From gustav at cactus.dk  Wed Sep  2 10:50:14 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:50:14 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] Classes and events stuff pushed to Github
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB169238A5264B7B78BA5436FBCA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi John

You could extend the publishing of your stuff at GitHub Pages. That service is also free for public stuff:

https://pages.github.com/

You could even expose it as a subdomain of your domain, for example:

http://code.colbyconsulting.com/

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af John Colby
Sendt: 27. august 2020 00:11
Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Emne: [AccessD] Classes and events stuff pushed to Github

https://github.com/jwcolby54/VBA-Classes

I have pushed a ton of stuff to github for archival purposes.  Anyone interested is welcome to dig through it.


--
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting 


From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 11:42:48 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:42:48 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>

I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the normal
mSecond timing.

Based on;

https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-vba/

I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a crash
course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured out, then I
hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do OOP in access.
And the first lesson will use a timer class to demonstrate why you would
use a class and how to do so.

Ease us all into the subject. ?
-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 11:44:18 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:44:18 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Classes and events stuff pushed to Github
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB169238A5264B7B78BA5436FBCA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1PR10MB169238A5264B7B78BA5436FBCA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_XWpN+Ruu0Ma1TgSgZi2cySAjs9BRHXK7R=i7ukr-o4A@mail.gmail.com>

This looks very interesting.  Thanks for the heads up!

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:50 AM Gustav Brock via AccessD <
accessd at databaseadvisors.com> wrote:

> Hi John
>
> You could extend the publishing of your stuff at GitHub Pages. That
> service is also free for public stuff:
>
> https://pages.github.com/
>
> You could even expose it as a subdomain of your domain, for example:
>
> http://code.colbyconsulting.com/
>
> /gustav
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af John Colby
> Sendt: 27. august 2020 00:11
> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <
> accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
> Emne: [AccessD] Classes and events stuff pushed to Github
>
> https://github.com/jwcolby54/VBA-Classes
>
> I have pushed a ton of stuff to github for archival purposes.  Anyone
> interested is welcome to dig through it.
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 11:52:19 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 12:52:19 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>

John,

Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant aspects. I
cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do polymorphism
without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I created.
More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code. Originally it
sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only two
feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but that is
no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an OOP
language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based Language. I
suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know more
than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the difference.

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top to
> bottom oop.  So...
>
> If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an Access
> position, I would ask you:
> 1) Do you understand OOP?
> Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
> 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a real world
> object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 12:05:53 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:05:53 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>

The second word in OOP is ORIENTED.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
wrote:

> John,
>
> Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant aspects. I
> cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do polymorphism
> without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I created.
> More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code. Originally it
> sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only two
> feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
> Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but that is
> no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an OOP
> language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based Language. I
> suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know more
> than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the difference.
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top to
> > bottom oop.  So...
> >
> > If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an
> Access
> > position, I would ask you:
> > 1) Do you understand OOP?
> > Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
> > 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a real
> world
> > object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
> >
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Arthur
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 12:07:52 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:07:52 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE-oYgLe+ry_g27Y7rpHj9nYxSYuuU=rM6O3+Ymu_o6a9g@mail.gmail.com>

So learn any modern language.  Python, Java, C++, Ruby.  Come back and tell
me OOP is dying.


On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:05 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> The second word in OOP is ORIENTED.
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant aspects. I
>> cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do polymorphism
>> without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I created.
>> More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code. Originally it
>> sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only two
>> feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
>> Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but that
>> is
>> no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an OOP
>> language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based Language. I
>> suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know more
>> than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the difference.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top to
>> > bottom oop.  So...
>> >
>> > If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an
>> Access
>> > position, I would ask you:
>> > 1) Do you understand OOP?
>> > Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
>> > 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a real
>> world
>> > object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
>> >
>> > --
>> > John W. Colby
>> > Colby Consulting
>> > --
>> > AccessD mailing list
>> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arthur
>> --
>> AccessD mailing list
>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>>
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 12:23:09 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:23:09 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE-oYgLe+ry_g27Y7rpHj9nYxSYuuU=rM6O3+Ymu_o6a9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE-oYgLe+ry_g27Y7rpHj9nYxSYuuU=rM6O3+Ymu_o6a9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE8wk7E=8giBmYOOwxdJWXnVC7UCxSPcEsdxNcJtgtiWPg@mail.gmail.com>

And yes I fully understand that Access doesn't have inheritance and
polymorphism.  So what?

"I'm not going to use this saw because the handle is made of wood"?  I only
use saws with gold plated handles.

LOL.  A tool is what it is.  Access has classes. Access classes fully
implement the first two properties of OO, abstraction (black box) and
encapsulation. Again I am amused that you bitch about the class not having
inheritance, and won't use it and yet merrily use forms (which is an object
you can't inherit), reports, all the controls, the entire damned DAO
library, all of which are objects which you cannot inherit.

Get over yourself.

Classes exist, they are extremely useful, and they provide programming
abilities without which you are literally hamstrung.  YOU are stringing
your hams my friend.  I merrily use the tool however it allows me to use
it.  And yes, I call it Object ORIENTED programming.  Classes are objects.
They model real world things.

I can do things in Access that you cannot even imagine, not because I am
all that, but because of your lack of imagination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> So learn any modern language.  Python, Java, C++, Ruby.  Come back and
> tell me OOP is dying.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:05 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The second word in OOP is ORIENTED.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant aspects. I
>>> cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do polymorphism
>>> without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I created.
>>> More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code. Originally
>>> it
>>> sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only two
>>> feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
>>> Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but that
>>> is
>>> no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an OOP
>>> language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based Language. I
>>> suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know more
>>> than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the
>>> difference.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top to
>>> > bottom oop.  So...
>>> >
>>> > If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an
>>> Access
>>> > position, I would ask you:
>>> > 1) Do you understand OOP?
>>> > Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
>>> > 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a real
>>> world
>>> > object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > John W. Colby
>>> > Colby Consulting
>>> > --
>>> > AccessD mailing list
>>> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>>> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>>> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arthur
>>> --
>>> AccessD mailing list
>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John W. Colby
>> Colby Consulting
>>
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From gustav at cactus.dk  Wed Sep  2 12:24:26 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 17:24:26 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi John

To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which is a 64-bit integer?

Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the time to experiment with such things.

/gustav

________________________________
Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com>
Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42
Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing

I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the normal
mSecond timing.

Based on;

https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-vba/

I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a crash
course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured out, then I
hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do OOP in access.
And the first lesson will use a timer class to demonstrate why you would
use a class and how to do so.

Ease us all into the subject. ?
--
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 12:29:19 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 13:29:19 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_1dTc_MeGP=QHxamOFDp-yc3yfMYw1Zfo+uONj=rXYbQ@mail.gmail.com>

And this is why I look up to you Gustav.

As I said elsewhere, I am not all that, I simply can imagine things that
others don't.  But I surely don't know everything.

I will go back and examine the LongLong.  Decimal has speed issues IIRC.
It is implemented in code whereas the LongLong is almost certainly a
register operation.

Thanks for the heads up.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:25 PM Gustav Brock via AccessD <
accessd at databaseadvisors.com> wrote:

> Hi John
>
> To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use
> Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which is a
> 64-bit integer?
>
> Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the time
> to experiment with such things.
>
> /gustav
>
> ________________________________
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John
> Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com>
> Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42
> Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <
> accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
> Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing
>
> I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the normal
> mSecond timing.
>
> Based on;
>
> https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-vba/
>
> I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a crash
> course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured out, then I
> hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do OOP in access.
> And the first lesson will use a timer class to demonstrate why you would
> use a class and how to do so.
>
> Ease us all into the subject. ?
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jackandpat.d at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 13:08:50 2020
From: jackandpat.d at gmail.com (jack drawbridge)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:08:50 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKvidAtGqC7p5-0+ysDnc6FhWssKbSZFvGGX2uC=ms_icWTgHA@mail.gmail.com>

Good luck with the youtube John --great idea! There is so little info other
than theory and nay sayers re vba Class Modules. I look forward to your
channel to try and comprehend what you have been preaching to us all for so
long.
Stay safe.
jack

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:43 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the normal
> mSecond timing.
>
> Based on;
>
> https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-vba/
>
> I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a crash
> course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured out, then I
> hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do OOP in access.
> And the first lesson will use a timer class to demonstrate why you would
> use a class and how to do so.
>
> Ease us all into the subject. ?
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>

From df.waters at outlook.com  Wed Sep  2 13:30:55 2020
From: df.waters at outlook.com (Daniel Waters)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:30:55 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CH2PR05MB691754FD24BD9BBA39048E1DF62F0@CH2PR05MB6917.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Subscribe!  ?

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: John Colby<mailto:jwcolby at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 11:44 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving<mailto:accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing

I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the normal
mSecond timing.

Based on;

https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-vba/

I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a crash
course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured out, then I
hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do OOP in access.
And the first lesson will use a timer class to demonstrate why you would
use a class and how to do so.

Ease us all into the subject. ?
--
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 15:14:51 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:14:51 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE8wk7E=8giBmYOOwxdJWXnVC7UCxSPcEsdxNcJtgtiWPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE-oYgLe+ry_g27Y7rpHj9nYxSYuuU=rM6O3+Ymu_o6a9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE8wk7E=8giBmYOOwxdJWXnVC7UCxSPcEsdxNcJtgtiWPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1jMZqdJ2H1PoNyV-A18MQxVnNWRcatnGHhDGvw7a0tXNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, a discussion has turned into an insult-fest. I'm done, too old and
weak for slinging. I'm too olc, and most mornings cannot make it out of
bed, so Victory to you. I quit and resolve to do the best I can to feed my
cats, and hope that they die before I do. Otherwise the implications are
horrific.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> And yes I fully understand that Access doesn't have inheritance and
> polymorphism.  So what?
>
> "I'm not going to use this saw because the handle is made of wood"?  I only
> use saws with gold plated handles.
>
> LOL.  A tool is what it is.  Access has classes. Access classes fully
> implement the first two properties of OO, abstraction (black box) and
> encapsulation. Again I am amused that you bitch about the class not having
> inheritance, and won't use it and yet merrily use forms (which is an object
> you can't inherit), reports, all the controls, the entire damned DAO
> library, all of which are objects which you cannot inherit.
>
> Get over yourself.
>
> Classes exist, they are extremely useful, and they provide programming
> abilities without which you are literally hamstrung.  YOU are stringing
> your hams my friend.  I merrily use the tool however it allows me to use
> it.  And yes, I call it Object ORIENTED programming.  Classes are objects.
> They model real world things.
>
> I can do things in Access that you cannot even imagine, not because I am
> all that, but because of your lack of imagination.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So learn any modern language.  Python, Java, C++, Ruby.  Come back and
> > tell me OOP is dying.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:05 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The second word in OOP is ORIENTED.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> John,
> >>>
> >>> Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant aspects.
> I
> >>> cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do
> polymorphism
> >>> without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I created.
> >>> More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code. Originally
> >>> it
> >>> sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only
> two
> >>> feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
> >>> Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but
> that
> >>> is
> >>> no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an
> OOP
> >>> language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based Language. I
> >>> suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know more
> >>> than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the
> >>> difference.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top
> to
> >>> > bottom oop.  So...
> >>> >
> >>> > If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an
> >>> Access
> >>> > position, I would ask you:
> >>> > 1) Do you understand OOP?
> >>> > Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
> >>> > 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a real
> >>> world
> >>> > object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > John W. Colby
> >>> > Colby Consulting
> >>> > --
> >>> > AccessD mailing list
> >>> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> >>> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> >>> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Arthur
> >>> --
> >>> AccessD mailing list
> >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> John W. Colby
> >> Colby Consulting
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> >
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Wed Sep  2 16:31:20 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 07:31:20 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>,
	<HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <5F500F28.5154.A0AD472@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using 32bit Office.

