even more reliable and of course much larger storage size. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/12/2014 10:43 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > John, > > I read in the reviews of the Samsung, that the Pro has a 2 year differential > in the warranty versus the EVO, and that the technology is different / more > reliable. I am surprised that was not a factor for you since you seem to > keep your hardware a long time. Are you planning to upgrade SSDs more > regularly? > > I have recently begun experimenting with VirtualBox by Oracle ... I cannot > add a single one of my DELL drivers to the Win-7-64 OS I downloaded and > installed from MSDN. > > DELL won't support me. Oracle won't support me, and MS won't support me. > > Talk about 3rd party hell. > > BTW I saw another super cheap buy in the link you sent, the WD USB 3.0 > drive... I just can't remember if it was 2 Seagates that started > clicking/clucking and then became unreadable, within 2 months of one another > and about a year after I bought them (just out of warranty) with Geek Squad > taking them apart and could not get any information off them... or WD. Until > I can remember (*IF* I can remember) I will not buy another USB drive from > either of them lol. How's that for consumer lunacy. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 12:05:32 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:05:32 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none programming and for sure non-DB. > Colby" wrote: > the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... So is controller performing a Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position info)/write (new data and new position info) ? Versus a read (position info)/write (data and position info) Isn't that an efficiency give-back? Do spin up drives do this too? I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened to handle more writes. I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now I am worried about the longevity of my NAS. I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to an "even" number of times. I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to me readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and lack of uptake capability (gray matter). So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we both know why. From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 12:07:22 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:07:22 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: <5321CBC4.1000204@torchlake.com> References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com> <531D4993.1000705@gmail.com> <531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <5321CBC4.1000204@torchlake.com> Message-ID: I liked the root beer float one but I can never get the digit order just right to retell it accurately. Bill. <<-- majors in minors On Mar 13, 2014 11:17 AM, "Tina Norris Fields" wrote: > Definitely one of my favs, too. :-) > TNF > > Tina Norris Fields > tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com > 231-322-2787 > > On 3/10/2014 8:38 AM, Jim Dettman wrote: > >> One of my fav quotes: >> >> "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, >> and >> those who don't." >> >> Jim. >> >> >> > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From df.waters at comcast.net Thu Mar 13 12:15:01 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:15:01 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006a01cf3edf$c4dc8850$4e9598f0$@comcast.net> My access databases run MUCH faster on SSD's ... this is a great conversation! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:06 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none programming and for sure non-DB. > Colby" wrote: > the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... So is controller performing a Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position info)/write (new data and new position info) ? Versus a read (position info)/write (data and position info) Isn't that an efficiency give-back? Do spin up drives do this too? I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened to handle more writes. I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now I am worried about the longevity of my NAS. I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to an "even" number of times. I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to me readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and lack of uptake capability (gray matter). So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we both know why. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 12:39:56 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:39:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> The controller is doing a completely behind the scenes movement of blocks of data. From what I have read it does so when there is nothing else going on. Basically the controller looks for high wear level blocks which still function but need to stop being written to. IOW, blocks that have been written to many times. It then grabs a block of data from a low wear level AND apparently static - not written very often or for a long time - and moves that block to the high wear level block. The idea is that if a block isn't updated often then it can go in an area that has already been written a lot (but still functions) and so drop the future writes to that high use block. The SSD apparently keeps dynamic counts of the number of times a block of NAND has been written. So you write a spreadsheet to SSD for example. It sits there for a year, looked at but never written / updated. The NAND storage location that it sits in has a use count of 1. You have another location which is a small MDB. You are writing to that daily. Literally (from the PC's perspective) the same area of the "disk" is read / updated / updated / updated. So that NAND storage location may get an update count of 1000 in a month. Keep in mind that NAND blocks are somewhat small, 64K perhaps. At any rate, the SSD controller is watching the number of times every NAND block is written to. It then sees that one block has a count of 1 and another has a count of 1000. So behind the scenes, it swaps those two blocks. The spreadsheet now sits in a block written 1000 times and the database sits in a block that has been written once. Since the spreadsheet is never written it doesn't matter that it sits in a high wear location. The MDB however gets an unused block or NAND. This is called "wear leveling". All SSDs do this. All behind the scenes, and all done in controller logic inside of the SSD. The PC / OS never knows it is occurring. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 1:05 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none > programming and for sure non-DB. > >> Colby" wrote: >> the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other > dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... > > So is controller performing a > > Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position > info)/write (new data and new position info) > ? > > Versus > > a read (position info)/write (data and position info) > > Isn't that an efficiency give-back? > > Do spin up drives do this too? > > I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened to > handle more writes. > > I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now I > am worried about the longevity of my NAS. > > I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going > on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it > right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to an > "even" number of times. > > I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an > electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to me > readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and > lack of uptake capability (gray matter). > > So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we > both know why. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:04:50 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:04:50 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: To me this sounds STUPID. Not stupidly Described, but stupidly contrived. Therefore since people are making and spending scored of Billions on it, CLEARLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. It sounds like this: I know disk areas are getting worn down so I will just wear down ALL my areas. LOL+LOL to the Google power. I mean, how stupid is that?? So what, I can write some MORE data later to the thinly used area when I am ready to REAL write something? So that I can write SOME MORE to an area I already decided had been written to too often? I MEAN SERIOUSLY (!) Isn't it easier just to leave well enough alone? Just spread out your actual writes over the lesser used places? I am bowing out of this discussion and going back to Access! On Mar 13, 2014 1:41 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > The controller is doing a completely behind the scenes movement of blocks > of data. From what I have read it does so when there is nothing else going > on. Basically the controller looks for high wear level blocks which still > function but need to stop being written to. IOW, blocks that have been > written to many times. It then grabs a block of data from a low wear level > AND apparently static - not written very often or for a long time - and > moves that block to the high wear level block. The idea is that if a block > isn't updated often then it can go in an area that has already been written > a lot (but still functions) and so drop the future writes to that high use > block. > > The SSD apparently keeps dynamic counts of the number of times a block of > NAND has been written. So you write a spreadsheet to SSD for example. It > sits there for a year, looked at but never written / updated. The NAND > storage location that it sits in has a use count of 1. You have another > location which is a small MDB. You are writing to that daily. Literally > (from the PC's perspective) the same area of the "disk" is read / updated / > updated / updated. So that NAND storage location may get an update count > of 1000 in a month. Keep in mind that NAND blocks are somewhat small, 64K > perhaps. > > At any rate, the SSD controller is watching the number of times every NAND > block is written to. It then sees that one block has a count of 1 and > another has a count of 1000. So behind the scenes, it swaps those two > blocks. The spreadsheet now sits in a block written 1000 times and the > database sits in a block that has been written once. Since the spreadsheet > is never written it doesn't matter that it sits in a high wear location. > The MDB however gets an unused block or NAND. This is called "wear > leveling". All SSDs do this. > > All behind the scenes, and all done in controller logic inside of the SSD. > The PC / OS never knows it is occurring. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/13/2014 1:05 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none >> programming and for sure non-DB. >> >> Colby" wrote: >>> the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other >>> >> dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... >> >> So is controller performing a >> >> Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position >> info)/write (new data and new position info) >> ? >> >> Versus >> >> a read (position info)/write (data and position info) >> >> Isn't that an efficiency give-back? >> >> Do spin up drives do this too? >> >> I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened >> to >> handle more writes. >> >> I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now I >> am worried about the longevity of my NAS. >> >> I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going >> on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it >> right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to an >> "even" number of times. >> >> I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an >> electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to me >> readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and >> lack of uptake capability (gray matter). >> >> So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we >> both know why. >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:32:41 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:32:41 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounding stupid and being wrong are two different matters. So here is a excerpt regarding static wear leveling (which is the subject we are talking on) " This means that a static block that contains valid data but that is never being written to will still be moved around within the flash in order to allow all blocks to receive the same amount of wear. It's easy to understand why this would help, since those blocks would otherwise be unavailable to the wear leveling algorithm. On the other hand, if you're trying to minimize write/erase cycles, it's unintuitive that this approach is the better of the two." I buy the unintuitive part alright! Here is the rest of the article which probably has some of the same stuff John got his info from. Which Ai am still trying to learn from but doubt I can. http://thessdguy.com/how-controllers-maximize-ssd-life-better-wear-leveling/ And NOW, I will go back to Access. AFTER my lunch period. On Mar 13, 2014 2:04 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > To me this sounds STUPID. Not stupidly Described, but stupidly contrived. > Therefore since people are making and spending scored of Billions on it, > CLEARLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. > > It sounds like this: I know disk areas are getting worn down so I will > just wear down ALL my areas. LOL+LOL to the Google power. > > I mean, how stupid is that?? So what, I can write some MORE data later to > the thinly used area when I am ready to REAL write something? So that I can > write SOME MORE to an area I already decided had been written to too > often? I MEAN SERIOUSLY (!) > > Isn't it easier just to leave well enough alone? Just spread out your > actual writes over the lesser used places? > > I am bowing out of this discussion and going back to Access! > On Mar 13, 2014 1:41 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >> The controller is doing a completely behind the scenes movement of blocks >> of data. From what I have read it does so when there is nothing else going >> on. Basically the controller looks for high wear level blocks which still >> function but need to stop being written to. IOW, blocks that have been >> written to many times. It then grabs a block of data from a low wear level >> AND apparently static - not written very often or for a long time - and >> moves that block to the high wear level block. The idea is that if a block >> isn't updated often then it can go in an area that has already been written >> a lot (but still functions) and so drop the future writes to that high use >> block. >> >> The SSD apparently keeps dynamic counts of the number of times a block of >> NAND has been written. So you write a spreadsheet to SSD for example. It >> sits there for a year, looked at but never written / updated. The NAND >> storage location that it sits in has a use count of 1. You have another >> location which is a small MDB. You are writing to that daily. Literally >> (from the PC's perspective) the same area of the "disk" is read / updated / >> updated / updated. So that NAND storage location may get an update count >> of 1000 in a month. Keep in mind that NAND blocks are somewhat small, 64K >> perhaps. >> >> At any rate, the SSD controller is watching the number of times every >> NAND block is written to. It then sees that one block has a count of 1 and >> another has a count of 1000. So behind the scenes, it swaps those two >> blocks. The spreadsheet now sits in a block written 1000 times and the >> database sits in a block that has been written once. Since the spreadsheet >> is never written it doesn't matter that it sits in a high wear location. >> The MDB however gets an unused block or NAND. This is called "wear >> leveling". All SSDs do this. >> >> All behind the scenes, and all done in controller logic inside of the >> SSD. The PC / OS never knows it is occurring. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/13/2014 1:05 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> >>> See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none >>> programming and for sure non-DB. >>> >>> Colby" wrote: >>>> the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other >>>> >>> dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... >>> >>> So is controller performing a >>> >>> Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position >>> info)/write (new data and new position info) >>> ? >>> >>> Versus >>> >>> a read (position info)/write (data and position info) >>> >>> Isn't that an efficiency give-back? >>> >>> Do spin up drives do this too? >>> >>> I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened >>> to >>> handle more writes. >>> >>> I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now >>> I >>> am worried about the longevity of my NAS. >>> >>> I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going >>> on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it >>> right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to >>> an >>> "even" number of times. >>> >>> I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an >>> electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to >>> me >>> readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and >>> lack of uptake capability (gray matter). >>> >>> So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we >>> both know why. >>> >> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 13:36:20 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:36:20 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> Well Bill think of it this way. 1) Each area can only be written to X times (about 3000 in fact) 2) I have a spreadsheet which has only been written to once (when it was stored initially) That area can be written to 2999 more times. 3) I have a database area that has been written to 2500 times. It can still hold data but is approaching the end of it's useful life. What would YOU do? If you don't move the database area, then in 500 more writes it will fail to correctly store and you will lose data. Ohhh.. wait a minute, I happen to have a block over here which was written a year ago, exactly one time. Hmmm... if I were to swap those two blocks then the database can continue to be written to. The spreadsheet is still safe, and it is NEVER written to. The database is still safe and can continue to be written to. SSDs have a fundamental "problem" that any given NAND block can only be written to X times. You have to do SOMETHING to "level" the wear evenly across the disk or you will very quickly completely destroy some areas and leave others entirely unused. When I say destroy I mean unable to hold anything at all. Notice that when I swapped the spreadsheet and the db, the spreadsheet was perfectly safe in the new location. So we prevented "destroying" that storage location by selecting something that wouldn't be written again and storing that in there. So you are correct you ARE wearing down ALL of your locations - EVENLY. It is in fact possible to completely destroy an SSD disk. If there are no "static" files, files which are not updated, if EVERY file is written over and over and over (3000 times) then EVERY location will be written until it simply is unable to hold data. The articles I posted links to explain all this stuff. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 2:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > To me this sounds STUPID. Not stupidly Described, but stupidly contrived. > Therefore since people are making and spending scored of Billions on it, > CLEARLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. > > It sounds like this: I know disk areas are getting worn down so I will > just wear down ALL my areas. LOL+LOL to the Google power. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Thu Mar 13 13:56:57 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:56:57 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin Deal on "Small Tablet" ($9.99 at Target) References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com><02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com><53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com><5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: All, This week, Target is selling a "no contract" Kyocera cell phone for $9.99. I believe that this offer ends on Saturday. I am not sure if this deal is available in all Target stores. (Our local Target store said that they would issue Rain Checks if their supply runs out) Every night, I monitor a number of reports (Access 2007 system). I normally do this via an iPad (about $600). My wife and I share an iPad at home and recently we have talked about buying a second one. Earlier in the week, I picked up one of the Kyocera cell phones at Target. Within a short amount of time, I had the browser, g-mail, YouTube, MP3 player, DropBox, etc. all working via our home wireless network. Now I can check the Access reports via this new little "tablet" (Android). I am still finding it hard to believe that so much can be done on such an inexpensive device. Brad From steve at datamanagementsolutions.biz Thu Mar 13 14:07:42 2014 From: steve at datamanagementsolutions.biz (Steve Schapel) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:07:42 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Tony's back.... In-Reply-To: References: <201403100157.s2A1vMCf024930@databaseadvisors.com><531D4993.1000705@gmail.com><531D52DE.31100.2E019A4D@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg><5321CBC4.1000204@torchlake.com> Message-ID: <018BDC7A1A974C1E9B55C886E70E774A@SteveT540p> LOL! -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 6:07 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Tony's back.... I liked the root beer float one but I can never get the digit order just right to retell it accurately. Bill. <<-- majors in minors On Mar 13, 2014 11:17 AM, "Tina Norris Fields" wrote: > Definitely one of my favs, too. :-) > TNF > > Tina Norris Fields > tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com > 231-322-2787 > > On 3/10/2014 8:38 AM, Jim Dettman wrote: > >> One of my fav quotes: >> >> "There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, >> and >> those who don't." >> >> Jim. >> >> >> > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:16:17 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:16:17 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> Message-ID: As for what I would do, I would teleport the data into another dimension, FTL. Then bring it back later: it will be younger than it was, and it might come back carrying my missing socks from the dryer. But that's me. You asked. Just think it is more intuitive to move data if I need the room, and not before. Of course my plan has no practical outlet and doesn't even make logical sense. Otherwise I am writing all the time and STILL have the same problem, like trying to make all the children above average. Or if I am going make a lot of writes, I would expect, if the controller knows the write count of every bit, it would know to find the bits that have been written to the least and use them next, for official (real) writes. When it runs out of unused bits, it would grab the next least used bits. I see no value in the extra writing. It just ensures every bit suffers. I think what is being missed on my part is what DELETING DATA does. I ASSUME (ahem... caveats) that deleting means not wiping, but masking data to make it not readable. So the controller actually CAN write to all bits in a long stream of bita, not re-using deleted areas until it runs out of free area. Then I would expect the controller to do this marshaling thing with every official write. As opposed to pre-emptively. Because, all things being equal, who is to say how much space I am going to write to, until I go ahead and do it. I can't envision how pre - emptive writing moving) blocks customers down the wear and tear, unless it is to try to be AFTER at the time bona fide writes are being done. It's the difference between moving money around within the Fed just to move money around, and doing it because there is real borrowing going on. Most of the time my hdd is doing absolutely nothing (no writes) but at some point it might do a lot. Do I want this controller pushing dirt from one end of the room to another when I haven't asked for a place to lie down, just to keep the room evenly filthy? But again, that's me and my inability to visualize this topic. No irony. There is no getting through to me John. Though your class module thing did finally sink in, sorta. On Mar 13, 2014 2:37 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > Well Bill think of it this way. > > 1) Each area can only be written to X times (about 3000 in fact) > 2) I have a spreadsheet which has only been written to once (when it was > stored initially) That area can be written to 2999 more times. > 3) I have a database area that has been written to 2500 times. It can > still hold data but is approaching the end of it's useful life. > > What would YOU do? > > If you don't move the database area, then in 500 more writes it will fail > to correctly store and you will lose data. > > Ohhh.. wait a minute, I happen to have a block over here which was written > a year ago, exactly one time. Hmmm... if I were to swap those two blocks > then the database can continue to be written to. The spreadsheet is still > safe, and it is NEVER written to. The database is still safe and can > continue to be written to. > > SSDs have a fundamental "problem" that any given NAND block can only be > written to X times. You have to do SOMETHING to "level" the wear evenly > across the disk or you will very quickly completely destroy some areas and > leave others entirely unused. > > When I say destroy I mean unable to hold anything at all. Notice that > when I swapped the spreadsheet and the db, the spreadsheet was perfectly > safe in the new location. So we prevented "destroying" that storage > location by selecting something that wouldn't be written again and storing > that in there. > > So you are correct you ARE wearing down ALL of your locations - EVENLY. > It is in fact possible to completely destroy an SSD disk. If there are no > "static" files, files which are not updated, if EVERY file is written over > and over and over (3000 times) then EVERY location will be written until it > simply is unable to hold data. > > The articles I posted links to explain all this stuff. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/13/2014 2:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> To me this sounds STUPID. Not stupidly Described, but stupidly contrived. >> Therefore since people are making and spending scored of Billions on it, >> CLEARLY I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT. >> >> It sounds like this: I know disk areas are getting worn down so I will >> just wear down ALL my areas. LOL+LOL to the Google power. >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From marksimms at verizon.net Thu Mar 13 14:20:46 2014 From: marksimms at verizon.net (Mark Simms) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:20:46 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <006a01cf3edf$c4dc8850$4e9598f0$@comcast.net> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <006a01cf3edf$c4dc8850$4e9598f0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <021801cf3ef1$5669d2d0$033d7870$@net> That is exactly my experience as well.... > > My access databases run MUCH faster on SSD's ... this is a great > conversation! > > Dan From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:24:30 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:24:30 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532205EE.8090702@gmail.com> The thing to know is that all this stuff does not matter. You have no control over it in any way shape or form, so how it does it is irrelevant. Just know that EVERY SSD does this kind of thing in some fashion, and then get on with your life. The only reason I even went into it is because you asked. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 3:16 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > As for what I would do, I would teleport the data into another dimension, > FTL. Then bring it back later: it will be younger than it was, and it might > come back carrying my missing socks from the dryer. But that's me. You > asked. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:31:10 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:31:10 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <532205EE.8090702@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> <532205EE.8090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well put and we'll put to bed. On Mar 13, 2014 3:25 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > The thing to know is that all this stuff does not matter. You have no > control over it in any way shape or form, so how it does it is irrelevant. > Just know that EVERY SSD does this kind of thing in some fashion, and then > get on with your life. The only reason I even went into it is because you > asked. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/13/2014 3:16 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> As for what I would do, I would teleport the data into another dimension, >> FTL. Then bring it back later: it will be younger than it was, and it >> might >> come back carrying my missing socks from the dryer. But that's me. You >> asked. >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 14:47:27 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:47:27 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <021801cf3ef1$5669d2d0$033d7870$@net> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <006a01cf3edf$c4dc8850$4e9598f0$@comcast.net> <021801cf3ef1$5669d2d0$033d7870$@net> Message-ID: <53220B4F.20202@gmail.com> Now imagine your SQL Server database striped across a 5 disk Raid 5 SSD array, with a dedicated PCIE controller. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 3:20 PM, Mark Simms wrote: > That is exactly my experience as well.... >> My access databases run MUCH faster on SSD's ... this is a great >> conversation! >> >> Dan > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Mar 13 14:56:17 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:56:17 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <532205EE.8090702@gmail.com> References: <5320681A.80909@gmail.com> <02de01cf3e01$754c2e50$5fe48af0$@gmail.com> <53207B6A.5090906@gmail.com> <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> <5321FAA4.3090800@gmail.com> <532205EE.8090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: My understanding is that the background 'move' is on the better SSD'd, not all of them. Good SSD's also have a substantially larger amount of memory than is specified as the drive size, so that there are 'spare blocks' to use in place of failing blocks. Almost all modern SSD's include as part of their management of the deletion of data, an option to change the mapping of physical memory onto the 'drive storage' map so continually cycling wear through blocks. However such changing the mapping of the drive which makes recovery of deleted files a problem. And other than the pagefile, the part of the 'drive storage' that is liable to get the most changes - incurring erase and rewrite is that used for the MFT. So if you have not got the background move, the data you are most likely to lose will be the MFT which, luckily, the windows OS manages with recoverability built-in to it's handling. And while, certainly within XP, the 'do not verify' option does not apply to MFT on normal rotating, USB connected hard drives, I have not found any details as to the effect of 'turning off verify' on SSD's or later Windows OS's. JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:25 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD The thing to know is that all this stuff does not matter. You have no control over it in any way shape or form, so how it does it is irrelevant. Just know that EVERY SSD does this kind of thing in some fashion, and then get on with your life. The only reason I even went into it is because you asked. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 3:16 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > As for what I would do, I would teleport the data into another dimension, > FTL. Then bring it back later: it will be younger than it was, and it might > come back carrying my missing socks from the dryer. But that's me. You > asked. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 13 15:10:38 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD In-Reply-To: <5321ED6C.2050507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <679729353.2109743.1394741438884.JavaMail.root@cds018> Very interesting. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Thursday, 13 March, 2014 10:39:56 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Smokin deal on SSD The controller is doing a completely behind the scenes movement of blocks of data. From what I have read it does so when there is nothing else going on. Basically the controller looks for high wear level blocks which still function but need to stop being written to. IOW, blocks that have been written to many times. It then grabs a block of data from a low wear level AND apparently static - not written very often or for a long time - and moves that block to the high wear level block. The idea is that if a block isn't updated often then it can go in an area that has already been written a lot (but still functions) and so drop the future writes to that high use block. The SSD apparently keeps dynamic counts of the number of times a block of NAND has been written. So you write a spreadsheet to SSD for example. It sits there for a year, looked at but never written / updated. The NAND storage location that it sits in has a use count of 1. You have another location which is a small MDB. You are writing to that daily. Literally (from the PC's perspective) the same area of the "disk" is read / updated / updated / updated. So that NAND storage location may get an update count of 1000 in a month. Keep in mind that NAND blocks are somewhat small, 64K perhaps. At any rate, the SSD controller is watching the number of times every NAND block is written to. It then sees that one block has a count of 1 and another has a count of 1000. So behind the scenes, it swaps those two blocks. The spreadsheet now sits in a block written 1000 times and the database sits in a block that has been written once. Since the spreadsheet is never written it doesn't matter that it sits in a high wear location. The MDB however gets an unused block or NAND. This is called "wear leveling". All SSDs do this. All behind the scenes, and all done in controller logic inside of the SSD. The PC / OS never knows it is occurring. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/13/2014 1:05 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > See what you've started, now gonna get flamed cuz this is so none > programming and for sure non-DB. > >> Colby" wrote: >> the controller itself will move that static data around to allow other > dynamic data to "use" the areas not yet written... > > So is controller performing a > > Read(old position info, old data)/re-write(old data, new position > info)/write (new data and new position info) > ? > > Versus > > a read (position info)/write (data and position info) > > Isn't that an efficiency give-back? > > Do spin up drives do this too? > > I wonder how fast SSDS would be if they did not do this or were hardened to > handle more writes. > > I also don't tend to do a lot of writes to HD, unlike storage drive. Now I > am worried about the longevity of my NAS. > > I realize it is "not so simple" but how the heck, with all a PC has going > on, can it be practical to optimize something like this? And to get it > right (er, write?) In terms of how many disk atoms have been written to an > "even" number of times. > > I've read about drives ad nauseum but I am neither a mechanical not an > electrical engineer nor nanotechnology savvy. The stuff doesn't come to me > readily and state of the art doesn't stay still, for long enough... and > lack of uptake capability (gray matter). > > So I may not be worth your time replying -- and if you don't, I guess we > both know why. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From kost36 at otenet.gr Thu Mar 13 18:24:52 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 01:24:52 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I use a subform with a record source: SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = peoplefilms.IDperson; on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works adding any new record on people the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on people.sex have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes thank's a lot /kostas From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 18:54:37 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 19:54:37 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to itself there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is IDPerson unique in both tables? If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, whether the field be aa or sex. On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" wrote: > Hi, > I use a subform with a record source: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works > adding any new record on people > > the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on > people.sex > have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes > > > thank's a lot > > /kostas > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From kost36 at otenet.gr Fri Mar 14 04:39:24 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:39:24 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie (e.g. as director and as an actor too) the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field people ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique sex --> a simple checkbox peoplefilms aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null ID_films --> Primary, Not Null ID_person --> Primary, Not Null thank's for your response /kostas -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to itself there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is IDPerson unique in both tables? If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, whether the field be aa or sex. On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" wrote: > Hi, > I use a subform with a record source: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works > adding any new record on people > > the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on > people.sex > have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes > > > thank's a lot > > /kostas > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 14 06:40:39 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:40:39 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the people table, going by your fields your query below: SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = peoplefilms.IDperson; should be: SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = peoplefilmsID_person; Paul On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > Hi Bill, > no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most > usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie (e.g. > as director and as an actor too) > > the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) > in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field > > people > ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique > person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique > sex --> a simple checkbox > > peoplefilms > aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null > ID_films --> Primary, Not Null > ID_person --> Primary, Not Null > > thank's for your response > > /kostas > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those > not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to itself > there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which > would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is IDPerson > unique in both tables? > > If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, > whether the field be aa or sex. > On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" wrote: > > Hi, >> I use a subform with a record source: >> >> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >> peoplefilms.IDperson; >> >> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >> adding any new record on people >> >> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >> people.sex >> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >> >> >> thank's a lot >> >> /kostas >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From kost36 at otenet.gr Fri Mar 14 07:41:10 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:41:10 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> yes Paul, I just renamed the fields because in their first version were in greeklish I think there is no difference to the result of the query thank's /kostas -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:40 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the people table, going by your fields your query below: SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = peoplefilms.IDperson; should be: SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = peoplefilmsID_person; Paul On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > Hi Bill, > no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most > usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie (e.g. > as director and as an actor too) > > the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) > in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field > > people > ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique > person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique > sex --> a simple checkbox > > peoplefilms > aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null > ID_films --> Primary, Not Null > ID_person --> Primary, Not Null > > thank's for your response > > /kostas > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those > not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to itself > there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which > would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is > IDPerson > unique in both tables? > > If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, > whether the field be aa or sex. > On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" wrote: > > Hi, >> I use a subform with a record source: >> >> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >> peoplefilms.IDperson; >> >> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >> adding any new record on people >> >> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >> people.sex >> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >> >> >> thank's a lot >> >> /kostas >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 14 08:03:23 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:03:23 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> References: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> Message-ID: ok, I may be missing something here but going by your table descriptions: 1. Why all the primary keys ?, I would have thought putting a primary key on people.ID_People and peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms would be enough and maybe index peoplefilms.ID_person. 2. In the people table the field called person, is this a name ?, if so why have it set to unique ? 3. You mentioned having a 'not in list' on peoplefilms.IDPerson which I assume you meant peoplefilms.ID_Person, what's the reason behind that ? Paul On 14 March 2014 12:41, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > yes Paul, > I just renamed the fields because in their first version were in greeklish > I think there is no difference to the result of the query > thank's > /kostas > > > > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:40 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, > the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the > people table, going by your fields your query below: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > should be: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = > peoplefilmsID_person; > > Paul > > > On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > > Hi Bill, >> no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most >> usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie (e.g. >> as director and as an actor too) >> >> the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) >> in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field >> >> people >> ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique >> person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique >> sex --> a simple checkbox >> >> peoplefilms >> aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null >> ID_films --> Primary, Not Null >> ID_person --> Primary, Not Null >> >> thank's for your response >> >> /kostas >> >> >> -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson >> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... >> >> Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those >> not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to itself >> there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which >> would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is >> IDPerson >> unique in both tables? >> >> If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, >> whether the field be aa or sex. >> On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> I use a subform with a record source: >>> >>> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >>> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >>> peoplefilms.IDperson; >>> >>> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >>> adding any new record on people >>> >>> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >>> people.sex >>> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >>> >>> >>> thank's a lot >>> >>> /kostas >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From kost36 at otenet.gr Fri Mar 14 09:12:13 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:12:13 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> Message-ID: First of all database is linked to an mysql tables via ODBC 5.1 driver 1.You have right but I tried all the methods I knew about primary and index 2. yes person, is a name which is saved in person.T_people and is Unique because of many incompatibilities between mysql and utf-8 codepage (e.g. utf-8 can't separate the Greek language letters with tons and there are many cases in Greek names in which the name may be seems the same but it doen't because the word is highlighted in another letter... and that's a problem) 3. record source of peoplefilms.IDPerson is: SELECT T_people.ID_person, T_people.person FROM T_people ORDER BY T_people.person; With that when the user writes a new name if it isn't alreadh into the list, it added on T_people getting a new people.ID_People which is autonumber the not in list code is a known one: Dim db As dao.Database Dim rs As dao.Recordset Dim strMsg As String strMsg = "'" & NewData & "' greek message" & vbCrLf & vbCrLf strMsg = strMsg & "greek message" strMsg = strMsg & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & "greek message No greek message" If MsgBox(strMsg, vbQuestion + vbYesNo, "greek message;") = vbNo Then Response = acDataErrContinue Else Set db = CurrentDb Set rs = db.OpenRecordset("T_people", dbOpenDynaset) On Error Resume Next rs.AddNew rs!person = NewData rs.Update If Err Then MsgBox "greek message" Response = acDataErrContinue Else Response = acDataErrAdded End If End If -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:03 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... ok, I may be missing something here but going by your table descriptions: 1. Why all the primary keys ?, I would have thought putting a primary key on people.ID_People and peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms would be enough and maybe index peoplefilms.ID_person. 2. In the people table the field called person, is this a name ?, if so why have it set to unique ? 3. You mentioned having a 'not in list' on peoplefilms.IDPerson which I assume you meant peoplefilms.ID_Person, what's the reason behind that ? Paul On 14 March 2014 12:41, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > yes Paul, > I just renamed the fields because in their first version were in greeklish > I think there is no difference to the result of the query > thank's > /kostas > > > > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:40 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, > the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the > people table, going by your fields your query below: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > should be: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = > peoplefilmsID_person; > > Paul > > > On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > > Hi Bill, >> no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most >> usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie >> (e.g. >> as director and as an actor too) >> >> the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) >> in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field >> >> people >> ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique >> person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique >> sex --> a simple checkbox >> >> peoplefilms >> aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null >> ID_films --> Primary, Not Null >> ID_person --> Primary, Not Null >> >> thank's for your response >> >> /kostas >> >> >> -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson >> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... >> >> Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those >> not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to >> itself >> there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which >> would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is >> IDPerson >> unique in both tables? >> >> If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, >> whether the field be aa or sex. >> On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> I use a subform with a record source: >>> >>> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >>> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >>> peoplefilms.IDperson; >>> >>> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >>> adding any new record on people >>> >>> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >>> people.sex >>> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >>> >>> >>> thank's a lot >>> >>> /kostas >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 20:20:56 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 21:20:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Listbox Issue - Selected Property or ListIndex persisting after requery In-Reply-To: <5321C7D7.4000809@gmail.com> References: <8pihvy6r5ax30f6pscpy72qh.1394658951134@email.android.com> <09eb01cf3e39$e57790b0$b066b210$@gmail.com> <020601cf3ead$0d2a8b30$277fa190$@gmail.com> <5321A97D.70306@gmail.com> <5321B69A.50100@gmail.com> <5321C7D7.4000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: John, what does the class module code for your clsList look like? Does the below come close? I am uncertain whether declaration of the collection belongs inside the class or in a public module. I would think inside the class otherwise what is the point... but I do remember in most of my work with class modules adding the class itself to a public collection to guarantee its persistence as long as VBA is not reset. I think I am confused about different reason to use the collection, which might be why I doubted you earlier that code was conserved. Option Explicit Option Compare Database Public With Events clsList as Listbox Private mcolDependents as New Collection Public Sub mDependentObj (objList as Listbox) mcolDependents.Add objList End Sub Private Sub clsList_AfterUpdate() Dim objList as Object For Each objList in mcolDependents objList.Requery Next End Sub I don't follow your code below. Maybe your email editor added a space before the .mDependentObj ? > clsCboClass .mDependentObj clsCboTeam > clsCboTeam .mDependentObj clsCboTeamPeople > From vbacreations at gmail.com Sat Mar 15 22:19:44 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 23:19:44 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: References: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> Message-ID: <0a6501cf40c6$953207e0$bf9617a0$@gmail.com> >> many incompatibilities between mysql and utf-8 codepage (e.g. utf-8 can't separate the Greek language letters with tons and there are many cases in Greek names in which the name may be seems the same but it doen't because the word is highlighted in another letter... and that's a problem) Man that sucks!!! Good luck, I quickly lost focus on this, I had one "insight" but it did not seem to be the issue. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kostas Konstantinidis Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:12 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... First of all database is linked to an mysql tables via ODBC 5.1 driver 1.You have right but I tried all the methods I knew about primary and index 2. yes person, is a name which is saved in person.T_people and is Unique because of many incompatibilities between mysql and utf-8 codepage (e.g. utf-8 can't separate the Greek language letters with tons and there are many cases in Greek names in which the name may be seems the same but it doen't because the word is highlighted in another letter... and that's a problem) 3. record source of peoplefilms.IDPerson is: SELECT T_people.ID_person, T_people.person FROM T_people ORDER BY T_people.person; With that when the user writes a new name if it isn't alreadh into the list, it added on T_people getting a new people.ID_People which is autonumber the not in list code is a known one: Dim db As dao.Database Dim rs As dao.Recordset Dim strMsg As String strMsg = "'" & NewData & "' greek message" & vbCrLf & vbCrLf strMsg = strMsg & "greek message" strMsg = strMsg & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & "greek message No greek message" If MsgBox(strMsg, vbQuestion + vbYesNo, "greek message;") = vbNo Then Response = acDataErrContinue Else Set db = CurrentDb Set rs = db.OpenRecordset("T_people", dbOpenDynaset) On Error Resume Next rs.AddNew rs!person = NewData rs.Update If Err Then MsgBox "greek message" Response = acDataErrContinue Else Response = acDataErrAdded End If End If -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:03 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... ok, I may be missing something here but going by your table descriptions: 1. Why all the primary keys ?, I would have thought putting a primary key on people.ID_People and peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms would be enough and maybe index peoplefilms.ID_person. 2. In the people table the field called person, is this a name ?, if so why have it set to unique ? 3. You mentioned having a 'not in list' on peoplefilms.IDPerson which I assume you meant peoplefilms.ID_Person, what's the reason behind that ? Paul On 14 March 2014 12:41, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > yes Paul, > I just renamed the fields because in their first version were in greeklish > I think there is no difference to the result of the query > thank's > /kostas > > > > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:40 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, > the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the > people table, going by your fields your query below: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > should be: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = > peoplefilmsID_person; > > Paul > > > On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > > Hi Bill, >> no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most >> usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie >> (e.g. >> as director and as an actor too) >> >> the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) >> in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field >> >> people >> ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique >> person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique >> sex --> a simple checkbox >> >> peoplefilms >> aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null >> ID_films --> Primary, Not Null >> ID_person --> Primary, Not Null >> >> thank's for your response >> >> /kostas >> >> >> -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson >> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... >> >> Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those >> not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to >> itself >> there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which >> would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is >> IDPerson >> unique in both tables? >> >> If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, >> whether the field be aa or sex. >> On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> I use a subform with a record source: >>> >>> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >>> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >>> peoplefilms.IDperson; >>> >>> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >>> adding any new record on people >>> >>> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >>> people.sex >>> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >>> >>> >>> thank's a lot >>> >>> /kostas >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From kost36 at otenet.gr Sun Mar 16 04:54:05 2014 From: kost36 at otenet.gr (Kostas Konstantinidis) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:54:05 +0200 Subject: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... In-Reply-To: <0a6501cf40c6$953207e0$bf9617a0$@gmail.com> References: <8A1C6E24AE3B4BF69BE90DB8DFD72926@kost36> <0a6501cf40c6$953207e0$bf9617a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44465FE287064514BA23A08C99804428@kost36> fixed... it may sounds simple... but it works :-) Private Sub ID_person_AfterUpdate() DoCmd.GoToRecord , , acPrevious DoCmd.GoToRecord , , acNext Me.nextField.SetFocus End Sub thank you all /kostas -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:19 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... >> many incompatibilities between mysql and utf-8 codepage (e.g. utf-8 can't separate the Greek language letters with tons and there are many cases in Greek names in which the name may be seems the same but it doen't because the word is highlighted in another letter... and that's a problem) Man that sucks!!! Good luck, I quickly lost focus on this, I had one "insight" but it did not seem to be the issue. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Kostas Konstantinidis Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 10:12 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... First of all database is linked to an mysql tables via ODBC 5.1 driver 1.You have right but I tried all the methods I knew about primary and index 2. yes person, is a name which is saved in person.T_people and is Unique because of many incompatibilities between mysql and utf-8 codepage (e.g. utf-8 can't separate the Greek language letters with tons and there are many cases in Greek names in which the name may be seems the same but it doen't because the word is highlighted in another letter... and that's a problem) 3. record source of peoplefilms.IDPerson is: SELECT T_people.ID_person, T_people.person FROM T_people ORDER BY T_people.person; With that when the user writes a new name if it isn't alreadh into the list, it added on T_people getting a new people.ID_People which is autonumber the not in list code is a known one: Dim db As dao.Database Dim rs As dao.Recordset Dim strMsg As String strMsg = "'" & NewData & "' greek message" & vbCrLf & vbCrLf strMsg = strMsg & "greek message" strMsg = strMsg & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & "greek message No greek message" If MsgBox(strMsg, vbQuestion + vbYesNo, "greek message;") = vbNo Then Response = acDataErrContinue Else Set db = CurrentDb Set rs = db.OpenRecordset("T_people", dbOpenDynaset) On Error Resume Next rs.AddNew rs!person = NewData rs.Update If Err Then MsgBox "greek message" Response = acDataErrContinue Else Response = acDataErrAdded End If End If -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:03 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... ok, I may be missing something here but going by your table descriptions: 1. Why all the primary keys ?, I would have thought putting a primary key on people.ID_People and peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms would be enough and maybe index peoplefilms.ID_person. 2. In the people table the field called person, is this a name ?, if so why have it set to unique ? 3. You mentioned having a 'not in list' on peoplefilms.IDPerson which I assume you meant peoplefilms.ID_Person, what's the reason behind that ? Paul On 14 March 2014 12:41, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > yes Paul, > I just renamed the fields because in their first version were in greeklish > I think there is no difference to the result of the query > thank's > /kostas > > > > > > -----?????? ??????----- From: Paul Hartland > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:40 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... > > Your select in your first email doesn't match the fields in you last one, > the underscores are missing and the id field is a different name in the > people table, going by your fields your query below: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = > peoplefilms.IDperson; > > should be: > > SELECT peoplefilms.aa_peoplefilms, peoplefilms.ID_person, people.sex > FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.ID_people = > peoplefilmsID_person; > > Paul > > > On 14 March 2014 09:39, Kostas Konstantinidis wrote: > > Hi Bill, >> no, it's unique only in people and not in peoplefilms because the most >> usual for a person is to appear more than one time in the same movie >> (e.g. >> as director and as an actor too) >> >> the weird is that it works for another similar database (for short films) >> in which the relationships are designed exactly the same field by field >> >> people >> ID_people --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null, Unique >> person --> Primary, Not Null, Unique >> sex --> a simple checkbox >> >> peoplefilms >> aa_peoplefilms --> Auto increment, Primary, Not Null >> ID_films --> Primary, Not Null >> ID_person --> Primary, Not Null >> >> thank's for your response >> >> /kostas >> >> >> -----?????? ??????----- From: Bill Benson >> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:54 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] field cannot be updated... >> >> Can you make changes BEFORE you add a record? It smells like one of those >> not update able query issue that happens when Access can't prove to >> itself >> there could be one and only one record that reults from the join. Which >> would be, if you joined on a key that is unique in both tables. Is >> IDPerson >> unique in both tables? >> >> If not, I would be surprised you could update existing records either, >> whether the field be aa or sex. >> On Mar 13, 2014 7:26 PM, "Kostas Konstantinidis" >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> I use a subform with a record source: >>> >>> SELECT peoplefilms.aa, peoplefilms.IDperson, people.sex >>> FROM people INNER JOIN peoplefilms ON people.IDperson = >>> peoplefilms.IDperson; >>> >>> on peoplefilms.IDperson there is also a "not in list" event which works >>> adding any new record on people >>> >>> the problem is that after a "not in list"... I can't make any change on >>> people.sex >>> have tried refresh or requery but nothing changes >>> >>> >>> thank's a lot >>> >>> /kostas >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From erbachs at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 14:22:41 2014 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:22:41 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links Message-ID: Dear Group, Long time... My wife, Janet, is doing Access 2007 work for a company in Manitowoc, WI. She commutes once or twice a week, but is able to work from home otherwise (it's about 40-45 miles away). The company has an AS400 and their Access databases link to the AS400 tables via ODBC. Up to now, their Access apps have all been stored on servers without being separated into FE/BE. Janet is beginning the process of splitting the databases. One big question, though: If an Access database has ODBC links to AS400 tables and she splits that database into front end and back end, will the new front end be able to use the AS400 tables via the back end? Or does each front end have to link to the ODBC tables separately and only link to the Access tables in the back end? I couldn't remember what was required, so I thought I'd ask y'all. Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI From jimdettman at verizon.net Mon Mar 17 15:26:51 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:26:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, a blast from the past... Each FE needs to link separately. I would suggest DSN-less connections if possible (all required ODBC info is in the tabledefs connect property). Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve Erbach Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 03:23 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links Dear Group, Long time... My wife, Janet, is doing Access 2007 work for a company in Manitowoc, WI. She commutes once or twice a week, but is able to work from home otherwise (it's about 40-45 miles away). The company has an AS400 and their Access databases link to the AS400 tables via ODBC. Up to now, their Access apps have all been stored on servers without being separated into FE/BE. Janet is beginning the process of splitting the databases. One big question, though: If an Access database has ODBC links to AS400 tables and she splits that database into front end and back end, will the new front end be able to use the AS400 tables via the back end? Or does each front end have to link to the ODBC tables separately and only link to the Access tables in the back end? I couldn't remember what was required, so I thought I'd ask y'all. Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 17 15:53:50 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 09:53:50 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange Message-ID: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> Hi Listers, Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: Error Number : -2147220977 Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. The VBA code I am using is below: Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, intSMTPConnectionTimeout As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As String, strBody As String, strHeader As String strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") With msg With .Configuration.Fields .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = intSMTPConnectionTimeout .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort .Update End With .Organization = strOrganisation .To = strTo .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") .From = strFrom .Send End With Set msg = Nothing The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was the correct data for these properties though). The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used Microsoft Exchange for their emails. It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the server. Any help would be appreciated. Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand From davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:24:25 2014 From: davidalangibson2010 at gmail.com (David A Gibson) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 16:24:25 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <04d401cf4227$4639bae0$d2ad30a0$@gmail.com> We used to send emails by Word mailmerge until an Exchange update screwed that up for us. Now it's hit or miss. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 3:54 PM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange Hi Listers, Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: Error Number : -2147220977 Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. The VBA code I am using is below: Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, intSMTPConnectionTimeout As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As String, strBody As String, strHeader As String strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") With msg With .Configuration.Fields .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = intSMTPConnectionTimeout .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort .Update End With .Organization = strOrganisation .To = strTo .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") .From = strFrom .Send End With Set msg = Nothing The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was the correct data for these properties though). The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used Microsoft Exchange for their emails. It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the server. Any help would be appreciated. Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:27:42 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:27:42 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532768CE.7070305@gmail.com> AFAIK the FE will split off with the old links to the AS400 intact, and new links to any native Access tables stored in the new BE. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/17/2014 3:22 PM, Steve Erbach wrote: > Dear Group, > > Long time... > > My wife, Janet, is doing Access 2007 work for a company in Manitowoc, WI. > She commutes once or twice a week, but is able to work from home otherwise > (it's about 40-45 miles away). > > The company has an AS400 and their Access databases link to the AS400 > tables via ODBC. Up to now, their Access apps have all been stored on > servers without being separated into FE/BE. Janet is beginning the process > of splitting the databases. > > One big question, though: If an Access database has ODBC links to AS400 > tables and she splits that database into front end and back end, will the > new front end be able to use the AS400 tables via the back end? Or does > each front end have to link to the ODBC tables separately and only link to > the Access tables in the back end? > > I couldn't remember what was required, so I thought I'd ask y'all. > > Regards, > > Steve Erbach > Neenah, WI --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 16:30:23 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 17:30:23 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <04d401cf4227$4639bae0$d2ad30a0$@gmail.com> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> <04d401cf4227$4639bae0$d2ad30a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5327696F.5010905@gmail.com> I took to using gmail since I could avoid all the "server issues". John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/17/2014 5:24 PM, David A Gibson wrote: > We used to send emails by Word mailmerge until an Exchange update screwed > that up for us. Now it's hit or miss. > > David Gibson > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson > Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 3:54 PM > To: AccessD > Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange > > Hi Listers, > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to send > out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server > response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, intSMTPConnectionTimeout As > Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As String, > strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > 1") > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > With msg > > With .Configuration.Fields > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > .Update > > End With > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > .To = strTo > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > .From = strFrom > > .Send > > End With > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > > > The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows logon > and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was the correct > data for these properties though). > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used Microsoft > Exchange for their emails. > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the server. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jbodin at sbor.com Mon Mar 17 16:38:29 2014 From: jbodin at sbor.com (John Bodin) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 21:38:29 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <04d401cf4227$4639bae0$d2ad30a0$@gmail.com> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> <04d401cf4227$4639bae0$d2ad30a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, it sounds like Exchange doesn't like the 'relaying' of your email. Typically when you setup a copier or email station that will allow users to send email to the outside world through Exchange, you have to set up a relay permission in Exchange with the IP address of the device that will be attempting to send emails through it. It's pretty easy to setup however if you have a lot of workstations that will be using this program, that will not work too well. Also some A/V programs will block as well, like McAfee. Out of the box it defaults to "Prevent Mass Mailing Programs..." so it blocks email traffic from say a backup program on the workstation that you setup to have the results emailed to you each night or you are using something like FMS Inc's Total Access Emailer. -hth John -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David A Gibson Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 5:24 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange We used to send emails by Word mailmerge until an Exchange update screwed that up for us. Now it's hit or miss. David Gibson -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 3:54 PM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange Hi Listers, Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: Error Number : -2147220977 Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. The VBA code I am using is below: Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, intSMTPConnectionTimeout As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As String, strBody As String, strHeader As String strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") With msg With .Configuration.Fields .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = intSMTPConnectionTimeout .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort .Update End With .Organization = strOrganisation .To = strTo .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") .From = strFrom .Send End With Set msg = Nothing The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was the correct data for these properties though). The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used Microsoft Exchange for their emails. It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the server. Any help would be appreciated. Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 17:11:11 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 08:11:11 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly suspect this line: .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server before it will accept email for an outside address. On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > Hi Listers, > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to > send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The > server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > intSMTPConnectionTimeout As > Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As > String, > strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = > 1") > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > 1") > > strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > With msg > > With .Configuration.Fields > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > .Update > > End With > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > .To = strTo > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > .From = strFrom > > .Send > > End With > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > > > The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows > logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was > the correct data for these properties though). > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > server. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 17 20:20:28 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:20:28 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz> <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <005701cf4248$3f7d2b80$be778280$@dalyn.co.nz> I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. I have the following in the code below which I tried: ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it should have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up for me before I go back to the client and do some testing? Regards David -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly suspect this line: .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server before it will accept email for an outside address. On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > Hi Listers, > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try to > send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > Error Number : -2147220977 > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The > server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, intSMTPConnectionTimeout As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > 1") > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > With msg > With .Configuration.Fields > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = intSMTPConnectionTimeout > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > .Update > End With > .Organization = strOrganisation > .To = strTo > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > .From = strFrom > .Send > End With > Set msg = Nothing > > The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows > logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this was > the correct data for these properties though). > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > server. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 21:37:43 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:37:43 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <005701cf4248$3f7d2b80$be778280$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <005701cf4248$3f7d2b80$be778280$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up the mail server and find out what authentication they require. On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it should > have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up for me > before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > Regards > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error > Sending Emails Through Exchange > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly suspect > this line: > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > Hi Listers, > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try > > to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The > > server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = > 1") > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > With msg > > With .Configuration.Fields > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > .Update > > End With > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > .To = strTo > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > .From = strFrom > > .Send > > End With > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > The lines in red above have also been tried using the users windows > > logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this > > was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > server. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards > > > > David Emerson > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > Wellington, New Zealand > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 10:27:52 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 11:27:52 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] MySQL setup Message-ID: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> I installed MariaDB a month or so ago, as well as HeidiSQL FE. Now I cannot remember my password or find any notes about doing the install etc. I really need to get this thing set up and running. Do I need to uninstall and reinstall or is there an easier way? I go to places like: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/installing-mariadb-with-the-rpm-tool/ And it looks as if the whole thing is written for Linux users which really doesn't help me. Is anyone working with this on Windows 7? -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Tue Mar 18 11:20:25 2014 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 12:20:25 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] MySQL setup In-Reply-To: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> References: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> Message-ID: JC, Safest bet is uninstall/re-install, and write down the credentials or save them to a file. On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:27 AM, John W Colby wrote: > I installed MariaDB a month or so ago, as well as HeidiSQL FE. Now I > cannot remember my password or find any notes about doing the install etc. > > I really need to get this thing set up and running. Do I need to > uninstall and reinstall or is there an easier way? I go to places like: > > https://mariadb.com/kb/en/installing-mariadb-with-the-rpm-tool/ > > And it looks as if the whole thing is written for Linux users which really > doesn't help me. > > Is anyone working with this on Windows 7? > > -- > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Arthur From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 08:17:11 2014 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:17:11 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links In-Reply-To: <532768CE.7070305@gmail.com> References: <532768CE.7070305@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, Fortunately, there were very few workstations that needed the ODBC links. My wife's been working on a shipping/scanning application for her new employer and they're pretty happy with it. She tells me that the AS400 is set up with sets of multiple physical tables containing the same data but different sort orders. Interesting way to do indexing, I'd say! Apparently a move is in the works for the company as a whole (offices in 35 countries Janet tells me) to switch to something like SAP or JD Edwards or some such...but that's a couple years down the road. Looks like they'll keep Janet around for more Access development. Thanks for the help. On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 PM, John W Colby wrote: > AFAIK the FE will split off with the old links to the AS400 intact, and > new links to any native Access tables stored in the new BE. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 3/17/2014 3:22 PM, Steve Erbach wrote: > >> Dear Group, >> >> Long time... >> >> My wife, Janet, is doing Access 2007 work for a company in Manitowoc, WI. >> She commutes once or twice a week, but is able to work from home otherwise >> (it's about 40-45 miles away). >> >> The company has an AS400 and their Access databases link to the AS400 >> tables via ODBC. Up to now, their Access apps have all been stored on >> servers without being separated into FE/BE. Janet is beginning the process >> of splitting the databases. >> >> One big question, though: If an Access database has ODBC links to AS400 >> tables and she splits that database into front end and back end, will the >> new front end be able to use the AS400 tables via the back end? Or does >> each front end have to link to the ODBC tables separately and only link to >> the Access tables in the back end? >> >> I couldn't remember what was required, so I thought I'd ask y'all. >> >> Regards, >> >> Steve Erbach >> Neenah, WI >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 08:20:54 2014 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:20:54 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Link to back end that has ODBC links In-Reply-To: <532768CE.7070305@gmail.com> References: <532768CE.7070305@gmail.com> Message-ID: John, The task was small (only three workstations). During the conversion my wife discovered that one of the AS400 tables had more than 32 indexes, which is the Access limit. As I wrote to Jim, these AS400 tables often come in sets with the same data in each of several tables, just in different sort orders. I believe that they picked one of those sort tables and were able to change the Access code in just a couple of places to reference the different table name...though now that I think about it, they could probably have simply renamed the linked table in the Access front-end, n'est-ce pas? No biggie; I'm not terribly involved other than to offer her instant messaging advice during the day. Thanks for your reply. On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 4:27 PM, John W Colby wrote: > AFAIK the FE will split off with the old links to the AS400 intact, and > new links to any native Access tables stored in the new BE. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 3/17/2014 3:22 PM, Steve Erbach wrote: > >> Dear Group, >> >> Long time... >> >> My wife, Janet, is doing Access 2007 work for a company in Manitowoc, WI. >> She commutes once or twice a week, but is able to work from home otherwise >> (it's about 40-45 miles away). >> >> The company has an AS400 and their Access databases link to the AS400 >> tables via ODBC. Up to now, their Access apps have all been stored on >> servers without being separated into FE/BE. Janet is beginning the process >> of splitting the databases. >> >> One big question, though: If an Access database has ODBC links to AS400 >> tables and she splits that database into front end and back end, will the >> new front end be able to use the AS400 tables via the back end? Or does >> each front end have to link to the ODBC tables separately and only link to >> the Access tables in the back end? >> >> I couldn't remember what was required, so I thought I'd ask y'all. >> >> Regards, >> >> Steve Erbach >> Neenah, WI >> > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Wed Mar 19 18:18:11 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 23:18:11 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA Message-ID: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Hi Guys and Girls. Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the Access FE that we refer too in this instance. Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. Things which were already in place: In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly once the object is closed and removed). The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down the memory creep, but it is still present. I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow down the memory creep, but still no cigar. So... Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might have missed I am all eyes and ears. Cheers Darryl Darryl Collins Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 p: +61 3 9898 3242 m: +61 418 381 548 f: +61 3 9898 1855 e: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au w: www.whittleconsulting.com.au From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 18:55:09 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 09:55:09 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> How important is formatting? An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > Hi Guys and Girls. > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > Things which were already in place: > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > once the object is closed and removed). > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > So... > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > Cheers > Darryl > > > > > > Darryl Collins > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > m: +61 418 381 548 > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > e: > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > w: > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Wed Mar 19 19:04:53 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 00:04:53 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <627d73a82cc34b7a81f36cb3b3a70d8b@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Right now these are final finished and polished reports, so the formatting is critical - indeed each sheet is formatted as it is created. The process currently works like this. MS Access call a xlsb code enabled XL template. Once opened the VBA code in XL takes over and does its thing. That 'thing' it does is downloading pre made queries from SQL Server Directly or x-tabs from MS Access and formats them into a final client presentable version. Each imported report is formatted correctly, has colours and formulae added as required et al. Once the import has finished, MS Access takes over again. MS Access saves the xlsb file, converts it to an xlsx format (to strip out all of the code) and resaves it as an xlsb sans any VBA modules (which makes it faster and more responsive than an XLSX format). The only option I can see right now is to move all the logic Access side. As I said, doable, but at a cost. :-/ Have the code in XL makes everything much easier, especially for testing and audit. Loathe to remove it if it can be avoided. Cheers Darryl. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA How important is formatting? An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > Hi Guys and Girls. > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > Things which were already in place: > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > once the object is closed and removed). > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > So... > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > Cheers > Darryl > > > > > > Darryl Collins > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > m: +61 418 381 548 > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > e: > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > w: > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Wed Mar 19 19:13:28 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 00:13:28 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking if I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is fast, stable and agile. It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting this issue. Meh! Cheers Darryl. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA How important is formatting? An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > Hi Guys and Girls. > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > Things which were already in place: > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > once the object is closed and removed). > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > So... > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > Cheers > Darryl > > > > > > Darryl Collins > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > m: +61 418 381 548 > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > e: > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > w: > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 06:55:02 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 07:55:02 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I might try automating a new instance of excel, dropping info there save, close, re-open in 1st instance and cherry pick results. Might do more harm than good, or might save the day. I haven't tried it and am not sure the impact but you did say you were open to new ideas. Alas, no one has hired me in months and I have no big recordsets, although soon my medical bills will be approaching one. BB On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" wrote: > This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to > create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text > file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep > them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. > > This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking if > I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is > fast, stable and agile. > > It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting > this issue. Meh! > > Cheers > Darryl. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA > > How important is formatting? > > An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then > use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. > > On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > > > Hi Guys and Girls. > > > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > > > Things which were already in place: > > > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > > once the object is closed and removed). > > > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > > > So... > > > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > > > Cheers > > Darryl > > > > > > > > > > > > Darryl Collins > > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > > m: +61 418 381 548 > > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > > e: > > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > > w: > > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Thu Mar 20 09:21:13 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:21:13 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Having never coded Access to open an Excel file then the Excel file takes over then Access taking over again i haven't really come across this issue but never had any problems with CopyFromRS either, my thoughts would be that something your opening is being shut down and released from memory correctly which is why them memory usage keeps going up and up, if you could supply the code on or offline and maybe the actual database and excel templates I am off out for an hour, but as I am currently unemployed would be more than happy to take a look for you to see if I can see anything, sometimes a fresh pair of eye will spot something that's been missed. Paul On 20 March 2014 11:55, Bill Benson wrote: > I might try automating a new instance of excel, dropping info there save, > close, re-open in 1st instance and cherry pick results. > > Might do more harm than good, or might save the day. > > I haven't tried it and am not sure the impact but you did say you were open > to new ideas. > > Alas, no one has hired me in months and I have no big recordsets, although > soon my medical bills will be approaching one. > > BB > On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" > > wrote: > > > This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to > > create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text > > file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep > > them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. > > > > This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking > if > > I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is > > fast, stable and agile. > > > > It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting > > this issue. Meh! > > > > Cheers > > Darryl. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > > Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA > > > > How important is formatting? > > > > An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then > > use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. > > > > On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > > > > > Hi Guys and Girls. > > > > > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > > > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > > > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > > > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > > > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > > > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > > > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > > > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > > > > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > > > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > > > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > > > > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > > > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > > > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > > > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > > > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > > > > > Things which were already in place: > > > > > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > > > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > > > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > > > once the object is closed and removed). > > > > > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > > > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > > > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > > > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > > > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > > > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > > > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > > > > > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > > > > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > > > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > > > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > > > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > > > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > > > > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > > > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > > > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > > > > > So... > > > > > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > > > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Darryl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Darryl Collins > > > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > > > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > > > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > > > > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > > > m: +61 418 381 548 > > > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > > > e: > > > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > > > w: > > > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 09:58:04 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:58:04 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: My first response may have missed the fact (?) you were automating Excel from Access? But then again you write that the code modules are in Excel which seems like you are starting from the Excel workbook. But the you would not be writing about shutting down Excel from Access. But then again you write it is an Access FE to a SQL Server BE, so that indicates you are working from Access and automating Excel after all. ??? I am really confused Darryl... Can you clear up your runtime environment and hand offs for my slow brain? On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" wrote: > This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to > create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text > file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep > them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. > > This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking if > I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is > fast, stable and agile. > > It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting > this issue. Meh! > > Cheers > Darryl. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA > > How important is formatting? > > An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then > use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. > > On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: > > > Hi Guys and Girls. > > > > Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped > > into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole > > system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By > > larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in > > a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - > > these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big > > of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). > > The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). > > > > MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data > > is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the > > Access FE that we refer too in this instance. > > > > Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see > > the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with > > an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof > > Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making > > things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. > > > > Things which were already in place: > > > > In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and > > set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help > > (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly > > once the object is closed and removed). > > > > The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the > > reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my > > behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access > > and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick > > up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time > > and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the > > reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... > > > > > > Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): > > > > Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, > > which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I > > copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to > > remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down > > the memory creep, but it is still present. > > > > I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after > > adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow > > down the memory creep, but still no cigar. > > > > So... > > > > Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might > > have missed I am all eyes and ears. > > > > Cheers > > Darryl > > > > > > > > > > > > Darryl Collins > > Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd > > Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd > > Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 > > > > p: +61 3 9898 3242 > > m: +61 418 381 548 > > f: +61 3 9898 1855 > > e: > > darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au > > w: > > www.whittleconsulting.com.au > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 10:04:00 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:04:00 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> I have not followed this thread but I used to work on a spreadsheet I wrote that had the modules for Excel itself inside of the spreadsheet. I would then open the workbook and call code in the spreadsheet. I did this because the sheet was formatted and stuff and then the code was local access / cell references instead of building all that code out in Access. It worked just fine. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/20/2014 10:58 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > My first response may have missed the fact (?) you were automating Excel > from Access? But then again you write that the code modules are in Excel > which seems like you are starting from the Excel workbook. > > But the you would not be writing about shutting down Excel from Access. > > But then again you write it is an Access FE to a SQL Server BE, so that > indicates you are working from Access and automating Excel after all. > > ??? > > I am really confused Darryl... > > Can you clear up your runtime environment and hand offs for my slow brain? > On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" > wrote: > >> This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to >> create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text >> file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep >> them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. >> >> This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking if >> I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is >> fast, stable and agile. >> >> It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting >> this issue. Meh! >> >> Cheers >> Darryl. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: >> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan >> Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA >> >> How important is formatting? >> >> An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then >> use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. >> >> On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys and Girls. >>> >>> Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped >>> into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole >>> system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By >>> larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in >>> a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - >>> these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big >>> of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). >>> The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). >>> >>> MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data >>> is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the >>> Access FE that we refer too in this instance. >>> >>> Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see >>> the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with >>> an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof >>> Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making >>> things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. >>> >>> Things which were already in place: >>> >>> In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and >>> set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help >>> (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly >>> once the object is closed and removed). >>> >>> The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the >>> reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my >>> behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access >>> and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick >>> up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time >>> and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the >>> reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... >>> >>> >>> Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): >>> >>> Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, >>> which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I >>> copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to >>> remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down >>> the memory creep, but it is still present. >>> >>> I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after >>> adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow >>> down the memory creep, but still no cigar. >>> >>> So... >>> >>> Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might >>> have missed I am all eyes and ears. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Darryl >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Darryl Collins >>> Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd >>> Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd >>> Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 >>> >>> p: +61 3 9898 3242 >>> m: +61 418 381 548 >>> f: +61 3 9898 1855 >>> e: >>> darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au>>> w: >>> www.whittleconsulting.com.au >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 12:43:19 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 13:43:19 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah that is what I thought Darryl was saying but then he said he would have to move the modules from excel to accesd, and I got... What was it I got? I am mixed up what I got... oh yeah, confused. On Mar 20, 2014 11:05 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > I have not followed this thread but I used to work on a spreadsheet I > wrote that had the modules for Excel itself inside of the spreadsheet. I > would then open the workbook and call code in the spreadsheet. I did this > because the sheet was formatted and stuff and then the code was local > access / cell references instead of building all that code out in Access. > It worked just fine. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/20/2014 10:58 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> My first response may have missed the fact (?) you were automating Excel >> from Access? But then again you write that the code modules are in Excel >> which seems like you are starting from the Excel workbook. >> >> But the you would not be writing about shutting down Excel from Access. >> >> But then again you write it is an Access FE to a SQL Server BE, so that >> indicates you are working from Access and automating Excel after all. >> >> ??? >> >> I am really confused Darryl... >> >> Can you clear up your runtime environment and hand offs for my slow brain? >> On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" > au> >> wrote: >> >> This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to >>> create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a text >>> file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template to sweep >>> them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. >>> >>> This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up taking >>> if >>> I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the time this thing is >>> fast, stable and agile. >>> >>> It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am hitting >>> this issue. Meh! >>> >>> Cheers >>> Darryl. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: >>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan >>> Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM >>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA >>> >>> How important is formatting? >>> >>> An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and then >>> use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. >>> >>> On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys and Girls. >>>> >>>> Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to bumped >>>> into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up whole >>>> system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger reports. By >>>> larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several hundred times in >>>> a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus rows x 30 columns - >>>> these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all of them are that big >>>> of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). >>>> The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). >>>> >>>> MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the data >>>> is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in the >>>> Access FE that we refer too in this instance. >>>> >>>> Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see >>>> the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies with >>>> an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according to Prof >>>> Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too busy making >>>> things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. >>>> >>>> Things which were already in place: >>>> >>>> In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close and >>>> set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that doesn't help >>>> (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the memory correctly >>>> once the object is closed and removed). >>>> >>>> The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the >>>> reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my >>>> behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access >>>> and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick >>>> up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of time >>>> and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of all the >>>> reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... >>>> >>>> >>>> Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): >>>> >>>> Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function instead, >>>> which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, from where I >>>> copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then use KILL to >>>> remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. That slowed down >>>> the memory creep, but it is still present. >>>> >>>> I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after >>>> adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did slow >>>> down the memory creep, but still no cigar. >>>> >>>> So... >>>> >>>> Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I might >>>> have missed I am all eyes and ears. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Darryl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Darryl Collins >>>> Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd >>>> Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd >>>> Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 >>>> >>>> p: +61 3 9898 3242 >>>> m: +61 418 381 548 >>>> f: +61 3 9898 1855 >>>> e: >>>> darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au>>> >>>>> w: >>>>> >>>> www.whittleconsulting.com.au >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From BradM at blackforestltd.com Thu Mar 20 16:20:25 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:20:25 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 References: Message-ID: All, For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server database that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web guru in another city has designed the website, database, etc. My role has been to simply pull data from this database. Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to add one new table to this existing database. I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access 2007. What is the best way to do this? I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL Server DDL. Thanks, Brad From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Thu Mar 20 16:44:21 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 21:44:21 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Might be a silly question as you may not have the access, but can you not just log onto GoDaddy's control panel, got to the database and add it ? Paul On 20 March 2014 21:20, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server database > that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web guru in another > city has designed the website, database, etc. My role has been to > simply pull data from this database. > > Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to add > one new table to this existing database. > > I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access 2007. > What is the best way to do this? > > I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL Server > DDL. > > Thanks, > Brad > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Thu Mar 20 16:45:00 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:45:00 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 References: Message-ID: Paul, I do not have access to GoDaddy's control panel. I only have access to the GoDaddy database via ODBC (using Access 2007). Thanks, Brad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 4:44 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 Might be a silly question as you may not have the access, but can you not just log onto GoDaddy's control panel, got to the database and add it ? Paul On 20 March 2014 21:20, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server database > that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web guru in > another city has designed the website, database, etc. My role has > been to simply pull data from this database. > > Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to add > one new table to this existing database. > > I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access 2007. > What is the best way to do this? > > I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL > Server DDL. > > Thanks, > Brad > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. Click here to report this message as spam. http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=BB22828FFF.DFB10 From dw-murphy at cox.net Thu Mar 20 17:02:50 2014 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:02:50 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ca01cf4488$226c07e0$674417a0$@cox.net> Depending on which version of SQL Server your Godaddy site is using you could attach to the database using SQL Server Management Studio and create the table through that interface. If your hosting account does not offer that capability you can use the SQL Server interface available through your Godaddy web database management interface. You can get to that by logging into your Godaddy hosting account. I have pretty much moved all the sites we work with away from Godaddy so it has been a couple of years since I have used that interface. In either case you don't have to use DDL. Doug -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:20 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 All, For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server database that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web guru in another city has designed the website, database, etc. My role has been to simply pull data from this database. Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to add one new table to this existing database. I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access 2007. What is the best way to do this? I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL Server DDL. Thanks, Brad -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Thu Mar 20 19:05:17 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 00:05:17 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Hi Bill, The '(Permanently) move the XL code modules into the Access FE from XL' is the last resort option - Doing this would allow me to open a VBA free XL template and do all the heavy lifting / formatting of XL from Access. It would also give me the ability to save, close, reopen and pick up where I left off in the XL file if necessary. But frankly, that is a hell of a lot of dicking around for an issue that only impacts a tiny amount of the output. Looking for a lazier solution. Right now the XL template has code in it which does all of that work. Keeping it native in XL is much nicer - it makes things faster when running, easier when debugging (it can be run and tested independently of any other applications) and also allow XL to talk to both SQL Server and MS Access at the same time. Much of the data come directly from SQL Server and is never seen in the Access FE, but there are a whole series of x-tab reports that I pull in via Access - these seem to be the bothersome bits. There is a known bug that causes memory leaks. XL doesn't release the memory correctly, even though you have closed and set the connection properties to zero. This is only an issue when I am doing hundreds of these in a row - otherwise it is seamless. I have used copyfromRS for years without any problems - it is generally rock solid stable and reliable - this is the first time I have come across any issue. To quote MS: "The memory used by the ADO queries cannot be reclaimed by closing and releasing the ADO objects. The only way to release the memory is to quit Excel". Anyway, I have few other cunning tricks I am going to try out first. Not done with this game yet! Cheers Darryl. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 4:43 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA Yeah that is what I thought Darryl was saying but then he said he would have to move the modules from excel to accesd, and I got... What was it I got? I am mixed up what I got... oh yeah, confused. On Mar 20, 2014 11:05 AM, "John W Colby" wrote: > I have not followed this thread but I used to work on a spreadsheet I > wrote that had the modules for Excel itself inside of the spreadsheet. > I would then open the workbook and call code in the spreadsheet. I > did this because the sheet was formatted and stuff and then the code > was local access / cell references instead of building all that code out in Access. > It worked just fine. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/20/2014 10:58 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > >> My first response may have missed the fact (?) you were automating >> Excel from Access? But then again you write that the code modules are >> in Excel which seems like you are starting from the Excel workbook. >> >> But the you would not be writing about shutting down Excel from Access. >> >> But then again you write it is an Access FE to a SQL Server BE, so >> that indicates you are working from Access and automating Excel after all. >> >> ??? >> >> I am really confused Darryl... >> >> Can you clear up your runtime environment and hand offs for my slow brain? >> On Mar 19, 2014 8:14 PM, "Darryl Collins" > au> >> wrote: >> >> This idea has merit, although I was going to just the INSERT INTO to >>> create all of the exported xtabs as individual files rather than a >>> text file. Once they are all created I can then get the XL template >>> to sweep them up from there and do its formatting and cleaning up etc. >>> >>> This approach is still an option, probably the one I will end up >>> taking if I don't get a better solution. Annoying as 98% of the >>> time this thing is fast, stable and agile. >>> >>> It is only a couple of the most extreme reporting scenarios I am >>> hitting this issue. Meh! >>> >>> Cheers >>> Darryl. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: >>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan >>> Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 10:55 AM >>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA >>> >>> How important is formatting? >>> >>> An alternative could be to dump the data to a tab delimited file and >>> then use Office automation to open/save the file in Excel. >>> >>> On 19 Mar 2014 at 23:18, Darryl Collins wrote: >>> >>> Hi Guys and Girls. >>>> >>>> Never had a problem with CopyFromRS before, but now I seem to >>>> bumped into an issue with Excel bleeding memory until it jams up >>>> whole system. It only happens on the (few and rare) larger >>>> reports. By larger I mean I will be performing CopyFromRS several >>>> hundred times in a row, and some of the RS are large (100K plus >>>> rows x 30 columns - these are x-tabs imported from Access - not all >>>> of them are that big of course virtually none of them will be close to fully populated). >>>> The resulting XL file isn't that big though (maybe 50 MB at the end). >>>> >>>> MS Access is just a FE to a SQL Server Database. Nearly all the >>>> data is in SQL Server and it is really only the x-tabs reports in >>>> the Access FE that we refer too in this instance. >>>> >>>> Watching the performance manager whilst this is running you can see >>>> the memory constantly creeping up until it is full (where XL dies >>>> with an "out of Memory" Error. This is a known issue too according >>>> to Prof Google and Microsoft, but it looks like MS have been too >>>> busy making things look pretty rather than fixing bugs for the last decade or so. >>>> >>>> Things which were already in place: >>>> >>>> In the existing solution, all RS and connections are opened, close >>>> and set to nothing correctly - although according the MS that >>>> doesn't help (as it is part of the problem, XL doesn't release the >>>> memory correctly once the object is closed and removed). >>>> >>>> The only solution MS offer is to close the XL application and the >>>> reopen it. This will require a fair bit of dicking around on my >>>> behalf - mostly moving all of the existing XL code modules into Access >>>> and retweaking them. Then I can close the XL app, reopen it and pick >>>> up from where I left off. Whilst this is doable, it is a lot of >>>> time and effort to fix an issue that only deals with 2% or so of >>>> all the reporting needs we have. Hmmmmm.... >>>> >>>> >>>> Changes I have put in which have helped (so far): >>>> >>>> Replaced all the CopyFromRS code with an INSERT INTO function >>>> instead, which pushes the x-tab data into a new Excel Workbook, >>>> from where I copy it from there to the working XL workbook and then >>>> use KILL to remove the temp XL file created by the INSERT INTO. >>>> That slowed down the memory creep, but it is still present. >>>> >>>> I added in a few regular saves in the process , particularly after >>>> adding in new worksheets. Whilst this slows things down it did >>>> slow down the memory creep, but still no cigar. >>>> >>>> So... >>>> >>>> Open to ideas here. Anyone got anything they can suggest or I >>>> might have missed I am all eyes and ears. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Darryl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Darryl Collins >>>> Whittle Consulting Pty Ltd >>>> Suite 8, 660 Canterbury Rd >>>> Surrey Hills, VIC, 3127 >>>> >>>> p: +61 3 9898 3242 >>>> m: +61 418 381 548 >>>> f: +61 3 9898 1855 >>>> e: >>>> darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au>>> .au >>>> >>>>> w: >>>>> >>>> www.whittleconsulting.com.au >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:08:06 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 21:08:06 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> @Darryl, Win 7 64 bit running Excel 2010 32 bit referencing ADO 6.0. Perhaps this is a case of YMMV as you are fond of writing? I attempted to verify the Excel bug of which you wrote, and instead hit something which might be related, might not - but was not able to detect a memory blowup, and I did try exactly the kind of test which I think should prove or disprove the case, at least as a general rule. Maybe there are some exceptions or special cases. My code is below. While I did not detect a memory leak, or at least total memory usage did not expand and the Excel thread maintained a commit charge of under 50MB, I did however encounter some kind of weird situation regarding connections. After an uncertain number of function calls which assigned the connection object to a variable, VBA went on strike, throwing an runtime error and refusing to make even one more connection. And that despite resetting VBA. I had to restart Excel. In the ADO documentation Microsoft says there cannot be more than 64 connections, but I don't think this is the result of that, because they are not live. But they would support your memory issue statement, if one could argue that it is a different memory at stake than RAM. But I don't know of any other kind of memory which would leak, involving an in process thread, except for RAM. Is there some other kind? As I said, my RAM usage never changes - and I can still put lots of other stuff into VBA, I just can't create any more connections. I would love to know what *IS* causing the unexpected error, but I can live without knowing. CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think - I don't think the Excel issue you are having is driven by that method, but by the connections upper limit perhaps? I was able to use up 4GB of RAM just in calling CopyFromRecordset on that million plus record recordset. But the code I wrote below doesn't call CopyFromRecordset, it just encounters its own problem with connections. This stuff has me quite out of my depth. Doesn't take much. Immediate window last few lines Closed for the 143 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 144 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 145 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 146 time, found 3599988 records Option Explicit Dim m_i_CountRecords As Long Sub StageOne() Const LoopMax = 500 'It won't hit this limit, it will die on my machine Dim i As Long m_i_CountRecords = 0 'Call function to create connection/recordset For i = 1 To LoopMax DealWithDB Debug.Print "Closed for the " & i & " time, found " & m_i_CountRecords & " records" Next End Sub Function DealWithDB() Dim iCount As Long Const MYPATH = "C:\Users\E6530 BILL\Documents\Programming and Consulting\Excel and Access Development\Lew\TestLarge.accdb" Const strProvider = "Provider=Microsoft.Ace.OLEDB.12.0;Data Source=" & MYPATH Dim MyConn As ADODB.Connection Dim MyRst As ADODB.Recordset Set MyConn = New ADODB.Connection Set MyRst = New ADODB.Recordset MyConn.ConnectionString = strProvider MyConn.Open MyRst.Open "Select * from [Sheet2]", MyConn, 1, 1 MyRst.MoveLast m_i_CountRecords = MyRst.RecordCount Cleanup: MyRst.Close Set MyRst = Nothing MyConn.Close Set MyConn = Nothing End Function From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:20:07 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:20:07 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <532B93C7.13510.23844F42@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Create a DDL statement in a pass through query? "CREATE TABLE ...." On 20 Mar 2014 at 16:45, Brad Marks wrote: > Paul, > > I do not have access to GoDaddy's control panel. > > I only have access to the GoDaddy database via ODBC (using Access > 2007). > > Thanks, > Brad > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul > Hartland Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 4:44 PM To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] How to Add a New > Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 > > Might be a silly question as you may not have the access, but can you > not just log onto GoDaddy's control panel, got to the database and add > it ? > > Paul > > > On 20 March 2014 21:20, Brad Marks wrote: > > > All, > > > > For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server > > database that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web > > guru in another city has designed the website, database, etc. My > > role has been to simply pull data from this database. > > > > Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to > > add one new table to this existing database. > > > > I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access > 2007. > > What is the best way to do this? > > > > I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL > > Server DDL. > > > > Thanks, > > Brad > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. > Click here to report this message as spam. > http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=BB22828FFF.DFB10 > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Thu Mar 20 20:32:37 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 01:32:37 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: " CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think" Hehehehe.... You are onto my 'cunning plan #1". I am going to try a DAO RS for this and see what happens. I can definitely see XL memory useage getting fatter and fatter on the performance resource monitor. It is over 2GB RAM when it usually craps out. This is way OVER what it usually is and should be. The Memory Usage history line creeps up and up and up until it bugs out. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA @Darryl, Win 7 64 bit running Excel 2010 32 bit referencing ADO 6.0. Perhaps this is a case of YMMV as you are fond of writing? I attempted to verify the Excel bug of which you wrote, and instead hit something which might be related, might not - but was not able to detect a memory blowup, and I did try exactly the kind of test which I think should prove or disprove the case, at least as a general rule. Maybe there are some exceptions or special cases. My code is below. While I did not detect a memory leak, or at least total memory usage did not expand and the Excel thread maintained a commit charge of under 50MB, I did however encounter some kind of weird situation regarding connections. After an uncertain number of function calls which assigned the connection object to a variable, VBA went on strike, throwing an runtime error and refusing to make even one more connection. And that despite resetting VBA. I had to restart Excel. In the ADO documentation Microsoft says there cannot be more than 64 connections, but I don't think this is the result of that, because they are not live. But they would support your memory issue statement, if one could argue that it is a different memory at stake than RAM. But I don't know of any other kind of memory which would leak, involving an in process thread, except for RAM. Is there some other kind? As I said, my RAM usage never changes - and I can still put lots of other stuff into VBA, I just can't create any more connections. I would love to know what *IS* causing the unexpected error, but I can live without knowing. CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think - I don't think the Excel issue you are having is driven by that method, but by the connections upper limit perhaps? I was able to use up 4GB of RAM just in calling CopyFromRecordset on that million plus record recordset. But the code I wrote below doesn't call CopyFromRecordset, it just encounters its own problem with connections. This stuff has me quite out of my depth. Doesn't take much. Immediate window last few lines Closed for the 143 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 144 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 145 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 146 time, found 3599988 records Option Explicit Dim m_i_CountRecords As Long Sub StageOne() Const LoopMax = 500 'It won't hit this limit, it will die on my machine Dim i As Long m_i_CountRecords = 0 'Call function to create connection/recordset For i = 1 To LoopMax DealWithDB Debug.Print "Closed for the " & i & " time, found " & m_i_CountRecords & " records" Next End Sub Function DealWithDB() Dim iCount As Long Const MYPATH = "C:\Users\E6530 BILL\Documents\Programming and Consulting\Excel and Access Development\Lew\TestLarge.accdb" Const strProvider = "Provider=Microsoft.Ace.OLEDB.12.0;Data Source=" & MYPATH Dim MyConn As ADODB.Connection Dim MyRst As ADODB.Recordset Set MyConn = New ADODB.Connection Set MyRst = New ADODB.Recordset MyConn.ConnectionString = strProvider MyConn.Open MyRst.Open "Select * from [Sheet2]", MyConn, 1, 1 MyRst.MoveLast m_i_CountRecords = MyRst.RecordCount Cleanup: MyRst.Close Set MyRst = Nothing MyConn.Close Set MyConn = Nothing End Function -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From vbacreations at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:42:01 2014 From: vbacreations at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 21:42:01 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02b401cf44a6$c2798f00$476cad00$@gmail.com> Well, substitute your favorite database in MY code and watch it... see if it has to do with your implementation. Cuz it sure ain't happening here! Bill out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Collins Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:33 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA " CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think" Hehehehe.... You are onto my 'cunning plan #1". I am going to try a DAO RS for this and see what happens. I can definitely see XL memory useage getting fatter and fatter on the performance resource monitor. It is over 2GB RAM when it usually craps out. This is way OVER what it usually is and should be. The Memory Usage history line creeps up and up and up until it bugs out. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA @Darryl, Win 7 64 bit running Excel 2010 32 bit referencing ADO 6.0. Perhaps this is a case of YMMV as you are fond of writing? I attempted to verify the Excel bug of which you wrote, and instead hit something which might be related, might not - but was not able to detect a memory blowup, and I did try exactly the kind of test which I think should prove or disprove the case, at least as a general rule. Maybe there are some exceptions or special cases. My code is below. While I did not detect a memory leak, or at least total memory usage did not expand and the Excel thread maintained a commit charge of under 50MB, I did however encounter some kind of weird situation regarding connections. After an uncertain number of function calls which assigned the connection object to a variable, VBA went on strike, throwing an runtime error and refusing to make even one more connection. And that despite resetting VBA. I had to restart Excel. In the ADO documentation Microsoft says there cannot be more than 64 connections, but I don't think this is the result of that, because they are not live. But they would support your memory issue statement, if one could argue that it is a different memory at stake than RAM. But I don't know of any other kind of memory which would leak, involving an in process thread, except for RAM. Is there some other kind? As I said, my RAM usage never changes - and I can still put lots of other stuff into VBA, I just can't create any more connections. I would love to know what *IS* causing the unexpected error, but I can live without knowing. CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think - I don't think the Excel issue you are having is driven by that method, but by the connections upper limit perhaps? I was able to use up 4GB of RAM just in calling CopyFromRecordset on that million plus record recordset. But the code I wrote below doesn't call CopyFromRecordset, it just encounters its own problem with connections. This stuff has me quite out of my depth. Doesn't take much. Immediate window last few lines Closed for the 143 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 144 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 145 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 146 time, found 3599988 records Option Explicit Dim m_i_CountRecords As Long Sub StageOne() Const LoopMax = 500 'It won't hit this limit, it will die on my machine Dim i As Long m_i_CountRecords = 0 'Call function to create connection/recordset For i = 1 To LoopMax DealWithDB Debug.Print "Closed for the " & i & " time, found " & m_i_CountRecords & " records" Next End Sub Function DealWithDB() Dim iCount As Long Const MYPATH = "C:\Users\E6530 BILL\Documents\Programming and Consulting\Excel and Access Development\Lew\TestLarge.accdb" Const strProvider = "Provider=Microsoft.Ace.OLEDB.12.0;Data Source=" & MYPATH Dim MyConn As ADODB.Connection Dim MyRst As ADODB.Recordset Set MyConn = New ADODB.Connection Set MyRst = New ADODB.Recordset MyConn.ConnectionString = strProvider MyConn.Open MyRst.Open "Select * from [Sheet2]", MyConn, 1, 1 MyRst.MoveLast m_i_CountRecords = MyRst.RecordCount Cleanup: MyRst.Close Set MyRst = Nothing MyConn.Close Set MyConn = Nothing End Function -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Thu Mar 20 21:00:52 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 02:00:52 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <02b401cf44a6$c2798f00$476cad00$@gmail.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> <02b401cf44a6$c2798f00$476cad00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1147dbe16d5b4c6dadb016d3165356fb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Ok... But I am going the other way. Excel is pulling the data from Access. Not sure if that makes a difference or not... -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:42 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA Well, substitute your favorite database in MY code and watch it... see if it has to do with your implementation. Cuz it sure ain't happening here! Bill out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Collins Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:33 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA " CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think" Hehehehe.... You are onto my 'cunning plan #1". I am going to try a DAO RS for this and see what happens. I can definitely see XL memory useage getting fatter and fatter on the performance resource monitor. It is over 2GB RAM when it usually craps out. This is way OVER what it usually is and should be. The Memory Usage history line creeps up and up and up until it bugs out. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA @Darryl, Win 7 64 bit running Excel 2010 32 bit referencing ADO 6.0. Perhaps this is a case of YMMV as you are fond of writing? I attempted to verify the Excel bug of which you wrote, and instead hit something which might be related, might not - but was not able to detect a memory blowup, and I did try exactly the kind of test which I think should prove or disprove the case, at least as a general rule. Maybe there are some exceptions or special cases. My code is below. While I did not detect a memory leak, or at least total memory usage did not expand and the Excel thread maintained a commit charge of under 50MB, I did however encounter some kind of weird situation regarding connections. After an uncertain number of function calls which assigned the connection object to a variable, VBA went on strike, throwing an runtime error and refusing to make even one more connection. And that despite resetting VBA. I had to restart Excel. In the ADO documentation Microsoft says there cannot be more than 64 connections, but I don't think this is the result of that, because they are not live. But they would support your memory issue statement, if one could argue that it is a different memory at stake than RAM. But I don't know of any other kind of memory which would leak, involving an in process thread, except for RAM. Is there some other kind? As I said, my RAM usage never changes - and I can still put lots of other stuff into VBA, I just can't create any more connections. I would love to know what *IS* causing the unexpected error, but I can live without knowing. CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think - I don't think the Excel issue you are having is driven by that method, but by the connections upper limit perhaps? I was able to use up 4GB of RAM just in calling CopyFromRecordset on that million plus record recordset. But the code I wrote below doesn't call CopyFromRecordset, it just encounters its own problem with connections. This stuff has me quite out of my depth. Doesn't take much. Immediate window last few lines Closed for the 143 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 144 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 145 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 146 time, found 3599988 records Option Explicit Dim m_i_CountRecords As Long Sub StageOne() Const LoopMax = 500 'It won't hit this limit, it will die on my machine Dim i As Long m_i_CountRecords = 0 'Call function to create connection/recordset For i = 1 To LoopMax DealWithDB Debug.Print "Closed for the " & i & " time, found " & m_i_CountRecords & " records" Next End Sub Function DealWithDB() Dim iCount As Long Const MYPATH = "C:\Users\E6530 BILL\Documents\Programming and Consulting\Excel and Access Development\Lew\TestLarge.accdb" Const strProvider = "Provider=Microsoft.Ace.OLEDB.12.0;Data Source=" & MYPATH Dim MyConn As ADODB.Connection Dim MyRst As ADODB.Recordset Set MyConn = New ADODB.Connection Set MyRst = New ADODB.Recordset MyConn.ConnectionString = strProvider MyConn.Open MyRst.Open "Select * from [Sheet2]", MyConn, 1, 1 MyRst.MoveLast m_i_CountRecords = MyRst.RecordCount Cleanup: MyRst.Close Set MyRst = Nothing MyConn.Close Set MyConn = Nothing End Function -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 21:05:07 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 22:05:07 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA In-Reply-To: <1147dbe16d5b4c6dadb016d3165356fb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <0819d768ff4e4f6a8acc3f8e8d616cd1@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532A2E5D.19098.1E102BCE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <94dd9830c4a2433790c19dffc628fd2d@HKNPR04MB178.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <532B0360.6030906@gmail.com> <74afabba5c64403295d85b11bf0dfccb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> <00dd01cf44a2$0595fc60$10c1f520$@gmail.com> <02b401cf44a6$c2798f00$476cad00$@gmail.com> <1147dbe16d5b4c6dadb016d3165356fb@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <02fb01cf44a9$fc2727a0$f47576e0$@gmail.com> I am pulling the data from access into Excel in the code I wrote. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Collins Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:01 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA Ok... But I am going the other way. Excel is pulling the data from Access. Not sure if that makes a difference or not... -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:42 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA Well, substitute your favorite database in MY code and watch it... see if it has to do with your implementation. Cuz it sure ain't happening here! Bill out! -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Collins Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:33 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA " CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think" Hehehehe.... You are onto my 'cunning plan #1". I am going to try a DAO RS for this and see what happens. I can definitely see XL memory useage getting fatter and fatter on the performance resource monitor. It is over 2GB RAM when it usually craps out. This is way OVER what it usually is and should be. The Memory Usage history line creeps up and up and up until it bugs out. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, 21 March 2014 12:08 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] CopyFromRS memory Leak in Excel VBA @Darryl, Win 7 64 bit running Excel 2010 32 bit referencing ADO 6.0. Perhaps this is a case of YMMV as you are fond of writing? I attempted to verify the Excel bug of which you wrote, and instead hit something which might be related, might not - but was not able to detect a memory blowup, and I did try exactly the kind of test which I think should prove or disprove the case, at least as a general rule. Maybe there are some exceptions or special cases. My code is below. While I did not detect a memory leak, or at least total memory usage did not expand and the Excel thread maintained a commit charge of under 50MB, I did however encounter some kind of weird situation regarding connections. After an uncertain number of function calls which assigned the connection object to a variable, VBA went on strike, throwing an runtime error and refusing to make even one more connection. And that despite resetting VBA. I had to restart Excel. In the ADO documentation Microsoft says there cannot be more than 64 connections, but I don't think this is the result of that, because they are not live. But they would support your memory issue statement, if one could argue that it is a different memory at stake than RAM. But I don't know of any other kind of memory which would leak, involving an in process thread, except for RAM. Is there some other kind? As I said, my RAM usage never changes - and I can still put lots of other stuff into VBA, I just can't create any more connections. I would love to know what *IS* causing the unexpected error, but I can live without knowing. CopyFromRecordset is not a method which is limited to ADO I don't think - I don't think the Excel issue you are having is driven by that method, but by the connections upper limit perhaps? I was able to use up 4GB of RAM just in calling CopyFromRecordset on that million plus record recordset. But the code I wrote below doesn't call CopyFromRecordset, it just encounters its own problem with connections. This stuff has me quite out of my depth. Doesn't take much. Immediate window last few lines Closed for the 143 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 144 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 145 time, found 3599988 records Closed for the 146 time, found 3599988 records Option Explicit Dim m_i_CountRecords As Long Sub StageOne() Const LoopMax = 500 'It won't hit this limit, it will die on my machine Dim i As Long m_i_CountRecords = 0 'Call function to create connection/recordset For i = 1 To LoopMax DealWithDB Debug.Print "Closed for the " & i & " time, found " & m_i_CountRecords & " records" Next End Sub Function DealWithDB() Dim iCount As Long Const MYPATH = "C:\Users\E6530 BILL\Documents\Programming and Consulting\Excel and Access Development\Lew\TestLarge.accdb" Const strProvider = "Provider=Microsoft.Ace.OLEDB.12.0;Data Source=" & MYPATH Dim MyConn As ADODB.Connection Dim MyRst As ADODB.Recordset Set MyConn = New ADODB.Connection Set MyRst = New ADODB.Recordset MyConn.ConnectionString = strProvider MyConn.Open MyRst.Open "Select * from [Sheet2]", MyConn, 1, 1 MyRst.MoveLast m_i_CountRecords = MyRst.RecordCount Cleanup: MyRst.Close Set MyRst = Nothing MyConn.Close Set MyConn = Nothing End Function -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Thu Mar 20 22:52:00 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 03:52:00 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using ODBC and Access 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brad, In that case try something like below: yourdbconn.ExecuteSQL.("CREATE TABLE tablename (field1 nvarchar(50)" ", field2 int)"); and so on for your fields. Paul On 20 March 2014 21:45, Brad Marks wrote: > Paul, > > I do not have access to GoDaddy's control panel. > > I only have access to the GoDaddy database via ODBC (using Access 2007). > > Thanks, > Brad > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 4:44 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] How to Add a New Microsoft SQL Server Table using > ODBC and Access 2007 > > Might be a silly question as you may not have the access, but can you > not just log onto GoDaddy's control panel, got to the database and add > it ? > > Paul > > > On 20 March 2014 21:20, Brad Marks wrote: > > > All, > > > > For several years, I have worked with a Microsoft SQL Server database > > that is tied to our website (Hosted by GoDaddy). A web guru in > > another city has designed the website, database, etc. My role has > > been to simply pull data from this database. > > > > Now, as part of some "Back Office streamlining", we would like to add > > one new table to this existing database. > > > > I have never added a new table to Microsoft SQL Server from Access > 2007. > > What is the best way to do this? > > > > I have worked with IBM's DB2 DDL in a prior life but not with SQL > > Server DDL. > > > > Thanks, > > Brad > > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. > Click here to report this message as spam. > http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=BB22828FFF.DFB10 > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 06:58:00 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 07:58:00 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I would cross post here. Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) are showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > SELECT > > A.[Company Name], > A.[Company Mail Address], > A.[Company Physical Address], > A.[Company Account Email], > A.[Company Phones], > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > FROM > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > ON > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > GROUP BY > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company Physical Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company Website], A.Notes; From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 21 07:10:12 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:10:12 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for your memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem grouping by memo fields. Paul On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I > would cross post here. > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) are > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > > > SELECT > > > > A.[Company Name], > > A.[Company Mail Address], > > A.[Company Physical Address], > > A.[Company Account Email], > > A.[Company Phones], > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > > > FROM > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > > > ON > > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > > > GROUP BY > > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company Physical > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > Website], A.Notes; > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 07:53:29 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:53:29 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with syntax in group by field. On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" wrote: > Bill, > > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for your > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem grouping > by memo fields. > > Paul > > > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I > > would cross post here. > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) are > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > > > > > SELECT > > > > > > A.[Company Name], > > > A.[Company Mail Address], > > > A.[Company Physical Address], > > > A.[Company Account Email], > > > A.[Company Phones], > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > > > > > FROM > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > > > > > ON > > > > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > > > > > GROUP BY > > > > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company Physical > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > > Website], A.Notes; > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 21 08:05:52 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:05:52 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I couldn't remember why I thought of that so I done a search, and this website rings a bell for me from a while back when I had a similar problem, im sure it worked... http://allenbrowne.com/bug-18.html Paul On 21 March 2014 12:53, Bill Benson wrote: > Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with > syntax in group by field. > On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" > wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for > your > > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem > grouping > > by memo fields. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > > > > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I > > > would cross post here. > > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) > are > > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > > > > > > > SELECT > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], > > > > A.[Company Mail Address], > > > > A.[Company Physical Address], > > > > A.[Company Account Email], > > > > A.[Company Phones], > > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > > > > > > > FROM > > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > > > > > > > ON > > > > > > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > > > > > > > GROUP BY > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company > Physical > > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > > > Website], A.Notes; > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Hartland > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Fri Mar 21 08:08:35 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:08:35 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Found a microsoft page with the same : http://support.microsoft.com/kb/889490 Paul On 21 March 2014 13:05, Paul Hartland wrote: > I couldn't remember why I thought of that so I done a search, and this > website rings a bell for me from a while back when I had a similar problem, > im sure it worked... > > http://allenbrowne.com/bug-18.html > > Paul > > > On 21 March 2014 12:53, Bill Benson wrote: > >> Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with >> syntax in group by field. >> On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" >> wrote: >> >> > Bill, >> > >> > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for >> your >> > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem >> grouping >> > by memo fields. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: >> > >> > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I >> > > would cross post here. >> > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) >> are >> > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? >> > > > >> > > > SELECT >> > > > >> > > > A.[Company Name], >> > > > A.[Company Mail Address], >> > > > A.[Company Physical Address], >> > > > A.[Company Account Email], >> > > > A.[Company Phones], >> > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes >> > > > >> > > > FROM >> > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A >> > > > >> > > > ON >> > > > >> > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] >> > > > >> > > > GROUP BY >> > > > >> > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company >> Physical >> > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company >> > > Website], A.Notes; >> > > -- >> > > AccessD mailing list >> > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Paul Hartland >> > paul.hartland at googlemail.com >> > -- >> > AccessD mailing list >> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 08:49:50 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 06:49:50 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, First is also a grouping option in SQL. Rather than grouping by the memo field, you're selecting the first memo field that comes up as a result of groupings ahead of it. Otherwise, you get into the truncation that messes up queries with memo fields. Charlotte On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with > syntax in group by field. > On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" > wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for > your > > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem > grouping > > by memo fields. > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > > > > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I > > > would cross post here. > > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) > are > > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > > > > > > > SELECT > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], > > > > A.[Company Mail Address], > > > > A.[Company Physical Address], > > > > A.[Company Account Email], > > > > A.[Company Phones], > > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > > > > > > > FROM > > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > > > > > > > ON > > > > > > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > > > > > > > GROUP BY > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company > Physical > > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > > > Website], A.Notes; > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Hartland > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 08:50:46 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:50:46 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is so interesting. Microsoft has a bug in an implementation of something only Microsoft has (memo fields) and it is fixed by an aggregation only Microsoft has, and further it is confirmed that the fix is faster and cures the other inherent limitation of memo fields (<=256) This isn't horses for courses it is course for horses... Well thank you for your digging, I should have performed a better search. Howe er, we talk about so little Access related stuff here I figured no harm done even if it were a well traversed course or a worn out horse. On Mar 21, 2014 9:10 AM, "Paul Hartland" wrote: > Bill, > > Found a microsoft page with the same : > > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/889490 > > Paul > > > On 21 March 2014 13:05, Paul Hartland > wrote: > > > I couldn't remember why I thought of that so I done a search, and this > > website rings a bell for me from a while back when I had a similar > problem, > > im sure it worked... > > > > http://allenbrowne.com/bug-18.html > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 21 March 2014 12:53, Bill Benson wrote: > > > >> Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with > >> syntax in group by field. > >> On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Bill, > >> > > >> > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for > >> your > >> > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem > >> grouping > >> > by memo fields. > >> > > >> > Paul > >> > > >> > > >> > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > >> > > >> > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me > thought I > >> > > would cross post here. > >> > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) > >> are > >> > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > >> > > > > >> > > > SELECT > >> > > > > >> > > > A.[Company Name], > >> > > > A.[Company Mail Address], > >> > > > A.[Company Physical Address], > >> > > > A.[Company Account Email], > >> > > > A.[Company Phones], > >> > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > >> > > > > >> > > > FROM > >> > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > >> > > > > >> > > > ON > >> > > > > >> > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > >> > > > > >> > > > GROUP BY > >> > > > > >> > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company > >> Physical > >> > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > >> > > Website], A.Notes; > >> > > -- > >> > > AccessD mailing list > >> > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >> > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >> > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Paul Hartland > >> > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > >> > -- > >> > AccessD mailing list > >> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > >> -- > >> AccessD mailing list > >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Hartland > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 09:04:33 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:04:33 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will understand this better when I get the change into Access, I am not near a computer. Seems like this would not work in another platform where FIRST is not available. I also might try the indexing suggestion which Allan Browne mentioned. Thank you Charlotte and Paul. So nice to be be around you all here. On Mar 21, 2014 9:51 AM, "Charlotte Foust" wrote: > Bill, > > First is also a grouping option in SQL. Rather than grouping by the memo > field, you're selecting the first memo field that comes up as a result of > groupings ahead of it. Otherwise, you get into the truncation that messes > up queries with memo fields. > > Charlotte > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Bill Benson > wrote: > > > Isn't first something one puts in the select clause? Not familiar with > > syntax in group by field. > > On Mar 21, 2014 8:11 AM, "Paul Hartland" > > wrote: > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Try going to your query in design view and changing the total row for > > your > > > memo fields from GROUP BY to FIRST, access has a bit of a problem > > grouping > > > by memo fields. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > On 21 March 2014 11:58, Bill Benson wrote: > > > > > > > I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought > I > > > > would cross post here. > > > > Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) > > are > > > > showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > > > > > > > > > SELECT > > > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], > > > > > A.[Company Mail Address], > > > > > A.[Company Physical Address], > > > > > A.[Company Account Email], > > > > > A.[Company Phones], > > > > > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > > > > > > > > > FROM > > > > > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > > > > > > > > > ON > > > > > > > > > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > > > > > > > > > GROUP BY > > > > > > > > > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company > > Physical > > > > Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company > > > > Website], A.Notes; > > > > -- > > > > AccessD mailing list > > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Paul Hartland > > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From fuller.artful at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 09:16:44 2014 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:16:44 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Charlotte (et. al.), Slight change to what you wrote: FIRST is not a grouping option in SQL; it's Access-specific. IN MS-SQL it's TOP [n[/%]]. In MySQL and MariaDB it's LIMIT [n]. Arthur From garykjos at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 09:23:11 2014 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 09:23:11 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oracle SQL has First and Last as aggregate functions. GK On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Charlotte (et. al.), > > Slight change to what you wrote: FIRST is not a grouping option in SQL; > it's Access-specific. IN MS-SQL it's TOP [n[/%]]. In MySQL and MariaDB it's > LIMIT [n]. > > Arthur > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From Lambert.Heenan at aig.com Fri Mar 21 09:29:30 2014 From: Lambert.Heenan at aig.com (Heenan, Lambert) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 10:29:30 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rory Archibald responded on Access-L. He said... My guess: http://allenbrowne.com/bug-18.html Lambert -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:58 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I would cross post here. Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) are showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > SELECT > > A.[Company Name], > A.[Company Mail Address], > A.[Company Physical Address], > A.[Company Account Email], > A.[Company Phones], > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > FROM > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > ON > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > GROUP BY > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company Physical Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company Website], A.Notes; -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 10:31:05 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:31:05 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] FW: Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <098e01cf451a$94e18e70$bea4ab50$@gmail.com> Nothing has come to my in-box on Access-L since I wrote asking on Mar 19,. Thanks for letting me know, I looked into it and apparently some setting for DIGEST. I have amended it but it is too late now to see what might have come my way, I always delete the digest. > QUERY ACCESS-L Subscription options for Bill Benson , list ACCESS-L: DIGEST You receive list digests, rather than individual postings FULLHDR Full (normal) mail headers NOREPRO You do not receive a copy of your own postings ACK Short e-mail acknowledgement of successfully processed postings NOFILE You do not receive a copy of NJE files sent to the list Subscription date: 26 Feb 2014 -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Heenan, Lambert Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:30 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields Rory Archibald responded on Access-L. He said... My guess: http://allenbrowne.com/bug-18.html Lambert -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:58 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields I asked this twice on Access L but as no one is answering me thought I would cross post here. Can someone tell me why my memo fields (mail addr, phys addr, notes) are showing garbage in the query output but fine in the table? > > SELECT > > A.[Company Name], > A.[Company Mail Address], > A.[Company Physical Address], > A.[Company Account Email], > A.[Company Phones], > A.[Company Website], A.Notes > > FROM > [001 Company] INNER JOIN [001 Company Reminders] as A > > ON > > [001 Company].[Company Name] = A.[Company Name] > > GROUP BY > > A.[Company Name], A.[Company Mail Address], A.[Company Physical Address], A.[Company Account Email], A.[Company Phones], A.[Company Website], A.Notes; -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From erbachs at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 13:25:48 2014 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:25:48 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] MySQL setup In-Reply-To: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> References: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> Message-ID: ...and download Keepass for your passwords! gdartttgiasf [grinning, ducking, and running through the tall grass in a serpentine fashion] -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 10:27 AM, John W Colby wrote: > I installed MariaDB a month or so ago, as well as HeidiSQL FE. Now I > cannot remember my password or find any notes about doing the install etc. > > I really need to get this thing set up and running. Do I need to > uninstall and reinstall or is there an easier way? I go to places like: > > https://mariadb.com/kb/en/installing-mariadb-with-the-rpm-tool/ > > And it looks as if the whole thing is written for Linux users which really > doesn't help me. > > Is anyone working with this on Windows 7? > > -- > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 13:54:56 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:54:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] MySQL setup In-Reply-To: References: <532865F8.6010607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532C8B00.3070209@gmail.com> LOL. I use Lastpass for all of my browser based passwords. I think I didn't use it yet at the time that I set MariaDB up. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/21/2014 2:25 PM, Steve Erbach wrote: > ...and download Keepass for your passwords! > > gdartttgiasf [grinning, ducking, and running through the tall grass in a > serpentine fashion] > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Fri Mar 21 15:21:06 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 06:21:06 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: Memo fields In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <532C9F32.12626.2798EA3E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Top and Limit are not the same as Fisrt. Those two restrict the number of recordsreturned, regardless of the content of any particular field. An alternative in earleir versions of T-SQL would be to use Min or Max to achieve the same result. But now TSQL 2012 has First_Value.... OVER (PARTITION BY...) (same as MySQL). On 21 Mar 2014 at 10:16, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Charlotte (et. al.), > > Slight change to what you wrote: FIRST is not a grouping option in > SQL; it's Access-specific. IN MS-SQL it's TOP [n[/%]]. In MySQL and > MariaDB it's LIMIT [n]. > > Arthur > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From actebs at actebs.com.au Sat Mar 22 09:18:44 2014 From: actebs at actebs.com.au (ACTEBS) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 01:18:44 +1100 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Message-ID: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> Hi Group, Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been made in an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and combo boxes. I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any field and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, once saved, an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the user can add a new record. Tanks in advance. Vlad From jackandpat.d at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 09:22:45 2014 From: jackandpat.d at gmail.com (jack drawbridge) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:22:45 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: I think If Me.Dirty will check if there has been a change. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/ff194309%28v=office.15%29.aspx On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:18 AM, ACTEBS wrote: > Hi Group, > > > > Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been made > in > an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and combo boxes. > > > > I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any field > and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, once > saved, > an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the user can add a > new > record. > > > > Tanks in advance. > > > > Vlad > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 22 09:34:27 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 14:34:27 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Vlad When you have filled the controls, create a Collection of the Controls' values by looping these and add them if they are textboxes or checkboxes. To check for changes, loop the Collection and compare with the Value property of the controls. To reset, loop the controls and if they are textboxes or checkboxes set Value to Null. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af ACTEBS Sendt: 22. marts 2014 15:18 Til: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Emne: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Group, Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been made in an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and combo boxes. I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any field and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, once saved, an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the user can add a new record. Tanks in advance. Vlad From actebs at actebs.com.au Sat Mar 22 09:59:14 2014 From: actebs at actebs.com.au (ACTEBS) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 01:59:14 +1100 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: <000501cf45df$4a1ad610$de508230$@actebs.com.au> Hi Jack, I think that only works for bound forms. I am using an unbound form. Thanks anyway... Vlad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jack drawbridge Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2014 1:23 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes I think If Me.Dirty will check if there has been a change. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/office/ff194309%28v=office.15%29.asp x On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:18 AM, ACTEBS wrote: > Hi Group, > > > > Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been > made in an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and > combo boxes. > > > > I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any > field and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, > once saved, an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the > user can add a new record. > > > > Tanks in advance. > > > > Vlad > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From actebs at actebs.com.au Sat Mar 22 10:01:02 2014 From: actebs at actebs.com.au (ACTEBS) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 02:01:02 +1100 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> Hi Gustav, Can you give me an example of the collection and value of the controls please? It's 2am here, I'm off to bed. Thanks everyone for your help. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow... Thanks Vlad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2014 1:34 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Vlad When you have filled the controls, create a Collection of the Controls' values by looping these and add them if they are textboxes or checkboxes. To check for changes, loop the Collection and compare with the Value property of the controls. To reset, loop the controls and if they are textboxes or checkboxes set Value to Null. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af ACTEBS Sendt: 22. marts 2014 15:18 Til: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Emne: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Group, Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been made in an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and combo boxes. I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any field and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, once saved, an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the user can add a new record. Tanks in advance. Vlad -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 22 10:04:16 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:04:16 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: Hi Vlad Use the index or name of the control as the key in the Collection. Should be pretty easy. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af ACTEBS Sendt: 22. marts 2014 16:01 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Gustav, Can you give me an example of the collection and value of the controls please? It's 2am here, I'm off to bed. Thanks everyone for your help. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow... Thanks Vlad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Sunday, 23 March 2014 1:34 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Vlad When you have filled the controls, create a Collection of the Controls' values by looping these and add them if they are textboxes or checkboxes. To check for changes, loop the Collection and compare with the Value property of the controls. To reset, loop the controls and if they are textboxes or checkboxes set Value to Null. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af ACTEBS Sendt: 22. marts 2014 15:18 Til: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Emne: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi Group, Looking for an elegant way of checking whether any changes have been made in an unbound form. This form has mixture of about 150 text and combo boxes. I'd like to be able to check whether the user has made changes to any field and if so prompt and ask if they want to save the changes. Also, once saved, an elegant way to clear all the values in the form so the user can add a new record. Tanks in advance. Vlad From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 18:04:58 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:04:58 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. 'Warning air code!!! Option explicit Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String Form_Load() For each ctrl in controls If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then m_Initial_Control_Values = _ m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" End If Next '... End Sub Have a function named FormChanged Function FormChanged() as Boolean Dim strValidate as string For each ctrl in controls If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then strValidate = _ strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" End If Next FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:02:20 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 21:02:20 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the > form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY > controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a > possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you > won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a > runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe > separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) > End function > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:06:44 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 21:06:44 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. It doesn't care if a control's old value equaled its new value, it cares if any combination of values change... period. Which means that it doesn't worry about storing any control's old value. It records the lot on form load, and tests it whenever you want. I see no benefit to class in this context unless you need more from the class later. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the > form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY > controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a > possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you > won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a > runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe > separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) > End function > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:11:06 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 21:11:06 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02f501cf46fd$f0280ae0$d07820a0$@gmail.com> I should clarify too, Form load is not where to do this, it is whenever the unbound controls are populated - presumably there are routines that populate controls from recordsets, etc... as obviously on form load for unbound controls, everything changes from null to something (if populated)... Bill -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:07 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. It doesn't care if a control's old value equaled its new value, it cares if any combination of values change... period. Which means that it doesn't worry about storing any control's old value. It records the lot on form load, and tests it whenever you want. I see no benefit to class in this context unless you need more from the class later. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the > form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY > controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a > possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you > won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a > runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe > separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) > End function > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 20:54:51 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 21:54:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single location, wrapping behaviors and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered code to hell and back to handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to handle that? In the form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S properties and events. Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control that it contains. And anything else you want to stuff there!!! If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and their cars and their invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you create a table for each item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In programming, I (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" way of doing programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is supposed to model one object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific form, NOT a bajillion other things as well. Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming experience, ALLOWS you to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, but that does not make it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced professionals, we need to learn how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to encapsulate the behaviors of a text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access programming. It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize and encapsulate the behaviors you are trying to implement. An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap into the form's module for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the next form. An unbound form needs to: 0) Connect to a data source. 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) 2) Disconnect from the data source. 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio buttons. 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. 5) connect to a data source. 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. 7) HANDLE edit collisions. 8) Disconnect from the data source. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. How do you discover that? How do you handle that? The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it back. The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF THIS STUFF for you when you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all this (and more). I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not handling ANY of this. And the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making changes which just "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes went!!!! So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I (personally) am VERY uneasy throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of the solutions I have seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the controls, watch the controls for changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit collisions. EVERY FORM had MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of paper. Can you say "CRAP PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice programming. So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do this correctly) in each and every form of YOUR solution? I am not. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave > returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:12:38 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 22:12:38 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <038b01cf4706$88813a20$9983ae60$@gmail.com> No argument. I was trying to get the user over a small hump: http://goo.gl/y1jb6P You want to help them build: http://goo.gl/yrudv9 Oh well, once a rocket scientist, always a rocket scientist. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:55 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single location, wrapping behaviors and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered code to hell and back to handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to handle that? In the form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S properties and events. Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control that it contains. And anything else you want to stuff there!!! If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and their cars and their invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you create a table for each item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In programming, I (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" way of doing programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is supposed to model one object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific form, NOT a bajillion other things as well. Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming experience, ALLOWS you to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, but that does not make it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced professionals, we need to learn how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to encapsulate the behaviors of a text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access programming. It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize and encapsulate the behaviors you are trying to implement. An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap into the form's module for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the next form. An unbound form needs to: 0) Connect to a data source. 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) 2) Disconnect from the data source. 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio buttons. 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. 5) connect to a data source. 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. 7) HANDLE edit collisions. 8) Disconnect from the data source. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. How do you discover that? How do you handle that? The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it back. The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF THIS STUFF for you when you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all this (and more). I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not handling ANY of this. And the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making changes which just "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes went!!!! So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I (personally) am VERY uneasy throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of the solutions I have seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the controls, watch the controls for changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit collisions. EVERY FORM had MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of paper. Can you say "CRAP PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice programming. So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do this correctly) in each and every form of YOUR solution? I am not. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave > returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:29:48 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 22:29:48 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <038b01cf4706$88813a20$9983ae60$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> <038b01cf4706$88813a20$9983ae60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532F989C.1030800@gmail.com> Whatever. I want to help them see (and do) the whole job. Carry on, I'll stay out of it. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:12 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > No argument. > > I was trying to get the user over a small hump: > > http://goo.gl/y1jb6P > > > You want to help them build: > > http://goo.gl/yrudv9 > > > Oh well, once a rocket scientist, always a rocket scientist. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:55 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in > general. > > Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The > programming language / > environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. > > OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single > location, wrapping behaviors > and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered > code to hell and back to > handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to > handle that? In the > form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S > properties and events. > Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control > that it contains. And > anything else you want to stuff there!!! > > If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and > their cars and their > invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you > create a table for each > item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In > programming, I > (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" > way of doing > programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is > supposed to model one > object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific > form, NOT a bajillion > other things as well. > > Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming > experience, ALLOWS you > to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, > but that does not make > it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced > professionals, we need to learn > how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to > encapsulate the behaviors of a > text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access > programming. > > It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize > and encapsulate the > behaviors you are trying to implement. > > An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap > into the form's module > for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the > next form. > > An unbound form needs to: > 0) Connect to a data source. > 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) > 2) Disconnect from the data source. > 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio > buttons. > 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. > 5) connect to a data source. > 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. > 7) HANDLE edit collisions. > 8) Disconnect from the data source. > > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. > The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? > The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. > How do you discover > that? How do you handle that? > The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it > back. > > The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF > THIS STUFF for you when > you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all > this (and more). > > I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not > handling ANY of this. And > the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making > changes which just > "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes > went!!!! > > So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I > (personally) am VERY uneasy > throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of > the solutions I have > seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. > > Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over > and over and over and over > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and > over and > > in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the > controls, watch the controls for > changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit > collisions. EVERY FORM had > MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of > paper. Can you say "CRAP > PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice > programming. > > So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do > this correctly) in each > and every form of YOUR solution? > > I am not. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I > gave >> returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:32:53 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 22:32:53 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F989C.1030800@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <02e001cf46fd$53e80ae0$fbb820a0$@gmail.com> <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> <038b01cf4706$88813a20$9983ae60$@gmail.com> <532F989C.1030800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03bb01cf4709$5ca92360$15fb6a20$@gmail.com> WHY THE HELL... since the OP did not yet respond, would you stay out of anything regarding them, just because you and I have a philosophical argument regarding over-engineering, and I make a joke? No reason to punish them or the list. John YOU should never stay out of anything, you have your methods and made good arguments. Who says they want to live in a Lincoln Log house (looked awful drafty) instead of going to the moon... just make sure you have your heat shields. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:30 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Whatever. I want to help them see (and do) the whole job. Carry on, I'll stay out of it. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:12 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > No argument. > > I was trying to get the user over a small hump: > > http://goo.gl/y1jb6P > > > You want to help them build: > > http://goo.gl/yrudv9 > > > Oh well, once a rocket scientist, always a rocket scientist. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:55 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in > general. > > Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The > programming language / > environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. > > OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single > location, wrapping behaviors > and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered > code to hell and back to > handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to > handle that? In the > form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S > properties and events. > Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control > that it contains. And > anything else you want to stuff there!!! > > If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and > their cars and their > invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you > create a table for each > item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In > programming, I > (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" > way of doing > programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is > supposed to model one > object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific > form, NOT a bajillion > other things as well. > > Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming > experience, ALLOWS you > to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, > but that does not make > it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced > professionals, we need to learn > how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to > encapsulate the behaviors of a > text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access > programming. > > It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize > and encapsulate the > behaviors you are trying to implement. > > An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap > into the form's module > for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the > next form. > > An unbound form needs to: > 0) Connect to a data source. > 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) > 2) Disconnect from the data source. > 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio > buttons. > 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. > 5) connect to a data source. > 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. > 7) HANDLE edit collisions. > 8) Disconnect from the data source. > > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. > The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? > The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. > How do you discover > that? How do you handle that? > The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it > back. > > The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF > THIS STUFF for you when > you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all > this (and more). > > I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not > handling ANY of this. And > the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making > changes which just > "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes > went!!!! > > So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I > (personally) am VERY uneasy > throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of > the solutions I have > seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. > > Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over > and over and over and over > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and > over and > > in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the > controls, watch the controls for > changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit > collisions. EVERY FORM had > MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of > paper. Can you say "CRAP > PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice > programming. > > So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do > this correctly) in each > and every form of YOUR solution? > > I am not. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I > gave >> returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Mar 23 21:35:28 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 20:35:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. For larger projects, a healthy code library, at your disposal, is of course now a requirement. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2014 6:54:51 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single location, wrapping behaviors and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered code to hell and back to handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to handle that? In the form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S properties and events. Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control that it contains. And anything else you want to stuff there!!! If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and their cars and their invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you create a table for each item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In programming, I (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" way of doing programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is supposed to model one object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific form, NOT a bajillion other things as well. Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming experience, ALLOWS you to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, but that does not make it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced professionals, we need to learn how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to encapsulate the behaviors of a text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access programming. It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize and encapsulate the behaviors you are trying to implement. An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap into the form's module for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the next form. An unbound form needs to: 0) Connect to a data source. 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) 2) Disconnect from the data source. 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio buttons. 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. 5) connect to a data source. 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. 7) HANDLE edit collisions. 8) Disconnect from the data source. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. How do you discover that? How do you handle that? The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it back. The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF THIS STUFF for you when you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all this (and more). I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not handling ANY of this. And the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making changes which just "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes went!!!! So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I (personally) am VERY uneasy throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of the solutions I have seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the controls, watch the controls for changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit collisions. EVERY FORM had MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of paper. Can you say "CRAP PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice programming. So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do this correctly) in each and every form of YOUR solution? I am not. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave > returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:50:18 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 22:50:18 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <03e401cf470b$cb97cf90$62c76eb0$@gmail.com> BTW As a diatribe against unbound controls, I like it. I just wish I could get away with all my laziassness using bound controls, but they never work for me because I never seem to know how to create an updateable recordset the way I do things. Like have large flat-ish tables wherein I need to create group by queries to present simplified information for them to cherry-edit values on unbound forms, then push the changes back to the main tables. No doubts about it John, you are the professional's professional. I am just a hack. Not proud of it, and maybe someday someone will pay me to learn better techniques. If they don't I will just do what I have time to do. BB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:35 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Hi John: I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. For larger projects, a healthy code library, at your disposal, is of course now a requirement. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2014 6:54:51 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single location, wrapping behaviors and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered code to hell and back to handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to handle that? In the form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S properties and events. Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control that it contains. And anything else you want to stuff there!!! If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and their cars and their invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you create a table for each item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In programming, I (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" way of doing programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is supposed to model one object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific form, NOT a bajillion other things as well. Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming experience, ALLOWS you to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, but that does not make it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced professionals, we need to learn how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to encapsulate the behaviors of a text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access programming. It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize and encapsulate the behaviors you are trying to implement. An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap into the form's module for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the next form. An unbound form needs to: 0) Connect to a data source. 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) 2) Disconnect from the data source. 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio buttons. 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. 5) connect to a data source. 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. 7) HANDLE edit collisions. 8) Disconnect from the data source. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. How do you discover that? How do you handle that? The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it back. The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF THIS STUFF for you when you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all this (and more). I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not handling ANY of this. And the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making changes which just "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes went!!!! So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I (personally) am VERY uneasy throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of the solutions I have seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the controls, watch the controls for changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit collisions. EVERY FORM had MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of paper. Can you say "CRAP PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice programming. So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do this correctly) in each and every form of YOUR solution? I am not. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I gave > returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 21:52:10 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 22:52:10 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <532F9DDA.9020500@gmail.com> Jim, >I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. You consider unbound forms a "rather simple requirement"? I build a framework (and I have built several) one piece at a time. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. To never take the first step guarantees that the journey remains nothing but a dream. I have a blog which builds very basic classes, and explains how and why they work. http://jwcolby.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar It is not copyrighted. And contrary to popular belief, it isn't rocket science either. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:35 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. For larger projects, a healthy code library, at your disposal, is of course now a requirement. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2014 6:54:51 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. > > Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / > environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 23 22:10:56 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:10:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <03e401cf470b$cb97cf90$62c76eb0$@gmail.com> References: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> <03e401cf470b$cb97cf90$62c76eb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <532FA240.6060408@gmail.com> LOL, that was not a diatribe against unbound controls, it was a diatribe against minimizing the design / engineering required to do the job right. BTW, I was asked to go out to Beaverton OR (from RTP Raleigh-Durham) to work with a team of engineers implementing an Access system. My job was to design the code behind 6 small forms. This is where I discovered the "miles of code" I mentioned, in this system. In three weeks I designed a tiny framework for handling all of the aspects of reading / distributing / checking / writing of these unbound forms. It consisted of about 8 classes total. I had a class for modeling the ADO recordset used to read / write the data. It had methods for building out CRUD behaviors, and ADO objects for establishing the connection and recordsets used. I had a form class, a class for each of the controls (text / combo / check box / command button) , and I had a couple of helper classes. It was a PITA, but it was not rocket science. Much of the work is the modeling itself, what are the objects and what do they do. How do they interface to each other. What data needs to be stored about each object while we are working with them? What code is needed to implement their behaviors? When I was done, each form used the same programming model to perform all of the work required to do the job. A framework is just a well behaved system of classes each doing its part in the overall dance production. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:50 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > BTW As a diatribe against unbound controls, I like it. I just wish I could > get away with all my laziassness using bound controls, but they never work > for me because I never seem to know how to create an updateable recordset > the way I do things. Like have large flat-ish tables wherein I need to > create group by queries to present simplified information for them to > cherry-edit values on unbound forms, then push the changes back to the main > tables. > > No doubts about it John, you are the professional's professional. I am just > a hack. Not proud of it, and maybe someday someone will pay me to learn > better techniques. If they don't I will just do what I have time to do. > > BB > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 06:37:40 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 07:37:40 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <03e401cf470b$cb97cf90$62c76eb0$@gmail.com> References: <532F906B.8000604@gmail.com> <378911638.9078982.1395628528483.JavaMail.root@cds018> <03e401cf470b$cb97cf90$62c76eb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53301904.1030308@gmail.com> I am not working in Access much any more. However if there is interest I will create a thread for a discussion about building a framework for implementing unbound forms using classes. This will be YOUR discussion though, i.e. it will be a group effort, with group ideas on what has to be done. I will guide the class / framework side. Let me know. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:50 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > BTW As a diatribe against unbound controls, I like it. I just wish I could > get away with all my laziassness using bound controls, but they never work > for me because I never seem to know how to create an updateable recordset > the way I do things. Like have large flat-ish tables wherein I need to > create group by queries to present simplified information for them to > cherry-edit values on unbound forms, then push the changes back to the main > tables. > > No doubts about it John, you are the professional's professional. I am just > a hack. Not proud of it, and maybe someday someone will pay me to learn > better techniques. If they don't I will just do what I have time to do. > > BB > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:35 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > Hi John: > > I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes > built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple > requirement. For larger projects, a healthy code library, at your disposal, > is of course now a requirement. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > > Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2014 6:54:51 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in > general. > > Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The > programming language / > environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. > > OO is about storing the code and data for a given object in a single > location, wrapping behaviors > and data together. If you are not using classes than you have scattered > code to hell and back to > handle the objects. The events fire for a text box. Where is the code to > handle that? In the > form's class? But the form's class is supposed to be modeling the FORM'S > properties and events. > Now it is handling every event for not only itself, but for every control > that it contains. And > anything else you want to stuff there!!! > > If you design a table, do you place all the information about the client and > their cars and their > invoices and their orders all in the client table? Obviously not, you > create a table for each > item. You are MODELING objects, with each object having its own table. In > programming, I > (personally) model each object. OO teaches me that is the "best practices" > way of doing > programming. Each function is supposed to do one thing. Each class is > supposed to model one > object. The form's module is a CLASS!!! It is supposed to model a specific > form, NOT a bajillion > other things as well. > > Microsoft, knowing full well that the average user will have no programming > experience, ALLOWS you > to put code and variables for the whole damned world into the form's class, > but that does not make > it the right thing to do. As we "average users" become practiced > professionals, we need to learn > how to do things better. If you never even consider using a class to > encapsulate the behaviors of a > text box, then you are just blindly using 1992 methods of Access > programming. > > It feels that you never even consider whether a class would help to organize > and encapsulate the > behaviors you are trying to implement. > > An unbound form is a decidedly complex system. To just blindly stuff crap > into the form's module > for this form, GUARANTEES that you will be doing the same thing into the > next form. > > An unbound form needs to: > 0) Connect to a data source. > 1) Load a record from some data source (SQL Server?) > 2) Disconnect from the data source. > 3) Distribute that data out into controls - text boxes, combo boxes, radio > buttons. > 4) Watch those controls to discover whether changes are made. > 5) connect to a data source. > 6) Write the changes back out to SQL Server. > 7) HANDLE edit collisions. > 8) Disconnect from the data source. > > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to read it. > The record being edited can be deleted. What do you do then? > The record you are editing can be edited by another user since you read it. > How do you discover > that? How do you handle that? > The record you are editing can be locked when you try and write it back. > The connection to the server can be unavailable when you try to write it > back. > > The unholy unbounders make light of bound forms but Access handles ALL OF > THIS STUFF for you when > you use bound forms. If you are going to do unbound, YOU have to handle all > this (and more). > > I did a 1 year contract at IBM. They were using unbound forms and not > handling ANY of this. And > the users are SWEARING (in general, but specifically) that they are making > changes which just > "disappear". Well no shit Sherlock! I can't imagine where the changes > went!!!! > > So when a user says "I want to build an unbound form to edit data", I > (personally) am VERY uneasy > throwing out a trivial solution. There IS NO TRIVIAL SOLUTION. And none of > the solutions I have > seen proposed have even discussed ANY of the issues I have mentioned. > > Back to IBM... the previous programmer wrote the same code, over and over > and over and over and over > and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and > over and > > in each and every form to read the data, distribute the code to the > controls, watch the controls for > changes, and write the data back out, all without ANY THOUGHT to edit > collisions. EVERY FORM had > MILES of code in it. Print that puppy out and EVERY FORM had a yard of > paper. Can you say "CRAP > PROGRAMMING"??? Well, not exactly crap programming, more like novice > programming. > > So now, are you going to encapsulate all of the REQUIRED programming (To do > this correctly) in each > and every form of YOUR solution? > > I am not. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/23/2014 9:06 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >> So what would the class be, of type Control? And.... why? The method I > gave >> returns that ANY change occurred, and it is simple. > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Mon Mar 24 07:06:51 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:06:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21AA7899A44441A48EA02AC17208D2B7@XPS> I would have to add, I'd go with something other then Access as well. If your going to go the unbound route, then at this point in time, then why would you bother to use Access? The whole point of using Access is the features that are built-in, such as bound forms. If your not going to bother with that, then you could just as easily using VB6/VB.Net/C# with Winforms and not get all the Access baggage. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 09:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the > form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY > controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a > possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you > won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a > runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe > separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) > End function > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 24 07:44:31 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:44:31 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Message-ID: <0e993c60853c40c2a7e9c463ba72a237@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Jim You have a point here. A nice tool could be LightSwitch, and a place to start could be here: http://lightswitchhelpwebsite.com/Blog/tabid/61/EntryId/3250/An-End-To-End-Visual-Studio-LightSwitch-2013-HTML5-Application.aspx Do recall that a LightSwitch app can be changed from a desktop app to a web app and vice-versa by flipping one switch. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Jim Dettman Sendt: 24. marts 2014 13:07 Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Emne: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes I would have to add, I'd go with something other then Access as well. If your going to go the unbound route, then at this point in time, then why would you bother to use Access? The whole point of using Access is the features that are built-in, such as bound forms. If your not going to bother with that, then you could just as easily using VB6/VB.Net/C# with Winforms and not get all the Access baggage. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 09:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit > the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if > ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is > a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then > you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value > throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a > single string using a pipe > separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 08:21:34 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:21:34 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound framework - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <21AA7899A44441A48EA02AC17208D2B7@XPS> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <21AA7899A44441A48EA02AC17208D2B7@XPS> Message-ID: <5330315E.2060809@gmail.com> Jim, I certainly appreciate that view, however there are valid reasons for sticking with Access as well. Access has very real baggage and limitations, however it does some things really well. 1) Connecting to a multitude of data sources. 2) Quick and easy reporting. 3) Extremely fast generation of new forms. 4) Already in place and understood in many businesses 5) Already understood by our list members And then there is the learning curve for moving to DotNet if Access is what you do. I happen to have expertise in Access classes and frameworks, and so I offered to anchor a discussion on building an unbound framework using classes in Access. There may in fact not be any interest any more. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 8:06 AM, Jim Dettman wrote: > I would have to add, I'd go with something other then Access as well. > > If your going to go the unbound route, then at this point in time, then why > would you bother to use Access? The whole point of using Access is the > features that are built-in, such as bound forms. > > If your not going to bother with that, then you could just as easily using > VB6/VB.Net/C# with Winforms and not get all the Access baggage. > > Jim. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From df.waters at comcast.net Mon Mar 24 09:24:56 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:24:56 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> Hi John, I sincerely want to suggest that you write a how-to book on class usage in Access. Your blog postings are a great start. I don't believe I've ever seen anything commercially available like that. You can write it and sell it as an e-book on Amazon - you will get sales. You have a unique skillset here that you have developed with a lot of effort - it's time to get some reward! However, having watched my father write his 5th book, he still needed a good editor, and all authors do. So write out the introductory chapter, post it here and we'll all give feedback - for free! All the best! Dan PS - I think you'd actually be doing many thousands of businesses a big plus - they will be able to get much better use out of a tool they already own. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:02 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the class. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit > the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if > ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is > a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then > you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value > throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a > single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. > > 'Warning air code!!! > Option explicit > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > Form_Load() > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > '... > End Sub > > Have a function named FormChanged > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > Dim strValidate as string > For each ctrl in controls > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > strValidate = _ > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > End If > Next > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 13:24:38 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:24:38 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> Message-ID: John, I think I already informed you there was a misunderstanding related to how you implement class modules. I even asked a follow up question in our earlier thread but got no response so just figured I had worn you out. I think it is just that I am a horribly inept OOP person with no background in anything other than VBA. I would welcome reading more and learning from you (or I could say welcome reading your attempts at instruction, since hard headed hacks with already well formed but poorly informed bad habits find it hard to turn around). I would buy your e-book as well however rather than a book I suggest serial editions... modules (pun intended). This way you can adapt the new modules according to feedback received and your audience's requests/thirst for more. Later on you can coalesce many well received modules into a book. I will definitely come along for the ride however you do this but from what I understand not many writers make money. Plus it is hard to pace (myself) when there is an immense book to get through (and I can skip ahead). By restricting the student to no more than their current module, and containing within each module everything needed for that module (which allows you also to repeat yourself if you like, because skills and knowledge are needed across ever more complex tasks and reinforcement is a good thing), the pupil is a genius by the time they come out the other side... or even if a dropout, at least they accomplished something. Write on! On Mar 24, 2014 10:26 AM, "Dan Waters" wrote: > Hi John, > > I sincerely want to suggest that you write a how-to book on class usage in > Access. Your blog postings are a great start. I don't believe I've ever > seen anything commercially available like that. > > You can write it and sell it as an e-book on Amazon - you will get sales. > You have a unique skillset here that you have developed with a lot of > effort > - it's time to get some reward! > > However, having watched my father write his 5th book, he still needed a > good > editor, and all authors do. So write out the introductory chapter, post it > here and we'll all give feedback - for free! > > All the best! > Dan > > PS - I think you'd actually be doing many thousands of businesses a big > plus > - they will be able to get much better use out of a tool they already own. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:02 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code > to > check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the > class. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit > > the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if > > ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is > > a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then > > you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value > > throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a > > single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. > > > > 'Warning air code!!! > > Option explicit > > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > > > Form_Load() > > For each ctrl in controls > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > End If > > Next > > '... > > End Sub > > > > Have a function named FormChanged > > > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > > Dim strValidate as string > > For each ctrl in controls > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > strValidate = _ > > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > End If > > Next > > > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From df.waters at comcast.net Mon Mar 24 13:42:45 2014 From: df.waters at comcast.net (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:42:45 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003f01cf4790$d8ef5520$8acdff60$@comcast.net> My thoughts were that this would be a relatively small book, 50 - 100 pages, and focus on this one topic of using classes to create a framework. It wouldn't be sold to make a lot of money, but at $9.50 apiece, sold a few thousand times, makes for a really nice family vacation! In addition, people who write and sell books on a singular valuable topic like this are often sought out for work engagements, sometimes at a very good rate! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 1:25 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes John, I think I already informed you there was a misunderstanding related to how you implement class modules. I even asked a follow up question in our earlier thread but got no response so just figured I had worn you out. I think it is just that I am a horribly inept OOP person with no background in anything other than VBA. I would welcome reading more and learning from you (or I could say welcome reading your attempts at instruction, since hard headed hacks with already well formed but poorly informed bad habits find it hard to turn around). I would buy your e-book as well however rather than a book I suggest serial editions... modules (pun intended). This way you can adapt the new modules according to feedback received and your audience's requests/thirst for more. Later on you can coalesce many well received modules into a book. I will definitely come along for the ride however you do this but from what I understand not many writers make money. Plus it is hard to pace (myself) when there is an immense book to get through (and I can skip ahead). By restricting the student to no more than their current module, and containing within each module everything needed for that module (which allows you also to repeat yourself if you like, because skills and knowledge are needed across ever more complex tasks and reinforcement is a good thing), the pupil is a genius by the time they come out the other side... or even if a dropout, at least they accomplished something. Write on! On Mar 24, 2014 10:26 AM, "Dan Waters" wrote: > Hi John, > > I sincerely want to suggest that you write a how-to book on class > usage in Access. Your blog postings are a great start. I don't > believe I've ever seen anything commercially available like that. > > You can write it and sell it as an e-book on Amazon - you will get sales. > You have a unique skillset here that you have developed with a lot of > effort > - it's time to get some reward! > > However, having watched my father write his 5th book, he still needed > a good editor, and all authors do. So write out the introductory > chapter, post it here and we'll all give feedback - for free! > > All the best! > Dan > > PS - I think you'd actually be doing many thousands of businesses a > big plus > - they will be able to get much better use out of a tool they already own. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W > Colby > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:02 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the > code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be > stored in the class. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit > > the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing > > if ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where > > this is a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this > > tag - then you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no > > value throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in > > a single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. > > > > 'Warning air code!!! > > Option explicit > > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > > > Form_Load() > > For each ctrl in controls > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > End If > > Next > > '... > > End Sub > > > > Have a function named FormChanged > > > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > > Dim strValidate as string > > For each ctrl in controls > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > strValidate = _ > > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > End If > > Next > > > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function > > > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jackandpat.d at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 13:51:42 2014 From: jackandpat.d at gmail.com (jack drawbridge) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <003f01cf4790$d8ef5520$8acdff60$@comcast.net> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> <003f01cf4790$d8ef5520$8acdff60$@comcast.net> Message-ID: I agree with Dan. There is so little into on classes and Access, and John, since you live and breathe this stuff - It could be a hit. On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > My thoughts were that this would be a relatively small book, 50 - 100 > pages, > and focus on this one topic of using classes to create a framework. It > wouldn't be sold to make a lot of money, but at $9.50 apiece, sold a few > thousand times, makes for a really nice family vacation! > > In addition, people who write and sell books on a singular valuable topic > like this are often sought out for work engagements, sometimes at a very > good rate! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 1:25 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > John, I think I already informed you there was a misunderstanding related > to > how you implement class modules. I even asked a follow up question in our > earlier thread but got no response so just figured I had worn you out. > I think it is just that I am a horribly inept OOP person with no background > in anything other than VBA. > > I would welcome reading more and learning from you (or I could say welcome > reading your attempts at instruction, since hard headed hacks with already > well formed but poorly informed bad habits find it hard to turn around). I > would buy your e-book as well however rather than a book I suggest serial > editions... modules (pun intended). This way you can adapt the new modules > according to feedback received and your audience's requests/thirst for > more. > Later on you can coalesce many well received modules into a book. > > I will definitely come along for the ride however you do this but from what > I understand not many writers make money. Plus it is hard to pace (myself) > when there is an immense book to get through (and I can skip ahead). By > restricting the student to no more than their current module, and > containing > within each module everything needed for that module (which allows you also > to repeat yourself if you like, because skills and knowledge are needed > across ever more complex tasks and reinforcement is a good thing), the > pupil > is a genius by the time they come out the other side... or even if a > dropout, at least they accomplished something. > > Write on! > On Mar 24, 2014 10:26 AM, "Dan Waters" wrote: > > > Hi John, > > > > I sincerely want to suggest that you write a how-to book on class > > usage in Access. Your blog postings are a great start. I don't > > believe I've ever seen anything commercially available like that. > > > > You can write it and sell it as an e-book on Amazon - you will get sales. > > You have a unique skillset here that you have developed with a lot of > > effort > > - it's time to get some reward! > > > > However, having watched my father write his 5th book, he still needed > > a good editor, and all authors do. So write out the introductory > > chapter, post it here and we'll all give feedback - for free! > > > > All the best! > > Dan > > > > PS - I think you'd actually be doing many thousands of businesses a > > big plus > > - they will be able to get much better use out of a tool they already > own. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W > > Colby > > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:02 PM > > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > > > And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the > > code to check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be > > stored in the class. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > > > Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit > > > the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. > > > > > > As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing > > > if ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where > > > this is a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this > > > tag - then you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no > > > value throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in > > > a single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. > > > > > > 'Warning air code!!! > > > Option explicit > > > Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String > > > > > > Form_Load() > > > For each ctrl in controls > > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > > m_Initial_Control_Values = _ > > > m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > > End If > > > Next > > > '... > > > End Sub > > > > > > Have a function named FormChanged > > > > > > Function FormChanged() as Boolean > > > Dim strValidate as string > > > For each ctrl in controls > > > If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then > > > strValidate = _ > > > strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" > > > End If > > > Next > > > > > > FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function > > > > > > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 15:23:54 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form Message-ID: I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? Charlotte From mcp2004 at mail.ru Mon Mar 24 15:48:03 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 00:48:03 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Raising_events_from_a_subform_and_sinking_the?= =?utf-8?q?m_in_the_parent_form?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1395694083.352233622@f361.i.mail.ru> Hi Charlotte -- Why not just define a Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray eventArgs()) ? ? MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ? ' test End Sub in the Parent form and call it from a ?subform like that Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ?' test call -- Shamil Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust : >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? > >Charlotte >-- >AccessD mailing list >AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 15:53:08 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 16:53:08 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53309B34.3040803@gmail.com> I haven't tried it in 2010 / 2013. However any form (including a subform) IS a class. You would need to set a WithEvents variable in the parent class and set it to point to the child form. Then you should be able to sink the events. Don't forget to destroy the pointer when you close the parent form. When you set the pointer I think you use the syntax something like: Dim withevents MySFrm as form_MySubFormName set MySFrm = MyParentForm!MySubformCtl.Form Or something close to that. The above is pure air code. If you succeed in getting the above syntax working then the subform will be available in the controls combo in the code module. You can select it just as you would a combo or other control, then select the Events combo and and select the event you want to sink. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 4:23 PM, Charlotte Foust wrote: > I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I > hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and > sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? > > Charlotte --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 16:19:45 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:19:45 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <532F841C.1040504@gmail.com> <001b01cf476c$d4a7f1d0$7df7d570$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5330A171.50105@gmail.com> I was a co-author on two different books and made probably a couple of thousand total over the years on royalties. I have wanted to write this as an ebook for years, life just got in the way. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 2:24 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > John, I think I already informed you there was a misunderstanding related > to how you implement class modules. I even asked a follow up question in > our earlier thread but got no response so just figured I had worn you out. > I think it is just that I am a horribly inept OOP person with no background > in anything other than VBA. > > I would welcome reading more and learning from you (or I could say welcome > reading your attempts at instruction, since hard headed hacks with already > well formed but poorly informed bad habits find it hard to turn around). I > would buy your e-book as well however rather than a book I suggest serial > editions... modules (pun intended). This way you can adapt the new modules > according to feedback received and your audience's requests/thirst for > more. Later on you can coalesce many well received modules into a book. > > I will definitely come along for the ride however you do this but from what > I understand not many writers make money. Plus it is hard to pace (myself) > when there is an immense book to get through (and I can skip ahead). By > restricting the student to no more than their current module, and > containing within each module everything needed for that module (which > allows you also to repeat yourself if you like, because skills and > knowledge are needed across ever more complex tasks and reinforcement is a > good thing), the pupil is a genius by the time they come out the other > side... or even if a dropout, at least they accomplished something. > > Write on! > On Mar 24, 2014 10:26 AM, "Dan Waters" wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> I sincerely want to suggest that you write a how-to book on class usage in >> Access. Your blog postings are a great start. I don't believe I've ever >> seen anything commercially available like that. >> >> You can write it and sell it as an e-book on Amazon - you will get sales. >> You have a unique skillset here that you have developed with a lot of >> effort >> - it's time to get some reward! >> >> However, having watched my father write his 5th book, he still needed a >> good >> editor, and all authors do. So write out the introductory chapter, post it >> here and we'll all give feedback - for free! >> >> All the best! >> Dan >> >> PS - I think you'd actually be doing many thousands of businesses a big >> plus >> - they will be able to get much better use out of a tool they already own. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby >> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 8:02 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >> >> And having done all that stuff, I would go with a class. All of the code >> to >> check old value = new value, a dirty flag and so forth can be stored in the >> class. >> >> John W. Colby >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 3/23/2014 7:04 PM, Bill Benson wrote: >>> Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit >>> the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. >>> >>> As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if >>> ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is >>> a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then >>> you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value >>> throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a >>> single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. >>> >>> 'Warning air code!!! >>> Option explicit >>> Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String >>> >>> Form_Load() >>> For each ctrl in controls >>> If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then >>> m_Initial_Control_Values = _ >>> m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" >>> End If >>> Next >>> '... >>> End Sub >>> >>> Have a function named FormChanged >>> >>> Function FormChanged() as Boolean >>> Dim strValidate as string >>> For each ctrl in controls >>> If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then >>> strValidate = _ >>> strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" >>> End If >>> Next >>> >>> FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function >>> >> >> --- >> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus >> protection is active. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Mon Mar 24 16:15:33 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 16:15:33 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed References: Message-ID: All, I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. I work for a small manufacturing firm. The IT budget is VERY limited. We have a purchased Accounting system that uses a Pervasive Database. We have a purchased Manufacturing system that uses a Firebird Database. We have a Website that is maintained by an outside party. The website is hosted by GoDaddy. It uses a Microsoft SQL Server database. Because all three of these databases are accessible via ODBC, I have been able to use Access 2007 to build several inquiry and reporting systems. Access works great for this purpose. Currently, updates are only permitted "through the front door" of these three systems using the screens/pages that are provided. No updates via ODBC are permitted. We do not have any "in house" database that can be used for updates other than Access 2007. Recently I have starting working on a new project (using Access 2007) to streamline our internal order processing. In order to do this, I will need a new database with one table. Because of the size of the firm, the number of orders is quite small, therefore the number of updates to the new table will be quite small. When this new application goes live, there will be three users who will need to make a total of about 40 updates per day to this new table. In addition, there will be an Access 2007 batch application which will be run two times per week. This application will make approximately 100 database updates/additions each time it is run. Originally I was planning to use an Access 2007 (Split Back-end) database for this application. Currently, no "Critical Business Data" is stored in any Access Database. I was also thinking about storing this new table in the Web Database (SQL-Server on GoDaddy), but our Web Consultant has vetoed this idea. He also strongly recommends that we do not store the data in Access. He recommends that we use MySQL. So, here are the options that currently come to mind. Microsoft Access 2007 (Split Back-end) - Despite what our Web Consultant says. MySQL - or one of its Forks (I have no experience with MySQL) Local Install of Microsoft SQL Server (I have concern about the price tag and the amount of work - seems like a large overkill for just one table) Microsoft SQL Server (via a paid Hosted service - we have no experience with this approach) Given all of this as background, which approach would be best? Other options ? Everyone here on AccessD has more experience than I do in this realm and I value your ideas and insights. Thanks, Brad From Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com Mon Mar 24 16:27:57 2014 From: Rusty.Hammond at cpiqpc.com (Rusty Hammond) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 16:27:57 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BBDDFF4326F2D4CB8D8F52046CEC58D01DB5297@CPIEMAIL-EVS1.CPIQPC.NET> Brad, Have you though about SQL Server Express? It's free and sounds like it would work just fine for you. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/Products/sql-server-edition s/sql-server-express.aspx#fbid=jvloAlrI-a4 HTH, Rusty -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 4:16 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed All, I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. I work for a small manufacturing firm. The IT budget is VERY limited. We have a purchased Accounting system that uses a Pervasive Database. We have a purchased Manufacturing system that uses a Firebird Database. We have a Website that is maintained by an outside party. The website is hosted by GoDaddy. It uses a Microsoft SQL Server database. Because all three of these databases are accessible via ODBC, I have been able to use Access 2007 to build several inquiry and reporting systems. Access works great for this purpose. Currently, updates are only permitted "through the front door" of these three systems using the screens/pages that are provided. No updates via ODBC are permitted. We do not have any "in house" database that can be used for updates other than Access 2007. Recently I have starting working on a new project (using Access 2007) to streamline our internal order processing. In order to do this, I will need a new database with one table. Because of the size of the firm, the number of orders is quite small, therefore the number of updates to the new table will be quite small. When this new application goes live, there will be three users who will need to make a total of about 40 updates per day to this new table. In addition, there will be an Access 2007 batch application which will be run two times per week. This application will make approximately 100 database updates/additions each time it is run. Originally I was planning to use an Access 2007 (Split Back-end) database for this application. Currently, no "Critical Business Data" is stored in any Access Database. I was also thinking about storing this new table in the Web Database (SQL-Server on GoDaddy), but our Web Consultant has vetoed this idea. He also strongly recommends that we do not store the data in Access. He recommends that we use MySQL. So, here are the options that currently come to mind. Microsoft Access 2007 (Split Back-end) - Despite what our Web Consultant says. MySQL - or one of its Forks (I have no experience with MySQL) Local Install of Microsoft SQL Server (I have concern about the price tag and the amount of work - seems like a large overkill for just one table) Microsoft SQL Server (via a paid Hosted service - we have no experience with this approach) Given all of this as background, which approach would be best? Other options ? Everyone here on AccessD has more experience than I do in this realm and I value your ideas and insights. Thanks, Brad -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com ********************************************************************** WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received, scanned or otherwise recorded by the CPI Qualified Plan Consultants, Inc. corporate e-mail system and is subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to, someone other than the recipient. ********************************************************************** From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 24 16:37:19 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:37:19 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <532F9DDA.9020500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22696031.9655136.1395697039593.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: Good point but today's reality is that virtually all (or all) data systems are asynchronous. This means unbound. By the end of the nineties the whole concept of bounds objects was irrelevant. There just is enough server farms or broadband networking to support bound networks. Bound type databases networks because of this technology are very limited in size and with creation of fully capable ACID databases, unnecessary. In all databases the only thing that the desktop needs to manage is changes, deletions and additions. How the back-end handles all that is not a FE concern. That is why the MDB should never be used in place of real database work as it simply does not have the capabilities of a real SQL DB....and needed to have bound data in order to function...it was dead tech as of twenty years ago. Love your classes though and as soon as you have a fully function set of MS Access classes that support asynchronous databases count me in. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:52:10 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Jim, >I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. You consider unbound forms a "rather simple requirement"? I build a framework (and I have built several) one piece at a time. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. To never take the first step guarantees that the journey remains nothing but a dream. I have a blog which builds very basic classes, and explains how and why they work. http://jwcolby.blogspot.com/?view=sidebar It is not copyrighted. And contrary to popular belief, it isn't rocket science either. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/23/2014 10:35 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > I see no flaw in your argument other than, if you don't already have classes built and tested, it can be a bit of over-complexing a rather simple requirement. For larger projects, a healthy code library, at your disposal, is of course now a requirement. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" > Sent: Sunday, 23 March, 2014 6:54:51 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > LOL, but you have already made clear that you see no benefit to classes in general. > > Classes allow us to use Object Oriented programming techniques. The programming language / > environment is irrelevant, that is their purpose. > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 17:03:33 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 18:03:33 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <22696031.9655136.1395697039593.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <22696031.9655136.1395697039593.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <5330ABB5.4040809@gmail.com> >>In all databases the only thing that the desktop needs to manage is changes, deletions and additions. How the back-end handles all that is not a FE concern. That is why the MDB should never be used in place of real database work as it simply does not have the capabilities of a real SQL DB....and needed to have bound data in order to function...it was dead tech as of twenty years ago. Well... Access FE / BE still works just fine for small systems. If you look at the number of companies by employee size, the small companies outnumber the large by a couple of orders of magnitude. https://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html I threw the numbers in a spreadsheet. Out of 5,948,601 total companies, 5,821,277 have under 100 hundred employees. Companies with under 100 employees tend to not have the budget for data centers and development teams. Assuming that the data is correctly partitioned, and of course depending on the total data size, such firms can and often do, easily use MDB back ends. I certainly don't want to start a war here, and I absolutely agree that in most of these cases a set of SQL Server Express BEs are much preferable. However to say that the Access BE is dead is inaccurate to say the least. Even the mention of a SQL Server Express instance often causes panic in the eyes of the very small business owner's eyes. In my view, the panic is not valid but it still often exists. SQL Server simply has a reputation for "high maintenance and high costs". Microsoft hasn't done a good job (IMHO) of selling SQL Server Express into small business. Furthermore for "moving up" from Express, MS' "per core" licensing changes has indeed truly caused massive cost increases relative to the old license system. So I agree that SQL Server Express is MUCH superior to the Access MDB, and yet I also say that the Access DB is perfectly capable in the beginning and for a long time, FOR THE SMALL COMPANY. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 5:37 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > Good point but today's reality is that virtually all (or all) data systems are asynchronous. This means unbound. > > By the end of the nineties the whole concept of bounds objects was irrelevant. There just is enough server farms or broadband networking to support bound networks. Bound type databases networks because of this technology are very limited in size and with creation of fully capable ACID databases, unnecessary. > > In all databases the only thing that the desktop needs to manage is changes, deletions and additions. How the back-end handles all that is not a FE concern. That is why the MDB should never be used in place of real database work as it simply does not have the capabilities of a real SQL DB....and needed to have bound data in order to function...it was dead tech as of twenty years ago. > > Love your classes though and as soon as you have a fully function set of MS Access classes that support asynchronous databases count me in. > > Jim > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 24 17:03:04 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:03:04 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <005701cf4248$3f7d2b80$be778280$@dalyn.co.nz> <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> Have finally managed to get the IT guy to add the user's IP address to allowed to relay list. He has also confirmed that the AV software is not blocking communication between workstations and Exchange in the local network. Tried Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic and used windows user and password but still no luck. Any other thoughts? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:38 p.m. To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up the mail server and find out what authentication they require. On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it should > have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up for me > before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > Regards > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error > Sending Emails Through Exchange > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly suspect > this line: > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > Hi Listers, > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try > > to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The > > server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = > 1") > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > With msg > > With .Configuration.Fields > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > .Update > > End With > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > .To = strTo > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > .From = strFrom > > .Send > > End With > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > The lines remmed out above have also been tried using the users windows > > logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure if this > > was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > server. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards > > > > David Emerson > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > Wellington, New Zealand From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 17:27:29 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form In-Reply-To: <1395694083.352233622@f361.i.mail.ru> References: <1395694083.352233622@f361.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the people who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any master/child links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) recordset for the desired record and pass the key into the loadData routine on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these guys are engineers, not database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. Charlotte. On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > Hi Charlotte -- > > Why not just define a > > Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray eventArgs()) > MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' test > End Sub > > in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that > > Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call > -- Shamil > > > Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > charlotte.foust at gmail.com>: > >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I > >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and > >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? > > > >Charlotte > >-- > >AccessD mailing list > >AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From mcp2004 at mail.ru Mon Mar 24 17:39:18 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 02:39:18 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Raising_events_from_a_subform_and_sinking_the?= =?utf-8?q?m_in_the_parent_form?= In-Reply-To: References: <1395694083.352233622@f361.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: <1395700758.537224012@f351.i.mail.ru> Charlotte -- But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) <<>> Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? -- Shamil Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust : >Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL > >Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the people >who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. >?I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any master/child >links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) >recordset for the desired record and pass the key into the loadData routine >on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these guys are engineers, not >database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. > >Charlotte. > > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: > >> Hi Charlotte -- >> >> Why not just define a >> >> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray eventArgs()) >> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' test >> End Sub >> >> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that >> >> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call >> -- Shamil >> >> >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I >> >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and >> >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? >> > >> >Charlotte >> >-- >> >AccessD mailing list >> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >-- >AccessD mailing list >AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Mon Mar 24 17:42:38 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:42:38 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46743326ca554bd4ab9d714691bf5f51@HKXPR04MB184.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Hi Brad, So long as you have the database spilt (Single BE and multiple FE with unbound forms) you should be ok with an Access BE. Have you considered using SQL Server Express for the BE, it is much faster and can store up to 10GB vs 2GB in Access. There is nothing wrong with MySQL either, although I prefer SQL Server Express because I am more familiar with it. Did the web dude explain why he felt MS Access was a bad idea? Sometime folks just say that without understand your approach. Sure MS Access can be a bad idea if implemented badly, but then again, so can any IT Solution. Hopefully others can offer you some suggestions here. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2014 8:16 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed All, I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. I work for a small manufacturing firm. The IT budget is VERY limited. We have a purchased Accounting system that uses a Pervasive Database. We have a purchased Manufacturing system that uses a Firebird Database. We have a Website that is maintained by an outside party. The website is hosted by GoDaddy. It uses a Microsoft SQL Server database. Because all three of these databases are accessible via ODBC, I have been able to use Access 2007 to build several inquiry and reporting systems. Access works great for this purpose. Currently, updates are only permitted "through the front door" of these three systems using the screens/pages that are provided. No updates via ODBC are permitted. We do not have any "in house" database that can be used for updates other than Access 2007. Recently I have starting working on a new project (using Access 2007) to streamline our internal order processing. In order to do this, I will need a new database with one table. Because of the size of the firm, the number of orders is quite small, therefore the number of updates to the new table will be quite small. When this new application goes live, there will be three users who will need to make a total of about 40 updates per day to this new table. In addition, there will be an Access 2007 batch application which will be run two times per week. This application will make approximately 100 database updates/additions each time it is run. Originally I was planning to use an Access 2007 (Split Back-end) database for this application. Currently, no "Critical Business Data" is stored in any Access Database. I was also thinking about storing this new table in the Web Database (SQL-Server on GoDaddy), but our Web Consultant has vetoed this idea. He also strongly recommends that we do not store the data in Access. He recommends that we use MySQL. So, here are the options that currently come to mind. Microsoft Access 2007 (Split Back-end) - Despite what our Web Consultant says. MySQL - or one of its Forks (I have no experience with MySQL) Local Install of Microsoft SQL Server (I have concern about the price tag and the amount of work - seems like a large overkill for just one table) Microsoft SQL Server (via a paid Hosted service - we have no experience with this approach) Given all of this as background, which approach would be best? Other options ? Everyone here on AccessD has more experience than I do in this realm and I value your ideas and insights. Thanks, Brad -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 24 18:00:43 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 17:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <5330ABB5.4040809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1701303275.9715403.1395702042972.