An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-time-of-vba-code




On 2 Sep 2020 at 17:24, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:

> Hi John
> 
> To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use
> Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which is
> a 64-bit integer?
> 
> Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the
> time to experiment with such things.
> 
> /gustav
> 
> ________________________________
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John
> Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42 Til: Access
> Developers discussion and problem solving
> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> 
> I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the
> normal mSecond timing.
> 
> Based on;
> 
> https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-v
> ba/
> 
> I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a
> crash course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured
> out, then I hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do
> OOP in access. And the first lesson will use a timer class to
> demonstrate why you would use a class and how to do so.
> 
> Ease us all into the subject. 
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com




From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 17:28:34 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:28:34 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Access and OOP
In-Reply-To: <CAEPJO1jMZqdJ2H1PoNyV-A18MQxVnNWRcatnGHhDGvw7a0tXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_hbbUtO6n7Sw-Wz6VkcF1q-Esk22DouVygd9PB4HUzNg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hBWBrLQa3g_YsCYgdEicQpyNMMsy=Az+wTSB+tqpSZUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE_Hjp+WLCwsztXe8C1MMCrGfG=df-NG3msO4nUT2Tv5pw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE-oYgLe+ry_g27Y7rpHj9nYxSYuuU=rM6O3+Ymu_o6a9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE8wk7E=8giBmYOOwxdJWXnVC7UCxSPcEsdxNcJtgtiWPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1jMZqdJ2H1PoNyV-A18MQxVnNWRcatnGHhDGvw7a0tXNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_tSEV6+70K6rXSpqFYCnE98-+23L9w6eVWGXrF7Oo-ew@mail.gmail.com>

LOL, an insult fest?  Really?  There was no discussion.  "Access is not
OOP"  Rather a declaration.  If you cannot imagine using classes then that
is on you my friend.

I have visited you in your own home Arthur.  I respect and admire you.

But reality is as I like to say.  I am not limited by what others want to
believe, but rather by what is real.  Stop believing what you hear and
experience what you can see for yourself.

But please do feed the cats.  The implications are horrific.

If you felt insulted, I do apologize.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 4:15 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Wow, a discussion has turned into an insult-fest. I'm done, too old and
> weak for slinging. I'm too olc, and most mornings cannot make it out of
> bed, so Victory to you. I quit and resolve to do the best I can to feed my
> cats, and hope that they die before I do. Otherwise the implications are
> horrific.
>
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And yes I fully understand that Access doesn't have inheritance and
> > polymorphism.  So what?
> >
> > "I'm not going to use this saw because the handle is made of wood"?  I
> only
> > use saws with gold plated handles.
> >
> > LOL.  A tool is what it is.  Access has classes. Access classes fully
> > implement the first two properties of OO, abstraction (black box) and
> > encapsulation. Again I am amused that you bitch about the class not
> having
> > inheritance, and won't use it and yet merrily use forms (which is an
> object
> > you can't inherit), reports, all the controls, the entire damned DAO
> > library, all of which are objects which you cannot inherit.
> >
> > Get over yourself.
> >
> > Classes exist, they are extremely useful, and they provide programming
> > abilities without which you are literally hamstrung.  YOU are stringing
> > your hams my friend.  I merrily use the tool however it allows me to use
> > it.  And yes, I call it Object ORIENTED programming.  Classes are
> objects.
> > They model real world things.
> >
> > I can do things in Access that you cannot even imagine, not because I am
> > all that, but because of your lack of imagination.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So learn any modern language.  Python, Java, C++, Ruby.  Come back and
> > > tell me OOP is dying.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:05 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The second word in OOP is ORIENTED.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 12:53 PM Arthur Fuller <
> fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> John,
> > >>>
> > >>> Access is nof OOP. It is close but fails on a few significant
> aspects.
> > I
> > >>> cannot create a class and then inherit from it. I cannot do
> > polymorphism
> > >>> without a bunch of VBA code that points to the pseudo-class I
> created.
> > >>> More to the point, OOP is pretty much a dying creed of code.
> Originally
> > >>> it
> > >>> sounded like a great idea, then turned out to be a rhinocus with only
> > two
> > >>> feet -- in other words, a very awkward beast.
> > >>> Initally I was seduced by the claims of Bertrand Meyer et. al., but
> > that
> > >>> is
> > >>> no longer the case. I still think in OOP, but Access is simply not an
> > OOP
> > >>> language. I would call it Not Oop, but kist an Object-Based
> Language. I
> > >>> suppose this is merely a matter of terminology, but since you know
> more
> > >>> than a little about VC and C++, you surely must understand the
> > >>> difference.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 7:53 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > It is 2020.  OOP has been around for a long time and Access is, top
> > to
> > >>> > bottom oop.  So...
> > >>> >
> > >>> > If you were to interview with the mythical organization C2Db for an
> > >>> Access
> > >>> > position, I would ask you:
> > >>> > 1) Do you understand OOP?
> > >>> > Yes.  The only acceptable answer in 2020.
> > >>> > 2) What is a class? A code construct that allows you to model a
> real
> > >>> world
> > >>> > object, storing code and variables (and events) for that object.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > --
> > >>> > John W. Colby
> > >>> > Colby Consulting
> > >>> > --
> > >>> > AccessD mailing list
> > >>> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > >>> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > >>> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Arthur
> > >>> --
> > >>> AccessD mailing list
> > >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> John W. Colby
> > >> Colby Consulting
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > John W. Colby
> > > Colby Consulting
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Arthur
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  2 17:33:40 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:33:40 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <5F500F28.5154.A0AD472@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE9rbfjHU-HWJHWsTO9AnvT5SnBkVPKRvhb+tvF3x=mJ+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<HE1PR10MB1692F10B69FA6D19A0D834AACA2F0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
	<5F500F28.5154.A0AD472@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_9Bggrzqf2wqU-WwCcP4Vn7+p13Aq+oC5fFZZyDr7FKQ@mail.gmail.com>

It seems to me like I don't really need to do anything.  The real is only
used as a storage location.  It is a register on the CPU, or a memory
location.  I am not going to do any math using it.  And if I have to it is
still simple instructions native to the CPU.

I will however explore the link you provided.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 5:32 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
wrote:

> LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using 32bit
> Office.
>
> An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger
>
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-time-of-vba-code
>
>
>
>
> On 2 Sep 2020 at 17:24, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:
>
> > Hi John
> >
> > To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use
> > Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which is
> > a 64-bit integer?
> >
> > Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the
> > time to experiment with such things.
> >
> > /gustav
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John
> > Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42 Til: Access
> > Developers discussion and problem solving
> > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> >
> > I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the
> > normal mSecond timing.
> >
> > Based on;
> >
> > https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-v
> > ba/
> >
> > I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a
> > crash course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured
> > out, then I hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do
> > OOP in access. And the first lesson will use a timer class to
> > demonstrate why you would use a class and how to do so.
> >
> > Ease us all into the subject.
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From gustav at cactus.dk  Thu Sep  3 02:45:53 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 07:45:53 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB1692F8DE324AE3C741E400A4CA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi John and Stuart

Here:
	https://stackoverflow.com/a/199480/3527297

I noticed this comment, and - for most practical purposes - I think he has a point:

<quote>
Still, if you're measuring performance in VBA, getting 1/100th of a second resolution is not bad. -- Invoking the timing calls alone could take a couple of ms. If the call is so fast that you need that much resolution to time it, you probably don't need performance data about that call. - BrainSlugs83
</quote>

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af Stuart McLachlan
Sendt: 2. september 2020 23:31
Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Emne: Re: [AccessD] uSecond timing

LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using 32bit Office.

An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-time-of-vba-code




On 2 Sep 2020 at 17:24, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:

> Hi John
> 
> To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use 
> Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which is 
> a 64-bit integer?
> 
> Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the 
> time to experiment with such things.
> 
> /gustav
> 
> ________________________________
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John 
> Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42 Til: Access 
> Developers discussion and problem solving 
> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> 
> I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the 
> normal mSecond timing.
> 
> Based on;
> 
> https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in-v
> ba/
> 
> I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a 
> crash course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured 
> out, then I hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to do 
> OOP in access. And the first lesson will use a timer class to 
> demonstrate why you would use a class and how to do so.
> 
> Ease us all into the subject. 
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting 


From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Thu Sep  3 06:03:52 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:03:52 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB1692F8DE324AE3C741E400A4CA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1PR10MB1692F8DE324AE3C741E400A4CA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <5F50CD98.27960.CF2B9C1@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

I must admit, I've never used it in Access, I've never needed to test anything to that degree of 
precision.  But I regulary use queryperformancecounter in PBWin.   In fact I used it today 
doing comparisons on a function which is called repeatedly in an application.

Test whether two numbers are within a certain range of each other.  Comparing plain Basic 
code against an assembler routine.

(ABS(n1,n2) <= range)
versus
 ! mov eax, n1
  ! sub eax, n2
  ! jnc Compare
  ! neg eax
Compare:
  ! cmp eax, range
  ! jg ExitNow
  ! mov ret, -1
ExitNow:           

1000 iteration of the PB code  took about 4.7 microseconds
1000 iterations of the Assembler code took  about 5.5 microseconds.


> Hi John and Stuart
> 
> Here:
>  https://stackoverflow.com/a/199480/3527297
> 
> I noticed this comment, and - for most practical purposes - I think he
> has a point:
> 
> <quote>
> Still, if you're measuring performance in VBA, getting 1/100th of a
> second resolution is not bad. -- Invoking the timing calls alone could
> take a couple of ms. If the call is so fast that you need that much
> resolution to time it, you probably don't need performance data about
> that call. - BrainSlugs83 </quote>
> 
> /gustav
> 
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af Stuart
> McLachlan Sendt: 2. september 2020 23:31 Til: Access Developers
> discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne:
> Re: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> 
> LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using
> 32bit Office.
> 
> An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-tim
> e-of-vba-code
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2 Sep 2020 at 17:24, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:
> 
> > Hi John
> > 
> > To prevent the scaling up/down of Currency he suggests, why not use
> > Decimal which, in VBA, isn't buggy at all, or simply LongLong which
> > is a 64-bit integer?
> > 
> > Looking forward to your video. I always wonder where people find the
> > time to experiment with such things.
> > 
> > /gustav
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John
> > Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> Sendt: 2. september 2020 18:42 Til: Access
> > Developers discussion and problem solving
> > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> > 
> > I got a class implemented to do uSecond timing as opposed to the
> > normal mSecond timing.
> > 
> > Based on;
> > 
> > https://rotchvba.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/a-high-resolution-timer-in
> > -v ba/
> > 
> > I am preparing to do my very first YouTube video ever.  I'm doing a
> > crash course on OBS Studio now.  Once I get the first video figured
> > out, then I hope to do one weekly or so.  About (what else) how to
> > do OOP in access. And the first lesson will use a timer class to
> > demonstrate why you would use a class and how to do so.
> > 
> > Ease us all into the subject. 
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting 
> 
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 




From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Thu Sep  3 06:29:57 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:29:57 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB1692F8DE324AE3C741E400A4CA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1PR10MB1692F8DE324AE3C741E400A4CA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <5F50D3B5.11739.D0A99D3@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

He mkes a good point for tat code.

A classic case where a Class is NOT the answer. (Sorry john :) )

The overhead of a classlike that compared to just wrapping the function in a couple of API 
calls will severely affect the accuracy of the timing process.


But that quote misses the point of using a high resoution timer.  It's when you need to repeat 
a set of instructions (either a function or just a piece of code)  many times that it matters.

Optimising parsing of lines of data read into a database from a large file with many records 
would be a prime example where it could be useful



On 3 Sep 2020 at 7:45, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:

> Hi John and Stuart
> 
> Here:
>  https://stackoverflow.com/a/199480/3527297
> 
> I noticed this comment, and - for most practical purposes - I think he
> has a point:
> 
> <quote>
> Still, if you're measuring performance in VBA, getting 1/100th of a
> second resolution is not bad. -- Invoking the timing calls alone could
> take a couple of ms. If the call is so fast that you need that much
> resolution to time it, you probably don't need performance data about
> that call. - BrainSlugs83 </quote>
> 
> /gustav
> 
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af Stuart
> McLachlan Sendt: 2. september 2020 23:31 Til: Access Developers
> discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne:
> Re: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> 
> LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using
> 32bit Office.
> 
> An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-tim
> e-of-vba-code
> 



From gustav at cactus.dk  Thu Sep  3 06:46:58 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:46:58 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] uSecond timing
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB16925FAF123AD3B94C5436DACA2C0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Stuart

True. Apart from timing queries (often in seconds where even milliseconds are irrelevant), it is repeated code that is interesting.

However, I just time from start of the loop to the end and divide by the loop count - exactly as you did for your assembler example in your other post. Often 1000 isn't enough, then I use 1 mio. or more to obtain a time longer than a second.
That's how I measured the execution time (about 1?s) of my rounding functions:

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Round#general-rounding

Of course, you may wish to measure single steps within a larger loop, but then even microsecond timing is enough, and you will have to use alternative methods.

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af Stuart McLachlan
Sendt: 3. september 2020 13:30
Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Emne: Re: [AccessD] uSecond timing

He mkes a good point for tat code.

A classic case where a Class is NOT the answer. (Sorry john :) )

The overhead of a classlike that compared to just wrapping the function in a couple of API calls will severely affect the accuracy of the timing process.


But that quote misses the point of using a high resoution timer.  It's when you need to repeat 
a set of instructions (either a function or just a piece of code)  many times that it matters.

Optimising parsing of lines of data read into a database from a large file with many records 
would be a prime example where it could be useful



On 3 Sep 2020 at 7:45, Gustav Brock via AccessD wrote:

> Hi John and Stuart
> 
> Here:
>  https://stackoverflow.com/a/199480/3527297
> 
> I noticed this comment, and - for most practical purposes - I think he
> has a point:
> 
> <quote>
> Still, if you're measuring performance in VBA, getting 1/100th of a
> second resolution is not bad. -- Invoking the timing calls alone could
> take a couple of ms. If the call is so fast that you need that much
> resolution to time it, you probably don't need performance data about
> that call. - BrainSlugs83 </quote>
> 
> /gustav
> 
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> P? vegne af Stuart
> McLachlan Sendt: 2. september 2020 23:31 Til: Access Developers
> discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Emne:
> Re: [AccessD] uSecond timing
> 
> LongLong only works with 64bit VBA.  A lot of people are still using
> 32bit Office.
> 
> An alternative:using a UDT LongInteger
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/198409/how-do-you-test-running-tim
> e-of-vba-code 


From jwcolby at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 13:24:44 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 14:24:44 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Slowly getting there
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE-OixBevzdcLDZSbB5cr3us47SrgeNKDHcBTiKjy=g9vQ@mail.gmail.com>

Trying to figure out OBS to make a YouTube video using screen capture and a
mic.  Sorry, the talking head video will have to wait.

While I know a little about Access and classes, not so much about OBS.  If
anyone out there is doing this and wants to assist, email me off line.

At any rate, I expect to make it happen "any day now".  I am actually able
to make a video.  I have to find my mic and get it talking to my laptop.
So much to do, so little time.

-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 14:45:33 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 15:45:33 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Slowly getting there
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE-OixBevzdcLDZSbB5cr3us47SrgeNKDHcBTiKjy=g9vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE-OixBevzdcLDZSbB5cr3us47SrgeNKDHcBTiKjy=g9vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1iCWWM-7strLz_h0+89i629-rYVy6YmOcWytd25KD0qkA@mail.gmail.com>

For what it's worth, John, I am perhaps one of the few who hates
instructional . I would much prefer to read and open another window into
which I would type the code (I have to type it rather than copy and paste
-- that way the imprint lasts much longer). But I suspect that I am in the
minority, so plug on.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 2:25 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> Trying to figure out OBS to make a YouTube video using screen capture and a
> mic.  Sorry, the talking head video will have to wait.
>
> While I know a little about Access and classes, not so much about OBS.  If
> anyone out there is doing this and wants to assist, email me off line.
>
> At any rate, I expect to make it happen "any day now".  I am actually able
> to make a video.  I have to find my mic and get it talking to my laptop.
> So much to do, so little time.
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Sat Sep  5 20:57:47 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 21:57:47 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Slowly getting there
In-Reply-To: <CAEPJO1iCWWM-7strLz_h0+89i629-rYVy6YmOcWytd25KD0qkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE-OixBevzdcLDZSbB5cr3us47SrgeNKDHcBTiKjy=g9vQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1iCWWM-7strLz_h0+89i629-rYVy6YmOcWytd25KD0qkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE-rUxRMcR8KL67ShxQkX93YeQ3WMWcm9zKmAeFSeonXGg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, the plan is for a lecture series.  Maybe eventually a livestream if
anyone is interested.

When I was down in Mexico in the late 90s I learned about a foxpro
"framework" which was used as a jumping off point for developing FoxPro
database apps.  At the time I was working on a debit card vending machine
project.  My part in the project was writing the C software running on a
Z80 single board computer which drove the machine itself.  It sold Telmex
phone debit cards and took cash into a bill acceptor.  Having a recent (70s
through late 80s) background in electronics, I designed (or specced) all
the electronic hardware, and then wrote the software running on RTOS.  It
interfaced to the outside world via an RS232 port on the bottom of the
machine.  A third party Hand Held Computer (FoxPro) connected to that and
my software dumped the sales info into that.

As such I was not involved in the FoxPro side but I watched it with
interest.

So... I learned about frameworks.  By the late 90s I was working on
writing a framework for Access to make designing applications faster.  I
did not know about Access' classes, although Shamil was struggling to teach
me.   While Access is quite powerful, it also takes considerable
programming skill to get the most out of it.  And without classes, much of
what I was trying to do was just hard.

I don't have clear memories of how and why but at some point it just
clicked.  And it became easy.  Simultaneously Shamil decided it was too
much work and moved on.

And so over a five year period starting around 2002-3 I wrote a very
powerful framework for Access.  It uses classes wrapping every access
object that I use, with event handlers for all form and control events, and
in some cases raising custom events as well.  It is a library that simply
is referenced, initialized and from that point, any form that opens
instantiates a form class which handles loading all the core stuff that has
to do with forms and controls, and when the form closes, it likewise tears
it all back down for that form.

I have mentioned that starting around 2002 I wrote a call center app for an
insurance company in CT.  It was while building that app that I wrote the
framework, which I called C2DbFramework. To this day, the app is used day
in and day out.  AFAIK about 30-40 people are in the app all day long
taking phone calls from disability claimants.  The BE eventually migrated
to SQL Server but the FE is still Access, using the framework.

So I have what is literally 5 years writing the app and the framework, and
the framework drives (when I left the job) forms dealing with 180 tables.
All day, every day.  Every form loading a form class.  Almost every control
on every form is wrapped in a control class specifically for that type of
control, sinking all form and control events in the classes, firing code in
the classes to do whatever needs to be done to manage that control in the
context of a form.

Plus classes driving a security layer for dividing employees into groups
such as data entry, supervisors, managers, accounting etc.  The security
layer actively manages who can open which forms, and if they can open forms
whether they can add / edit / delete records, or even see controls on forms
and reports.  All table driven, all cached in Classes, for lightning fast
access.

All in all a pretty serious application, with dozens and dozens of classes,
loaded and unloaded as forms open and close.  All day, every day.  It would
be interesting to do some metrics counting the number of times classes load
and unload in a day  / week / year.

And so I naturally reject the opinion that Access is not OOP, and that
Access classes are useless.  I know different.  I have built a system that
it is simply not possible to build without OOP and classes.

A funny story.  My "boss" (I was a consultant), a principal in
the company,  told me that they would bring in executives from the
disability carriers to demo the system to sell them the service.  One of
these guys told my boss that they contracted a vendor to build a system
that did what we did, but directly on their mainframe.  Several years and
several million dollars later they cancelled the contract.  It just never
got done.

Access is a powerful system.  It is Object Oriented.  It gives us classes.
The classes can provide an entire programming paradigm impossible without
them.






On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:46 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
wrote:

> For what it's worth, John, I am perhaps one of the few who hates
> instructional . I would much prefer to read and open another window into
> which I would type the code (I have to type it rather than copy and paste
> -- that way the imprint lasts much longer). But I suspect that I am in the
> minority, so plug on.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 2:25 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Trying to figure out OBS to make a YouTube video using screen capture
> and a
> > mic.  Sorry, the talking head video will have to wait.
> >
> > While I know a little about Access and classes, not so much about OBS.
> If
> > anyone out there is doing this and wants to assist, email me off line.
> >
> > At any rate, I expect to make it happen "any day now".  I am actually
> able
> > to make a video.  I have to find my mic and get it talking to my laptop.
> > So much to do, so little time.
> >
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Arthur
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 07:25:52 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 08:25:52 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Slowly getting there
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE-rUxRMcR8KL67ShxQkX93YeQ3WMWcm9zKmAeFSeonXGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE-OixBevzdcLDZSbB5cr3us47SrgeNKDHcBTiKjy=g9vQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1iCWWM-7strLz_h0+89i629-rYVy6YmOcWytd25KD0qkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA_iUE-rUxRMcR8KL67ShxQkX93YeQ3WMWcm9zKmAeFSeonXGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1gNJjCM5HsHy3KrxVh9jB1ev_7Nut-UC0pjXN7Vy0CLaA@mail.gmail.com>

Without question you are one of the most skilled Access developers I have
ever encountered. Also without question is the fact that one can work magic
by wrapping Access classes. My sole objection was one of terminology. I
distinguish OOP from OBP (Object-based programming). Let's use another
example. An ancient language called Clipper introduced objects in V. 5.0,
most notably Tbrowse,  which meant table-browser. I discovered that one
could reduce a Tbrowser to a very tiny area, equivalent to the navigation
buttons onan Access form, and then attach an actual form to this, so the
form refreshed as one navigated using the Tbrowse object. That is not OOP,
it is OBP., for the simple reason that I could not create a class from
scratch, but merely create descendant classes. That is not to say that
descendant classes are not powerful. But it is to say that OBP will not
allow you to create classes from scratch -- say, for example, that I want
to create a slider control.  In Access, this is impossible. That is all
that I mean by distinguishing OOP from OBP. It's not an insult to Access or
its developers, or any virtuoso such as you or Shamil or Jim Dettman (whose
work is astounding). But it is to say that I cannot create a class from
scratch, such as a Slider control. I have to begin with the existing
classes and then wrap them.
A.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 9:58 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, the plan is for a lecture series.  Maybe eventually a livestream if
> anyone is interested.
>
> When I was down in Mexico in the late 90s I learned about a foxpro
> "framework" which was used as a jumping off point for developing FoxPro
> database apps.  At the time I was working on a debit card vending machine
> project.  My part in the project was writing the C software running on a
> Z80 single board computer which drove the machine itself.  It sold Telmex
> phone debit cards and took cash into a bill acceptor.  Having a recent (70s
> through late 80s) background in electronics, I designed (or specced) all
> the electronic hardware, and then wrote the software running on RTOS.  It
> interfaced to the outside world via an RS232 port on the bottom of the
> machine.  A third party Hand Held Computer (FoxPro) connected to that and
> my software dumped the sales info into that.
>
> As such I was not involved in the FoxPro side but I watched it with
> interest.
>
> So... I learned about frameworks.  By the late 90s I was working on
> writing a framework for Access to make designing applications faster.  I
> did not know about Access' classes, although Shamil was struggling to teach
> me.   While Access is quite powerful, it also takes considerable
> programming skill to get the most out of it.  And without classes, much of
> what I was trying to do was just hard.
>
> I don't have clear memories of how and why but at some point it just
> clicked.  And it became easy.  Simultaneously Shamil decided it was too
> much work and moved on.
>
> And so over a five year period starting around 2002-3 I wrote a very
> powerful framework for Access.  It uses classes wrapping every access
> object that I use, with event handlers for all form and control events, and
> in some cases raising custom events as well.  It is a library that simply
> is referenced, initialized and from that point, any form that opens
> instantiates a form class which handles loading all the core stuff that has
> to do with forms and controls, and when the form closes, it likewise tears
> it all back down for that form.
>
> I have mentioned that starting around 2002 I wrote a call center app for an
> insurance company in CT.  It was while building that app that I wrote the
> framework, which I called C2DbFramework. To this day, the app is used day
> in and day out.  AFAIK about 30-40 people are in the app all day long
> taking phone calls from disability claimants.  The BE eventually migrated
> to SQL Server but the FE is still Access, using the framework.
>
> So I have what is literally 5 years writing the app and the framework, and
> the framework drives (when I left the job) forms dealing with 180 tables.
> All day, every day.  Every form loading a form class.  Almost every control
> on every form is wrapped in a control class specifically for that type of
> control, sinking all form and control events in the classes, firing code in
> the classes to do whatever needs to be done to manage that control in the
> context of a form.
>
> Plus classes driving a security layer for dividing employees into groups
> such as data entry, supervisors, managers, accounting etc.  The security
> layer actively manages who can open which forms, and if they can open forms
> whether they can add / edit / delete records, or even see controls on forms
> and reports.  All table driven, all cached in Classes, for lightning fast
> access.
>
> All in all a pretty serious application, with dozens and dozens of classes,
> loaded and unloaded as forms open and close.  All day, every day.  It would
> be interesting to do some metrics counting the number of times classes load
> and unload in a day  / week / year.
>
> And so I naturally reject the opinion that Access is not OOP, and that
> Access classes are useless.  I know different.  I have built a system that
> it is simply not possible to build without OOP and classes.
>
> A funny story.  My "boss" (I was a consultant), a principal in
> the company,  told me that they would bring in executives from the
> disability carriers to demo the system to sell them the service.  One of
> these guys told my boss that they contracted a vendor to build a system
> that did what we did, but directly on their mainframe.  Several years and
> several million dollars later they cancelled the contract.  It just never
> got done.
>
> Access is a powerful system.  It is Object Oriented.  It gives us classes.
> The classes can provide an entire programming paradigm impossible without
> them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:46 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, John, I am perhaps one of the few who hates
> > instructional . I would much prefer to read and open another window into
> > which I would type the code (I have to type it rather than copy and paste
> > -- that way the imprint lasts much longer). But I suspect that I am in
> the
> > minority, so plug on.
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 2:25 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Trying to figure out OBS to make a YouTube video using screen capture
> > and a
> > > mic.  Sorry, the talking head video will have to wait.
> > >
> > > While I know a little about Access and classes, not so much about OBS.
> > If
> > > anyone out there is doing this and wants to assist, email me off line.
> > >
> > > At any rate, I expect to make it happen "any day now".  I am actually
> > able
> > > to make a video.  I have to find my mic and get it talking to my
> laptop.
> > > So much to do, so little time.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John W. Colby
> > > Colby Consulting
> > > --
> > > AccessD mailing list
> > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Arthur
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 09:35:42 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 10:35:42 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] OOP vs OBP
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>