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with heavy usage things were really grinding. For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 3:03:33 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >>In all databases the only thing that the desktop needs to manage is changes, deletions and additions. How the back-end handles all that is not a FE concern. That is why the MDB should never be used in place of real database work as it simply does not have the capabilities of a real SQL DB....and needed to have bound data in order to function...it was dead tech as of twenty years ago. Well... Access FE / BE still works just fine for small systems. If you look at the number of companies by employee size, the small companies outnumber the large by a couple of orders of magnitude. https://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html I threw the numbers in a spreadsheet. Out of 5,948,601 total companies, 5,821,277 have under 100 hundred employees. Companies with under 100 employees tend to not have the budget for data centers and development teams. Assuming that the data is correctly partitioned, and of course depending on the total data size, such firms can and often do, easily use MDB back ends. I certainly don't want to start a war here, and I absolutely agree that in most of these cases a set of SQL Server Express BEs are much preferable. However to say that the Access BE is dead is inaccurate to say the least. Even the mention of a SQL Server Express instance often causes panic in the eyes of the very small business owner's eyes. In my view, the panic is not valid but it still often exists. SQL Server simply has a reputation for "high maintenance and high costs". Microsoft hasn't done a good job (IMHO) of selling SQL Server Express into small business. Furthermore for "moving up" from Express, MS' "per core" licensing changes has indeed truly caused massive cost increases relative to the old license system. So I agree that SQL Server Express is MUCH superior to the Access MDB, and yet I also say that the Access DB is perfectly capable in the beginning and for a long time, FOR THE SMALL COMPANY. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 5:37 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > Good point but today's reality is that virtually all (or all) data systems are asynchronous. This means unbound. > > By the end of the nineties the whole concept of bounds objects was irrelevant. There just is enough server farms or broadband networking to support bound networks. Bound type databases networks because of this technology are very limited in size and with creation of fully capable ACID databases, unnecessary. > > In all databases the only thing that the desktop needs to manage is changes, deletions and additions. How the back-end handles all that is not a FE concern. That is why the MDB should never be used in place of real database work as it simply does not have the capabilities of a real SQL DB....and needed to have bound data in order to function...it was dead tech as of twenty years ago. > > Love your classes though and as soon as you have a fully function set of MS Access classes that support asynchronous databases count me in. > > Jim > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 18:22:36 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:22:36 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <1701303275.9715403.1395702042972.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1701303275.9715403.1395702042972.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <5330BE3C.2060203@gmail.com> At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all day and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server Express limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person company, there will never be 100 people in the database. Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have less than 20 people. There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there as well. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with heavy usage things were really grinding. > > For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > Jim > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 19:23:10 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:23:10 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <5330BE3C.2060203@gmail.com> References: <1701303275.9715403.1395702042972.JavaMail.root@cds018> <5330BE3C.2060203@gmail.com> Message-ID: A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned SW. Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a tablet or a Mac or both. What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, but many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special business management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as heck aren't asking for custom development in Access. On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all day > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server Express > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > less than 20 people. > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there as > well. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi John: >> >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with heavy >> usage things were really grinding. >> >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. >> >> Jim >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 24 20:30:22 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:30:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <5330BE3C.2060203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <978613253.9790605.1395711022665.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: I must admit that number, to me is exceptional. Do you really feel that, in an active company, a single network of bound Access databases could ever be supported? I still feel that, for the Windows desktop (excluding Windows 8.x of course), an Access FE is the best database presentation manager ever built so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for the product, I would be very interested. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 4:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all day and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server Express limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person company, there will never be 100 people in the database. Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have less than 20 people. There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there as well. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with heavy usage things were really grinding. > > For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > Jim > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 24 20:48:24 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:48:24 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <532772FF.20982.136443B9@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <005701cf4248$3f7d2b80$be778280$@dalyn.co.nz> <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <009501cf47cc$4f5f9b80$ee1ed280$@dalyn.co.nz> Finally found the solution. Combination of setting the values for variables (cdoBasic) and the IT guy giving me the correct smtp server address to use. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2014 11:03 a.m. To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange Have finally managed to get the IT guy to add the user's IP address to allowed to relay list. He has also confirmed that the AV software is not blocking communication between workstations and Exchange in the local network. Tried Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic and used windows user and password but still no luck. Any other thoughts? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:38 p.m. To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up the mail server and find out what authentication they require. On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it should > have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up for me > before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > Regards > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error > Sending Emails Through Exchange > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly suspect > this line: > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > Hi Listers, > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I try > > to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The > > server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject As > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = > 1") > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > "VariableID = 1") > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > With msg > > With .Configuration.Fields > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > .Update > > End With > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > .To = strTo > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > .From = strFrom > > .Send > > End With > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > The lines remmed out above have also been tried using the users > > windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure > > if this was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > server. > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > Regards > > > > David Emerson > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 24 20:50:07 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:50:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <437302955.9797576.1395712207666.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is probably a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had their own special products. Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and many, I would bet, you have never heard of. In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, everything is going web based. Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen IE and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been placed on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from oblivion. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned SW. Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a tablet or a Mac or both. What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, but many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special business management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as heck aren't asking for custom development in Access. On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all day > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server Express > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > less than 20 people. > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there as > well. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi John: >> >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with heavy >> usage things were really grinding. >> >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. >> >> Jim >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 21:15:05 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:15:05 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <978613253.9790605.1395711022665.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <978613253.9790605.1395711022665.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <5330E6A9.1070905@gmail.com> >so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for the product, I would be very interested. I created one so I do think it is possible. Understand that it was under contract for IBM so I cannot start with their code, however I learned a great deal doing that. The center of my framework system was a clsCRUD which implemented ADO methods for connecting to SQL Server, a recordset for loading the data, and methods for writing the data back to SQL Server WITH collision checking. One key to working with SQL Server is to use a special data field / type called a timestamp. It is not a timestamp, it is really a random number which is automatically created when a record is created, and updated by the SQL Server engine whenever any change is made to the record. The idea is that when you create or read a record, you immediately capture the value of that field for the record that will be modified. When it is time to perform the update, you: 1) Lock the record. 2) Compare the timestamp that you retained from created / read the record to the value in that field now. 3) If the timestamp in the record is the same as your stored value then the record was not updated between when you read the record and now. You can safely write your record changes. 4) If the timestamp has changed, then something was modified. Since you do not know what, you have to perform a compare of ONLY the fields that you have modified. 5) When you read the record initially (to perform a modification), you must SAVE the original values (in the class). 6) If the timestamp differs, then you have to READ the record a second time and compare old values to current values to see what specific fields were changed. 7) If a field that you have modified is different from the OLD value, then THAT field was modified and you cannot blindly overwrite the changes. 8) Any fields that were not modified can be safely overwritten. 9) Business rules have to be determined to figure out how to handle edit collisions. Often it comes down to warning the user and discarding the changes, rereading the (modified) data and allowing the user to re-edit as they see fit. 10) If a record is deleted while your user is editing it then???? 11) Eventually (most of the time) perform the write and unlock the record. When performing a write, you will be updating ONLY changed fields. As you can see from this discussion, simply writing changed data back without performing this analysis will cause previous edits to be lost and will cause users to not like you. You can also see why a class is so useful. We can create a CRUD instance for each open form. That instance can hold all of the old data, the code required to perform the analysis, the connection and recordset objects and so forth. To stuff all that code directly into a form class is insanity. When I did it, I created a helper class to hold the field name, the old value and the new value. This helper class would be created when the record was read initially, one instance for every field read. The field name was stored (for creating the UPDATE SQL statement later) and the value at the time originally read. If a timestamp was different, then a new read would happen and the NEW value placed in this helper class. The helper class then had the old value and the new value and code would return a "changed" flag if the old and new values were different. The CRUD class would read the (modified) record, update every helper and then look for changes. If any changes were for a field that my user had modified, then I had a problem, an edit collision. If not then, even though the record had been edited, I could simply write my user's changes back - and ONLY my user's changes. Since there were no edit collisions, my write of ONLY edited fields would not corrupt previous edits. Simple in theory, moderately complex in practice, required in any case. Unless of course you want to just use a "last edit survives" strategy. And you can see why the CRUD class is the center of the framework. It does a lot of the work. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/24/2014 9:30 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > I must admit that number, to me is exceptional. Do you really feel that, in an active company, a single network of bound Access databases could ever be supported? > > I still feel that, for the Windows desktop (excluding Windows 8.x of course), an Access FE is the best database presentation manager ever built so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for the product, I would be very interested. > > Jim > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From actebs at actebs.com.au Mon Mar 24 22:34:33 2014 From: actebs at actebs.com.au (ACTEBS) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:34:33 +1100 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cf47db$239fd140$6adf73c0$@actebs.com.au> Hi Bill, Many thanks for this. It works beautifully! Going through all the email regarding this subject, can I say, it great to see that active robust debate still exists in this world... Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to everyone, but I have been side tracked with another project. Thanks again Vlad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson Sent: Monday, 24 March 2014 10:05 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Re: Dirty, even if bound, a change would mean the user began to edit the form, not that they necessarily "made" a change. As for storing the control values, if all you care about is testing if ANY controls changed, I would put a tag in every control where this is a possibility and loop through all controls, test for this tag - then you won't have to worry about labels and controls with no value throwing off a runtime error. I would just store all values in a single string using a pipe separator, and check this again later. 'Warning air code!!! Option explicit Dim m_Initial_Control_Values as String Form_Load() For each ctrl in controls If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then m_Initial_Control_Values = _ m_Initial_Control_Values &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" End If Next '... End Sub Have a function named FormChanged Function FormChanged() as Boolean Dim strValidate as string For each ctrl in controls If ctrl.tag = "ValidateMe" then strValidate = _ strValidate &"|" & NZ(ctrl.value,"") &"|" End If Next FormChanged = (strValidate <> m_Initial_Control_Values) End function -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:49:53 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 00:49:53 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <437302955.9797576.1395712207666.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <437302955.9797576.1395712207666.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand for Access Developers to customize in house. If your experience differs...? On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi Bill: > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is probably > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had > their own special products. > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a > particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages > are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and > many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, > everything is going web based. > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate > for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an > immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen IE > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been placed > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > oblivion. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned SW. > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a > tablet or a Mac or both. > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google > Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, but > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special business > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and > billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as heck > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all > day > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server > Express > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > > less than 20 people. > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there > as > > well. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Hi John: > >> > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really > >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with > heavy > >> usage things were really grinding. > >> > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 00:10:48 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:10:48 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <5330E6A9.1070905@gmail.com> References: <978613253.9790605.1395711022665.JavaMail.root@cds018> <5330E6A9.1070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: This multiglom i worked at had an Oracle based product coded in Java to handle logistics. People swore that values in fields were changing without their doing anything. Apparently multiple users could view and edit the same shipment record. So you put in a date and someone else saved their record but did not include the date. Yours disappeared How this happened I don't recall but YOUR date would disappear when you saved. Really. Actually now that I recall it had something to do with the system autosaving records in progress. It was a messy implementation and rollout. Serious design flaw and inadequate logging. I was not involved with the design and don't recall the main cause so "wasn't me"... your system sounds mo' bettah. Multiglom's was built offshore with low - bidder . On Mar 24, 2014 10:15 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > >so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for > the product, I would be very interested. > > I created one so I do think it is possible. Understand that it was under > contract for IBM so I cannot start with their code, however I learned a > great deal doing that. > > The center of my framework system was a clsCRUD which implemented ADO > methods for connecting to SQL Server, a recordset for loading the data, and > methods for writing the data back to SQL Server WITH collision checking. > > One key to working with SQL Server is to use a special data field / type > called a timestamp. It is not a timestamp, it is really a random number > which is automatically created when a record is created, and updated by the > SQL Server engine whenever any change is made to the record. The idea is > that when you create or read a record, you immediately capture the value of > that field for the record that will be modified. When it is time to > perform the update, you: > > 1) Lock the record. > 2) Compare the timestamp that you retained from created / read the record > to the value in that field now. > 3) If the timestamp in the record is the same as your stored value then > the record was not updated between when you read the record and now. You > can safely write your record changes. > 4) If the timestamp has changed, then something was modified. Since you do > not know what, you have to perform a compare of ONLY the fields that you > have modified. > > 5) When you read the record initially (to perform a modification), you > must SAVE the original values (in the class). > 6) If the timestamp differs, then you have to READ the record a second > time and compare old values to current values to see what specific fields > were changed. > 7) If a field that you have modified is different from the OLD value, then > THAT field was modified and you cannot blindly overwrite the changes. > 8) Any fields that were not modified can be safely overwritten. > 9) Business rules have to be determined to figure out how to handle edit > collisions. Often it comes down to warning the user and discarding the > changes, rereading the (modified) data and allowing the user to re-edit as > they see fit. > 10) If a record is deleted while your user is editing it then???? > 11) Eventually (most of the time) perform the write and unlock the record. > > When performing a write, you will be updating ONLY changed fields. > > As you can see from this discussion, simply writing changed data back > without performing this analysis will cause previous edits to be lost and > will cause users to not like you. > > You can also see why a class is so useful. We can create a CRUD instance > for each open form. That instance can hold all of the old data, the code > required to perform the analysis, the connection and recordset objects and > so forth. To stuff all that code directly into a form class is insanity. > When I did it, I created a helper class to hold the field name, the old > value and the new value. This helper class would be created when the > record was read initially, one instance for every field read. The field > name was stored (for creating the UPDATE SQL statement later) and the value > at the time originally read. If a timestamp was different, then a new read > would happen and the NEW value placed in this helper class. The helper > class then had the old value and the new value and code would return a > "changed" flag if the old and new values were different. The CRUD class > would read the (modified) record, update every helper and then look for > changes. If any changes were for a field that my user had modified, then I > had a problem, an edit collision. If not then, even though the record had > been edited, I could simply write my user's changes back - and ONLY my > user's changes. Since there were no edit collisions, my write of ONLY > edited fields would not corrupt previous edits. > > Simple in theory, moderately complex in practice, required in any case. > Unless of course you want to just use a "last edit survives" strategy. > > And you can see why the CRUD class is the center of the framework. It > does a lot of the work. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/24/2014 9:30 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi John: >> >> I must admit that number, to me is exceptional. Do you really feel that, >> in an active company, a single network of bound Access databases could ever >> be supported? >> >> I still feel that, for the Windows desktop (excluding Windows 8.x of >> course), an Access FE is the best database presentation manager ever built >> so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for the >> product, I would be very interested. >> >> Jim >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 00:18:02 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 01:18:02 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <000001cf47db$239fd140$6adf73c0$@actebs.com.au> References: <000001cf45d9$a2235cc0$e66a1640$@actebs.com.au> <493de0fa5cc7432c96bce24b03a48254@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> <000601cf45df$8af06e70$a0d14b50$@actebs.com.au> <01bf01cf46ec$50aac9f0$f2005dd0$@gmail.com> <000001cf47db$239fd140$6adf73c0$@actebs.com.au> Message-ID: Vlad, > Many thanks for this. It works beautifully! Great! I'll never forget my manager once saying that you can have 2 out of three of these usually: 1) fast 2) reliable 3) cheap. I hope you were not short changed on the middle one. Bill From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 25 00:23:24 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <5330E6A9.1070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1986124369.9880059.1395725004264.JavaMail.root@cds018> I like the method you use: ...but I would tend to use a real timestamp than going to a random number generator. Considering a system can create a timestamp number with six places below the decimal point, the odds of a data conflict is almost mathematically impossible. Additionally, a record can be tagged (a field) as being in "process mode" or just have a field where the current-user code is stored (this will allow the situation where a single user is working from multiple stations) and again only then does the user system have to be concerned with possible modification conflicts. ...A file handling transaction logs can be used to document and record data changes...this is particularly important with invoicing as these data records are very active and can be used by multiple people, sometimes at the same time. ...another technique that I used when modifying a record was to AND and OR every field in the record, store that resulting number and when about to update the record, run the process again. If there was a difference in the two values, then handle it. ...Through overnight processing all flags would be cleared by locality and/or inactivity duration. ...deleted records have always been an issue. In my way of thinking records should never be deleted and should only be toggled/flagged active or inactive. If some user is somehow in the process of modifying a deleted record it can be easily handled (This also resolves the serious error on all big active databases where a situation called "the deadly embrace" used to be able to freeze a system up and require the DBA to unlock it). There should always be a garbage collection system that archives records that have been truly deleted...even then nothing is ever completely deleted. Sometimes records have to be recovered from archive; again not a complex issue. I have used these methods in most of my databases and in over twenty years and millions of records there are probably only a couple of situations, I can recall that manual intervention was required and then all the data was available in the transaction logs and archive files...and the causes for these issues were never discovered and I suspect a internal database failure but that was outside my realm of expertise. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 7:15:05 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >so if you feel that a set of unbound classes could ever be created, for the product, I would be very interested. I created one so I do think it is possible. Understand that it was under contract for IBM so I cannot start with their code, however I learned a great deal doing that. The center of my framework system was a clsCRUD which implemented ADO methods for connecting to SQL Server, a recordset for loading the data, and methods for writing the data back to SQL Server WITH collision checking. One key to working with SQL Server is to use a special data field / type called a timestamp. It is not a timestamp, it is really a random number which is automatically created when a record is created, and updated by the SQL Server engine whenever any change is made to the record. The idea is that when you create or read a record, you immediately capture the value of that field for the record that will be modified. When it is time to perform the update, you: 1) Lock the record. 2) Compare the timestamp that you retained from created / read the record to the value in that field now. 3) If the timestamp in the record is the same as your stored value then the record was not updated between when you read the record and now. You can safely write your record changes. 4) If the timestamp has changed, then something was modified. Since you do not know what, you have to perform a compare of ONLY the fields that you have modified. 5) When you read the record initially (to perform a modification), you must SAVE the original values (in the class). 6) If the timestamp differs, then you have to READ the record a second time and compare old values to current values to see what specific fields were changed. 7) If a field that you have modified is different from the OLD value, then THAT field was modified and you cannot blindly overwrite the changes. 8) Any fields that were not modified can be safely overwritten. 9) Business rules have to be determined to figure out how to handle edit collisions. Often it comes down to warning the user and discarding the changes, rereading the (modified) data and allowing the user to re-edit as they see fit. 10) If a record is deleted while your user is editing it then???? 11) Eventually (most of the time) perform the write and unlock the record. When performing a write, you will be updating ONLY changed fields. As you can see from this discussion, simply writing changed data back without performing this analysis will cause previous edits to be lost and will cause users to not like you. You can also see why a class is so useful. We can create a CRUD instance for each open form. That instance can hold all of the old data, the code required to perform the analysis, the connection and recordset objects and so forth. To stuff all that code directly into a form class is insanity. When I did it, I created a helper class to hold the field name, the old value and the new value. This helper class would be created when the record was read initially, one instance for every field read. The field name was stored (for creating the UPDATE SQL statement later) and the value at the time originally read. If a timestamp was different, then a new read would happen and the NEW value placed in this helper class. The helper class then had the old value and the new value and code would return a "changed" flag if the old and new values were different. The CRUD class would read the (modified) record, update every helper and then look for changes. If any changes were for a field that my user had modified, then I had a problem, an edit collision. If not then, even though the record had been edited, I could simply write my user's changes back - and ONLY my user's changes. Since there were no edit collisions, my write of ONLY edited fields would not corrupt previous edits. Simple in theory, moderately complex in practice, required in any case. Unless of course you want to just use a "last edit survives" strategy. And you can see why the CRUD class is the center of the framework. It does a lot of the work. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 25 00:31:44 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis are very important but without the POS there is no business. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand for Access Developers to customize in house. If your experience differs...? On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi Bill: > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is probably > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had > their own special products. > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a > particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages > are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and > many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, > everything is going web based. > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate > for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an > immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen IE > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been placed > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > oblivion. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned SW. > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a > tablet or a Mac or both. > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google > Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, but > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special business > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and > billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as heck > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all > day > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that their > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss a > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server > Express > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different databases, > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 person > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > > less than 20 people. > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there > as > > well. > > > > John W. Colby > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > >> Hi John: > >> > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really > >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about twenty > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with > heavy > >> usage things were really grinding. > >> > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 03:13:39 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:13:39 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <53313AB3.13098.39983688@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> If he has allowed relaying based on IP address you shouldn't need to authenticate. Try going back to cdoAnonymous. -- Stuart On 25 Mar 2014 at 11:03, David Emerson wrote: > Have finally managed to get the IT guy to add the user's IP address to > allowed to relay list. He has also confirmed that the AV software is > not blocking communication between workstations and Exchange in the > local network. > > Tried Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic and used windows user and > password but still no luck. > > Any other thoughts? > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:38 p.m. To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending > Emails Through Exchange > > It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. > > There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up > the mail server and find out what authentication they require. > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > > > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it > > should have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up > > for me before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > > > Regards > > > > David > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] > > Error Sending Emails Through Exchange > > > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly > > suspect this line: > > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I > > > try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. > > > The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject > > > As > > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = > 1") > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = > > > DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > > "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", > > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > > With msg > > > With .Configuration.Fields > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > > .Update > > > End With > > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > > .To = strTo > > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > > .From = strFrom > > > .Send > > > End With > > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > > > The lines remmed out above have also been tried using the users > > > windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure > > > if this was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > > server. > > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > David Emerson > > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > > Wellington, New Zealand > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 03:15:02 2014 From: stuart.mclachlan at gmail.com (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:15:02 +1000 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <009501cf47cc$4f5f9b80$ee1ed280$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz>, <009501cf47cc$4f5f9b80$ee1ed280$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <53313B06.13473.39997C4E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I had a similar problem on Monday - trying to email through the wrong server :( -- Stuart On 25 Mar 2014 at 14:48, David Emerson wrote: > Finally found the solution. Combination of setting the values for > variables (cdoBasic) and the IT guy giving me the correct smtp server > address to use. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David > Emerson Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2014 11:03 a.m. To: 'Access Developers > discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending > Emails Through Exchange > > Have finally managed to get the IT guy to add the user's IP address to > allowed to relay list. He has also confirmed that the AV software is > not blocking communication between workstations and Exchange in the > local network. > > Tried Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic and used windows user and > password but still no luck. > > Any other thoughts? > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:38 p.m. To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending > Emails Through Exchange > > It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. > > There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up > the mail server and find out what authentication they require. > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > > > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it > > should have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up > > for me before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > > > Regards > > > > David > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] > > Error Sending Emails Through Exchange > > > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly > > suspect this line: > > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I > > > try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. > > > The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject > > > As > > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = > 1") > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = > > > DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > > "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", > > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > > With msg > > > With .Configuration.Fields > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > > .Update > > > End With > > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > > .To = strTo > > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > > .From = strFrom > > > .Send > > > End With > > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > > > The lines remmed out above have also been tried using the users > > > windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure > > > if this was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > > server. > > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > David Emerson > > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > > Wellington, New Zealand > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 25 03:42:09 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:42:09 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form Message-ID: Hi Shamil He he, no you didn't, but that was what Charlotte was expecting, so she didn't even have to read your comment to know that you would suggest to use WithEvents. I did read it but had to read twice, because I thought I missed the word WithEvents in the first run! So I guess you will have to realize that still after all these years WithEvents is sticking to you. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Salakhetdinov Shamil Sendt: 24. marts 2014 23:39 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form Charlotte -- But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) <<>> Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? -- Shamil Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust : >Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL > >Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the >people who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. >?I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any >master/child links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in >it's (snapshot) recordset for the desired record and pass the key into >the loadData routine on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these >guys are engineers, not database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. > >Charlotte. > > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: > >> Hi Charlotte -- >> >> Why not just define a >> >> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray eventArgs()) >> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' test >> End Sub >> >> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that >> >> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call >> -- Shamil >> >> >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which >> >I hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising >> >and sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? >> > >> >Charlotte From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Tue Mar 25 03:51:07 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:51:07 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange In-Reply-To: <53313AB3.13098.39983688@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <004501cf4223$00213aa0$0063afe0$@dalyn.co.nz>, <5327B177.13284.1458462E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <001b01cf47ac$d4a565b0$7df03110$@dalyn.co.nz> <53313AB3.13098.39983688@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <010e01cf4807$5d0bd060$17237120$@dalyn.co.nz> I tried that but it didn't seem to work (although admittedly I stopped trying too hard once I got it to work with authentication). David -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 25 March 2014 9:14 p.m. To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending Emails Through Exchange If he has allowed relaying based on IP address you shouldn't need to authenticate. Try going back to cdoAnonymous. -- Stuart On 25 Mar 2014 at 11:03, David Emerson wrote: > Have finally managed to get the IT guy to add the user's IP address to > allowed to relay list. He has also confirmed that the AV software is > not blocking communication between workstations and Exchange in the > local network. > > Tried Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic and used windows user and > password but still no luck. > > Any other thoughts? > > Regards > > David Emerson > Dalyn Software Ltd > Wellington, New Zealand > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 3:38 p.m. To: Access Developers > discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Error Sending > Emails Through Exchange > > It depends on how the network and Exchange Server are configured. > > There are lots of possibilities. You need to talk to whoever set up > the mail server and find out what authentication they require. > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 14:20, David Emerson wrote: > > > I thought as much Stuart but not sure what I should use. > > > > I have the following in the code below which I tried: > > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > > I used the Windows username and password but I suspect that it > > should have been the Exchange credentials. Can anyone clear this up > > for me before I go back to the client and do some testing? > > > > Regards > > > > David > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart > > McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, 18 March 2014 11:11 a.m. To: Access > > Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] > > Error Sending Emails Through Exchange > > > > I don't use CDO ( I role my own email code), but I'd strongly > > suspect this line: > > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > > You will need an authenticated connection to the Exchange server > > before it will accept email for an outside address. > > > > > > On 18 Mar 2014 at 9:53, David Emerson wrote: > > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > > > Below is the error message my Access database is getting when I > > > try to send out an email using cdosys.dll: > > > > > > Error Number : -2147220977 > > > Error Msg: The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. > > > The server response was: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay. > > > > > > The VBA code I am using is below: > > > > > > Dim msg As Message, strSMTPServer As String, > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > As Integer, intSMTPServerPort As Integer > > > Dim strOrganisation As String, strFrom As String, strSubject > > > As > > String, strBody As String, strHeader As String > > > > > > strSMTPServer = DLookup("EmailSMTPServer", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = > 1") > > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout = > > > DLookup("EmailSMTPConnectionTimeout", > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > intSMTPServerPort = DLookup("EmailSMTPServerPort", > > > "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strOrganisation = DLookup("EmailOrganisation", "tlkpVariable", > > "VariableID = 1") > > > strFrom = DLookup("EmailSender", "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = > > > 1") strSubject = DLookup("EmailSubject", "tlkpVariable", > > > "VariableID = 1") strBody = DLookup("EmailBody", > > > "tlkpVariable", "VariableID = 1") > > > > > > Set msg = CreateObject("CDO.Message") > > > With msg > > > With .Configuration.Fields > > > .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoAnonymous > > > ' .Item(cdoSMTPAuthenticate) = cdoBasic > > > ' .Item(cdoSendUserName) = "username" > > > ' .Item(cdoSendPassword) = "password" > > > .Item(cdoSendUsingMethod) = cdoSendUsingPort > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServer) = strSMTPServer > > > .Item(cdoSMTPConnectionTimeout) = > > intSMTPConnectionTimeout > > > .Item(cdoSMTPServerPort) = intSMTPServerPort > > > .Update > > > End With > > > .Organization = strOrganisation > > > .To = strTo > > > .Subject = Nz(strSubject, " ") > > > .TextBody = Nz(strBody, " ") > > > .From = strFrom > > > .Send > > > End With > > > Set msg = Nothing > > > > > > The lines remmed out above have also been tried using the users > > > windows logon and password but the same message appeared (not sure > > > if this was the correct data for these properties though). > > > > > > The code has worked fine for other clients but they have not used > > > Microsoft Exchange for their emails. > > > > > > It also works if the recipient address has the same domain as the > > > server. > > > > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > David Emerson > > > Dalyn Software Ltd > > > Wellington, New Zealand From gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 25 03:55:03 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:55:03 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed Message-ID: <0997e9fb998a43d9922c60ef0a857a65@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Brad With three users making 40 updates a day, an Access backend is the perfect choice. However, there would be no reason to not use an SQL Express version as backend if you can dedicate a machine to host it. It could be an old XP machine with 500 MB ram and a decent disk. Given that you already joggle with three different database engines plus Access, it may not be too clever to introduce MySQL as a fifth. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Brad Marks Sendt: 24. marts 2014 22:16 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed All, I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. I work for a small manufacturing firm. The IT budget is VERY limited. We have a purchased Accounting system that uses a Pervasive Database. We have a purchased Manufacturing system that uses a Firebird Database. We have a Website that is maintained by an outside party. The website is hosted by GoDaddy. It uses a Microsoft SQL Server database. Because all three of these databases are accessible via ODBC, I have been able to use Access 2007 to build several inquiry and reporting systems. Access works great for this purpose. Currently, updates are only permitted "through the front door" of these three systems using the screens/pages that are provided. No updates via ODBC are permitted. We do not have any "in house" database that can be used for updates other than Access 2007. Recently I have starting working on a new project (using Access 2007) to streamline our internal order processing. In order to do this, I will need a new database with one table. Because of the size of the firm, the number of orders is quite small, therefore the number of updates to the new table will be quite small. When this new application goes live, there will be three users who will need to make a total of about 40 updates per day to this new table. In addition, there will be an Access 2007 batch application which will be run two times per week. This application will make approximately 100 database updates/additions each time it is run. Originally I was planning to use an Access 2007 (Split Back-end) database for this application. Currently, no "Critical Business Data" is stored in any Access Database. I was also thinking about storing this new table in the Web Database (SQL-Server on GoDaddy), but our Web Consultant has vetoed this idea. He also strongly recommends that we do not store the data in Access. He recommends that we use MySQL. So, here are the options that currently come to mind. Microsoft Access 2007 (Split Back-end) - Despite what our Web Consultant says. MySQL - or one of its Forks (I have no experience with MySQL) Local Install of Microsoft SQL Server (I have concern about the price tag and the amount of work - seems like a large overkill for just one table) Microsoft SQL Server (via a paid Hosted service - we have no experience with this approach) Given all of this as background, which approach would be best? Other options ? Everyone here on AccessD has more experience than I do in this realm and I value your ideas and insights. Thanks, Brad From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 25 04:05:33 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:05:33 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Raising_events_from_a_subform_and_sinking_the?= =?utf-8?q?m_in_the_parent_form?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1395738333.100820704@f398.i.mail.ru> Hi Gustav -- Yes, I see :) -- Shamil Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:42:09 +0000 from Gustav Brock : >Hi Shamil > >He he, no you didn't, but that was what Charlotte was expecting, so she didn't even have to read your comment to know that you would suggest to use WithEvents. > >I did read it but had to read twice, because I thought I missed the word WithEvents in the first run! > >So I guess you will have to realize that still after all these years WithEvents is sticking to you. > >/gustav > > >-----Oprindelig meddelelse----- >Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Salakhetdinov Shamil >Sendt: 24. marts 2014 23:39 >Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >Emne: Re: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form > >?Charlotte -- > >But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) > ><<>> Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? > >-- Shamil > >Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >>Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL >> >>Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the >>people who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. >>?I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any >>master/child links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in >>it's (snapshot) recordset for the desired record and pass the key into >>the loadData routine on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these >>guys are engineers, not database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. >> >>Charlotte. >> >> >>On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: >> >>> Hi Charlotte -- >>> >>> Why not just define a >>> >>> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray eventArgs()) >>> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' test >>> End Sub >>> >>> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that >>> >>> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call >>> -- Shamil >>> >>> >>> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < >>> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >>> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which >>> >I hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising >>> >and sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? >>> > >>> >Charlotte > > From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 06:51:30 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:51:30 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <1986124369.9880059.1395725004264.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1986124369.9880059.1395725004264.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <53316DC2.9000507@gmail.com> >>...but I would tend to use a real timestamp than going to a random number generator. This is a built-in data type with SQL Server and the update happens with no triggers or any other action by the developer, it is built in to the database engine. If the field exists (and there can be only one of this datatype per table) then an update automatically causes this field to be updated. If you go with a real date/time field then you have to perform the update with a trigger. >>...A file handling transaction logs can be used to document and record data changes... Yes, and that is additional processing on the developer's side. I am discussing a bare bones system ATM. >>...another technique that I used when modifying a record was to AND and OR every field in the record, The built-in timestamp field in SQL Server performs this very functionality for you. >>...deleted records have always been an issue. I agree, an active / trash flag pair was my solution (in the past) as well. I was not given the liberty at the IBM gig. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/25/2014 1:23 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > I like the method you use: > > ...but I would tend to use a real timestamp than going to a random number generator. Considering a system can create a timestamp number with six places below the decimal point, the odds of a data conflict is almost mathematically impossible. Additionally, a record can be tagged (a field) as being in "process mode" or just have a field where the current-user code is stored (this will allow the situation where a single user is working from multiple stations) and again only then does the user system have to be concerned with possible modification conflicts. > > ...A file handling transaction logs can be used to document and record data changes...this is particularly important with invoicing as these data records are very active and can be used by multiple people, sometimes at the same time. > > ...another technique that I used when modifying a record was to AND and OR every field in the record, store that resulting number and when about to update the record, run the process again. If there was a difference in the two values, then handle it. > > ...Through overnight processing all flags would be cleared by locality and/or inactivity duration. > > ...deleted records have always been an issue. In my way of thinking records should never be deleted and should only be toggled/flagged active or inactive. If some user is somehow in the process of modifying a deleted record it can be easily handled (This also resolves the serious error on all big active databases where a situation called "the deadly embrace" used to be able to freeze a system up and require the DBA to unlock it). There should always be a garbage collection system that archives records that have been truly deleted...even then nothing is ever completely deleted. Sometimes records have to be recovered from archive; again not a complex issue. > > I have used these methods in most of my databases and in over twenty years and millions of records there are probably only a couple of situations, I can recall that manual intervention was required and then all the data was available in the transaction logs and archive files...and the causes for these issues were never discovered and I suspect a internal database failure but that was outside my realm of expertise. > > Jim > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 25 07:53:21 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:53:21 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed In-Reply-To: <0997e9fb998a43d9922c60ef0a857a65@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <0997e9fb998a43d9922c60ef0a857a65@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: lol everyone beat me to the SQL express backend reply, I have used MySQL a little but I do prefer the SQL Express, but that's just my personal preference, just need to learn vb.net or c# now on the studio express versions, but find it slow going, for some reason I find it hard to teach myself, but put me in a work environment or classroom and bang just seems to sink in fine.... Paul On 25 March 2014 08:55, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Brad > > With three users making 40 updates a day, an Access backend is the perfect > choice. > > However, there would be no reason to not use an SQL Express version as > backend if you can dedicate a machine to host it. It could be an old XP > machine with 500 MB ram and a decent disk. Given that you already joggle > with three different database engines plus Access, it may not be too clever > to introduce MySQL as a fifth. > > /gustav > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto: > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Brad Marks > Sendt: 24. marts 2014 22:16 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed > > All, > > I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. > > I work for a small manufacturing firm. The IT budget is VERY limited. > > We have a purchased Accounting system that uses a Pervasive Database. > > We have a purchased Manufacturing system that uses a Firebird Database. > > We have a Website that is maintained by an outside party. The website is > hosted by GoDaddy. It uses a Microsoft SQL Server database. > > Because all three of these databases are accessible via ODBC, I have been > able to use Access 2007 to build several inquiry and reporting systems. > Access works great for this purpose. > > Currently, updates are only permitted "through the front door" of these > three systems using the screens/pages that are provided. No updates via > ODBC are permitted. > > We do not have any "in house" database that can be used for updates other > than Access 2007. > > Recently I have starting working on a new project (using Access 2007) to > streamline our internal order processing. In order to do this, I will > need a new database with one table. Because of the size of the firm, the > number of orders is quite small, therefore the number of updates to the new > table will be quite small. > > When this new application goes live, there will be three users who will > need to make a total of about 40 updates per day to this new table. In > addition, there will be an Access 2007 batch application which will be run > two times per week. This application will make approximately 100 database > updates/additions each time it is run. > > Originally I was planning to use an Access 2007 (Split Back-end) database > for this application. > > Currently, no "Critical Business Data" is stored in any Access Database. > > I was also thinking about storing this new table in the Web Database > (SQL-Server on GoDaddy), but our Web Consultant has vetoed this idea. > > He also strongly recommends that we do not store the data in Access. He > recommends that we use MySQL. > > > > > So, here are the options that currently come to mind. > > Microsoft Access 2007 (Split Back-end) - Despite what our Web Consultant > says. > > MySQL - or one of its Forks (I have no experience with MySQL) > > Local Install of Microsoft SQL Server (I have concern about the price tag > and the amount of work - seems like a large overkill for just one table) > > Microsoft SQL Server (via a paid Hosted service - we have no experience > with this approach) > > Given all of this as background, which approach would be best? > > Other options ? > > Everyone here on AccessD has more experience than I do in this realm and I > value your ideas and insights. > > Thanks, > Brad > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 25 08:03:55 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:03:55 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in VB.net and the best practices for this. Paul On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses > the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis > are very important but without the POS there is no business. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS > system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are > coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand > for Access Developers to customize in house. > > If your experience differs...? > On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > > > Hi Bill: > > > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is > probably > > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had > > their own special products. > > > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a > > particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages > > are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and > > many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, > > everything is going web based. > > > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate > > for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an > > immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen > IE > > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been > placed > > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > > oblivion. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned > SW. > > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a > > tablet or a Mac or both. > > > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google > > Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, > but > > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special > business > > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and > > billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as > heck > > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all > > day > > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that > their > > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss > a > > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server > > Express > > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different > databases, > > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 > person > > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > > > less than 20 people. > > > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > > > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there > > as > > > well. > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > > when you do not believe in it > > > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > > >> Hi John: > > >> > > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really > > >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about > twenty > > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with > > heavy > > >> usage things were really grinding. > > >> > > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > >> > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --- > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > > protection is active. > > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From RRANTHON at sentara.com Tue Mar 25 08:26:43 2014 From: RRANTHON at sentara.com (RANDALL R ANTHONY) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:26:43 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <201403251326.s2PDQr5i008013@databaseadvisors.com> Paul, This helped get me started.... http://www.informit.com/library/library.aspx?b=STY_Csharp_24hours -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:04 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in VB.net and the best practices for this. Paul On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Bill: > > Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all > businesses the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, > inventory and analysis are very important but without the POS there is no business. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND > a POS system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. > They are coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no > general demand for Access Developers to customize in house. > > If your experience differs...? > On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > > > Hi Bill: > > > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is > probably > > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company > > had their own special products. > > > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives > > on a particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary > > packages are out there built on just about every database you have > > heard of and many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable > > internet, everything is going web based. > > > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered > > appropriate for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, > > though it has an immense list of features, has suffered the same > > fate as now has befallen > IE > > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been > placed > > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > > oblivion. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or > > canned > SW. > > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and > > either a tablet or a Mac or both. > > > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use > > Google Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who > > use Excel, > but > > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special > business > > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, > > payroll, and billing... and an accountant who tells them what to > > file. They sure as > heck > > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in > > > all > > day > > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that > their > > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even > > > discuss > a > > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL > > > Server > > Express > > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different > databases, > > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 > person > > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies > > > have less than 20 people. > > > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a > > > superior solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs > > > work fine there > > as > > > well. > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it > > > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > > >> Hi John: > > >> > > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can > > >> really use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more > > >> than about > twenty > > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, > > >> with > > heavy > > >> usage things were really grinding. > > >> > > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > >> > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --- > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! > > > Antivirus protection is active. > > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -------------Disclaimer--------------- This electronic message and its contents and attachments contain information from Sentara Healthcare and is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. The information is intended to be for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message and all copies. From garykjos at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 08:36:45 2014 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 08:36:45 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that people who haven't actually used Access often have a bias against it. The "risk" of an Access DB would be possibly a corruption issue that couldn't be recovered from excepting reverting to a previous backup. With the amount of updates that would seem to not be a huge risk for your application. Assuming that these updates could be reentered somehow and are not being captured ONLY in the database without other documentation. If I were in your place, I would be using an Access backend at least to develop it. I would plan on having backups made at minimum every day with a rotating cycle of daily/weekly/monthly backups so that if some catastrophic issue was encountered you could go back generations if necessary as sometimes there could be an undetected error with something that you don't even realize there is a problem with. Sql Server Express would be my upgrade plan or where the final version would reside once the development in Access was complete or near to it. During development you are likely to be fiddling with additional fields and perhaps more tables etc. A single table? Really? Is that a well thought out design? And making those changes in the tool you are most familiar with will speed your development. On the other hand that would also be a good opportunity to learn the procedures to do this in SQL Server too. Is this a publicly held company? If you are subject to audits using Access for a business critical application might be looked at suspiciously where SQL Server, even the Express version would be better accepted by outside auditors. Good luck! GK On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 08:54:25 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 06:54:25 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form In-Reply-To: <1395700758.537224012@f351.i.mail.ru> References: <1395694083.352233622@f361.i.mail.ru> <1395700758.537224012@f351.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: No you didn't, and I also abandoned them in the solution I came up with. So far I haven't had any luck with WithEvents in 2013. The sink never seems to recognize the raised event, but I haven't been using custom classes. The subform isn't bound to the parent form. It uses a recordset for navigation (it allows a text entry to search for another record) and when it finds a match, it tells the parent form to load that record. The parent form in turn passes a key to which record the subform should be pointing to when the form first loads. Charlotte On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > Charlotte -- > > But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) > > <<< and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) recordset for the > desired record>>> > Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get > search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? > > -- Shamil > > Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > charlotte.foust at gmail.com>: > >Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL > > > >Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the people > >who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. > > I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any master/child > >links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) > >recordset for the desired record and pass the key into the loadData > routine > >on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these guys are engineers, not > >database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. > > > >Charlotte. > > > > > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru>wrote: > > > >> Hi Charlotte -- > >> > >> Why not just define a > >> > >> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray > eventArgs()) > >> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' > test > >> End Sub > >> > >> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that > >> > >> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call > >> -- Shamil > >> > >> > >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: > >> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I > >> >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and > >> >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? > >> > > >> >Charlotte > >> >-- > >> >AccessD mailing list > >> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >> >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> -- > >> AccessD mailing list > >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >-- > >AccessD mailing list > >AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > >Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 25 08:57:01 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:57:01 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Unbound_Form_Check_For_Changes?= In-Reply-To: References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <1395755821.964970711@f348.i.mail.ru> Hi Paul -- In modern .NET Windows Forms or WPF or SilverLight apps "pure unbound forms"??are rarely used for "data-driven" applications. By "data-driven" applications I mean the class of applications, which were/are usually developed using MS Access. In .NET you can "automagically" bind literally everything to the UI controls without manual coding -? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743643.aspx . What you get are bound but disconnected from back-end forms/controls. So "the only task" is to retrieve data to be displayed in disconnected bound forms/controls/store changed data to back-end. This "only task" can be 100% automatic (no any manual coding needed) or at any degree - 1% to 100% manually coded - it all depends on what back-end-to-UI mapping technologies a developer/ development team prefer, how much customization freedom they wanted to have in back-end-to-UI mapping. Thank you. -- Shamil Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:03:55 +0000 from Paul Hartland : >hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend >to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece >for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books >etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound >forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking >unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more >control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in >VB.net and the best practices for this. > >Paul > > >On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: > >> Hi Bill: >> >> Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses >> the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis >> are very important but without the POS there is no business. >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Benson" < bensonforums at gmail.com > >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >> accessd at databaseadvisors.com > >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >> >> Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS >> system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are >> coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand >> for Access Developers to customize in house. >> >> If your experience differs...? >> On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: >> <<< skipped >>> > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 08:59:13 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:59:13 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Lots of Truckers, plumbers, Website designers, hole in the walls, people who are paid on 1099s, have no automated systems Do you call ebay and PayPal a POS system? I send out Word invoices and bill for my time. I promised a friend of a friend I would (eventually) build him a driver notification tool in Access. He can only pay $500, and it has already taken me 20 hours, undertaken in fits and starts, and I am nowhere near done. He just doesn't make the money from his business that would give legs to a real IT budget and (sad for him!) I am the best Access Developer he knows, and I am none too good. Other businesses must be in this situation and custom development is way above what they think they can afford. I am convinced unless I am told differently that many of those 5 million plus "small businesses" are really small, and don't have or need or have time to run or deal with maintenance of a POS Or Payroll Or Inventory Management Or Contact Relationship Management, or any number of systems, and after them come the ones who outsource everything, and after them come the ones who buy canned programs off the shelf, or software tailored to their market. I am not sure what we're debating. I said MS Access has no appeal to a lot of businesses because large businesses fear it, small ones don't want to buy and have it customized and maintain it. On Mar 25, 2014 1:32 AM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi Bill: > > Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses > the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis > are very important but without the POS there is no business. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS > system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are > coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand > for Access Developers to customize in house. > > If your experience differs...? > On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > > > Hi Bill: > > > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is > probably > > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had > > their own special products. > > > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a > > particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages > > are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and > > many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, > > everything is going web based. > > > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate > > for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an > > immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen > IE > > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been > placed > > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > > oblivion. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned > SW. > > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a > > tablet or a Mac or both. > > > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google > > Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, > but > > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special > business > > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and > > billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as > heck > > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all > > day > > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that > their > > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss > a > > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server > > Express > > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different > databases, > > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 > person > > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > > > less than 20 people. > > > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > > > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there > > as > > > well. > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > > when you do not believe in it > > > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > > >> Hi John: > > >> > > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really > > >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about > twenty > > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with > > heavy > > >> usage things were really grinding. > > >> > > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > >> > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --- > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > > protection is active. > > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 09:01:19 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:01:19 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <1395755821.964970711@f348.i.mail.ru> References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> <1395755821.964970711@f348.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: <53318C2F.5070600@gmail.com> Shamil, How is edit collision handled? Is it the typical "The data has been edited" warning and subsequent edit discards? John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/25/2014 9:57 AM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > Hi Paul -- > > In modern .NET Windows Forms or WPF or SilverLight apps "pure unbound forms" are rarely used for "data-driven" applications. By "data-driven" applications I mean the class of applications, which were/are usually developed using MS Access. In .NET you can "automagically" bind literally everything to the UI controls without manual coding - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743643.aspx . What you get are bound but disconnected from back-end forms/controls. So "the only task" is to retrieve data to be displayed in disconnected bound forms/controls/store changed data to back-end. This "only task" can be 100% automatic (no any manual coding needed) or at any degree - 1% to 100% manually coded - it all depends on what back-end-to-UI mapping technologies a developer/ development team prefer, how much customization freedom they wanted to have in back-end-to-UI mapping. > > Thank you. > > -- Shamil > > Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:03:55 +0000 from Paul Hartland : >> hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend >> to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece >> for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books >> etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound >> forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking >> unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more >> control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in >> VB.net and the best practices for this. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill: >>> >>> Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses >>> the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis >>> are very important but without the POS there is no business. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bill Benson" < bensonforums at gmail.com > >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >>> accessd at databaseadvisors.com > >>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >>> >>> Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS >>> system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are >>> coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand >>> for Access Developers to customize in house. >>> >>> If your experience differs...? >>> On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: >>> > <<< skipped >>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 25 09:19:04 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:19:04 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Raising_events_from_a_subform_and_sinking_the?= =?utf-8?q?m_in_the_parent_form?= In-Reply-To: References: <1395700758.537224012@f351.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: <1395757144.263049032@f123.i.mail.ru> Hi Charlotte -- WithEvents could be used here, I'm sure, but I'd not recommend to use it :)? I'd code: Parent form: ========= Private Sub Form_Load() ? ? ? Me.{{subform control name}}.Form.InitSubform("{{Initial record key}}") End Sub Public Sub LoadRecord(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) ' TODO: load parent form record End Sub Subform: ======= Public Sub InitSubForm(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) ? ? ?selectRecord(recordKeyValue) End Sub Private Sub txtSearchValue_Change() ? ? ? ?If (Nz(txtSearchValue.Text, "") <> "") Then ? ? ? ? ? ? selectRecord(txtSearchValue.Text) ? ? ? ?End if End Sub Private Sub selectRecord(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) ? ? ?Me.Parent.LoadRecord(RecordKeyValue) ? ? ?' TODO: ... select record in subfom End Sub -- Shamil Tue, 25 Mar 2014 06:54:25 -0700 from Charlotte Foust : >No you didn't, and I also abandoned them in the solution I came up with. >?So far I haven't had any luck with WithEvents in 2013. The sink never >seems to recognize the raised event, but I haven't been using custom >classes. > >The subform isn't bound to the parent form. It uses a recordset for >navigation (it allows a text entry to search for another record) and when >it finds a match, it tells the parent form to load that record. The parent >form in turn passes a key to which record the subform should be pointing to >when the form first loads. > >Charlotte > > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: > >> Charlotte -- >> >> But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) >> >> <<< and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) recordset for the >> desired record>>> >> Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get >> search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? >> >> -- Shamil >> >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >> >Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL >> > >> >Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the people >> >who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than WithEvents. >> > I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any master/child >> >links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) >> >recordset for the desired record and pass the key into the loadData >> routine >> >on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these guys are engineers, not >> >database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. >> > >> >Charlotte. >> > >> > >> >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Charlotte -- >> >> >> >> Why not just define a >> >> >> >> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray >> eventArgs()) >> >> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 ' >> test >> >> End Sub >> >> >> >> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that >> >> >> >> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call >> >> -- Shamil >> >> >> >> >> >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < >> >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: >> >> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, which I >> >> >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising and >> >> >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? >> >> > >> >> >Charlotte From mcp2004 at mail.ru Tue Mar 25 09:26:46 2014 From: mcp2004 at mail.ru (=?UTF-8?B?U2FsYWtoZXRkaW5vdiBTaGFtaWw=?=) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:26:46 +0400 Subject: [AccessD] =?utf-8?q?Unbound_Form_Check_For_Changes?= In-Reply-To: <53318C2F.5070600@gmail.com> References: <1395755821.964970711@f348.i.mail.ru> <53318C2F.5070600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1395757606.9673859@f123.i.mail.ru> John -- It all depends of technology (binding source types - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743643.aspx )/ORM frameworks ( http://www.frozenelephant.com/List_Of_Dot_Net_ORM_Frameworks.html ) used in back-end-to-UI mapping - as I have noted the automation level of everything including edit collision detection/handling can be from 100% down to 0%.? -- Shamil Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:01:19 -0400 from John W Colby : >Shamil, > >How is edit collision handled? Is it the typical "The data has been edited" warning and subsequent >edit discards? > >John W. Colby > >Reality is what refuses to go away >when you do not believe in it > >On 3/25/2014 9:57 AM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: >> Hi Paul -- >> >> In modern .NET Windows Forms or WPF or SilverLight apps "pure unbound forms" are rarely used for "data-driven" applications. By "data-driven" applications I mean the class of applications, which were/are usually developed using MS Access. In .NET you can "automagically" bind literally everything to the UI controls without manual coding - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms743643.aspx . What you get are bound but disconnected from back-end forms/controls. So "the only task" is to retrieve data to be displayed in disconnected bound forms/controls/store changed data to back-end. This "only task" can be 100% automatic (no any manual coding needed) or at any degree - 1% to 100% manually coded - it all depends on what back-end-to-UI mapping technologies a developer/ development team prefer, how much customization freedom they wanted to have in back-end-to-UI mapping. >> >> Thank you. >> >> -- Shamil >> >> Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:03:55 +0000 from Paul Hartland < paul.hartland at googlemail.com >: >>> hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend >>> to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece >>> for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books >>> etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound >>> forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking >>> unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more >>> control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in >>> VB.net and the best practices for this. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bill: >>>> >>>> Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses >>>> the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis >>>> are very important but without the POS there is no business. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bill Benson" < bensonforums at gmail.com > >>>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >>>> accessd at databaseadvisors.com > >>>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >>>> >>>> Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS >>>> system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are >>>> coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand >>>> for Access Developers to customize in house. >>>> >>>> If your experience differs...? >>>> On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" < accessd at shaw.ca > wrote: >>>> >> <<< skipped >>> > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 09:27:59 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:27:59 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <53316DC2.9000507@gmail.com> References: <1986124369.9880059.1395725004264.JavaMail.root@cds018> <53316DC2.9000507@gmail.com> Message-ID: < References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <533193DF.6090808@gmail.com> Of course you are correct, many are just a couple of people and someone does everything in Excel. I would ask however why Access still exists and MS wastes their time upgrading it over and over if they weren't selling it? It is out there somewhere. I had a client in CT who handled the retirement health insurance processing for several cities. They wrote a custom database to handle that process. At the time I worked with them they had exactly 5 people. They took calls, looked up the caller in their database, discussed the issues, handled calling the insurance companies about billing problems etc. Their "clients" were OLD retirees. I made tens of thousands of dollars over many years on their system. I wrote, from scratch, a call center application for Disability Insurance Specialists in CT. A hand full of VP level execs from the insurance companies in Hartford quit and formed the company, bringing call center work for one specific company along when they started up. The data consisted of a denormalized table of disability claims. I was hired to normalize the data, and then built form / subform / data entry to build a call center app. When I was hired they had 20 employees. When I finally left they had 50 employees and handled many more company's call center work. Of course both of these were done in Access, and both of these were done in the 2003 time frame. DotNet was still just a gleam in some someone's eye. I would caution you that all folks like this ask for estimates. C# developers tend to come in and make a "$40K" bid, which just immediately kills the project. Access can often be brought up with a hand full of tables, a hand full of forms, fully functioning in a few days. Then more functionality added as time goes by. In the case of DIS, they had an existing, minimally functioning (Access) system directly editing the denormalized data. I had to create a system to normalize it into about two dozen tables, and do so such that I could "flip the switch" and they would be up and running in the new shiny app. So I worked for about 4 months getting a brand new system, complete with normalization scripts, tables to hold the normalized data, forms for data entry, and reports. As I added functionality we tested and tested. Eventually we trained the users in the new system and when ready we flipped the switch. At switch flipping time we had about 20-25 tables. By the time I left we had about 120 tables. I ended up billing close to $200K for the call center, but that was over 9 years. Added functionality, added tables, added modules, added reports, added data imports / exports. I absolutely believe that those kinds of jobs still exist. They are never easy to find, and they are always small dollars, billed monthly as the companies can afford / find the need. Can they be done in C#? Absolutely. Probably not as easily or as cheaply for the first handful of tables / forms / reports. And perhaps it is just my prejudice, but it seems like C# developers view this as "small potatoes" not worth going after. Access is truly a RAD environment. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/25/2014 9:59 AM, Bill Benson wrote: > Lots of Truckers, plumbers, Website designers, hole in the walls, people > who are paid on 1099s, have no automated systems Do you call ebay and > PayPal a POS system? I send out Word invoices and bill for my time. > > I promised a friend of a friend I would (eventually) build him a driver > notification tool in Access. He can only pay $500, and it has already taken > me 20 hours, undertaken in fits and starts, and I am nowhere near done. He > just doesn't make the money from his business that would give legs to a > real IT budget and (sad for him!) I am the best Access Developer he knows, > and I am none too good. Other businesses must be in this situation and > custom development is way above what they think they can afford. > > I am convinced unless I am told differently that many of those 5 million > plus "small businesses" are really small, and don't have or need or have > time to run or deal with maintenance of a POS Or Payroll Or Inventory > Management Or Contact Relationship Management, or any number of systems, > and after them come the ones who outsource everything, and after them come > the ones who buy canned programs off the shelf, or software tailored to > their market. > > I am not sure what we're debating. I said MS Access has no appeal to a lot > of businesses because large businesses fear it, small ones don't want to > buy and have it customized and maintain it. > > On Mar 25, 2014 1:32 AM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > >> Hi Bill: >> >> Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses >> the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis >> are very important but without the POS there is no business. >> >> Jim >> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 09:55:02 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:55:02 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <201403251326.s2PDQr5i008013@databaseadvisors.com> References: <784242757.9881986.1395725504615.JavaMail.root@cds018> <201403251326.s2PDQr5i008013@databaseadvisors.com> Message-ID: <533198C6.80507@gmail.com> You have to read carefully but on is actually called free. I think it is the left hand column, with only a few check marks. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/25/2014 9:26 AM, RANDALL R ANTHONY wrote: > Paul, > This helped get me started.... > http://www.informit.com/library/library.aspx?b=STY_Csharp_24hours > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hartland > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:04 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > hmmmmm just been reading the posts, while I am still waiting for a friend to get back to me so I can start on a sample manufacturing software piece for his company, I am looking at tiny little projects such as address books etc so that I can attempt to learn vb.net, now I have always used bound forms in Access and VB6 front-ends, but would prefer to start looking unbound, now as far as I know this means a lot more coding, but a lot more control...could anyone point me to a good section for unbound forms in VB.net and the best practices for this. > > Paul > > > On 25 March 2014 05:31, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Bill: >> >> Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all >> businesses the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, >> inventory and analysis are very important but without the POS there is no business. >> >> Jim >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Benson" >> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >> accessd at databaseadvisors.com> >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >> >> Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND >> a POS system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. >> They are coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no >> general demand for Access Developers to customize in house. >> >> If your experience differs...? >> On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill: >>> >>> I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various >>> franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is >> probably >>> a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company >>> had their own special products. >>> >>> Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives >>> on a particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary >>> packages are out there built on just about every database you have >>> heard of and many, I would bet, you have never heard of. >>> >>> In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable >>> internet, everything is going web based. >>> >>> Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered >>> appropriate for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, >>> though it has an immense list of features, has suffered the same >>> fate as now has befallen >> IE >>> and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been >> placed >>> on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from >>> oblivion. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bill Benson" >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < >>> accessd at databaseadvisors.com> >>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes >>> >>> A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or >>> canned >> SW. >>> Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and >>> either a tablet or a Mac or both. >>> >>> What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a >>> database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use >>> Google Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who >>> use Excel, >> but >>> many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special >> business >>> management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, >>> payroll, and billing... and an accountant who tells them what to >>> file. They sure as >> heck >>> aren't asking for custom development in Access. >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: >>> >>>> At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in >>>> all >>> day >>>> and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that >> their >>>> DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even >>>> discuss >> a >>>> SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL >>>> Server >>> Express >>>> limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. >>>> >>>> The thing about any company is that often there are different >> databases, >>>> with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 >> person >>>> company, there will never be 100 people in the database. >>>> >>>> Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies >>>> have less than 20 people. >>>> >>>> There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a >>>> superior solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs >>>> work fine there >>> as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it >>>> >>>> On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi John: >>>>> >>>>> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can >>>>> really use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more >>>>> than about >> twenty >>>>> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, >>>>> with >>> heavy >>>>> usage things were really grinding. >>>>> >>>>> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> --- >>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! >>>> Antivirus protection is active. >>>> http://www.avast.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -------------Disclaimer--------------- > > This electronic message and its contents and attachments contain information from Sentara Healthcare and is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. The information is intended to be for the addressee only. > > If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message and all copies. > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Tue Mar 25 10:36:52 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:36:52 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed - Azure? References: Message-ID: All, Thanks to everyone who posted their ideas and insights. I appreciate it. I am curious if anyone has worked with Windows Azure SQL Database. I have briefly looked at this approach and I am curious if it would be a good approach for a small firm. Thanks, Brad -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com on behalf of Gary Kjos Sent: Tue 3/25/2014 8:36 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed I think that people who haven't actually used Access often have a bias against it. The "risk" of an Access DB would be possibly a corruption issue that couldn't be recovered from excepting reverting to a previous backup. With the amount of updates that would seem to not be a huge risk for your application. Assuming that these updates could be reentered somehow and are not being captured ONLY in the database without other documentation. If I were in your place, I would be using an Access backend at least to develop it. I would plan on having backups made at minimum every day with a rotating cycle of daily/weekly/monthly backups so that if some catastrophic issue was encountered you could go back generations if necessary as sometimes there could be an undetected error with something that you don't even realize there is a problem with. Sql Server Express would be my upgrade plan or where the final version would reside once the development in Access was complete or near to it. During development you are likely to be fiddling with additional fields and perhaps more tables etc. A single table? Really? Is that a well thought out design? And making those changes in the tool you are most familiar with will speed your development. On the other hand that would also be a good opportunity to learn the procedures to do this in SQL Server too. Is this a publicly held company? If you are subject to audits using Access for a business critical application might be looked at suspiciously where SQL Server, even the Express version would be better accepted by outside auditors. Good luck! GK On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. Click here to report this message as spam. http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=9CDE32864E.1C65F From davidmcafee at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 11:14:56 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:14:56 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule Message-ID: So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a task/chore schedule for our 3 kids. Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to the curb) and a free week. They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular activities and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: tblTask TaskID (AN, PK, INT) Task (Varchar(25)) Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? I also need a person talbe tblPerson PersonID Person Would a junction table handle it all? tblPersonTaskJunct PKID TaskID PersonID WeekNumber ? DayNumber? Would I need another table for the trades? Any ideas? Thanks, David From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 12:26:24 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:26:24 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, a trivial seeming (but not so trivial) systen. I don't quite see how to implement the free week concept, they can't all take their free week at same time. And what happens if there are more chores than children, how is this scalable? You cannot create weeks. Thorny, I have tried already looking at it from a number of ways for about 45 minutes and actually gave up. Could you think of a point based system, suppose trash is lighter work than dishes, gets a value of 5 and dishes 10. The goal is to hit a certain number of points before earning a free week. But even this is hard to scale: how do you ensure accountability (record and respond to defects and half done chores), facilitate trading, add seasonal work. Worse, I STILL had the problem when more than one kid wanted to use their free week or banked more than one. So free weeks ought to be pre assigned, but how is that gonna fit with everyone's busy schedule? Good Luck! , it will be interesting to see how simple and elegant others' solutions can be. On Mar 25, 2014 12:16 PM, "David McAfee" wrote: > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a task/chore > schedule for our 3 kids. > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to the > curb) and a free week. > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular activities > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > tblTask > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > Task (Varchar(25)) > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > I also need a person talbe > tblPerson > PersonID > Person > > Would a junction table handle it all? > tblPersonTaskJunct > PKID > TaskID > PersonID > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > David > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Tue Mar 25 12:45:28 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 10:45:28 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David: I'd put free week as a task. But actually, I'd have the calendar each day instead of by the week so in tblPersonTaskJunct there would be a record for each day/person/task combination. In the FE I'd have a function that assigns a person to a task for an entire week (actually you could have starting date and ending date - that would give you more flexibility). Then for trades of a day, the user could just change the name of the person on that day. Giving the original person on that task another day/task would be up to the user. Of course, everybody has to play by the rules and not go into the system and give all their tasks to someone else. But I'd keep the BE as simply as possible - atomic: like keep the values like date as days instead of weeks - and put all your 'business rules' in the front end. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:15 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a task/chore schedule for our 3 kids. Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to the curb) and a free week. They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular activities and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: tblTask TaskID (AN, PK, INT) Task (Varchar(25)) Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? I also need a person talbe tblPerson PersonID Person Would a junction table handle it all? tblPersonTaskJunct PKID TaskID PersonID WeekNumber ? DayNumber? Would I need another table for the trades? Any ideas? Thanks, David -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 25 13:01:36 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:01:36 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, As for everything (usually) you can make this quite simple or it could become a lot more complex, I used to work for a company where we assigned people to jobs, and this in it's simple form was based around three tables, something like you have already thought of tblJobs JobNumber (int) JobType (nvarchar(50)) 1 Dishes 2 Trash 3 Free tblEmployee EmployeeID (int) EmployeeName (nvarchar(75)) 1001 Child 1 1002 Child 2 1003 Child 3 tblAssigned EmployeeID (int) WeekCommencing (date/time) Mon (int) Tues (int) Wed (int) Thurs (int) Fri (int) Sat (int) Sun (int) 1001 24/03/2014 1 2 1 3 3 2 3 1002 24/03/2014 2 1 3 1 2 3 3 1003 24/03/2014 3 3 2 2 1 1 3 Then have a form which allowed you to select the employee (or child in your case), this would then show a grid using tblAssigned to show (x) amount of weeks, then in each day there would be a code (in this example JobNumber). This is a simplistic idea of how one of my companies scheduling worked, but just an idea for you. Paul On 25 March 2014 17:26, Bill Benson wrote: > David, a trivial seeming (but not so trivial) systen. I don't quite see how > to implement the free week concept, they can't all take their free week at > same time. And what happens if there are more chores than children, how is > this scalable? You cannot create weeks. > > Thorny, I have tried already looking at it from a number of ways for about > 45 minutes and actually gave up. > > Could you think of a point based system, suppose trash is lighter work than > dishes, gets a value of 5 and dishes 10. The goal is to hit a certain > number of points before earning a free week. But even this is hard to > scale: how do you ensure accountability (record and respond to defects and > half done chores), facilitate trading, add seasonal work. Worse, I STILL > had the problem when more than one kid wanted to use their free week or > banked more than one. So free weeks ought to be pre assigned, but how is > that gonna fit with everyone's busy schedule? > > Good Luck! , it will be interesting to see how simple and elegant others' > solutions can be. > > On Mar 25, 2014 12:16 PM, "David McAfee" wrote: > > > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a > task/chore > > schedule for our 3 kids. > > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to the > > curb) and a free week. > > > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular > activities > > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one > > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another > > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > > > tblTask > > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > > Task (Varchar(25)) > > > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > > > > I also need a person talbe > > tblPerson > > PersonID > > Person > > > > Would a junction table handle it all? > > tblPersonTaskJunct > > PKID > > TaskID > > PersonID > > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Thanks, > > David > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 13:01:40 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:01:40 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not all tasks are daily. That is why I went for points. On Mar 25, 2014 1:46 PM, "Rocky Smolin" wrote: > David: > > I'd put free week as a task. But actually, I'd have the calendar each day > instead of by the week so in tblPersonTaskJunct there would be a record for > each day/person/task combination. > > In the FE I'd have a function that assigns a person to a task for an entire > week (actually you could have starting date and ending date - that would > give you more flexibility). > > Then for trades of a day, the user could just change the name of the person > on that day. Giving the original person on that task another day/task would > be up to the user. > > Of course, everybody has to play by the rules and not go into the system > and > give all their tasks to someone else. > > But I'd keep the BE as simply as possible - atomic: like keep the values > like date as days instead of weeks - and put all your 'business rules' in > the front end. > > R > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:15 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule > > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a task/chore > schedule for our 3 kids. > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to the > curb) and a free week. > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular activities > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > tblTask > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > Task (Varchar(25)) > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > I also need a person talbe > tblPerson > PersonID > Person > > Would a junction table handle it all? > tblPersonTaskJunct > PKID > TaskID > PersonID > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > David > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From davidmcafee at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 13:41:16 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:41:16 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed - Azure? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We're using it at work. Well, at least the place that I'll be working at for the next week (I start a new job next week). We used ADP's very heavily here and with the release of Office 2013, they have dropped support for ADPs. We are in the process of moving all of our relational DBs up to SQL Azure and our transactional DBs up to NoSQL. Our front ends are moving to OOP style programming using HTML5, C#, Web services, Javascript (Knockout, Jquery). There really is no major difference for us when dealing with Azure, since we were using web services to talk to SQL. I'm not sure how hard it would be if you are planning on staying with Access as a FE for your SQL db. I don't know much about the pricing structure, but believe it is a few dollars a month. David On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > Thanks to everyone who posted their ideas and insights. I appreciate it. > > I am curious if anyone has worked with Windows Azure SQL Database. > I have briefly looked at this approach and I am curious if it would be a > good approach for a small firm. > > Thanks, > Brad > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com on behalf of Gary Kjos > Sent: Tue 3/25/2014 8:36 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed > > I think that people who haven't actually used Access often have a bias > against it. The "risk" of an Access DB would be possibly a corruption issue > that couldn't be recovered from excepting reverting to a previous backup. > With the amount of updates that would seem to not be a huge risk for your > application. Assuming that these updates could be reentered somehow and are > not being captured ONLY in the database without other documentation. > > If I were in your place, I would be using an Access backend at least to > develop it. I would plan on having backups made at minimum every day with a > rotating cycle of daily/weekly/monthly backups so that if some catastrophic > issue was encountered you could go back generations if necessary as > sometimes there could be an undetected error with something that you don't > even realize there is a problem with. > > Sql Server Express would be my upgrade plan or where the final version > would reside once the development in Access was complete or near to it. > During development you are likely to be fiddling with additional fields and > perhaps more tables etc. A single table? Really? Is that a well thought > out design? And making those changes in the tool you are most familiar > with will speed your development. On the other hand that would also be a > good opportunity to learn the procedures to do this in SQL Server too. > > Is this a publicly held company? If you are subject to audits using Access > for a business critical application might be looked at suspiciously where > SQL Server, even the Express version would be better accepted by outside > auditors. > > Good luck! > > GK > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Brad Marks >wrote: > > > All, > > > > I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. > > > > > -- > Gary Kjos > garykjos at gmail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. > Click here to report this message as spam. > http://h0stname/cgi-bin/learn-msg.cgi?id=9CDE32864E.1C65F > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From davidmcafee at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 13:59:35 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:59:35 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like this design idea, but it looks like I would have to be constantly planning out the schedule. Maybe I can whip out the schedule for 3 months at a time. I'm actually going to use either a web front end (HTML5 & JQuery Mobile) or (iPhone & Android) app based FE and a web based SQL Server BE, but I will do the initial design in Access since it is so easy to kick stuff out quickly. I'm thinking that a way to simplify it right now is to not allow trading of days, but I'd still like to plan for it. Maybe the ability for a user to select someone else for a certain job number and if the other person agrees, the task is switched to them. That way I am not also dealing with what other day/task has to match to the traded task. On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Paul Hartland < paul.hartland at googlemail.com> wrote: > David, > > As for everything (usually) you can make this quite simple or it could > become a lot more complex, I used to work for a company where we assigned > people to jobs, and this in it's simple form was based around three tables, > something like you have already thought of > > tblJobs > JobNumber (int) JobType (nvarchar(50)) > 1 Dishes > 2 Trash > 3 Free > > tblEmployee > EmployeeID (int) EmployeeName (nvarchar(75)) > 1001 Child 1 > 1002 Child 2 > 1003 Child 3 > > tblAssigned > EmployeeID (int) WeekCommencing (date/time) Mon (int) Tues (int) Wed > (int) Thurs (int) Fri (int) Sat (int) Sun (int) > 1001 24/03/2014 1 > 2 1 3 3 2 3 > 1002 24/03/2014 2 > 1 3 1 2 3 3 > 1003 24/03/2014 3 > 3 2 2 1 1 3 > > Then have a form which allowed you to select the employee (or child in your > case), this would then show a grid using tblAssigned to show (x) amount of > weeks, then in each day there would be a code (in this example JobNumber). > This is a simplistic idea of how one of my companies scheduling worked, > but just an idea for you. > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 March 2014 17:26, Bill Benson wrote: > > > David, a trivial seeming (but not so trivial) systen. I don't quite see > how > > to implement the free week concept, they can't all take their free week > at > > same time. And what happens if there are more chores than children, how > is > > this scalable? You cannot create weeks. > > > > Thorny, I have tried already looking at it from a number of ways for > about > > 45 minutes and actually gave up. > > > > Could you think of a point based system, suppose trash is lighter work > than > > dishes, gets a value of 5 and dishes 10. The goal is to hit a certain > > number of points before earning a free week. But even this is hard to > > scale: how do you ensure accountability (record and respond to defects > and > > half done chores), facilitate trading, add seasonal work. Worse, I STILL > > had the problem when more than one kid wanted to use their free week or > > banked more than one. So free weeks ought to be pre assigned, but how is > > that gonna fit with everyone's busy schedule? > > > > Good Luck! , it will be interesting to see how simple and elegant others' > > solutions can be. > > > > On Mar 25, 2014 12:16 PM, "David McAfee" wrote: > > > > > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a > > task/chore > > > schedule for our 3 kids. > > > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to > the > > > curb) and a free week. > > > > > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular > > activities > > > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for one > > > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another > > > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > > > > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > > > > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > > > > > tblTask > > > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > > > Task (Varchar(25)) > > > > > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > > > > > > > I also need a person talbe > > > tblPerson > > > PersonID > > > Person > > > > > > Would a junction table handle it all? > > > tblPersonTaskJunct > > > PKID > > > TaskID > > > PersonID > > > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > > > > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > David > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From charlotte.foust at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 14:09:07 2014 From: charlotte.foust at gmail.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:09:07 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Raising events from a subform and sinking them in the parent form In-Reply-To: <1395757144.263049032@f123.i.mail.ru> References: <1395700758.537224012@f351.i.mail.ru> <1395757144.263049032@f123.i.mail.ru> Message-ID: That's pretty much what I wound up doing, Shamil. Thanks. Charlotte On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Salakhetdinov Shamil wrote: > Hi Charlotte -- > > WithEvents could be used here, I'm sure, but I'd not recommend to use it > :) > > I'd code: > > Parent form: > ========= > > Private Sub Form_Load() > Me.{{subform control name}}.Form.InitSubform("{{Initial record > key}}") > End Sub Public Sub LoadRecord(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) > ' TODO: load parent form record > End Sub > > > Subform: > ======= > > Public Sub InitSubForm(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) > selectRecord(recordKeyValue) > End Sub > > Private Sub txtSearchValue_Change() > If (Nz(txtSearchValue.Text, "") <> "") Then > selectRecord(txtSearchValue.Text) > End if > End Sub Private Sub selectRecord(ByVal recordKeyValue As String) > Me.Parent.LoadRecord(RecordKeyValue) > ' TODO: ... select record in subfom > End Sub > > -- Shamil > > Tue, 25 Mar 2014 06:54:25 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > charlotte.foust at gmail.com>: > >No you didn't, and I also abandoned them in the solution I came up with. > > So far I haven't had any luck with WithEvents in 2013. The sink never > >seems to recognize the raised event, but I haven't been using custom > >classes. > > > >The subform isn't bound to the parent form. It uses a recordset for > >navigation (it allows a text entry to search for another record) and when > >it finds a match, it tells the parent form to load that record. The > parent > >form in turn passes a key to which record the subform should be pointing > to > >when the form first loads. > > > >Charlotte > > > > > >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < mcp2004 at mail.ru>wrote: > > > >> Charlotte -- > >> > >> But I haven't proposed to use WithEvents, have I? :) > >> > >> <<< and allowed the subform to search in it's (snapshot) recordset for > the > >> desired record>>> > >> Well, subform loads before parent form but how does your subform get > >> search/filtering criteria to search its (snapshot) recordset by? > >> > >> -- Shamil > >> > >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:27:29 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: > >> >Because I was determined to make it work the other way, of course! LOL > >> > > >> >Actually, I eventually worked out that way of doing it so that the > people > >> >who will be maintaining it are more likely to understand than > WithEvents. > >> > I added a loaddata routine to the parent form, removed any > master/child > >> >links on the subform, and allowed the subform to search in it's > (snapshot) > >> >recordset for the desired record and pass the key into the loadData > >> routine > >> >on the parent form. It isn't elegant but these guys are engineers, not > >> >database developers, and they'll be able to understand this. > >> > > >> >Charlotte. > >> > > >> > > >> >On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Salakhetdinov Shamil < > mcp2004 at mail.ru >wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Charlotte -- > >> >> > >> >> Why not just define a > >> >> > >> >> Public Sub ProcessEvent(ByVal eventName As String, ParamArray > >> eventArgs()) > >> >> MsgBox eventName & ", Params Count = " & UBound(eventArgs) + 1 > ' > >> test > >> >> End Sub > >> >> > >> >> in the Parent form and call it from a subform like that > >> >> > >> >> Me.Parent.ProcessEvent "Test event", "Prm1", 123.45 ' test call > >> >> -- Shamil > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:23:54 -0700 from Charlotte Foust < > >> >> charlotte.foust at gmail.com >: > >> >> >I know I've done this before but it probably required a class, > which I > >> >> >hesitate to use in this app. Has anyone else had problems raising > and > >> >> >sinking events between forms in Access 2010/2013? > >> >> > > >> >> >Charlotte > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Tue Mar 25 14:14:48 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:14:48 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We used to schedule employees work for up to 7 weeks in advance, so you would have a week row in tblAssigned for each employee, and have a little background function that would constantly ensure that there were at least 7 weeks of scheduling available for each employee. You could probably add another task called Swap, then the child or yourself in the first instance could change the code to Swap and when either of the other children open the app there could be an alert that says Child X needs to swap a task on Day X, with yes and not buttons, if the child clicks yes then swap the codes for that child on that day, you will have to think about if a child wants to swap, but neither of the others want to. Paul On 25 March 2014 18:59, David McAfee wrote: > I like this design idea, but it looks like I would have to be constantly > planning out the schedule. > > Maybe I can whip out the schedule for 3 months at a time. > > I'm actually going to use either a web front end (HTML5 & JQuery Mobile) > or (iPhone & Android) app based FE and a web based SQL Server BE, but I > will do the initial design in Access since it is so easy to kick stuff out > quickly. > > > I'm thinking that a way to simplify it right now is to not allow trading of > days, but I'd still like to plan for it. > > Maybe the ability for a user to select someone else for a certain job > number and if the other person agrees, the task is switched to them. > > That way I am not also dealing with what other day/task has to match to the > traded task. > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Paul Hartland < > paul.hartland at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > David, > > > > As for everything (usually) you can make this quite simple or it could > > become a lot more complex, I used to work for a company where we assigned > > people to jobs, and this in it's simple form was based around three > tables, > > something like you have already thought of > > > > tblJobs > > JobNumber (int) JobType (nvarchar(50)) > > 1 Dishes > > 2 Trash > > 3 Free > > > > tblEmployee > > EmployeeID (int) EmployeeName (nvarchar(75)) > > 1001 Child 1 > > 1002 Child 2 > > 1003 Child 3 > > > > tblAssigned > > EmployeeID (int) WeekCommencing (date/time) Mon (int) Tues (int) Wed > > (int) Thurs (int) Fri (int) Sat (int) Sun (int) > > 1001 24/03/2014 1 > > 2 1 3 3 2 3 > > 1002 24/03/2014 2 > > 1 3 1 2 3 3 > > 1003 24/03/2014 3 > > 3 2 2 1 1 3 > > > > Then have a form which allowed you to select the employee (or child in > your > > case), this would then show a grid using tblAssigned to show (x) amount > of > > weeks, then in each day there would be a code (in this example > JobNumber). > > This is a simplistic idea of how one of my companies scheduling worked, > > but just an idea for you. > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 March 2014 17:26, Bill Benson wrote: > > > > > David, a trivial seeming (but not so trivial) systen. I don't quite see > > how > > > to implement the free week concept, they can't all take their free week > > at > > > same time. And what happens if there are more chores than children, how > > is > > > this scalable? You cannot create weeks. > > > > > > Thorny, I have tried already looking at it from a number of ways for > > about > > > 45 minutes and actually gave up. > > > > > > Could you think of a point based system, suppose trash is lighter work > > than > > > dishes, gets a value of 5 and dishes 10. The goal is to hit a certain > > > number of points before earning a free week. But even this is hard to > > > scale: how do you ensure accountability (record and respond to defects > > and > > > half done chores), facilitate trading, add seasonal work. Worse, I > STILL > > > had the problem when more than one kid wanted to use their free week or > > > banked more than one. So free weeks ought to be pre assigned, but how > is > > > that gonna fit with everyone's busy schedule? > > > > > > Good Luck! , it will be interesting to see how simple and elegant > others' > > > solutions can be. > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2014 12:16 PM, "David McAfee" > wrote: > > > > > > > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a > > > task/chore > > > > schedule for our 3 kids. > > > > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it to > > the > > > > curb) and a free week. > > > > > > > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular > > > activities > > > > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for > one > > > > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for another > > > > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > > > > > > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > > > > > > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > > > > > > > tblTask > > > > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > > > > Task (Varchar(25)) > > > > > > > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > > > > > > > > > > I also need a person talbe > > > > tblPerson > > > > PersonID > > > > Person > > > > > > > > Would a junction table handle it all? > > > > tblPersonTaskJunct > > > > PKID > > > > TaskID > > > > PersonID > > > > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > > > > > > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > David > > > > -- > > > > AccessD mailing list > > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Hartland > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 14:27:05 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:27:05 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know I used to procrastinate doing my chores, the longer I waited the more difficult they became to knock out (dishes, laundry)... and increasingly hard to sell to others. If these tasks are really getting done by the day, hats off to your household. I have seen dishes pile up for 2 or 3 days. A really over engineered approach to people getting work done lol, and no one has informed me how you are going to implement the free week and still have work get done... and now this is a DAILY schedule? Why free weeks and not free days? Love to watch this building, do follow up with how it worked in practice once built David. On Mar 25, 2014 3:16 PM, "Paul Hartland" wrote: > We used to schedule employees work for up to 7 weeks in advance, so you > would have a week row in tblAssigned for each employee, and have a little > background function that would constantly ensure that there were at least 7 > weeks of scheduling available for each employee. You could probably add > another task called Swap, then the child or yourself in the first instance > could change the code to Swap and when either of the other children open > the app there could be an alert that says Child X needs to swap a task on > Day X, with yes and not buttons, if the child clicks yes then swap the > codes for that child on that day, you will have to think about if a child > wants to swap, but neither of the others want to. > > Paul > > > On 25 March 2014 18:59, David McAfee wrote: > > > I like this design idea, but it looks like I would have to be constantly > > planning out the schedule. > > > > Maybe I can whip out the schedule for 3 months at a time. > > > > I'm actually going to use either a web front end (HTML5 & JQuery Mobile) > > or (iPhone & Android) app based FE and a web based SQL Server BE, but I > > will do the initial design in Access since it is so easy to kick stuff > out > > quickly. > > > > > > I'm thinking that a way to simplify it right now is to not allow trading > of > > days, but I'd still like to plan for it. > > > > Maybe the ability for a user to select someone else for a certain job > > number and if the other person agrees, the task is switched to them. > > > > That way I am not also dealing with what other day/task has to match to > the > > traded task. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Paul Hartland < > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > David, > > > > > > As for everything (usually) you can make this quite simple or it could > > > become a lot more complex, I used to work for a company where we > assigned > > > people to jobs, and this in it's simple form was based around three > > tables, > > > something like you have already thought of > > > > > > tblJobs > > > JobNumber (int) JobType (nvarchar(50)) > > > 1 Dishes > > > 2 Trash > > > 3 Free > > > > > > tblEmployee > > > EmployeeID (int) EmployeeName (nvarchar(75)) > > > 1001 Child 1 > > > 1002 Child 2 > > > 1003 Child 3 > > > > > > tblAssigned > > > EmployeeID (int) WeekCommencing (date/time) Mon (int) Tues (int) > Wed > > > (int) Thurs (int) Fri (int) Sat (int) Sun (int) > > > 1001 24/03/2014 1 > > > 2 1 3 3 2 3 > > > 1002 24/03/2014 2 > > > 1 3 1 2 3 3 > > > 1003 24/03/2014 3 > > > 3 2 2 1 1 3 > > > > > > Then have a form which allowed you to select the employee (or child in > > your > > > case), this would then show a grid using tblAssigned to show (x) amount > > of > > > weeks, then in each day there would be a code (in this example > > JobNumber). > > > This is a simplistic idea of how one of my companies scheduling > worked, > > > but just an idea for you. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 March 2014 17:26, Bill Benson wrote: > > > > > > > David, a trivial seeming (but not so trivial) systen. I don't quite > see > > > how > > > > to implement the free week concept, they can't all take their free > week > > > at > > > > same time. And what happens if there are more chores than children, > how > > > is > > > > this scalable? You cannot create weeks. > > > > > > > > Thorny, I have tried already looking at it from a number of ways for > > > about > > > > 45 minutes and actually gave up. > > > > > > > > Could you think of a point based system, suppose trash is lighter > work > > > than > > > > dishes, gets a value of 5 and dishes 10. The goal is to hit a certain > > > > number of points before earning a free week. But even this is hard to > > > > scale: how do you ensure accountability (record and respond to > defects > > > and > > > > half done chores), facilitate trading, add seasonal work. Worse, I > > STILL > > > > had the problem when more than one kid wanted to use their free week > or > > > > banked more than one. So free weeks ought to be pre assigned, but how > > is > > > > that gonna fit with everyone's busy schedule? > > > > > > > > Good Luck! , it will be interesting to see how simple and elegant > > others' > > > > solutions can be. > > > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2014 12:16 PM, "David McAfee" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > So, I'm playing around with the idea of making a database for a > > > > task/chore > > > > > schedule for our 3 kids. > > > > > Right now they rotate between dishes, trash (inside and taking it > to > > > the > > > > > curb) and a free week. > > > > > > > > > > They all have busy schedules with school, work, extra curricular > > > > activities > > > > > and whatever else they might have time for. So a need may arise for > > one > > > > > person to "request" a trade of a day or the complete week for > another > > > > > person. The other person would, obviously, have to approve it. > > > > > > > > > > I having a bit of trouble coming up with the table schema. > > > > > > > > > > Obviously we would have a table of tasks/chores: > > > > > > > > > > tblTask > > > > > TaskID (AN, PK, INT) > > > > > Task (Varchar(25)) > > > > > > > > > > Sould the Free week be listed as a task for simplicity? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also need a person talbe > > > > > tblPerson > > > > > PersonID > > > > > Person > > > > > > > > > > Would a junction table handle it all? > > > > > tblPersonTaskJunct > > > > > PKID > > > > > TaskID > > > > > PersonID > > > > > WeekNumber ? DayNumber? > > > > > > > > > > Would I need another table for the trades? > > > > > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > David > > > > > -- > > > > > AccessD mailing list > > > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > AccessD mailing list > > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Paul Hartland > > > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > -- > Paul Hartland > paul.hartland at googlemail.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 25 14:38:23 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:38:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2044363265.10343778.1395776303882.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: That is true. A business has to be a certain size and have a certain volume of sales before invoicing and the subsequent POS type system is important. I have found that a custom POS system usually runs between 5 and 10K. Few businesses can afford to drop that amount of cash, at one time, so they limp along with some Office version, usually unlicensed, using the word processor, spreadsheet and sometimes even the database to substitute for a real POS system. (I usually like to get such a client either a real licensed copy or install a LibreOffice version.) Over the years I have built a number of systems for trucking companies and interesting enough my last major invoicing (POS) system was for a plumbing company. True EBay and PayPal do not show the traditional, at the counter sales system but rest assured, even though their business model is over the internet, every transaction you do with them is being recorded and billed appropriately...and you can download an invoice from them. The truth is that many businesses are small enough that they do not need all the full business system in their company but one day the IRS will come a knocking and if there are insufficient record keeping, it can get very expensive. I have spent many days, over the years, in the offices of the Income tax bureau, for myself and sometimes for clients, being grilled for receipts and documentation. Well ordered Accounts payable and receivable printouts are mandatory...fortunately this is one thing I learned very early in my career...my first major programming gig, after I went free-lance, was designing a full custom system, for a chartered accountant who owned a wholesale book store. Aside: A good friend of ours, a singer, had not kept her receipts for costumes and travel expenses and as far as I know she is still paying off income tax debts. Now she pays an accountant to keep record of all her profits and expenses. Considering that she barely scrapes by, it was a hard lesson learned. All that said, every business needs a good invoicing system but very few small businesses are willing to make the investment but the truth is, that a good POS/invoicing system is the cost of doing and staying in business. Over the years I have been called in to make many a MS Access database tracking systems and unfortunately it is after a company has been losing money, for years, from poor record keeping. In summary, there is lots of businesses who could use a good business tracking system and if you can assemble or boilerplate a system (MS Access) together fast and cheap they would be interested. If you hope to be able to build a extensive well paid custom system for clients, those clients can be few and far between and it takes a number of years to build up a reputation. Unfortunately, many well heeled clients, think MS Access is little more than a toy. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:59:13 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes Lots of Truckers, plumbers, Website designers, hole in the walls, people who are paid on 1099s, have no automated systems Do you call ebay and PayPal a POS system? I send out Word invoices and bill for my time. I promised a friend of a friend I would (eventually) build him a driver notification tool in Access. He can only pay $500, and it has already taken me 20 hours, undertaken in fits and starts, and I am nowhere near done. He just doesn't make the money from his business that would give legs to a real IT budget and (sad for him!) I am the best Access Developer he knows, and I am none too good. Other businesses must be in this situation and custom development is way above what they think they can afford. I am convinced unless I am told differently that many of those 5 million plus "small businesses" are really small, and don't have or need or have time to run or deal with maintenance of a POS Or Payroll Or Inventory Management Or Contact Relationship Management, or any number of systems, and after them come the ones who outsource everything, and after them come the ones who buy canned programs off the shelf, or software tailored to their market. I am not sure what we're debating. I said MS Access has no appeal to a lot of businesses because large businesses fear it, small ones don't want to buy and have it customized and maintain it. On Mar 25, 2014 1:32 AM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi Bill: > > Correct me if I am wrong but are not the major systems in all businesses > the POS. Accounting, advertising, human resources, inventory and analysis > are very important but without the POS there is no business. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:49:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > Jim, Maybe I was not clear, I am saying there is hardly a need BEYOND a POS > system and most of the ones I have seen are not MS Access based. They are > coded up and maintained as canned solutions and there is no general demand > for Access Developers to customize in house. > > If your experience differs...? > On Mar 24, 2014 9:51 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > > > Hi Bill: > > > > I made my livelihood, for almost ten years supporting various > > franchises...none of them could do without a POS system...there is > probably > > a hundred different flavours of POS systems out there. Every company had > > their own special products. > > > > Some of the senior company programmers had worked their entire lives on a > > particular product version...it is amazing how many proprietary packages > > are out there built on just about every database you have heard of and > > many, I would bet, you have never heard of. > > > > In the bigger centres, or any place where there is reliable internet, > > everything is going web based. > > > > Unfortunately, MS Access has never managed to be considered appropriate > > for either corporate desktops or the web. The product, though it has an > > immense list of features, has suffered the same fate as now has befallen > IE > > and Windows 8.x. Once, the curse of the developer community has been > placed > > on a product no amount of advertising dollars can bring it back from > > oblivion. > > > > Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Benson" > > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:23:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes > > > > A huge number of businesses use outsourced IT, no IT at all, or canned > SW. > > Many would say that they survive on web mail, a smartphone, and either a > > tablet or a Mac or both. > > > > What does being a small business necessarily have to do with using a > > database, a lot tools are pay as you go for them... or they use Google > > Docs. I know people who use Word as their database, more who use Excel, > but > > many medical practices and shopkeepers, cab companies- use special > business > > management sw for their industry including contact mgt, POS, payroll, and > > billing... and an accountant who tells them what to file. They sure as > heck > > aren't asking for custom development in Access. > > > > On Mar 24, 2014 7:23 PM, "John W Colby" wrote: > > > > > At the insurance company call center I wrote, they had 25 users in all > > day > > > and no sign of slowness. Their problem became (after 9 years) that > their > > > DATA outgrew the MDB containers. And yet they refused to even discuss > a > > > SQL Server express solution. Of course at that time the SQL Server > > Express > > > limited you to 2 gig containers which was not much help. > > > > > > The thing about any company is that often there are different > databases, > > > with different usage patterns. It is pretty certain that in a 100 > person > > > company, there will never be 100 people in the database. > > > > > > Furthermore the numbers say that over 4 million of those companies have > > > less than 20 people. > > > > > > There is simply no argument that SQL Server Express would be a superior > > > solution, even for these very small companies, but MDBs work fine there > > as > > > well. > > > > > > John W. Colby > > > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > > when you do not believe in it > > > > > > On 3/24/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > > > > > >> Hi John: > > >> > > >> Valid numbers but what is the maximum number of people that can really > > >> use a bound version of the MDB. I have never seen more than about > twenty > > >> people (maybe less) and even at times, with that small number, with > > heavy > > >> usage things were really grinding. > > >> > > >> For the big numbers in data and users, I am still a real ADO fan. > > >> > > >> Jim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --- > > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > > > protection is active. > > > http://www.avast.com > > > > > > -- > > > AccessD mailing list > > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 25 14:57:03 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:57:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1505437315.10358039.1395777423352.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: Keeping date and time fields can be very useful. Traditionally, I use a single character to signify a records progress or activity state. This allows records set certain ways to be queried out very quickly. I also like to archive records, through over-night processes, that have been completed, for what ever reason, into separate tables. It all keeps the working tables lean and fast....and if your system has a client across the counter every second counts. The downside is that summary reporting, like month-end accounts, can be slower, as records must be pulled and assembled from multiple tables but a few extra seconds are then irrelevant. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:27:59 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes < References: Message-ID: My son tends to be the procrastinator when it comes to doing chores. :) The older two like to do the dishes the next morning. We've told them they need to be done that night. I hate having dirty dishes left out overnight. When it was one kid, life was easy. My son moved in with us last year, still easy to keep track of. My daughter moved in in December, so now all of our teens are under one roof. :) Having three rotate between those two jobs is pretty easy, but there are still times of uncertainty (at least for me). This morning I was about to leave and the trash & recycling in the kitchen were very full. I couldn't remember who's task it was. :) Last week my youngest was in a play and the two weeks prior to it were "Hell week", so she was leaving at 6:50AM and getting home from school just before 10PM. I'm sure she would have loved to have traded her free week with someone else. She did end up coming home, doing the dishes, any remaining homework then sleep. :S They have sleep overs, stay at our Ex's house sometimes and need to handle busy weeks on their own. They are so busy at times that they don't see each other. I figure an app on their phone will help. I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress. Heck if it works out, I may even put it on the market place :P Thanks again, D On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > I know I used to procrastinate doing my chores, the longer I waited the > more difficult they became to knock out (dishes, laundry)... and > increasingly hard to sell to others. > > If these tasks are really getting done by the day, hats off to your > household. I have seen dishes pile up for 2 or 3 days. > > A really over engineered approach to people getting work done lol, and no > one has informed me how you are going to implement the free week and still > have work get done... and now this is a DAILY schedule? Why free weeks and > not free days? > > Love to watch this building, do follow up with how it worked in practice > once built David. > On Mar 25, 2014 3:16 PM, "Paul Hartland" > wrote: > From davidmcafee at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 15:52:10 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:52:10 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh and to answer your other questions... I plan to list the free week as another task. They are daily tasks, but the same task to each person is assigned from Monday to Sunday. So basically three people are revolving around two actual tasks, so we implemented a 3rd "free" task. If another task comes up, I can simply rename the free task as everything will be normalized and only using the task ID. Stuff like beds and laundry are up to them, they don't affect us or their siblings as they each have their own room. Not to mention, they don't like to smell, so they are on top of those tasks. :) On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 1:35 PM, David McAfee wrote: > My son tends to be the procrastinator when it comes to doing chores. :) > > The older two like to do the dishes the next morning. > We've told them they need to be done that night. > > I hate having dirty dishes left out overnight. > > When it was one kid, life was easy. > My son moved in with us last year, still easy to keep track of. > > My daughter moved in in December, so now all of our teens are under one > roof. :) > Having three rotate between those two jobs is pretty easy, but there are > still times of uncertainty (at least for me). > > This morning I was about to leave and the trash & recycling in the kitchen > were very full. > I couldn't remember who's task it was. :) > > Last week my youngest was in a play and the two weeks prior to it were > "Hell week", > so she was leaving at 6:50AM and getting home from school just before 10PM. > > I'm sure she would have loved to have traded her free week with someone > else. > She did end up coming home, doing the dishes, any remaining homework then > sleep. :S > > They have sleep overs, stay at our Ex's house sometimes and need to handle > busy weeks on their own. > They are so busy at times that they don't see each other. I figure an app > on their phone will help. > > I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress. Heck if it works out, I may > even put it on the market place :P > > Thanks again, > > D > From bensonforums at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 17:13:01 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:13:01 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there anyone who would agree that a free week is just a flag in the personweek cross table that says Off? I mean I cannot see it needing to be a task. On Mar 25, 2014 4:53 PM, "David McAfee" wrote: > Oh and to answer your other questions... I plan to list the free week as > another task. > > They are daily tasks, but the same task to each person is assigned from > Monday to Sunday. > > So basically three people are revolving around two actual tasks, so we > implemented a 3rd "free" task. > If another task comes up, I can simply rename the free task as everything > will be normalized and only using the task ID. > > Stuff like beds and laundry are up to them, they don't affect us or their > siblings as they each have their own room. > Not to mention, they don't like to smell, so they are on top of those > tasks. :) > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 1:35 PM, David McAfee > wrote: > > > My son tends to be the procrastinator when it comes to doing chores. :) > > > > The older two like to do the dishes the next morning. > > We've told them they need to be done that night. > > > > I hate having dirty dishes left out overnight. > > > > When it was one kid, life was easy. > > My son moved in with us last year, still easy to keep track of. > > > > My daughter moved in in December, so now all of our teens are under one > > roof. :) > > Having three rotate between those two jobs is pretty easy, but there are > > still times of uncertainty (at least for me). > > > > This morning I was about to leave and the trash & recycling in the > kitchen > > were very full. > > I couldn't remember who's task it was. :) > > > > Last week my youngest was in a play and the two weeks prior to it were > > "Hell week", > > so she was leaving at 6:50AM and getting home from school just before > 10PM. > > > > I'm sure she would have loved to have traded her free week with someone > > else. > > She did end up coming home, doing the dishes, any remaining homework then > > sleep. :S > > > > They have sleep overs, stay at our Ex's house sometimes and need to > handle > > busy weeks on their own. > > They are so busy at times that they don't see each other. I figure an app > > on their phone will help. > > > > I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress. Heck if it works out, I > may > > even put it on the market place :P > > > > Thanks again, > > > > D > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 21:39:23 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:39:23 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite Message-ID: <53323DDB.7010504@gmail.com> Does anyone know how to package up sql server lite for distribution and installation? If I start to write an unbound framework, writing it against SQL Server Express is the optimum scenario. The reader will not necessarily have SQL Server installed already. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Tue Mar 25 23:04:51 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:04:51 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite In-Reply-To: <53323DDB.7010504@gmail.com> References: <53323DDB.7010504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F1F587598714AD3A581436DD2AFBA5C@XPS> John, Two basic approaches: 1. Include it on distribution and let the user install on their own based on instructions you provide. Then have your app ask for the instance. 2. Do it as part of the apps install: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd981032.aspx Which gets a little more complex. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W Colby Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:39 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite Does anyone know how to package up sql server lite for distribution and installation? If I start to write an unbound framework, writing it against SQL Server Express is the optimum scenario. The reader will not necessarily have SQL Server installed already. -- John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 00:44:55 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 01:44:55 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <2044363265.10343778.1395776303882.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <2044363265.10343778.1395776303882.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Jim, Well answered. Bill From bensonforums at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 00:50:52 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 01:50:52 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check For Changes In-Reply-To: <1505437315.10358039.1395777423352.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <1505437315.10358039.1395777423352.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: Good points. Nothing I have ever built has had to stand the test of real world, as it happens stress. So I have so much to learn from these posts. I appreciate the opportunity to air ideas and have them challenged and many times rebutted successfully here. As others, and maybe even more so, I love you guyzzzzz/galzzzzz. Humility is like moss, takes ages to grow on one but by the time it does both the bearer and the humility itself stretch the farther. Woe, believe it or not I made that up just for the occasion. :) Bill. On Mar 25, 2014 3:58 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi Bill: > > Keeping date and time fields can be very useful. > > Traditionally, I use a single character to signify a records progress or > activity state. This allows records set certain ways to be queried out very > quickly. I also like to archive records, through over-night processes, that > have been completed, for what ever reason, into separate tables. It all > keeps the working tables lean and fast....and if your system has a client > across the counter every second counts. The downside is that summary > reporting, like month-end accounts, can be slower, as records must be > pulled and assembled from multiple tables but a few extra seconds are then > irrelevant. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Benson" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:27:59 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Disconnected records - was Re: Unbound Form Check > For Changes > > < < > I know the toggle /flag suffices usually but I like knowing WHEN a record > became inactive (or got reactivated). Since there is enough info in these > date fields to infer whether a record is active, I eliminated the IsActive > flag. > > I started using Last Made Active Date and Last Made Inactive Date fields in > entity tables. To determine if a record is active it has to satisfy this > > If Nz (LMID,#1/1/1900#) < LMAD. The LMAD can work as a CREATE date, if > willing to let that be overridden upon reactivation. I chose to have both > LMAD and a Create date. Can't have too many dates, I had none in high > school. > > I don't know whether that test for active records slows down the database > but it never seemed to make a difference in systems I was working on. > > I think another option would be logging tables, but I was not that > interested nor was the client, we were building a prototype. > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From paul.hartland at googlemail.com Wed Mar 26 02:59:14 2014 From: paul.hartland at googlemail.com (Paul Hartland) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:59:14 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is another decision for David to make, but I really do not see a problem with it being a task, on the planner view you could have a button next to the week if you wanted to make that week a free week, which would change all the dailys tasks to free. Anyway I will leave it upto David as his little project, as I really need to get VB.net into my head as not being very successful training myself, nothing seems to sink in training myself unless in a work or training environment. Paul On 25 March 2014 22:13, Bill Benson wrote: > Is there anyone who would agree that a free week is just a flag in the > personweek cross table that says Off? I mean I cannot see it needing to be > a task. > On Mar 25, 2014 4:53 PM, "David McAfee" wrote: > > > Oh and to answer your other questions... I plan to list the free week as > > another task. > > > > They are daily tasks, but the same task to each person is assigned from > > Monday to Sunday. > > > > So basically three people are revolving around two actual tasks, so we > > implemented a 3rd "free" task. > > If another task comes up, I can simply rename the free task as everything > > will be normalized and only using the task ID. > > > > Stuff like beds and laundry are up to them, they don't affect us or their > > siblings as they each have their own room. > > Not to mention, they don't like to smell, so they are on top of those > > tasks. :) > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 1:35 PM, David McAfee > > wrote: > > > > > My son tends to be the procrastinator when it comes to doing chores. :) > > > > > > The older two like to do the dishes the next morning. > > > We've told them they need to be done that night. > > > > > > I hate having dirty dishes left out overnight. > > > > > > When it was one kid, life was easy. > > > My son moved in with us last year, still easy to keep track of. > > > > > > My daughter moved in in December, so now all of our teens are under one > > > roof. :) > > > Having three rotate between those two jobs is pretty easy, but there > are > > > still times of uncertainty (at least for me). > > > > > > This morning I was about to leave and the trash & recycling in the > > kitchen > > > were very full. > > > I couldn't remember who's task it was. :) > > > > > > Last week my youngest was in a play and the two weeks prior to it were > > > "Hell week", > > > so she was leaving at 6:50AM and getting home from school just before > > 10PM. > > > > > > I'm sure she would have loved to have traded her free week with someone > > > else. > > > She did end up coming home, doing the dishes, any remaining homework > then > > > sleep. :S > > > > > > They have sleep overs, stay at our Ex's house sometimes and need to > > handle > > > busy weeks on their own. > > > They are so busy at times that they don't see each other. I figure an > app > > > on their phone will help. > > > > > > I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress. Heck if it works out, I > > may > > > even put it on the market place :P > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > > > > D > > > > > -- > > AccessD mailing list > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- Paul Hartland paul.hartland at googlemail.com From gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 26 03:48:38 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 08:48:38 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite Message-ID: Hi John Why not use the LocalDb install of SQL Server? Link is left-bottom here: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/Products/sql-server-editions/sql-server-express.aspx#fbid=ohJfOnpwEMu and some background here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/sqlexpress/archive/2011/07/12/introducing-localdb-a-better-sql-express.aspx /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John W Colby Sendt: 26. marts 2014 03:39 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite Does anyone know how to package up sql server lite for distribution and installation? If I start to write an unbound framework, writing it against SQL Server Express is the optimum scenario. The reader will not necessarily have SQL Server installed already. -- John W. Colby From jwcolby at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 06:33:08 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:33:08 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5332BAF4.1000002@gmail.com> Wow! How did I miss that? Thanks Gustav. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/26/2014 4:48 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Why not use the LocalDb install of SQL Server? Link is left-bottom here: > > http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/Products/sql-server-editions/sql-server-express.aspx#fbid=ohJfOnpwEMu > > and some background here: > > http://blogs.msdn.com/b/sqlexpress/archive/2011/07/12/introducing-localdb-a-better-sql-express.aspx > > /gustav > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af John W Colby > Sendt: 26. marts 2014 03:39 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: [AccessD] Package SQL Server lite > > Does anyone know how to package up sql server lite for distribution and installation? If I start to write an unbound framework, writing it against SQL Server Express is the optimum scenario. The reader will not necessarily have SQL Server installed already. > > -- > John W. Colby > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 26 10:43:41 2014 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 08:43:41 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Chore Schedule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It can be done that way, but I think it adds to the complexity of having another field/flag as well as not having a "Job ID" to swap. Nobody is really ever going to swap Trash for dishes, they'd be swapping their chore for a free day since they have something else to do. D On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bill Benson wrote: > Is there anyone who would agree that a free week is just a flag in the > personweek cross table that says Off? I mean I cannot see it needing to be > a task. > From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Mar 26 14:03:55 2014 From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:03:55 -0000 Subject: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If your DBMS does not include a backup - restore and forward recovery facility then: Have the front end constrain all access to be via forms that means processes are entirely controlled. Have the front end post 'text' files (with date-timestamp as part of the file name) containing the updates into a folder onto the server and a backup recording facility on a remote device. Have a batch process take the data in those text files and apply it to the database. That process could also be the primary update facility triggered by a change (new file) in the text file records folder JimB -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gary Kjos Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 1:37 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] New Database Table - How to Proceed I think that people who haven't actually used Access often have a bias against it. The "risk" of an Access DB would be possibly a corruption issue that couldn't be recovered from excepting reverting to a previous backup. With the amount of updates that would seem to not be a huge risk for your application. Assuming that these updates could be reentered somehow and are not being captured ONLY in the database without other documentation. If I were in your place, I would be using an Access backend at least to develop it. I would plan on having backups made at minimum every day with a rotating cycle of daily/weekly/monthly backups so that if some catastrophic issue was encountered you could go back generations if necessary as sometimes there could be an undetected error with something that you don't even realize there is a problem with. Sql Server Express would be my upgrade plan or where the final version would reside once the development in Access was complete or near to it. During development you are likely to be fiddling with additional fields and perhaps more tables etc. A single table? Really? Is that a well thought out design? And making those changes in the tool you are most familiar with will speed your development. On the other hand that would also be a good opportunity to learn the procedures to do this in SQL Server too. Is this a publicly held company? If you are subject to audits using Access for a business critical application might be looked at suspiciously where SQL Server, even the Express version would be better accepted by outside auditors. Good luck! GK On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > I have a question, but first I need to explain a little background. > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Thu Mar 27 15:37:45 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:37:45 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question References: Message-ID: All, A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft Azure SQL Database. So far, I have been impressed. Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert rows into the new table Retrieve this data. My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed "in-house"). I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. Thanks, Brad From jwcolby at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 16:08:39 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:08:39 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> My biggest concern with cloud computing is reliability. I don't remember how long ago it was (last year?) but several of the internet "cloud" providers had outages. Unrelated, just "stuff" at the servers. The internet is still (IMO) inherently less reliable than an in house system. That said, the companies involved have a huge incentive to get the issues fixed. Several years ago a client up in CT was having issues just getting (staying) on the internet. Internet up / down / up / down / up.... down / up.... It was an issue with the phone company routers. it went on for days. If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. It feels like the internet is getting more stable, but it is the nature of the beast that things might happen. Last year a group of hackers working for one of the Arab "terrorist" groups took several banks offline using DOS attacks. For days at a time the users couldn't do web banking. If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/27/2014 4:37 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, > or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question > and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > Azure SQL Database. > So far, I have been impressed. > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account > Set up a new SQL Database > Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > Queries I was able to > Add a new table to the new test database > Insert rows into the new table > Retrieve this data. > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > "in-house"). > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > Thanks, > Brad > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Thu Mar 27 16:16:51 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:16:51 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> References: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: A smart person / team should always plan for a disaster, whether you are in the cloud or with an in house system. There are many cloud services and it is highly unlikely all of them will go down at the same time. So I don?t see this as an issue any more than it was before. - Hans On Mar 27, 2014, at 2:08 PM, John W Colby wrote: > My biggest concern with cloud computing is reliability. I don't remember how long ago it was (last year?) but several of the internet "cloud" providers had outages. Unrelated, just "stuff" at the servers. The internet is still (IMO) inherently less reliable than an in house system. > > That said, the companies involved have a huge incentive to get the issues fixed. > > Several years ago a client up in CT was having issues just getting (staying) on the internet. Internet up / down / up / down / up.... down / up.... It was an issue with the phone company routers. it went on for days. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. > > It feels like the internet is getting more stable, but it is the nature of the beast that things might happen. Last year a group of hackers working for one of the Arab "terrorist" groups took several banks offline using DOS attacks. For days at a time the users couldn't do web banking. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/27/2014 4:37 PM, Brad Marks wrote: >> All, >> >> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will >> be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, >> or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question >> and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >> >> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft >> Azure SQL Database. >> So far, I have been impressed. >> >> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - >> Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account >> Set up a new SQL Database >> Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through >> Queries I was able to >> Add a new table to the new test database >> Insert rows into the new table >> Retrieve this data. >> >> >> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend >> days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >> >> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some >> success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be >> very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >> >> >> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >> "in-house"). >> >> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not >> go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read >> about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >> >> Thanks, >> Brad >> >> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 27 16:53:12 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:53:12 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Brad Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever underestimate Microsoft". Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... well, everything you can think of. One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the development environment and, second, deployment will be close to just "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero money and ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data - just in case. /gustav ________________________________________ Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com p? vegne af Brad Marks Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question All, A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft Azure SQL Database. So far, I have been impressed. Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert rows into the new table Retrieve this data. My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed "in-house"). I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. Thanks, Brad From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 17:17:56 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:17:56 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you will have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. The option to have the data available and accessible where and when you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as a development platform. I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it off and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your development behind? (Not that things would be all that different necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do think with those you can export the schema, no?) I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have that much to lose? I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, I would say go for it. On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: > Hi Brad > > Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which it > evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever > underestimate Microsoft". > Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. But > having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources have been > allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs beyond establishing > the large and reliable data centers: Easy administration targeted admins at > enterprises, scalability not possible with in-house hardware, programming > interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... > well, everything you can think of. > > One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow > control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all except > accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by various Mac > "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a server in this > environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. > > So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, that > internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but clients > like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. Deciding to > do so will, first, take very little to create the development environment > and, second, deployment will be close to just "flip a switch". Add to this > the establishing cost of zero money and ongoing costs that without in-house > techies are impossible to match. > > Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data - > just in case. > > /gustav > > ________________________________________ > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < > BradM at blackforestltd.com> > Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question > > All, > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, > or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question > and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > Azure SQL Database. > So far, I have been impressed. > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account > Set up a new SQL Database > Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > Queries I was able to > Add a new table to the new test database > Insert rows into the new table > Retrieve this data. > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > "in-house"). > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > Thanks, > Brad > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From bensonforums at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 17:21:14 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:21:14 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Errr "Brad"... sorry. Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt your frustration I am sure. On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded > circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, for > which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web service outage > which you are unlikely to have any control over, against the very much more > expensive redundant hardware bases you will have to cover to even touch the > reliability of the web. > > The option to have the data available and accessible where and when you > need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from a > reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of insertions > with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that unhappy with the > performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as a development > platform. > > I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the tool > proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data pump > version of your database or would you just have to turn it off and walk > away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your development > behind? (Not that things would be all that different necessarily with an > Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do think with those you can > export the schema, no?) > > I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database it > will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current need to > be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It comes well > supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have that much to > lose? > > I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated in > it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, I would > say go for it. > On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: > >> Hi Brad >> >> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which it >> evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >> underestimate Microsoft". >> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. But >> having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources have been >> allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs beyond establishing >> the large and reliable data centers: Easy administration targeted admins at >> enterprises, scalability not possible with in-house hardware, programming >> interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... >> well, everything you can think of. >> >> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow >> control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all except >> accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by various Mac >> "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a server in this >> environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >> >> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, that >> internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but clients >> like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. Deciding to >> do so will, first, take very little to create the development environment >> and, second, deployment will be close to just "flip a switch". Add to this >> the establishing cost of zero money and ongoing costs that without in-house >> techies are impossible to match. >> >> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data - >> just in case. >> >> /gustav >> >> ________________________________________ >> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question >> >> All, >> >> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will >> be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, >> or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question >> and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >> >> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft >> Azure SQL Database. >> So far, I have been impressed. >> >> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - >> Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account >> Set up a new SQL Database >> Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through >> Queries I was able to >> Add a new table to the new test database >> Insert rows into the new table >> Retrieve this data. >> >> >> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend >> days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >> >> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some >> success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be >> very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >> >> >> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >> "in-house"). >> >> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not >> go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read >> about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >> >> Thanks, >> Brad >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > From marksimms at verizon.net Thu Mar 27 19:38:50 2014 From: marksimms at verizon.net (Mark Simms) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 20:38:50 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201cf4a1e$16bc7ec0$44357c40$@net> The cloud is powerful. In my recent divorce it proved absolutely efficient in delivering documents to my lawyer. He was super-impressed. He was able to read them with his Android phone ! Everything was digital...a huge cost and time savings. Mechanism: Skydrive. Impressive reliability, impressive performance, highly secure. From hans.andersen at phulse.com Thu Mar 27 21:08:48 2014 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:08:48 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <001201cf4a1e$16bc7ec0$44357c40$@net> References: <001201cf4a1e$16bc7ec0$44357c40$@net> Message-ID: That's quite the endorsement, but I doubt Microsofts PR department will be contacting you any time soon. "SkyDrive: makes divorces go more smoothly" :p - Hans > On Mar 27, 2014, at 5:38 PM, "Mark Simms" wrote: > > The cloud is powerful. In my recent divorce it proved absolutely efficient > in delivering documents to my lawyer. > He was super-impressed. He was able to read them with his Android phone ! > Everything was digital...a huge cost and time savings. > > Mechanism: Skydrive. > Impressive reliability, impressive performance, highly secure. > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Thu Mar 27 22:43:07 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 03:43:07 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Full Circle.. Message-ID: Well. Fun few days. Re: The suspected ADO memory leak with Excel issue I was having. Firstly, I am not even sure the issue was related to an ADO memory leak. Using other methods Excel would still crash out, although it took longer to happen. I suspect Excel just doesn't like working dynamically with really large workbooks (60 MB+ in size). Here is what I tried. INSERT INTO Replaced all CopyFromRS lines with an INSERT INTO method instead. This was a bit more stuffing around as it created the xtab report into a new Excel Worksheet, which was then copied into the XL Template and the 'new' workbook destroyed. This increased slightly the number or xtabs copied before Excel bugged out on memory issues. Using DAO for CopyFromRS Replaced all ADO connections for this process with DAO. The DAO code was a bit faster (but not hugely so), but it also got the wobbles after a while. It just wasn't reliable and would frequently either lose the connection to the backend DB or get an "Microsoft Office Excel is waiting for another application to complete an OLE action" error. Not practical. Probably works ok for a few, but would nearly always get flakey on many. Given ADO never gave me any stability issues I can see no point in going down this path. Stability and reliability trumps speed. ALSO TRIED. Adding in DoEvents and Saves periodically - made no difference. FINAL SOLUTION Keep using ADO which is rock solid and fast enough and put in an option for the users to produce the final report in components if they get the (very rare) 'Out of Memory' issue. Oh well.... Such is life. Spent a week to end up where I was before - not a waste though as I learnt lots along the way : ) Cheers Darryl. From gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 28 02:36:30 2014 From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 07:36:30 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Message-ID: <227ca39b53964e828c53b4c9a0ce40bc@AMSPR06MB311.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com> Hi Bill You don't have to "ask for a data pump". You just connect to your data. SkyDrive/OneDrive is accessible as any other network folder, and SQL Server (nearly) like an in-house server. Outlook on-line acts like an Exchange server which you can interact with like any decent mail server (POP3, SMTP, IMAP). This means you can copy or backup your data as to your requirements beyond whatever backup Microsoft claims to run internally. /gustav -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Bill Benson Sendt: 27. marts 2014 23:18 Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Emne: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you will have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. The option to have the data available and accessible where and when you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as a development platform. I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it off and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your development behind? (Not that things would be all that different necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do think with those you can export the schema, no?) I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have that much to lose? I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, I would say go for it. On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: > Hi Brad > > Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which it > evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever > underestimate Microsoft". > Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. > But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources > have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs > beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy > administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not > possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... > well, everything you can think of. > > One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow > control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all > except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by > various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a > server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. > > So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, that > internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but > clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. > Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the > development environment and, second, deployment will be close to just > "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero money and > ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. > > Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data - > just in case. > > /gustav > > ________________________________________ > Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < > accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < > BradM at blackforestltd.com> > Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 > Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question > > All, > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, > MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my > question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > Azure SQL Database. > So far, I have been impressed. > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then > with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert > rows into the new table Retrieve this data. > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > "in-house"). > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > Thanks, > Brad From BradM at blackforestltd.com Fri Mar 28 14:17:37 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:17:37 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question References: Message-ID: Bill, About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. Doesn't bother me a bit. Thanks for your ideas and insights. I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that I am doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a little bit on company time so far. I feel like I need to better understand Azure and experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I have made so far, is a little time. I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would guess that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. Brad Marks ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Errr "Brad"... sorry. Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt your frustration I am sure. On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded > circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, > for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web > service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, > against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you will > have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. > > The option to have the data available and accessible where and when > you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from > a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of > insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that > unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as > a development platform. > > I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the > tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data > pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it off > and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your > development behind? (Not that things would be all that different > necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do > think with those you can export the schema, no?) > > I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database > it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current > need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It > comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have > that much to lose? > > I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated > in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, > I would say go for it. > On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: > >> Hi Brad >> >> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >> underestimate Microsoft". >> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... >> well, everything you can think of. >> >> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow >> control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all >> except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >> >> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but >> clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to just >> "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero money and >> ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >> >> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data >> - just in case. >> >> /gustav >> >> ________________________________________ >> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> All, >> >> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >> >> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft >> Azure SQL Database. >> So far, I have been impressed. >> >> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following >> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then >> with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through >> Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert >> rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >> >> >> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >> >> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >> >> >> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >> "in-house"). >> >> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >> >> Thanks, >> Brad >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 28 22:24:33 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:24:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <544324916.13135155.1396063473397.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi John: I think that Cloud early adopters suffered greatly from continuous Cloud/internet outages....but things have improved dramatically and now anyone can just get many Gigs of storage, from a dozen companies offering basic backup even for free. I have taken advantage of this and now all of my desktop(s) and operational files can easily be accessed from anywhere there is a internet access point. (But I wonder if the NSA will ever sell backup services?...it should be free to all American of course as you guys pay for it in your taxes.) Like you I believe that complete dependence on the web or any place for that matter is unfounded and the more diversified your data and software holdings are, the better. Initially, there is nothing cheaper or easier than just getting up and running than using Cloud services. That said, in the long run it can end up being a lot more expensive if you rely completely on web services as it is like a tax you must pay every month forever. Someone may say, that paying $100 a month for a full server is cheaper, but then there is the additional costs of access time, numbers of users, gigabytes of data processed and so on, and the cost can quickly creep up to $350 a month...without a good provider you can be nickel and dimed to death. Then calculate that out for ten years and it can starts to look expensive...then add on additional features like monitoring, backups, upgrades and security...and that of course does not count the real road block of throughput as performance is rated by how fast data can moved back and forth across the relatively slow internet network. As soon as real fibre-optic cabling is the default internet this will not be a problem, but as of yet, there is no match to a networks performance. The big improvement to the whole Cloud experience is type of scaling the providers are now using...I think all have switched over. As you know RAID 6 is probably one of the secure methods of managing data with a million to one chance of loss. The next level up is the use of the RAID ZF or the use of the ZFS drive formatting. This format is the most secure method of handling data known. It is said that Linux ZFS, on a properly setup site, can rate data loss in billions to one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS) Maximum size of drive cluster is 256 zebibytes....more data than all the data storage in the world today. So I think issues of data lost have almost moved to zero. The next issue is how stable is this network. When the Cloud initially started, a provider's fail-over servers and services were rather limited. Now the big providers have servers all over the world so the chances of the system going down is now more of a regional concern. In summary, remote regions without excellent internet service are going to be left behind in this new development and will languish in the background for years to come. If you are fortunate enough to live close to main centres, the costs of Cloud service can only come down as competition and hardware costs continue to drop and the Cloud becomes very cost effective. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Colby" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:08:39 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question My biggest concern with cloud computing is reliability. I don't remember how long ago it was (last year?) but several of the internet "cloud" providers had outages. Unrelated, just "stuff" at the servers. The internet is still (IMO) inherently less reliable than an in house system. That said, the companies involved have a huge incentive to get the issues fixed. Several years ago a client up in CT was having issues just getting (staying) on the internet. Internet up / down / up / down / up.... down / up.... It was an issue with the phone company routers. it went on for days. If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. It feels like the internet is getting more stable, but it is the nature of the beast that things might happen. Last year a group of hackers working for one of the Arab "terrorist" groups took several banks offline using DOS attacks. For days at a time the users couldn't do web banking. If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down cycles. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/27/2014 4:37 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > All, > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, > or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question > and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > Azure SQL Database. > So far, I have been impressed. > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account > Set up a new SQL Database > Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > Queries I was able to > Add a new table to the new test database > Insert rows into the new table > Retrieve this data. > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > "in-house"). > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > Thanks, > Brad > > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From bensonforums at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 22:34:23 2014 From: bensonforums at gmail.com (Bill Benson) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 23:34:23 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <544324916.13135155.1396063473397.JavaMail.root@cds018> References: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> <544324916.13135155.1396063473397.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: That is so funny.(NSA). There was an attempt I believe by some group once to get a record of all their own recorded conversations from the NSA using Freedom of Information Act but I don't think they won. Good luck getting government to ever give assistance for any reason than to help you or your business to a jail cell or the auction block. On Mar 28, 2014 11:25 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi John: > > I think that Cloud early adopters suffered greatly from continuous > Cloud/internet outages....but things have improved dramatically and now > anyone can just get many Gigs of storage, from a dozen companies offering > basic backup even for free. I have taken advantage of this and now all of > my desktop(s) and operational files can easily be accessed from anywhere > there is a internet access point. (But I wonder if the NSA will ever sell > backup services?...it should be free to all American of course as you guys > pay for it in your taxes.) > > Like you I believe that complete dependence on the web or any place for > that matter is unfounded and the more diversified your data and software > holdings are, the better. Initially, there is nothing cheaper or easier > than just getting up and running than using Cloud services. That said, in > the long run it can end up being a lot more expensive if you rely > completely on web services as it is like a tax you must pay every month > forever. Someone may say, that paying $100 a month for a full server is > cheaper, but then there is the additional costs of access time, numbers of > users, gigabytes of data processed and so on, and the cost can quickly > creep up to $350 a month...without a good provider you can be nickel and > dimed to death. Then calculate that out for ten years and it can starts to > look expensive...then add on additional features like monitoring, backups, > upgrades and security...and that of course does not count the real road > block of throughput as performance is rated by ! > how fast data can moved back and forth across the relatively slow > internet network. As soon as real fibre-optic cabling is the default > internet this will not be a problem, but as of yet, there is no match to a > networks performance. > > The big improvement to the whole Cloud experience is type of scaling the > providers are now using...I think all have switched over. As you know RAID > 6 is probably one of the secure methods of managing data with a million to > one chance of loss. The next level up is the use of the RAID ZF or the use > of the ZFS drive formatting. This format is the most secure method of > handling data known. It is said that Linux ZFS, on a properly setup site, > can rate data loss in billions to one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS) > Maximum size of drive cluster is 256 zebibytes....more data than all the > data storage in the world today. So I think issues of data lost have almost > moved to zero. > > The next issue is how stable is this network. When the Cloud initially > started, a provider's fail-over servers and services were rather limited. > Now the big providers have servers all over the world so the chances of the > system going down is now more of a regional concern. > > In summary, remote regions without excellent internet service are going to > be left behind in this new development and will languish in the background > for years to come. If you are fortunate enough to live close to main > centres, the costs of Cloud service can only come down as competition and > hardware costs continue to drop and the Cloud becomes very cost effective. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:08:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > My biggest concern with cloud computing is reliability. I don't remember > how long ago it was (last > year?) but several of the internet "cloud" providers had outages. > Unrelated, just "stuff" at the > servers. The internet is still (IMO) inherently less reliable than an in > house system. > > That said, the companies involved have a huge incentive to get the issues > fixed. > > Several years ago a client up in CT was having issues just getting > (staying) on the internet. > Internet up / down / up / down / up.... down / up.... It was an issue with > the phone company > routers. it went on for days. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down > cycles. > > It feels like the internet is getting more stable, but it is the nature of > the beast that things > might happen. Last year a group of hackers working for one of the Arab > "terrorist" groups took > several banks offline using DOS attacks. For days at a time the users > couldn't do web banking. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down > cycles. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/27/2014 4:37 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > > All, > > > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, > > or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question > > and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > > Azure SQL Database. > > So far, I have been impressed. > > > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account > > Set up a new SQL Database > > Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > > Queries I was able to > > Add a new table to the new test database > > Insert rows into the new table > > Retrieve this data. > > > > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > > "in-house"). > > > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > > > Thanks, > > Brad > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 28 23:41:23 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 22:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <001201cf4a1e$16bc7ec0$44357c40$@net> Message-ID: <1780901493.13157631.1396068083239.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Mark: A nice strong recommendation. Now even the NSA is using the Cloud, not Azure but OpenStack (OSS I believe of it was: https://www.openstack.org) but apparently the results were the same; stellar. http://www.buildyourbestcloud.com/72/openstack%E2%80%99s-contributions-nsa%E2%80%99s-it-operations-agility-flexibility-and-scalability PS Sorry to hear about your divorce. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Simms" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:38:50 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question The cloud is powerful. In my recent divorce it proved absolutely efficient in delivering documents to my lawyer. He was super-impressed. He was able to read them with his Android phone ! Everything was digital...a huge cost and time savings. Mechanism: Skydrive. Impressive reliability, impressive performance, highly secure. -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sat Mar 29 00:06:39 2014 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 23:06:39 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <870838411.13163781.1396069599126.JavaMail.root@cds018> Hi Bill: I thought governments were supposed to help. After all we do pay their wages. ;-) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Benson" To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 8:34:23 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question That is so funny.(NSA). There was an attempt I believe by some group once to get a record of all their own recorded conversations from the NSA using Freedom of Information Act but I don't think they won. Good luck getting government to ever give assistance for any reason than to help you or your business to a jail cell or the auction block. On Mar 28, 2014 11:25 PM, "Jim Lawrence" wrote: > Hi John: > > I think that Cloud early adopters suffered greatly from continuous > Cloud/internet outages....but things have improved dramatically and now > anyone can just get many Gigs of storage, from a dozen companies offering > basic backup even for free. I have taken advantage of this and now all of > my desktop(s) and operational files can easily be accessed from anywhere > there is a internet access point. (But I wonder if the NSA will ever sell > backup services?...it should be free to all American of course as you guys > pay for it in your taxes.) > > Like you I believe that complete dependence on the web or any place for > that matter is unfounded and the more diversified your data and software > holdings are, the better. Initially, there is nothing cheaper or easier > than just getting up and running than using Cloud services. That said, in > the long run it can end up being a lot more expensive if you rely > completely on web services as it is like a tax you must pay every month > forever. Someone may say, that paying $100 a month for a full server is > cheaper, but then there is the additional costs of access time, numbers of > users, gigabytes of data processed and so on, and the cost can quickly > creep up to $350 a month...without a good provider you can be nickel and > dimed to death. Then calculate that out for ten years and it can starts to > look expensive...then add on additional features like monitoring, backups, > upgrades and security...and that of course does not count the real road > block of throughput as performance is rated by ! > how fast data can moved back and forth across the relatively slow > internet network. As soon as real fibre-optic cabling is the default > internet this will not be a problem, but as of yet, there is no match to a > networks performance. > > The big improvement to the whole Cloud experience is type of scaling the > providers are now using...I think all have switched over. As you know RAID > 6 is probably one of the secure methods of managing data with a million to > one chance of loss. The next level up is the use of the RAID ZF or the use > of the ZFS drive formatting. This format is the most secure method of > handling data known. It is said that Linux ZFS, on a properly setup site, > can rate data loss in billions to one. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS) > Maximum size of drive cluster is 256 zebibytes....more data than all the > data storage in the world today. So I think issues of data lost have almost > moved to zero. > > The next issue is how stable is this network. When the Cloud initially > started, a provider's fail-over servers and services were rather limited. > Now the big providers have servers all over the world so the chances of the > system going down is now more of a regional concern. > > In summary, remote regions without excellent internet service are going to > be left behind in this new development and will languish in the background > for years to come. If you are fortunate enough to live close to main > centres, the costs of Cloud service can only come down as competition and > hardware costs continue to drop and the Cloud becomes very cost effective. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John W Colby" > To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" < > accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:08:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > My biggest concern with cloud computing is reliability. I don't remember > how long ago it was (last > year?) but several of the internet "cloud" providers had outages. > Unrelated, just "stuff" at the > servers. The internet is still (IMO) inherently less reliable than an in > house system. > > That said, the companies involved have a huge incentive to get the issues > fixed. > > Several years ago a client up in CT was having issues just getting > (staying) on the internet. > Internet up / down / up / down / up.... down / up.... It was an issue with > the phone company > routers. it went on for days. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down > cycles. > > It feels like the internet is getting more stable, but it is the nature of > the beast that things > might happen. Last year a group of hackers working for one of the Arab > "terrorist" groups took > several banks offline using DOS attacks. For days at a time the users > couldn't do web banking. > > If the db is in the cloud, then you are twiddling thumbs during the down > cycles. > > John W. Colby > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 3/27/2014 4:37 PM, Brad Marks wrote: > > All, > > > > A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that will > > be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access 2007, MySQL, > > or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of replies to my question > > and I appreciate the insights that were shared. > > > > In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft > > Azure SQL Database. > > So far, I have been impressed. > > > > Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following - > > Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account > > Set up a new SQL Database > > Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through > > Queries I was able to > > Add a new table to the new test database > > Insert rows into the new table > > Retrieve this data. > > > > > > My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and > > Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish > > these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would spend > > days, just wrestling with DB2's security. > > > > It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with some > > success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure will be > > very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). > > > > > > At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our > > little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed > > "in-house"). > > > > I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to not > > go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not yet read > > about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. > > > > Thanks, > > Brad > > > > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dw-murphy at cox.net Sun Mar 30 12:50:04 2014 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:50:04 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> Brad, If your experimenting you might be interested in Amazon AWS. You get a year's free trial to play, including a small, but full installation of SQL Server, not the crippled AZURE version as I understand. I have built a file storage system for customer that allows his customers to download documents that my customer creates for them. Built this in .NET. I have been experimenting with Amazon Work Spaces which is a streamed Windows 7 desktop hosted by Amazon. We were interested as folks keep asking if they can run our software, based on Access, on a Mac, Tablet, whatever. With this approach they can. I installed our runtime on the Amazon VM and we can run from anything that Amazon has a interface for. As of now Window, Mac, Android. I'd like to see something that would stream just the application as the whole desktop thing is a little expensive, $35/mo. Happy experimenting. There are lots of toys in the playground. Doug -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 12:18 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Bill, About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. Doesn't bother me a bit. Thanks for your ideas and insights. I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that I am doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a little bit on company time so far. I feel like I need to better understand Azure and experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I have made so far, is a little time. I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would guess that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. Brad Marks ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Errr "Brad"... sorry. Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt your frustration I am sure. On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: > I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded > circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, > for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web > service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, > against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you will > have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. > > The option to have the data available and accessible where and when > you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from > a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of > insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that > unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as > a development platform. > > I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the > tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data > pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it off > and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your > development behind? (Not that things would be all that different > necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do > think with those you can export the schema, no?) > > I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database > it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current > need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It > comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have > that much to lose? > > I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated > in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, > I would say go for it. > On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: > >> Hi Brad >> >> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >> underestimate Microsoft". >> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - perhaps the most important part - the integration to ... >> well, everything you can think of. >> >> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow >> control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all >> except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >> >> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but >> clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to just >> "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero money and >> ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >> >> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data >> - just in case. >> >> /gustav >> >> ________________________________________ >> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> All, >> >> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >> >> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft >> Azure SQL Database. >> So far, I have been impressed. >> >> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following >> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then >> with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through >> Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert >> rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >> >> >> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >> >> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >> >> >> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >> "in-house"). >> >> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >> >> Thanks, >> Brad >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Sun Mar 30 14:24:55 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:24:55 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> References: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> Message-ID: Doug, Thanks for the tip on Amazon AWS. I have read a little about this offering but have not yet played with it. I have had quite a bit of fun with Microsoft Azure SQL. I have studied the restrictions of Azure SQL. I don't believe that these will be a problem for the little project that I am thinking about. Sure feels like some major IT shifts with the realm of tablets and the world of cloud options. We have certainly come a long way from the IBM 360 Model 40 that I cut my teeth on. Brad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:51 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: > > Brad, > > If your experimenting you might be interested in Amazon AWS. You get a > year's free trial to play, including a small, but full installation of SQL > Server, not the crippled AZURE version as I understand. I have built a file > storage system for customer that allows his customers to download documents > that my customer creates for them. Built this in .NET. I have been > experimenting with Amazon Work Spaces which is a streamed Windows 7 desktop > hosted by Amazon. We were interested as folks keep asking if they can run > our software, based on Access, on a Mac, Tablet, whatever. With this > approach they can. I installed our runtime on the Amazon VM and we can run > from anything that Amazon has a interface for. As of now Window, Mac, > Android. I'd like to see something that would stream just the application as > the whole desktop thing is a little expensive, $35/mo. > > Happy experimenting. There are lots of toys in the playground. > > Doug > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 12:18 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > Bill, > > About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. Doesn't > bother me a bit. > > Thanks for your ideas and insights. > > I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently > semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that I am > doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a little bit > on company time so far. I feel like I need to better understand Azure and > experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. > > Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I have > made so far, is a little time. > > I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would guess > that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. > > Brad Marks > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > Errr "Brad"... sorry. > > Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt your > frustration I am sure. >> On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: >> >> I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded >> circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, >> for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web >> service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, >> against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you will >> have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. >> >> The option to have the data available and accessible where and when >> you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform from >> a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of >> insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that >> unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS as >> a development platform. >> >> I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the >> tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a data >> pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it off >> and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all your >> development behind? (Not that things would be all that different >> necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do >> think with those you can export the schema, no?) >> >> I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service database >> it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the current >> need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's dime. It >> comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, do you have >> that much to lose? >> >> I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated >> in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform Mark, >> I would say go for it. >>> On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brad >>> >>> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >>> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >>> underestimate Microsoft". >>> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >>> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >>> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >>> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >>> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >>> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - perhaps > the most important part - the integration to ... >>> well, everything you can think of. >>> >>> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and flow >>> control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were all >>> except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >>> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >>> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >>> >>> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >>> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, but >>> clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >>> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >>> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to just >>> "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero money and >>> ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >>> >>> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data >>> - just in case. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >>> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >>> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >>> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >>> Question >>> >>> All, >>> >>> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >>> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >>> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >>> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >>> >>> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with Microsoft >>> Azure SQL Database. >>> So far, I have been impressed. >>> >>> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following >>> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database Then >>> with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and Pass-through >>> Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test database Insert >>> rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >>> >>> >>> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >>> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >>> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >>> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >>> >>> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >>> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >>> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >>> >>> >>> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >>> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >>> "in-house"). >>> >>> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >>> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >>> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Brad >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From marksimms at verizon.net Sun Mar 30 15:20:24 2014 From: marksimms at verizon.net (Mark Simms) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:20:24 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: <53349357.8060602@gmail.com> <544324916.13135155.1396063473397.JavaMail.root@cds018> Message-ID: <000001cf4c55$7c2eb280$748c1780$@net> > Good luck getting government to ever give assistance for any reason > than to > help you or your business to a jail cell or the auction block. This is really rings true with my local government....as I fight with massive bureaucracy, favoritism, and even corruption in my divorce and child support proceedings. From dw-murphy at cox.net Sun Mar 30 16:51:18 2014 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:51:18 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> Message-ID: <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> It is amazing the amount of computing power you can rent for a small amount of money. You were a few IBM generations after the first computer I learned on, IBM 1620, at my college. It took up a whole room, and had a heard of real geeks for it's care and feeding. They got really POed whey a card deck would put it into a loop;-) Now I think you can get about the same amount of computing power in a cheap watch. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Doug, Thanks for the tip on Amazon AWS. I have read a little about this offering but have not yet played with it. I have had quite a bit of fun with Microsoft Azure SQL. I have studied the restrictions of Azure SQL. I don't believe that these will be a problem for the little project that I am thinking about. Sure feels like some major IT shifts with the realm of tablets and the world of cloud options. We have certainly come a long way from the IBM 360 Model 40 that I cut my teeth on. Brad > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:51 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: > > Brad, > > If your experimenting you might be interested in Amazon AWS. You get a > year's free trial to play, including a small, but full installation of > SQL Server, not the crippled AZURE version as I understand. I have > built a file storage system for customer that allows his customers to > download documents that my customer creates for them. Built this in > .NET. I have been experimenting with Amazon Work Spaces which is a > streamed Windows 7 desktop hosted by Amazon. We were interested as > folks keep asking if they can run our software, based on Access, on a > Mac, Tablet, whatever. With this approach they can. I installed our > runtime on the Amazon VM and we can run from anything that Amazon has > a interface for. As of now Window, Mac, Android. I'd like to see > something that would stream just the application as the whole desktop thing is a little expensive, $35/mo. > > Happy experimenting. There are lots of toys in the playground. > > Doug > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 12:18 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > Bill, > > About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. > Doesn't bother me a bit. > > Thanks for your ideas and insights. > > I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently > semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that > I am doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a > little bit on company time so far. I feel like I need to better > understand Azure and experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. > > Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I > have made so far, is a little time. > > I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would > guess that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. > > Brad Marks > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > Errr "Brad"... sorry. > > Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt > your frustration I am sure. >> On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: >> >> I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded >> circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, >> for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web >> service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, >> against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you >> will have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. >> >> The option to have the data available and accessible where and when >> you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform >> from a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of >> insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that >> unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS >> as a development platform. >> >> I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the >> tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a >> data pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it >> off and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all >> your development behind? (Not that things would be all that different >> necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do >> think with those you can export the schema, no?) >> >> I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service >> database it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the >> current need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's >> dime. It comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, >> do you have that much to lose? >> >> I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated >> in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform >> Mark, I would say go for it. >>> On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brad >>> >>> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >>> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >>> underestimate Microsoft". >>> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >>> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >>> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >>> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >>> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >>> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - >>> perhaps > the most important part - the integration to ... >>> well, everything you can think of. >>> >>> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and >>> flow control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were >>> all except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >>> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >>> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >>> >>> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >>> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, >>> but clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >>> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >>> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to >>> just "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero >>> money and ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >>> >>> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data >>> - just in case. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >>> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >>> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >>> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >>> Question >>> >>> All, >>> >>> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >>> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >>> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >>> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >>> >>> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with >>> Microsoft Azure SQL Database. >>> So far, I have been impressed. >>> >>> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following >>> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database >>> Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and >>> Pass-through Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test >>> database Insert rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >>> >>> >>> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >>> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >>> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >>> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >>> >>> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >>> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >>> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >>> >>> >>> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >>> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >>> "in-house"). >>> >>> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >>> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >>> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Brad >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at gmail.com Sun Mar 30 18:15:39 2014 From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John W Colby) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:15:39 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> References: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> Message-ID: <5338A59B.9090009@gmail.com> From 1975-1978 I maintained the computer system that ran an aircraft carrier intelligence center. The computer was a 30 bit machine, with 32 K words of core memory. Sperry Univac 642B: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X184.83 It had an 8 mhz clock so ran (at most) 256 K instructions per second. And it was the size of a huge refrigerator. Designed in 1958, it contained no ICs (there were no ICs back then) but it did use transistors. We were trained to trouble shoot down to the gate level using schematics and an o'scope. IIRC, the disks were 8 platter packs, each platter the diameter of a large dinner plate, with around 20 mbytes. Two of those in huge drawers, the entire thing was the size of two huge refrigerators. The system drew maps for the pilot briefings using pen plotters. The CRT system was the most fascinating of all. It used a disk with fixed heads as the memory, and read the data off of the disk and sent it directly to the CRT. Write to the disk to change what was displayed on the screen. Character based only as I remember. John W. Colby Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 3/30/2014 5:51 PM, Doug Murphy wrote: > It is amazing the amount of computing power you can rent for a small amount of money. > > You were a few IBM generations after the first computer I learned on, IBM 1620, at my college. It took up a whole room, and had a heard of real geeks for it's care and feeding. They got really POed whey a card deck would put it into a loop;-) Now I think you can get about the same amount of computing power in a cheap watch. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question > > Doug, > > Thanks for the tip on Amazon AWS. I have read a little about this offering but have not yet played with it. > > I have had quite a bit of fun with Microsoft Azure SQL. I have studied the restrictions of Azure SQL. I don't believe that these will be a problem for the little project that I am thinking about. > > Sure feels like some major IT shifts with the realm of tablets and the world of cloud options. > > We have certainly come a long way from the IBM 360 Model 40 that I cut my teeth on. > > Brad > > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com From BradM at blackforestltd.com Sun Mar 30 18:54:22 2014 From: BradM at blackforestltd.com (Brad Marks) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:54:22 -0500 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> References: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> Message-ID: <9FE51901-A919-4907-A288-AC50109EA1CF@blackforestltd.com> Doug, WOW IBM 1620 ! Did you program in IBM Autocoder? Those were the good old days! Brad PS. I still have a large deck of unused computer cards. I figure that they will be worth a lot someday :-) > On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:52 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: > > It is amazing the amount of computing power you can rent for a small amount of money. > > You were a few IBM generations after the first computer I learned on, IBM 1620, at my college. It took up a whole room, and had a heard of real geeks for it's care and feeding. They got really POed whey a card deck would put it into a loop;-) Now I think you can get about the same amount of computing power in a cheap watch. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question > > Doug, > > Thanks for the tip on Amazon AWS. I have read a little about this offering but have not yet played with it. > > I have had quite a bit of fun with Microsoft Azure SQL. I have studied the restrictions of Azure SQL. I don't believe that these will be a problem for the little project that I am thinking about. > > Sure feels like some major IT shifts with the realm of tablets and the world of cloud options. > > We have certainly come a long way from the IBM 360 Model 40 that I cut my teeth on. > > Brad > > > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:51 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: >> >> Brad, >> >> If your experimenting you might be interested in Amazon AWS. You get a >> year's free trial to play, including a small, but full installation of >> SQL Server, not the crippled AZURE version as I understand. I have >> built a file storage system for customer that allows his customers to >> download documents that my customer creates for them. Built this in >> .NET. I have been experimenting with Amazon Work Spaces which is a >> streamed Windows 7 desktop hosted by Amazon. We were interested as >> folks keep asking if they can run our software, based on Access, on a >> Mac, Tablet, whatever. With this approach they can. I installed our >> runtime on the Amazon VM and we can run from anything that Amazon has >> a interface for. As of now Window, Mac, Android. I'd like to see >> something that would stream just the application as the whole desktop thing is a little expensive, $35/mo. >> >> Happy experimenting. There are lots of toys in the playground. >> >> Doug >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks >> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 12:18 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> Bill, >> >> About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. >> Doesn't bother me a bit. >> >> Thanks for your ideas and insights. >> >> I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently >> semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that >> I am doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a >> little bit on company time so far. I feel like I need to better >> understand Azure and experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. >> >> Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I >> have made so far, is a little time. >> >> I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would >> guess that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. >> >> Brad Marks >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> Errr "Brad"... sorry. >> >> Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have felt >> your frustration I am sure. >>> On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: >>> >>> I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded >>> circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, >>> for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web >>> service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, >>> against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you >>> will have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. >>> >>> The option to have the data available and accessible where and when >>> you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform >>> from a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of >>> insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that >>> unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS >>> as a development platform. >>> >>> I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if the >>> tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for a >>> data pump version of your database or would you just have to turn it >>> off and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave all >>> your development behind? (Not that things would be all that different >>> necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application either but I do >>> think with those you can export the schema, no?) >>> >>> I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service >>> database it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use the >>> current need to be able to say been there done that on someone else's >>> dime. It comes well supported and at least fairly well recommended, >>> do you have that much to lose? >>> >>> I wish the future was nit web development because I am so uninitiated >>> in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the platform >>> Mark, I would say go for it. >>>> On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Brad >>>> >>>> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >>>> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't ever >>>> underestimate Microsoft". >>>> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >>>> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >>>> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >>>> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >>>> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >>>> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - >>>> perhaps >> the most important part - the integration to ... >>>> well, everything you can think of. >>>> >>>> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and >>>> flow control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were >>>> all except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >>>> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >>>> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >>>> >>>> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >>>> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, >>>> but clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >>>> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >>>> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to >>>> just "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero >>>> money and ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >>>> >>>> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all data >>>> - just in case. >>>> >>>> /gustav >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >>>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >>>> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >>>> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >>>> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>>> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >>>> Question >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >>>> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >>>> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >>>> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >>>> >>>> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with >>>> Microsoft Azure SQL Database. >>>> So far, I have been impressed. >>>> >>>> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the following >>>> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database >>>> Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and >>>> Pass-through Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test >>>> database Insert rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >>>> >>>> >>>> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >>>> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >>>> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >>>> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >>>> >>>> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >>>> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >>>> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >>>> >>>> >>>> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >>>> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >>>> "in-house"). >>>> >>>> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >>>> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >>>> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 31 02:21:57 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:21:57 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Message-ID: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> Listers, I have a client who are requesting to use 64 bit Access for their project. Is there any disadvantage in running a 32 bit developed database on a 64 bit install of Access? Any reason why they shouldn't use 64 bit? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand From rockysmolin at bchacc.com Mon Mar 31 10:45:24 2014 From: rockysmolin at bchacc.com (Rocky Smolin) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 08:45:24 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit In-Reply-To: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <131C9B651BD34C7283D4B041D4550337@HAL9007> I've had problems running mdes compiled on 2003 (which I use for development because some clients still have 2003) and it craps out under 64bit office - runs fine under 32 bit office. R -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 12:22 AM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Listers, I have a client who are requesting to use 64 bit Access for their project. Is there any disadvantage in running a 32 bit developed database on a 64 bit install of Access? Any reason why they shouldn't use 64 bit? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dw-murphy at cox.net Mon Mar 31 10:51:48 2014 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 08:51:48 -0700 Subject: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question In-Reply-To: References: <009101cf4c40$7af8fe30$70eafa90$@cox.net> <009501cf4c62$2e1ef340$8a5cd9c0$@cox.net> Message-ID: <003901cf4cf9$2023f9b0$606bed10$@cox.net> No, I didn't work at that level. I was in Mechanical Engineering and was learning Fortran. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 4:54 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the Question Doug, WOW IBM 1620 ! Did you program in IBM Autocoder? Those were the good old days! Brad PS. I still have a large deck of unused computer cards. I figure that they will be worth a lot someday :-) > On Mar 30, 2014, at 4:52 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: > > It is amazing the amount of computing power you can rent for a small amount of money. > > You were a few IBM generations after the first computer I learned on, IBM 1620, at my college. It took up a whole room, and had a heard of real geeks for it's care and feeding. They got really POed whey a card deck would put it into a loop;-) Now I think you can get about the same amount of computing power in a cheap watch. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the > Question > > Doug, > > Thanks for the tip on Amazon AWS. I have read a little about this offering but have not yet played with it. > > I have had quite a bit of fun with Microsoft Azure SQL. I have studied the restrictions of Azure SQL. I don't believe that these will be a problem for the little project that I am thinking about. > > Sure feels like some major IT shifts with the realm of tablets and the world of cloud options. > > We have certainly come a long way from the IBM 360 Model 40 that I cut my teeth on. > > Brad > > > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:51 PM, "Doug Murphy" wrote: >> >> Brad, >> >> If your experimenting you might be interested in Amazon AWS. You get >> a year's free trial to play, including a small, but full installation >> of SQL Server, not the crippled AZURE version as I understand. I have >> built a file storage system for customer that allows his customers to >> download documents that my customer creates for them. Built this in >> .NET. I have been experimenting with Amazon Work Spaces which is a >> streamed Windows 7 desktop hosted by Amazon. We were interested as >> folks keep asking if they can run our software, based on Access, on a >> Mac, Tablet, whatever. With this approach they can. I installed our >> runtime on the Amazon VM and we can run from anything that Amazon has >> a interface for. As of now Window, Mac, Android. I'd like to see >> something that would stream just the application as the whole desktop thing is a little expensive, $35/mo. >> >> Happy experimenting. There are lots of toys in the playground. >> >> Doug >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Brad Marks >> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 12:18 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> Bill, >> >> About half the people who know me call me Mark instead of Brad. >> Doesn't bother me a bit. >> >> Thanks for your ideas and insights. >> >> I started working with computers way back in 1975 and I am currently >> semi-retired, working only 20 hours per week. The experimenting that >> I am doing with Azure has been mostly at home, on my time and just a >> little bit on company time so far. I feel like I need to better >> understand Azure and experiment with it before making a recommendation at work. >> >> Microsoft offers a free 30 day trial, so the only investment that I >> have made so far, is a little time. >> >> I plan to post any significant findings here on AccessD, as I would >> guess that others might also be interested in the Microsoft Cloud. >> >> Brad Marks >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bill Benson [mailto:bensonforums at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:21 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >> Question >> >> Errr "Brad"... sorry. >> >> Half my acquaintances call me Ben at one time or other, so I have >> felt your frustration I am sure. >>> On Mar 27, 2014 6:17 PM, "Bill Benson" wrote: >>> >>> I have no experience with the cloud and perhaps in less open minded >>> circles this negates the value of my opinion. But never this group, >>> for which I am grateful. I would weigh the possibility of a web >>> service outage which you are unlikely to have any control over, >>> against the very much more expensive redundant hardware bases you >>> will have to cover to even touch the reliability of the web. >>> >>> The option to have the data available and accessible where and when >>> you need it seems to be a no - brainer in favor of a web platform >>> from a reliable cloud operation. And unless you are running heaps of >>> insertions with huge datasets, I have little doubt you will be that >>> unhappy with the performance. This is, if you are satisfied with MS >>> as a development platform. >>> >>> I do have to ask, have you looked into portability / migration if >>> the tool proves unsatisfactory in the long term? Can you ask MS for >>> a data pump version of your database or would you just have to turn >>> it off and walk away, subject to a few exports of tables, but leave >>> all your development behind? (Not that things would be all that >>> different necessarily with an Oracle or SQL Server application >>> either but I do think with those you can export the schema, no?) >>> >>> I am sure if you don't get your feet wet trying a web service >>> database it will be a mark against you career wise so why not use >>> the current need to be able to say been there done that on someone >>> else's dime. It comes well supported and at least fairly well >>> recommended, do you have that much to lose? >>> >>> I wish the future was nit web development because I am so >>> uninitiated in it, wish I had an employer asking me to test out the >>> platform Mark, I would say go for it. >>>> On Mar 27, 2014 5:54 PM, "Gustav Brock" wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Brad >>>> >>>> Your observation is correct. The Azure setup and the speed at which >>>> it evolves is impressive and proves to me the old saying "don't >>>> ever underestimate Microsoft". >>>> Because Microsoft didn't invent this, the "cloud". Amazon did that. >>>> But having seen the light, there's no doubt that massive resources >>>> have been allocated this infrastructure and the support it needs >>>> beyond establishing the large and reliable data centers: Easy >>>> administration targeted admins at enterprises, scalability not >>>> possible with in-house hardware, programming interfaces, and - >>>> perhaps >> the most important part - the integration to ... >>>> well, everything you can think of. >>>> >>>> One of our clients has asked for a customized document store and >>>> flow control. Problem is that this is a TV production company were >>>> all except accounting use Macs, and the network setup is handled by >>>> various Mac "techies" (you guessed it, it's a mess) so setting up a >>>> server in this environment is perhaps not then at least the last option. >>>> >>>> So, seriously, I consider storing all data at Azure. JC is right, >>>> that internet connection reliabilty and speed is a valid concern, >>>> but clients like these have fiber connections at 100+ Mb/s. It will work. >>>> Deciding to do so will, first, take very little to create the >>>> development environment and, second, deployment will be close to >>>> just "flip a switch". Add to this the establishing cost of zero >>>> money and ongoing costs that without in-house techies are impossible to match. >>>> >>>> Still, I believe, we will arrange for an off-line backup of all >>>> data >>>> - just in case. >>>> >>>> /gustav >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> Fra: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com < >>>> accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af Brad Marks < >>>> BradM at blackforestltd.com> >>>> Sendt: 27. marts 2014 21:37 >>>> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>>> Emne: [AccessD] To the Cloud or Not to the Cloud. that is the >>>> Question >>>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> A few days ago, I posted a question regarding a new database that >>>> will be needed for a new small application (perhaps using Access >>>> 2007, MySQL, or Microsoft SQL Server). I received a number of >>>> replies to my question and I appreciate the insights that were shared. >>>> >>>> In the mean time, I have also been doing some R&D work with >>>> Microsoft Azure SQL Database. >>>> So far, I have been impressed. >>>> >>>> Yesterday in less than one hour, I was able accomplish the >>>> following >>>> - Set up a new Microsoft Azure Account Set up a new SQL Database >>>> Then with a small Access 2007 application using ODBC and >>>> Pass-through Queries I was able to Add a new table to the new test >>>> database Insert rows into the new table Retrieve this data. >>>> >>>> >>>> My background is in mainframe databases (Primarily IBM's DB2 and >>>> Cincom's Supra). I can remember how much work it was to accomplish >>>> these same simple steps with these databases. Sometimes we would >>>> spend days, just wrestling with DB2's security. >>>> >>>> It is my understanding that other Access users are using Azure with >>>> some success. It also sounds like the costs for our use of Azure >>>> will be very small ($5.00 - $10.00 per month). >>>> >>>> >>>> At this point in time, it seems like this is a good option for our >>>> little project. (We don't have Microsoft SQL Server installed >>>> "in-house"). >>>> >>>> I am curious if others have looked closely at Azure and decided to >>>> not go down this path. Perhaps there are downsides that I have not >>>> yet read about. Perhaps I am missing some important considerations. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Brad >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jimdettman at verizon.net Mon Mar 31 10:58:06 2014 From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:58:06 -0400 Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit In-Reply-To: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <4C94AD943A324D82939A0CE9B8E606AE@XPS> <> As long as you don't use any API calls, 3rd party DLL's etc, it will work. However, keep in mind that any calls made by Office will be 64 bit, so for example you need all 64 bit ODBC drivers if your talking to an external data source. In some cases, that can be a problem as 64 bit drivers may not be available. If you do any of the above, then the app will need to be re-worked. I really would discourage them from going with 64 bit Office. There are very few advantages (in fact only two - very large spreadsheets in Excel and one other which escapes me at the moment), and many down sides. In fact Microsoft itself still recommends 32 bit Office for 64 bit OS's. You also cannot mix and match 32 and 64 bit. i.e. 64 bit Excel and 32 bit Access. It's one or the other. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 03:22 AM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Listers, I have a client who are requesting to use 64 bit Access for their project. Is there any disadvantage in running a 32 bit developed database on a 64 bit install of Access? Any reason why they shouldn't use 64 bit? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Mon Mar 31 15:20:09 2014 From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (David Emerson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:20:09 +1300 Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit In-Reply-To: <4C94AD943A324D82939A0CE9B8E606AE@XPS> References: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> <4C94AD943A324D82939A0CE9B8E606AE@XPS> Message-ID: <004e01cf4d1e$9d6010b0$d8203210$@dalyn.co.nz> Thanks all. Just the ammunition I needed. Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 4:58 a.m. To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit <> As long as you don't use any API calls, 3rd party DLL's etc, it will work. However, keep in mind that any calls made by Office will be 64 bit, so for example you need all 64 bit ODBC drivers if your talking to an external data source. In some cases, that can be a problem as 64 bit drivers may not be available. If you do any of the above, then the app will need to be re-worked. I really would discourage them from going with 64 bit Office. There are very few advantages (in fact only two - very large spreadsheets in Excel and one other which escapes me at the moment), and many down sides. In fact Microsoft itself still recommends 32 bit Office for 64 bit OS's. You also cannot mix and match 32 and 64 bit. i.e. 64 bit Excel and 32 bit Access. It's one or the other. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 03:22 AM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Listers, I have a client who are requesting to use 64 bit Access for their project. Is there any disadvantage in running a 32 bit developed database on a 64 bit install of Access? Any reason why they shouldn't use 64 bit? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com From darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au Mon Mar 31 17:40:33 2014 From: darryl at whittleconsulting.com.au (Darryl Collins) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:40:33 +0000 Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit In-Reply-To: <004e01cf4d1e$9d6010b0$d8203210$@dalyn.co.nz> References: <008e01cf4cb1$e6ad4070$b407c150$@dalyn.co.nz> <4C94AD943A324D82939A0CE9B8E606AE@XPS> <004e01cf4d1e$9d6010b0$d8203210$@dalyn.co.nz> Message-ID: <282c44823c24464a8b64c643cbdc8f5b@HKXPR04MB360.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Hi David, We tried and tested the 64 Bit version of Access. No advantage on performance of size at all, but brought a number of headaches with code and connections. Little value to it. Current best set up seems to be Windows 64 Bit OS with Office 32 installed. That approach is largely seemless. There are too many drivers and bits missing to be confident that Office 64 bit behave when you need it to. As Jim Said, Even MS themselves don't recommend you use the 64 bit version of Office This might be useful: <> and covers the pros and coms clearly. Cheers Darryl -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 7:20 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Thanks all. Just the ammunition I needed. Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 4:58 a.m. To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit <> As long as you don't use any API calls, 3rd party DLL's etc, it will work. However, keep in mind that any calls made by Office will be 64 bit, so for example you need all 64 bit ODBC drivers if your talking to an external data source. In some cases, that can be a problem as 64 bit drivers may not be available. If you do any of the above, then the app will need to be re-worked. I really would discourage them from going with 64 bit Office. There are very few advantages (in fact only two - very large spreadsheets in Excel and one other which escapes me at the moment), and many down sides. In fact Microsoft itself still recommends 32 bit Office for 64 bit OS's. You also cannot mix and match 32 and 64 bit. i.e. 64 bit Excel and 32 bit Access. It's one or the other. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David Emerson Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 03:22 AM To: AccessD Subject: [AccessD] Access 2010 32 bit vs 64 bit Listers, I have a client who are requesting to use 64 bit Access for their project. Is there any disadvantage in running a 32 bit developed database on a 64 bit install of Access? Any reason why they shouldn't use 64 bit? Regards David Emerson Dalyn Software Ltd Wellington, New Zealand -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com