Arthur Fuller via <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
databaseadvisors.com
8:26 AM (1 hour ago)
to Access
Without question you are one of the most skilled Access developers I have
ever encountered. Also without question is the fact that one can work magic
by wrapping Access classes. My sole objection was one of terminology. I
distinguish OOP from OBP (Object-based programming). Let's use another
example. An ancient language called Clipper introduced objects in V. 5.0,
most notably Tbrowse,  which meant table-browser. I discovered that one
could reduce a Tbrowser to a very tiny area, equivalent to the navigation
buttons onan Access form, and then attach an actual form to this, so the
form refreshed as one navigated using the Tbrowse object. That is not OOP,
it is OBP., for the simple reason that I could not create a class from
scratch, but merely create descendant classes. That is not to say that
descendant classes are not powerful. But it is to say that OBP will not
allow you to create classes from scratch -- say, for example, that I want
to create a slider control.  In Access, this is impossible. That is all
that I mean by distinguishing OOP from OBP. It's not an insult to Access or
its developers, or any virtuoso such as you or Shamil or Jim Dettman (whose
work is astounding). But it is to say that I cannot create a class from
scratch, such as a Slider control. I have to begin with the existing
classes and then wrap them.
A.

I understand and fully admit that Access cannot use inheritance.  However,
the primary tenants of OOP are encapsulation of data and code, and
abstraction - exposing a specific interface to users of the class, hiding
the implementation details of what and how the class does whatever it
does.  OOP is now generally considered to use inheritance, but not always.
The terms OO was used way back when well before inheritance raised it's
head.

Google's Go language is usually considered an OOP language and yet has no
inheritance.  It does have interfaces, as does Access.  Interfaces
basically define what an object will look like, but completely absent any
code or data.  What that allows however is passing of objects, as well as
dimensioning objects that are "of" an interface instead of "of" a specific
type.  So as long as the object being passed or dimensioned implements that
interface it can be used in that context.

Access, internally, is actually OOP complete with inheritance.  However it
has a hard boundary, i.e. we cannot inherit any of the objects that are
Access.

As for me, I don't really care what you call it, what matters is what I can
do with it.  I worked in C# for about 2 years, writing a pretty darned
complex, system to automate SQL Server, exporting and importing data and
doing other stuff, threaded. And never once inherited anything.
Inheritance, while it can be useful, is IMHO highly over rated. In the end
I can't use it in Access so I just move on to what I can do.

So call it whatever you like.  Just don't call it as useless.
-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 11:09:26 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:09:26 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] OOP vs OBP
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>

I have never once called it useless. Your library has taught me numerous
tips and tricks, and I am thankful for that. So let's instead call this a
linguistic question. C# and C++ and Actor and numerous other languages are
OOP, not OBP, which is not to denigrate the latter, and in fact it's much
harder to write OOP than OBP. It just depends on what you need to do.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 10:36 AM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> Arthur Fuller via <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
> databaseadvisors.com
> 8:26 AM (1 hour ago)
> to Access
> Without question you are one of the most skilled Access developers I have
> ever encountered. Also without question is the fact that one can work magic
> by wrapping Access classes. My sole objection was one of terminology. I
> distinguish OOP from OBP (Object-based programming). Let's use another
> example. An ancient language called Clipper introduced objects in V. 5.0,
> most notably Tbrowse,  which meant table-browser. I discovered that one
> could reduce a Tbrowser to a very tiny area, equivalent to the navigation
> buttons onan Access form, and then attach an actual form to this, so the
> form refreshed as one navigated using the Tbrowse object. That is not OOP,
> it is OBP., for the simple reason that I could not create a class from
> scratch, but merely create descendant classes. That is not to say that
> descendant classes are not powerful. But it is to say that OBP will not
> allow you to create classes from scratch -- say, for example, that I want
> to create a slider control.  In Access, this is impossible. That is all
> that I mean by distinguishing OOP from OBP. It's not an insult to Access or
> its developers, or any virtuoso such as you or Shamil or Jim Dettman (whose
> work is astounding). But it is to say that I cannot create a class from
> scratch, such as a Slider control. I have to begin with the existing
> classes and then wrap them.
> A.
>
> I understand and fully admit that Access cannot use inheritance.  However,
> the primary tenants of OOP are encapsulation of data and code, and
> abstraction - exposing a specific interface to users of the class, hiding
> the implementation details of what and how the class does whatever it
> does.  OOP is now generally considered to use inheritance, but not always.
> The terms OO was used way back when well before inheritance raised it's
> head.
>
> Google's Go language is usually considered an OOP language and yet has no
> inheritance.  It does have interfaces, as does Access.  Interfaces
> basically define what an object will look like, but completely absent any
> code or data.  What that allows however is passing of objects, as well as
> dimensioning objects that are "of" an interface instead of "of" a specific
> type.  So as long as the object being passed or dimensioned implements that
> interface it can be used in that context.
>
> Access, internally, is actually OOP complete with inheritance.  However it
> has a hard boundary, i.e. we cannot inherit any of the objects that are
> Access.
>
> As for me, I don't really care what you call it, what matters is what I can
> do with it.  I worked in C# for about 2 years, writing a pretty darned
> complex, system to automate SQL Server, exporting and importing data and
> doing other stuff, threaded. And never once inherited anything.
> Inheritance, while it can be useful, is IMHO highly over rated. In the end
> I can't use it in Access so I just move on to what I can do.
>
> So call it whatever you like.  Just don't call it as useless.
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Sun Sep  6 18:51:37 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:51:37 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] OOP vs OBP
In-Reply-To: <CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

Guys,

OOP vs OBP is a difference without a difference.

OOL vs OBL (Object Oriented Language v Object Based Language) is a real differences.

The key letter in the  P for Programming.

If you only  use native Windows or programing language object constructs,  and use a 
functional/procedural programming for your logic implementation, your programming is not 
object oriented/based.

If  our application logic  is implemented through objects derived from classes you designed 
then your programming paradigm is object oriented/based.

Whether the environment you are working in supports particular capabiities of classes such 
as inheritance  or multiple interfaces doesn't change the programming paradigm. It just 
changes how easy it is to write your classes.

And FWIW, VBA does support inheritance.- with the Implements keyword, it just doesn't 
support "implementation inheritance"


-- 
Stuart











From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Sun Sep  6 19:17:47 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 10:17:47 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

I' still using Office 2010 so that I can support clients using anything from 2010 onwards.

One old client is using a system I originally built in Access 2000 (using .mdb FE/BE)

The probllem is they are an oil palm company based in East New Britain province several 
hours from the nearest airport.  That and COVID-19 travel restrictions mean everything is 
being done remotely.

First step was to get their latest FE and upgrade it to an accdb that would work n both 32bit 
and 64 bit.  Done successfully.

Next task to upsize to SQL Server 2014.  I got a copy of the old 77MB BE .mdb and coverted 
it to accdb.  I then used the upsizing wizard  but the upsize failed on some tables.

It appears than some years ago, they had someone who liked to tinker who  deleted some 
records after removing refertial integrity, leaving lots of orphans.  - they also did a few other 
naughty things.

There were inappropriate dates (like "10/1/143") in the system which SQL Server wouldn't 
accept.  There were also a few records with corrupt data in them.

I finally got it all cleaned up and imported and the clean .accdb sent back to the client to do 
the upsize.

They are using Office 2013.
That's when we discovered that there is no upsize wizard in Access 2013 onward. It's been 
"depreciated".   SIgh!

I'm urrently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) for Access so that I can 
check it out and write a process description for them.

(Sorry folks, I just had to vent to someone who would understand :) )






From jimdettman at verizon.net  Sun Sep  6 19:56:22 2020
From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 20:56:22 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <DC87EF9A-2D5B-4594-99DE-2DB278498D51@verizon.net>

FWIW,  the upsizing wizard was removed because SSMA surpassed it.

Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 6, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg> wrote:
> 
> I' still using Office 2010 so that I can support clients using anything from 2010 onwards.
> 
> One old client is using a system I originally built in Access 2000 (using .mdb FE/BE)
> 
> The probllem is they are an oil palm company based in East New Britain province several 
> hours from the nearest airport.  That and COVID-19 travel restrictions mean everything is 
> being done remotely.
> 
> First step was to get their latest FE and upgrade it to an accdb that would work n both 32bit 
> and 64 bit.  Done successfully.
> 
> Next task to upsize to SQL Server 2014.  I got a copy of the old 77MB BE .mdb and coverted 
> it to accdb.  I then used the upsizing wizard  but the upsize failed on some tables.
> 
> It appears than some years ago, they had someone who liked to tinker who  deleted some 
> records after removing refertial integrity, leaving lots of orphans.  - they also did a few other 
> naughty things.
> 
> There were inappropriate dates (like "10/1/143") in the system which SQL Server wouldn't 
> accept.  There were also a few records with corrupt data in them.
> 
> I finally got it all cleaned up and imported and the clean .accdb sent back to the client to do 
> the upsize.
> 
> They are using Office 2013.
> That's when we discovered that there is no upsize wizard in Access 2013 onward. It's been 
> "depreciated".   SIgh!
> 
> I'm urrently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) for Access so that I can 
> check it out and write a process description for them.
> 
> (Sorry folks, I just had to vent to someone who would understand :) )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com



From jwcolby at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 20:56:32 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 21:56:32 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE8Qs7W6stXbO4X7tmd7Gq8Yg_9W86a7_nwS9Hc4JpmTFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I feel your pain.  At the company I wrote the call center for, I walked by
a cube to find a user trying to do stuff.  She had taken a course on Access
and thought she'd add some fields to a table.  A linked table.  I gently
explained that modifying tables had consequences beyond what she understood
and she was not allowed to do that.  I thought it best not to explain links
and where the real table was.  Just in case.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 8:18 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
wrote:

> I' still using Office 2010 so that I can support clients using anything
> from 2010 onwards.
>
> One old client is using a system I originally built in Access 2000 (using
> .mdb FE/BE)
>
> The probllem is they are an oil palm company based in East New Britain
> province several
> hours from the nearest airport.  That and COVID-19 travel restrictions
> mean everything is
> being done remotely.
>
> First step was to get their latest FE and upgrade it to an accdb that
> would work n both 32bit
> and 64 bit.  Done successfully.
>
> Next task to upsize to SQL Server 2014.  I got a copy of the old 77MB BE
> .mdb and coverted
> it to accdb.  I then used the upsizing wizard  but the upsize failed on
> some tables.
>
> It appears than some years ago, they had someone who liked to tinker who
> deleted some
> records after removing refertial integrity, leaving lots of orphans.  -
> they also did a few other
> naughty things.
>
> There were inappropriate dates (like "10/1/143") in the system which SQL
> Server wouldn't
> accept.  There were also a few records with corrupt data in them.
>
> I finally got it all cleaned up and imported and the clean .accdb sent
> back to the client to do
> the upsize.
>
> They are using Office 2013.
> That's when we discovered that there is no upsize wizard in Access 2013
> onward. It's been
> "depreciated".   SIgh!
>
> I'm urrently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) for
> Access so that I can
> check it out and write a process description for them.
>
> (Sorry folks, I just had to vent to someone who would understand :) )
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Sun Sep  6 20:57:17 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 21:57:17 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE8Qs7W6stXbO4X7tmd7Gq8Yg_9W86a7_nwS9Hc4JpmTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1hTNA8pfV-SkCYpGrQubTj0pO7P=Kn6WzDB=osGC0AcJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<CAA_iUE8Qs7W6stXbO4X7tmd7Gq8Yg_9W86a7_nwS9Hc4JpmTFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE-eODp75J-UHnJejdKTs3tUBY+OYLOrbrb6A2TA7bk9tw@mail.gmail.com>

And upgrading to SQL server is rarely painless, that is for sure.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 9:56 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> I feel your pain.  At the company I wrote the call center for, I walked by
> a cube to find a user trying to do stuff.  She had taken a course on Access
> and thought she'd add some fields to a table.  A linked table.  I gently
> explained that modifying tables had consequences beyond what she understood
> and she was not allowed to do that.  I thought it best not to explain links
> and where the real table was.  Just in case.
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 8:18 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
> wrote:
>
>> I' still using Office 2010 so that I can support clients using anything
>> from 2010 onwards.
>>
>> One old client is using a system I originally built in Access 2000 (using
>> .mdb FE/BE)
>>
>> The probllem is they are an oil palm company based in East New Britain
>> province several
>> hours from the nearest airport.  That and COVID-19 travel restrictions
>> mean everything is
>> being done remotely.
>>
>> First step was to get their latest FE and upgrade it to an accdb that
>> would work n both 32bit
>> and 64 bit.  Done successfully.
>>
>> Next task to upsize to SQL Server 2014.  I got a copy of the old 77MB BE
>> .mdb and coverted
>> it to accdb.  I then used the upsizing wizard  but the upsize failed on
>> some tables.
>>
>> It appears than some years ago, they had someone who liked to tinker who
>> deleted some
>> records after removing refertial integrity, leaving lots of orphans.  -
>> they also did a few other
>> naughty things.
>>
>> There were inappropriate dates (like "10/1/143") in the system which SQL
>> Server wouldn't
>> accept.  There were also a few records with corrupt data in them.
>>
>> I finally got it all cleaned up and imported and the clean .accdb sent
>> back to the client to do
>> the upsize.
>>
>> They are using Office 2013.
>> That's when we discovered that there is no upsize wizard in Access 2013
>> onward. It's been
>> "depreciated".   SIgh!
>>
>> I'm urrently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) for
>> Access so that I can
>> check it out and write a process description for them.
>>
>> (Sorry folks, I just had to vent to someone who would understand :) )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AccessD mailing list
>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>>
>
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
>


-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Sun Sep  6 21:36:24 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:36:24 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>,
	<5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <5F559CA8.22321.79A7768@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

SSA is a nice tool.

One potential gotcha.  You need to instal the version of SSMA for your Access version not 
your operataing system.  If using 32bit Office, you need the _x86.msi version from

https://download.microsoft.com/download/D/B/D/DBDECC99-4DCA-4674-983A-CC1ABABA
2B37/SSMAforAccess_8.13.0_x86.msi

Since I'm on 64 bit Windows, guess which one I tried first.  :)

On 7 Sep 2020 at 10:17, Stuart McLachlan wrote:

> 
> I'm currently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) for Access so that I can 
> check it out and write a process description for them.
> 


From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Sun Sep  6 21:59:42 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:59:42 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE-eODp75J-UHnJejdKTs3tUBY+OYLOrbrb6A2TA7bk9tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CAA_iUE8Qs7W6stXbO4X7tmd7Gq8Yg_9W86a7_nwS9Hc4JpmTFQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<CAA_iUE-eODp75J-UHnJejdKTs3tUBY+OYLOrbrb6A2TA7bk9tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F55A21E.25137.7AFCECB@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

All done and working fine!
SSMA is a nice tool.

On 6 Sep 2020 at 21:57, John Colby wrote:

> And upgrading to SQL server is rarely painless, that is for sure.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 9:56 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I feel your pain.  At the company I wrote the call center for, I
> > walked by a cube to find a user trying to do stuff.  She had taken a
> > course on Access and thought she'd add some fields to a table.  A
> > linked table.  I gently explained that modifying tables had
> > consequences beyond what she understood and she was not allowed to
> > do that.  I thought it best not to explain links and where the real
> > table was.  Just in case.
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 8:18 PM Stuart McLachlan
> > <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg> wrote:
> >
> >> I' still using Office 2010 so that I can support clients using
> >> anything from 2010 onwards.
> >>
> >> One old client is using a system I originally built in Access 2000
> >> (using .mdb FE/BE)
> >>
> >> The probllem is they are an oil palm company based in East New
> >> Britain province several hours from the nearest airport.  That and
> >> COVID-19 travel restrictions mean everything is being done
> >> remotely.
> >>
> >> First step was to get their latest FE and upgrade it to an accdb
> >> that would work n both 32bit and 64 bit.  Done successfully.
> >>
> >> Next task to upsize to SQL Server 2014.  I got a copy of the old
> >> 77MB BE .mdb and coverted it to accdb.  I then used the upsizing
> >> wizard  but the upsize failed on some tables.
> >>
> >> It appears than some years ago, they had someone who liked to
> >> tinker who deleted some records after removing refertial integrity,
> >> leaving lots of orphans.  - they also did a few other naughty
> >> things.
> >>
> >> There were inappropriate dates (like "10/1/143") in the system
> >> which SQL Server wouldn't accept.  There were also a few records
> >> with corrupt data in them.
> >>
> >> I finally got it all cleaned up and imported and the clean .accdb
> >> sent back to the client to do the upsize.
> >>
> >> They are using Office 2013.
> >> That's when we discovered that there is no upsize wizard in Access
> >> 2013 onward. It's been "depreciated".   SIgh!
> >>
> >> I'm urrently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA)
> >> for Access so that I can check it out and write a process
> >> description for them.
> >>
> >> (Sorry folks, I just had to vent to someone who would understand :)
> >> )
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> AccessD mailing list
> >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > John W. Colby
> > Colby Consulting
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 



From jbartow at winhaven.net  Tue Sep  8 16:26:12 2020
From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:26:12 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] Upsizing woes
In-Reply-To: <5F559CA8.22321.79A7768@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CAA_iUE_nrNAagyy0WHiP34n0r5MO8xonMfSh7_PWDEaNdx_t1A@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5F557609.2925.7039BF5@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>,
	<5F557C2B.18882.71B8F0A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<5F559CA8.22321.79A7768@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <CH2PR11MB43279EF1750825C0F8A340A1D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Stuart,
Thanks for that, I am just starting the conversation on migrating a database to SQLServer. And like the old saying would have proven again, I assumed the upsize wizard was still intact. Downloading now.

John B

-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2020 9:36 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Upsizing woes

SSA is a nice tool.

One potential gotcha.  You need to instal the version of SSMA for your Access version not your operataing system.  If using 32bit Office, you need the _x86.msi version from

https://download.microsoft.com/download/D/B/D/DBDECC99-4DCA-4674-983A-CC1ABABA
2B37/SSMAforAccess_8.13.0_x86.msi

Since I'm on 64 bit Windows, guess which one I tried first.  :)

On 7 Sep 2020 at 10:17, Stuart McLachlan wrote:

> 
> I'm currently downloading the SQL Server Migration Assistant (SSMA) 
> for Access so that I can check it out and write a process description for them.
> 

--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From jbartow at winhaven.net  Tue Sep  8 16:26:12 2020
From: jbartow at winhaven.net (John Bartow)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:26:12 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
Message-ID: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Since SQL Server was recently brought up...

Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?

John B



From wrwehler at gmail.com  Tue Sep  8 16:42:31 2020
From: wrwehler at gmail.com (Ryan W)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 16:42:31 -0500
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <9BB11B2B-DEE4-4F5A-B525-38630A8881F9@gmail.com>

SSMS does have a database diagramming tool. 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2020, at 4:27 PM, John Bartow <jbartow at winhaven.net> wrote:
> 
> ?Since SQL Server was recently brought up...
> 
> Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?
> 
> John B
> 
> 
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Tue Sep  8 17:46:03 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 08:46:03 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5F5809AB.22172.1114502B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

In SQL Server Management Studio  (using 2014)

In the  Treeview:

Server
....Databases
......MyDatabase
.........Database Diagrams

New Diagram  (Unless you've got an aappropriate one already there)
Add desired tables

Click on the "record selector" of a field in one table and drag it over a field in another table to 
create a relationship.  You will be prompted for the reationsip details.

To delete a relationship, right click on the relationship and select "Delete relationships..."
You wil be prompted for confirmation.

On 8 Sep 2020 at 21:26, John Bartow wrote:

> Since SQL Server was recently brought up...
> 
> Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships
> similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?
> 
> John B
> 
> 
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 



From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz  Wed Sep  9 01:19:19 2020
From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:19:19 +1200
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <5F30C96B.3339.13E97508@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>
	<5F30C96B.3339.13E97508@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <008001d68671$295c4e70$7c14eb50$@dalyn.co.nz>

I have tried to adapt Gustav's code but I am getting an error 415 -
Unsupported Media Type

It seems to be related to the Content-Type setting.  I have tried multiple
options with the error codes below.  Here is my code:

        Dim XmlHttp As New ServerXMLHTTP60
        
        XmlHttp.Open "POST", "https://dispatch.exd.nz/API/CreateOrders",
False
        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/xml"   'Error
415 - Unsupported Media Type
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type",
"application/x-www-form-urlencoded"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/xml"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/html"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/json"   'Error 500 -
Internal server Error
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/json"
'Error 500

        XmlHttp.Send strRequestBody
        strResponseText = XmlHttp.responseText
        MsgBox XmlHttp.Status

Here is an example of the strRequestBody:

{"orders": [{"order_number": "TestGS16193","reference":
"CoRef","destination": {"name": "Bob Builder","email":
"bob at gmail.com","company": "HV Services","building": "","street": "66 Natu
Street","suburb": "Stoke","city": "Wherever","post_code": "9999","country":
"New Zealand"}}]}


Any pointers to what I need to check?

Regards

David Emerson
Dalyn Software Ltd
Wellington, New Zealand



From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Stuart
McLachlan
Sent: Monday, 10 August 2020 4:14 pm
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

There are several ways to do it.

Gustav posted a method of getting  data a few days ago using XMLHTTP

   https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random

The actual module code is at

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random/blob/master/Random.bas

The relevant part of that code for your purposes is the function:

Private Function RetrieveDataResponse( _
    ByVal ServiceUrl As String, _
    ByRef ResponseText As String) _
    As Boolean

A variation of that using
XmlHttp.Open "PUT", ServiceUrl, Async
instead of
XmlHttp.Open "GET", ServiceUrl, Async
should work the other way.


' Required reference:

'   Microsoft XML, v6.0





From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz  Wed Sep  9 01:29:01 2020
From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:29:01 +1200
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <008001d68671$295c4e70$7c14eb50$@dalyn.co.nz>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>	<5F30C96B.3339.13E97508@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<008001d68671$295c4e70$7c14eb50$@dalyn.co.nz>
Message-ID: <008101d68672$845e88f0$8d1b9ad0$@dalyn.co.nz>

Solved it.  "text/json" worked.  The error was because the record had
already been uploaded previously.

-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of
newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz
Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2020 6:19 pm
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

I have tried to adapt Gustav's code but I am getting an error 415 -
Unsupported Media Type

It seems to be related to the Content-Type setting.  I have tried multiple
options with the error codes below.  Here is my code:

        Dim XmlHttp As New ServerXMLHTTP60
        
        XmlHttp.Open "POST", "https://dispatch.exd.nz/API/CreateOrders",
False
        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/xml"   'Error
415 - Unsupported Media Type
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type",
"application/x-www-form-urlencoded"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/xml"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/html"  'Error 415
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/json"   'Error 500 -
Internal server Error
'        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/json"
'Error 500

        XmlHttp.Send strRequestBody
        strResponseText = XmlHttp.responseText
        MsgBox XmlHttp.Status

Here is an example of the strRequestBody:

{"orders": [{"order_number": "TestGS16193","reference":
"CoRef","destination": {"name": "Bob Builder","email":
"bob at gmail.com","company": "HV Services","building": "","street": "66 Natu
Street","suburb": "Stoke","city": "Wherever","post_code": "9999","country":
"New Zealand"}}]}


Any pointers to what I need to check?

Regards

David Emerson
Dalyn Software Ltd
Wellington, New Zealand



From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Stuart
McLachlan
Sent: Monday, 10 August 2020 4:14 pm
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

There are several ways to do it.

Gustav posted a method of getting  data a few days ago using XMLHTTP

   https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random

The actual module code is at

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random/blob/master/Random.bas

The relevant part of that code for your purposes is the function:

Private Function RetrieveDataResponse( _
    ByVal ServiceUrl As String, _
    ByRef ResponseText As String) _
    As Boolean

A variation of that using
XmlHttp.Open "PUT", ServiceUrl, Async
instead of
XmlHttp.Open "GET", ServiceUrl, Async
should work the other way.


' Required reference:

'   Microsoft XML, v6.0




--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Wed Sep  9 02:00:45 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:00:45 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <008101d68672$845e88f0$8d1b9ad0$@dalyn.co.nz>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>,
	<008001d68671$295c4e70$7c14eb50$@dalyn.co.nz>,
	<008101d68672$845e88f0$8d1b9ad0$@dalyn.co.nz>
Message-ID: <5F587D9D.31851.12D93A54@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

"The HTTP 415 Unsupported Media Type client error response code indicates that the server 
refuses to accept the request because the payload format is in an unsupported format. The 
format problem might be due to the request's indicated Content-Type or Content-Encoding , 
or as a result of inspecting the data directly"

Note the last nine words.

Apparently the server looked at the data and said "You've told me this is XML, but it's not 
valid XML, I don't know how to handle it".

(Your example string is JSON encoded, not XML.)


On 9 Sep 2020 at 18:29, newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz wrote:

> Solved it.  "text/json" worked.  The error was because the record had
> already been uploaded previously.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of
> newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz Sent: Wednesday, 9 September 2020 6:19 pm To:
> 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's
> from VBA
> 
> I have tried to adapt Gustav's code but I am getting an error 415 -
> Unsupported Media Type
> 
> It seems to be related to the Content-Type setting.  I have tried
> multiple options with the error codes below.  Here is my code:
> 
>         Dim XmlHttp As New ServerXMLHTTP60
> 
>         XmlHttp.Open "POST",
>         "https://dispatch.exd.nz/API/CreateOrders",
> False
>         XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/xml"  
>         'Error
> 415 - Unsupported Media Type
> '        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type",
> "application/x-www-form-urlencoded"  'Error 415
> '        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/xml"  'Error
> 415 '        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "text/html" 
> 'Error 415 '        XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type",
> "text/json"   'Error 500 - Internal server Error '       
> XmlHttp.setRequestHeader "Content-Type", "application/json" 'Error 500
> 
>         XmlHttp.Send strRequestBody
>         strResponseText = XmlHttp.responseText
>         MsgBox XmlHttp.Status
> 
> Here is an example of the strRequestBody:
> 
> {"orders": [{"order_number": "TestGS16193","reference":
> "CoRef","destination": {"name": "Bob Builder","email":
> "bob at gmail.com","company": "HV Services","building": "","street": "66
> Natu Street","suburb": "Stoke","city": "Wherever","post_code":
> "9999","country": "New Zealand"}}]}
> 
> 
> Any pointers to what I need to check?
> 
> Regards
> 
> David Emerson
> Dalyn Software Ltd
> Wellington, New Zealand
> 
> 
> 
> From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of
> Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, 10 August 2020 4:14 pm To: Access
> Developers discussion and problem solving
> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's
> from VBA
> 
> There are several ways to do it.
> 
> Gustav posted a method of getting  data a few days ago using XMLHTTP
> 
>    https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random
> 
> The actual module code is at
> 
> https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.Random/blob/master/Random.bas
> 
> The relevant part of that code for your purposes is the function:
> 
> Private Function RetrieveDataResponse( _
>     ByVal ServiceUrl As String, _
>     ByRef ResponseText As String) _
>     As Boolean
> 
> A variation of that using
> XmlHttp.Open "PUT", ServiceUrl, Async
> instead of
> XmlHttp.Open "GET", ServiceUrl, Async
> should work the other way.
> 
> 
> ' Required reference:
> 
> '   Microsoft XML, v6.0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 



From jwcolby at gmail.com  Wed Sep  9 16:02:41 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 17:02:41 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_ec2K=HS0twsDNHYM3B+hNktAP+WMoi7tnkeXxcJu8CQ@mail.gmail.com>

The problem is that VBA is single threaded. As long as it only takes a few
seconds you're fine otherwise it appears to be locked up. I ended up using
c# and threads.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
>
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data and
> then call another one to pull data back again.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do this
> in
> Access?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> David Emerson
>
> Dalyn Software Ltd
>
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>

From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz  Wed Sep  9 16:10:50 2020
From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:10:50 +1200
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_ec2K=HS0twsDNHYM3B+hNktAP+WMoi7tnkeXxcJu8CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>
	<CAA_iUE_ec2K=HS0twsDNHYM3B+hNktAP+WMoi7tnkeXxcJu8CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d686ed$b440e010$1cc2a030$@dalyn.co.nz>

Thanks John,

In this case there is a manual process required between the push and get so
we don't have that problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of John Colby
Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 9:03 am
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

The problem is that VBA is single threaded. As long as it only takes a few
seconds you're fine otherwise it appears to be locked up. I ended up using
c# and threads.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
>
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data 
> and then call another one to pull data back again.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do 
> this in Access?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> David Emerson
>
> Dalyn Software Ltd
>
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From gustav at cactus.dk  Thu Sep 10 00:46:10 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:46:10 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB1692B0FC08A4E5F7AA699B99CA270@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi David

It depends on how data are going to be pushed. 
Is it a regular upload, a POST, or is it by extending the URL with parameters?

For the latter, you can find a lot of examples in my project VBA.CurrencyExchange:

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.CurrencyExchange

You don't mention the format of the data that will be pulled. My project demonstrates three methods.

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data and then call another one to pull data back again.
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do this in Access?
>
> Regards
>
> David Emerson
> Dalyn Software Ltd
> Wellington, New Zealand


From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz  Thu Sep 10 01:07:25 2020
From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:07:25 +1200
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR10MB1692B0FC08A4E5F7AA699B99CA270@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1PR10MB1692B0FC08A4E5F7AA699B99CA270@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <007001d68738$a9d5fca0$fd81f5e0$@dalyn.co.nz>

Thanks Gustav,

I was able to modify your code from the recent Random Number generator.

Regards

David Emerson
Dalyn Software Ltd
Wellington, New Zealand



-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Gustav
Brock via AccessD
Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 5:46 pm
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Cc: Gustav Brock <gustav at cactus.dk>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

Hi David

It depends on how data are going to be pushed. 
Is it a regular upload, a POST, or is it by extending the URL with
parameters?

For the latter, you can find a lot of examples in my project
VBA.CurrencyExchange:

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.CurrencyExchange

You don't mention the format of the data that will be pulled. My project
demonstrates three methods.

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data and
then call another one to pull data back again.
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do this
in Access?
>
> Regards
>
> David Emerson
> Dalyn Software Ltd
> Wellington, New Zealand

-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From gustav at cactus.dk  Thu Sep 10 01:13:34 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 06:13:34 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB169257C18F9423F5965B2C5ACA270@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi David

Oh, right. That was another example.

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> 
Sendt: 10. september 2020 08:07
Til: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Cc: Gustav Brock <gustav at cactus.dk>
Emne: RE: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

Thanks Gustav,

I was able to modify your code from the recent Random Number generator.

Regards

David Emerson
Dalyn Software Ltd
Wellington, New Zealand



-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Gustav Brock via AccessD
Sent: Thursday, 10 September 2020 5:46 pm
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Cc: Gustav Brock <gustav at cactus.dk>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

Hi David

It depends on how data are going to be pushed. 
Is it a regular upload, a POST, or is it by extending the URL with parameters?

For the latter, you can find a lot of examples in my project
VBA.CurrencyExchange:

https://github.com/GustavBrock/VBA.CurrencyExchange

You don't mention the format of the data that will be pulled. My project demonstrates three methods.

/gustav

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data and then call another one to pull data back again.
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do this in Access?
>
> Regards
>
> David Emerson
> Dalyn Software Ltd
> Wellington, New Zealand 



From mar.ko at verizon.net  Thu Sep 10 18:46:52 2020
From: mar.ko at verizon.net (Mark Simms)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:46:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_ec2K=HS0twsDNHYM3B+hNktAP+WMoi7tnkeXxcJu8CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005501d66ec3$05881210$10983630$@dalyn.co.nz>
	<CAA_iUE_ec2K=HS0twsDNHYM3B+hNktAP+WMoi7tnkeXxcJu8CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <855819779.2804572.1599781612437@mail.yahoo.com>

Indeed John.....I experienced the same when trying to use a stock trading API.Excel's STA just couldn't hack it...the CPU core would max-out.

Mark Simms
marksimms at verizon.net


-----Original Message-----
From: John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com>
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 9, 2020 5:02 pm
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Calling API's from VBA

The problem is that VBA is single threaded. As long as it only takes a few
seconds you're fine otherwise it appears to be locked up. I ended up using
c# and threads.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 23:05 <newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz> wrote:

> Hi Listers,
>
>
>
> I have a client that wants to be able to call a web api to push data and
> then call another one to pull data back again.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of resources that can give me guidance as how to do this
> in
> Access?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> David Emerson
>
> Dalyn Software Ltd
>
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com

From jwcolby at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 11:42:54 2020
From: jwcolby at gmail.com (John Colby)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:42:54 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
Message-ID: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>

1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?

2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in

-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From rockysmolin2 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 11:50:53 2020
From: rockysmolin2 at gmail.com (rocky smolin)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:50:53 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004201d68d12$b5442c80$1fcc8580$@gmail.com>

I develop in 2010. I keep things simple so I don't run into problems with
folks who use later versions.  The only problem I've had is with those who
use 64-bit access and that is worked around with PtrSafe. 

All my previous clients are on 2010 or later. So I don't have a problem with
broken references because the later version of Access will update the
library reference to its version.

r



-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of
John Colby
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 9:43 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version

1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?

2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in

-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From gustav at cactus.dk  Thu Sep 17 12:21:08 2020
From: gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:21:08 +0000
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1PR10MB1692530DD5FECF96E9FD3806CA3E0@HE1PR10MB1692.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi John

1) 365 64-bit

2) Any, down to Access 2.0

/gustav

________________________________
Fra: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> p? vegne af John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com>
Sendt: 17. september 2020 18:42
Til: Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Emne: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version

1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?

2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in

--
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Thu Sep 17 13:04:33 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 14:04:33 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1ioBH02HS=6FuE9WDJO_a1kh9HJDZZmUdkHyPX5o_bSpg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi JWC,
I consider myself semi-retired; ias Michael Corleone said, "I keep trying
to get out, but they keep dragging me back in." Most of the Access  apps I
wrote required a complete understanding of the particular business or
governmental niche. For example, one app I wrote (for a travel-event
company, i.e. given a tour by U2, they would buy 400 tickets to each stop
on the entire, then package these with flight pans and hotel bookings and
even travel from airport to hotel to concert and back, and the return
flight -- all done with a click. The email reply would list your itinerary
in chronological order, al steps arranged by date and time. Initially, I
came on board to solve a small problem, but as I accumulated an
understanding of the business, I suggested improvements. For example, why
not pipe all this data into an entry into an accounting system they
currently use?
 Add to this business model four different branches loosely defined by
time-zone; combine this with the limited-inventory problem. Eventually this
grew into an enterprise system. Should I retire or be run over by a bus, it
would take a long time to educate a new programmer, no matter how gifted,
to take over. Therefore about 30% of my time was devoted to documenting the
system and the business, so that an incoming developer could read those
hundred pages at least twice, and eventually come to an understanding of
the model.
To be sure, I made lots of mistakes, the largest one involving what began
as a local app and then required migration to SQL Server and Terminal
Services, so that everyone in the four offices (each in a different time
zone) knew exactly how many seats were left for any given concert. Add to
this, "Do you want to fly first class? Ditto for hotel accomodation, etc.
Each successful step exposed new problems to solve. This was most certainly
not a top-down problem, nor a bottom-up problem. I can't think of an
acronym for it, but the essential idea is this: 1. Begin with a small
problem.
2. Solve it.
3. The solution presents new opportunities, i.e. new problems.
Repeat.

I have some other examples, but I'm sure that you do too. So let's hear
about them.

On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 12:43 PM John Colby <jwcolby at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?
>
> 2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in
>
> --
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz  Thu Sep 17 14:40:15 2020
From: newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz (newsgrps at dalyn.co.nz)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 07:40:15 +1200
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d68d2a$600b6270$20222750$@dalyn.co.nz>

Hi John,

1) 365 32-bit

2) Any, down to Access 2010

Regards

David Emerson
Dalyn Software Ltd
Wellington, New Zealand



-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of John Colby
Sent: Friday, 18 September 2020 4:43 am
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version

1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?

2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in

-- 
John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From tinanfields at torchlake.com  Thu Sep 17 16:21:35 2020
From: tinanfields at torchlake.com (Tina N Fields)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:21:35 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e213b9ea-8f65-1aab-7365-df61e7e2a1bf@torchlake.com>

1) 2013 32-bit

2) 2007 - 2013

Tina Norris Fields
231-322-2787
tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com

On 9/17/2020 12:42 PM, John Colby wrote:
> 1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?
>
> 2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in
>

From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Thu Sep 17 17:00:27 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 08:00:27 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Poll - What Access version
In-Reply-To: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA_iUE_Gj046C7jPZOi9ENvJ=paU7q842iq=FMNLgU6EDZizmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F63DC7B.10365.2704752C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

1. 2010, 32bit.   It's still commonly in use and developing in anything higher wil cause 
problems for some clients.  I have not encountered any problems running FE developed in 
2010 on any later version.  
I do make sure that I use PTRSAFE for all extenal API or DLL calls  to deal with 32/64 bit 
installations. (I make a fair bit of use of API and other DLLs)

2. I've still got the odd .mdb back end out there but update them where I can.
I occasionally come across old installations.  Any front end on 2007 or earlier  and I tell them 
they have to upgrade.
. 

On 17 Sep 2020 at 12:42, John Colby wrote:

> 1) What access version(s) do you develop new in?
> 
> 2) What Access versions do you maintain databases in
> 
> -- 
> John W. Colby
> Colby Consulting
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> 



From davidmcafee at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 15:28:16 2020
From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 13:28:16 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
In-Reply-To: <5F5809AB.22172.1114502B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
	<5F5809AB.22172.1114502B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <CAMhYZWZtjR=LhqFOm7ht8eUSqzJYXttespuMoykzEx9VUd83nw@mail.gmail.com>

I might be wrong, but I think the diagrams are going away with SSMS 2019

Also, not sure if any of you know that Access reports can be converted
(imported) into SSRS RDLs using Visual Studio Community (free) and SSDT.

I had a few reports that contained embedded sub reports which failed the
import process.

I exported those into a new Access database then saved a version of the
main report without the embedded subreport. That new version imported fine
and I manually embedded the subreport rdl into the main rdl.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020, 3:46 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
wrote:

> In SQL Server Management Studio  (using 2014)
>
> In the  Treeview:
>
> Server
> ....Databases
> ......MyDatabase
> .........Database Diagrams
>
> New Diagram  (Unless you've got an aappropriate one already there)
> Add desired tables
>
> Click on the "record selector" of a field in one table and drag it over a
> field in another table to
> create a relationship.  You will be prompted for the reationsip details.
>
> To delete a relationship, right click on the relationship and select
> "Delete relationships..."
> You wil be prompted for confirmation.
>
> On 8 Sep 2020 at 21:26, John Bartow wrote:
>
> > Since SQL Server was recently brought up...
> >
> > Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships
> > similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?
> >
> > John B
> >
> >
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 18:41:03 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 19:41:03 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
In-Reply-To: <CAMhYZWZtjR=LhqFOm7ht8eUSqzJYXttespuMoykzEx9VUd83nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
	<5F5809AB.22172.1114502B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<CAMhYZWZtjR=LhqFOm7ht8eUSqzJYXttespuMoykzEx9VUd83nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1gvmhCUXbkns063uyoG8xFj0K_v3iF1txGoB_=BNE0p8w@mail.gmail.com>

I have tried all the diagrammers mentioned, and concluded that a
third-party solution is best. I still use a now ancient version of
PowerDesigner, a tool dedicated solely to diagramming, but its virtue is
its independence from any specific

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 4:29 PM David McAfee <davidmcafee at gmail.com> wrote:

> I might be wrong, but I think the diagrams are going away with SSMS 2019
>
> Also, not sure if any of you know that Access reports can be converted
> (imported) into SSRS RDLs using Visual Studio Community (free) and SSDT.
>
> I had a few reports that contained embedded sub reports which failed the
> import process.
>
> I exported those into a new Access database then saved a version of the
> main report without the embedded subreport. That new version imported fine
> and I manually embedded the subreport rdl into the main rdl.
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020, 3:46 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
> wrote:
>
> > In SQL Server Management Studio  (using 2014)
> >
> > In the  Treeview:
> >
> > Server
> > ....Databases
> > ......MyDatabase
> > .........Database Diagrams
> >
> > New Diagram  (Unless you've got an aappropriate one already there)
> > Add desired tables
> >
> > Click on the "record selector" of a field in one table and drag it over a
> > field in another table to
> > create a relationship.  You will be prompted for the reationsip details.
> >
> > To delete a relationship, right click on the relationship and select
> > "Delete relationships..."
> > You wil be prompted for confirmation.
> >
> > On 8 Sep 2020 at 21:26, John Bartow wrote:
> >
> > > Since SQL Server was recently brought up...
> > >
> > > Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships
> > > similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?
> > >
> > > John B
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > AccessD mailing list
> > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>


-- 
Arthur

From fuller.artful at gmail.com  Fri Sep 18 18:41:31 2020
From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 19:41:31 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] SQL Server GUI tools
In-Reply-To: <CAEPJO1gvmhCUXbkns063uyoG8xFj0K_v3iF1txGoB_=BNE0p8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CH2PR11MB4327E716C3D34927D25A8249D8290@CH2PR11MB4327.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
	<5F5809AB.22172.1114502B@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<CAMhYZWZtjR=LhqFOm7ht8eUSqzJYXttespuMoykzEx9VUd83nw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEPJO1gvmhCUXbkns063uyoG8xFj0K_v3iF1txGoB_=BNE0p8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEPJO1iLh2T_svxRutpHsdy+M0MRxoYXanhkPFtqBWKTePFU9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Con

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 7:41 PM Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have tried all the diagrammers mentioned, and concluded that a
> third-party solution is best. I still use a now ancient version of
> PowerDesigner, a tool dedicated solely to diagramming, but its virtue is
> its independence from any specific
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 4:29 PM David McAfee <davidmcafee at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I might be wrong, but I think the diagrams are going away with SSMS 2019
>>
>> Also, not sure if any of you know that Access reports can be converted
>> (imported) into SSRS RDLs using Visual Studio Community (free) and SSDT.
>>
>> I had a few reports that contained embedded sub reports which failed the
>> import process.
>>
>> I exported those into a new Access database then saved a version of the
>> main report without the embedded subreport. That new version imported fine
>> and I manually embedded the subreport rdl into the main rdl.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020, 3:46 PM Stuart McLachlan <stuart at lexacorp.com.pg>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > In SQL Server Management Studio  (using 2014)
>> >
>> > In the  Treeview:
>> >
>> > Server
>> > ....Databases
>> > ......MyDatabase
>> > .........Database Diagrams
>> >
>> > New Diagram  (Unless you've got an aappropriate one already there)
>> > Add desired tables
>> >
>> > Click on the "record selector" of a field in one table and drag it over
>> a
>> > field in another table to
>> > create a relationship.  You will be prompted for the reationsip details.
>> >
>> > To delete a relationship, right click on the relationship and select
>> > "Delete relationships..."
>> > You wil be prompted for confirmation.
>> >
>> > On 8 Sep 2020 at 21:26, John Bartow wrote:
>> >
>> > > Since SQL Server was recently brought up...
>> > >
>> > > Is there a decent tool to graphically layout tables and relationships
>> > > similar to how the Access relationships dialog window works?
>> > >
>> > > John B
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > AccessD mailing list
>> > > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > AccessD mailing list
>> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>> >
>> --
>> AccessD mailing list
>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Arthur
>
>

-- 
Arthur

From davidmcafee at gmail.com  Thu Sep 24 20:30:06 2020
From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 18:30:06 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>

I need some help with a table design ideas for a new project that I?m
starting, and was wondering if I could bounce my idea off of several of
you. :)



Currently, the company that I work for is tracking our cell phones and who
they are assigned to by different departments*, each* in their own way and
reconciling the lists is a major pain.


Currently Accounting will complain because the location for the employee in
the IT departments list is incorrect, or the employee ID in the user fields
of the Verizon portal has the wrong Employee ID or Cost center.



I want to make an app to track it in one place, using source data from each
location (that is managed by each of these locations), so the I.T. techs
pick an employee and device and assign one to the other and not have to
worry about the other data.



HR has Employee data (ID, name, start /end dates?)

Accounting has their cost center data by employee

Verizon cell data should be the source for the phone data (phone Number,
IMEI (Device ID), ICCID (Sim number), model, manufacture..)

Old / existing system to grab the current assignment of employee to cell.


Doing it this way, if something is incorrect in regards to the employee, HR
fixes it in their source. Accounting fixes any errors related to the cost
center / employee relation in their system.

The basic idea is simple, store the PK for the employee and the matched
cell ID, and when reporting use the links to the other systems for their
info (name, cost center, office location?)



Looking at the flat files that are downloaded from Verizon (VZw), we have
roughly 1500 cell phones spread across six VZw account numbers.



I?m thinking of setting up something like this:



tblVzAccounts (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

vzAccPK (AutoNum PK)

AccNo (Txt) 955321232-00023

EDT (Entry Date Time, default value=Now())



tblPhoneNumbers  (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
ETL process)

PNID (AutoNUm PK)

PhoneNumber (text/CHAR(10) no dashes/characters stored, only numbers)
2135551212

ContractStartDate (Date)

ContractEndDate (Date)

EDT



tblIineStatus (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

LineStatusID (An PK)

LineStatus (CHAR(1)- A, S, D)

LineStatusDescription Active, Suspended, Deactivated)

EDT



tblPhones (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

PhID (AN PK)

IMEI (Text)

Mfg

Model

EDT



tblSIMCard (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process, but sims could also be swapped in the field)

SimID (AN PKID)

ICCID (Text)

EDT



tblDevice (Junction table to put all of the normalized PKs together,
keeping a history)

DeviceID (AN PK)

PNID (FK)

PHID (FK)

SimID (FK)

LineStatusID (FK) ?Not sure whether to place this here, or have a separate
junction table for DeviceID and LineStatusID

EDT



tblEmpDeviceJunct (Employee Device Junction table, used to mate the device
ID with the employee ID)

EDJPKID (AN PKID)

DeviceID (FK)

EmpID (FK)

EDT

EUID (Entry User ID, Auto Inserted)



I?m thinking I still need a device status and/or location table, and
possibly its PK as an FK in the junction table above.

I?m also thinking of these scenarios that I?ve witnessed (even though, I
was told they don?t happen)

A phone can be damaged and in need of repair

A phone can be damaged and cant be repaired, thus will need to be
deactivated

A phone can be unassigned (thinking of adding an ?unassigned? employee to
the employee table)

A Sim Card can be swapped between phones (Good and non working to retain
phone number for employee)

A sim card can be removed from a phone (damaged phone laying around)

A sim card can be added to a phone (New/used phone, removed card from non
functional phone, or Extra sim card laying around)

A phone (or phones) can be taken by a technician to their house to be
worked on at home




The following three situations can also occur, but they have to be done on
the Verizon website, so I figure, the ETL process can handle this part)

Swap phones between lines

Remove phone from line

Add phone to existing line



Does this layout sound right? What would you do differently?

The front end will be unbound and all changes are new insertions to the
junction table, keeping an audit trail.



Thanks,



David McAfee

From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Thu Sep 24 21:59:43 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 12:59:43 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>,
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>,
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>

At any point of time you can have:

One phone number attached to one account.
One phone number attached to one SIM.
More than one SIM in some phones
Multiple phones per employee

I'd look at five tables and four link tables with records being time delimited :
Employee - Phone
Phone -SIM
SIM -Line
Line- Account

Each one with a EDT and a "superceded datetime" (SDT).
Indexed on the first field and EDT.  Second field needs to allow nulls

Current status data can be retreived  by joins between those five tables where SDT is null.










On 24 Sep 2020 at 18:30, David McAfee wrote:

> I need some help with a table design ideas for a new project that
> I?m starting, and was wondering if I could bounce my idea off of
> several of you. :)
> 
> 
> 
> Currently, the company that I work for is tracking our cell phones and
> who they are assigned to by different departments*, each* in their own
> way and reconciling the lists is a major pain.
> 
> 
> Currently Accounting will complain because the location for the
> employee in the IT departments list is incorrect, or the employee ID
> in the user fields of the Verizon portal has the wrong Employee ID or
> Cost center.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to make an app to track it in one place, using source data from
> each location (that is managed by each of these locations), so the
> I.T. techs pick an employee and device and assign one to the other and
> not have to worry about the other data.
> 
> 
> 
> HR has Employee data (ID, name, start /end dates...)
> 
> Accounting has their cost center data by employee
> 
> Verizon cell data should be the source for the phone data (phone
> Number, IMEI (Device ID), ICCID (Sim number), model, manufacture..)
> 
> Old / existing system to grab the current assignment of employee to
> cell.
> 
> 
> Doing it this way, if something is incorrect in regards to the
> employee, HR fixes it in their source. Accounting fixes any errors
> related to the cost center / employee relation in their system.
> 
> The basic idea is simple, store the PK for the employee and the
> matched cell ID, and when reporting use the links to the other systems
> for their info (name, cost center, office location...)
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the flat files that are downloaded from Verizon (VZw), we
> have roughly 1500 cell phones spread across six VZw account numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> I?m thinking of setting up something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> tblVzAccounts (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> vzAccPK (AutoNum PK)
> 
> AccNo (Txt) 955321232-00023
> 
> EDT (Entry Date Time, default value=Now())
> 
> 
> 
> tblPhoneNumbers  (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> PNID (AutoNUm PK)
> 
> PhoneNumber (text/CHAR(10) no dashes/characters stored, only numbers)
> 2135551212
> 
> ContractStartDate (Date)
> 
> ContractEndDate (Date)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblIineStatus (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> LineStatusID (An PK)
> 
> LineStatus (CHAR(1)- A, S, D)
> 
> LineStatusDescription Active, Suspended, Deactivated)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblPhones (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
> ETL process)
> 
> PhID (AN PK)
> 
> IMEI (Text)
> 
> Mfg
> 
> Model
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblSIMCard (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
> ETL process, but sims could also be swapped in the field)
> 
> SimID (AN PKID)
> 
> ICCID (Text)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblDevice (Junction table to put all of the normalized PKs together,
> keeping a history)
> 
> DeviceID (AN PK)
> 
> PNID (FK)
> 
> PHID (FK)
> 
> SimID (FK)
> 
> LineStatusID (FK) -Not sure whether to place this here, or have a
> separate junction table for DeviceID and LineStatusID
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblEmpDeviceJunct (Employee Device Junction table, used to mate the
> device ID with the employee ID)
> 
> EDJPKID (AN PKID)
> 
> DeviceID (FK)
> 
> EmpID (FK)
> 
> EDT
> 
> EUID (Entry User ID, Auto Inserted)
> 
> 
> 
> I?m thinking I still need a device status and/or location table, and
> possibly its PK as an FK in the junction table above.
> 
> I?m also thinking of these scenarios that I?ve witnessed (even
> though, I was told they don?t happen)
> 
> A phone can be damaged and in need of repair
> 
> A phone can be damaged and cant be repaired, thus will need to be
> deactivated
> 
> A phone can be unassigned (thinking of adding an "unassigned"
> employee to the employee table)
> 
> A Sim Card can be swapped between phones (Good and non working to
> retain phone number for employee)
> 
> A sim card can be removed from a phone (damaged phone laying around)
> 
> A sim card can be added to a phone (New/used phone, removed card from
> non functional phone, or Extra sim card laying around)
> 
> A phone (or phones) can be taken by a technician to their house to be
> worked on at home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following three situations can also occur, but they have to be
> done on the Verizon website, so I figure, the ETL process can handle
> this part)
> 
> Swap phones between lines
> 
> Remove phone from line
> 
> Add phone to existing line
> 
> 
> 
> Does this layout sound right? What would you do differently?
> 
> The front end will be unbound and all changes are new insertions to
> the junction table, keeping an audit trail.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> David McAfee
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com




From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Sep 25 04:45:22 2020
From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:45:22 +0100
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>,
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>,
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO8VDlNCBfdEkctCy61lm0HCgAAAEAAAADr60dhYNVlOqJnCgllMUWkBAAAAAA==@blueyonder.co.uk>

AFAIK 
Some other things to consider:

You can have multiple phones on an account
Have the SIM's moved between phones
Have phones passed on between assignees 
either intended to be permanently, for a short period, or just a day loaner.

Also - Phones assigned to 'posts', and to teams - as in manager says who gets
the phone for weekend on-call

And there are the 'personal' numbers that get directed to whatever phone the
number owner wants to use
  
Also what about tablets etc, that come with some phone contracts - so that would
be broadband usage 
Or more important - tracking that the tablet stays with the current phone
holder
And .. earbuds, handsfree, car-phone holders OK - depends on the devices being
associated with the phone - the person, or managed separately

And then there is the carry-over of unused 'allowances' months data 

Not saying you need to include those in the tables, forms, reports and data
exports
Just the design should include consideration of the possibilities and that you
were misinformed by those currently saying what is needed.

And - then consider the Microsoft 365  licencing terms:
A single non-corporate 'subscription' agreement allowing 5 users,
each user allowed a (not concurrently used?)  copy on a PC (windows or applemac)
on a tablet/mobile device and on a phone + backups?
with a legal requirement to deal with all those installations/instances when the
subscription is not continued.

Not forgetting the 'Forget me' requirements  GDPR etc. and requirements to keep
data in the 'region' where it was collected as well as fulfil legal disclosure,
and concealment demands.

Anything personal including usage - and numbers called etc.

Have fun fulfilling all those requirements simultaneously  and the combination
of shared and passed on facilities & devices.

JimB


-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of Stuart
McLachlan
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 4:00 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design

At any point of time you can have:

One phone number attached to one account.
One phone number attached to one SIM.
More than one SIM in some phones
Multiple phones per employee

I'd look at five tables and four link tables with records being time delimited :
Employee - Phone
Phone -SIM
SIM -Line
Line- Account

Each one with a EDT and a "superceded datetime" (SDT).
Indexed on the first field and EDT.  Second field needs to allow nulls

Current status data can be retreived  by joins between those five tables where
SDT is null.










On 24 Sep 2020 at 18:30, David McAfee wrote:

> I need some help with a table design ideas for a new project that
> I?m starting, and was wondering if I could bounce my idea off of
> several of you. :)
> 
> 
> 
> Currently, the company that I work for is tracking our cell phones and
> who they are assigned to by different departments*, each* in their own
> way and reconciling the lists is a major pain.
> 
> 
> Currently Accounting will complain because the location for the
> employee in the IT departments list is incorrect, or the employee ID
> in the user fields of the Verizon portal has the wrong Employee ID or
> Cost center.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to make an app to track it in one place, using source data from
> each location (that is managed by each of these locations), so the
> I.T. techs pick an employee and device and assign one to the other and
> not have to worry about the other data.
> 
> 
> 
> HR has Employee data (ID, name, start /end dates...)
> 
> Accounting has their cost center data by employee
> 
> Verizon cell data should be the source for the phone data (phone
> Number, IMEI (Device ID), ICCID (Sim number), model, manufacture..)
> 
> Old / existing system to grab the current assignment of employee to
> cell.
> 
> 
> Doing it this way, if something is incorrect in regards to the
> employee, HR fixes it in their source. Accounting fixes any errors
> related to the cost center / employee relation in their system.
> 
> The basic idea is simple, store the PK for the employee and the
> matched cell ID, and when reporting use the links to the other systems
> for their info (name, cost center, office location...)
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the flat files that are downloaded from Verizon (VZw), we
> have roughly 1500 cell phones spread across six VZw account numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> I?m thinking of setting up something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> tblVzAccounts (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> vzAccPK (AutoNum PK)
> 
> AccNo (Txt) 955321232-00023
> 
> EDT (Entry Date Time, default value=Now())
> 
> 
> 
> tblPhoneNumbers  (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> PNID (AutoNUm PK)
> 
> PhoneNumber (text/CHAR(10) no dashes/characters stored, only numbers)
> 2135551212
> 
> ContractStartDate (Date)
> 
> ContractEndDate (Date)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblIineStatus (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized
> during ETL process)
> 
> LineStatusID (An PK)
> 
> LineStatus (CHAR(1)- A, S, D)
> 
> LineStatusDescription Active, Suspended, Deactivated)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblPhones (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
> ETL process)
> 
> PhID (AN PK)
> 
> IMEI (Text)
> 
> Mfg
> 
> Model
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblSIMCard (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
> ETL process, but sims could also be swapped in the field)
> 
> SimID (AN PKID)
> 
> ICCID (Text)
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblDevice (Junction table to put all of the normalized PKs together,
> keeping a history)
> 
> DeviceID (AN PK)
> 
> PNID (FK)
> 
> PHID (FK)
> 
> SimID (FK)
> 
> LineStatusID (FK) -Not sure whether to place this here, or have a
> separate junction table for DeviceID and LineStatusID
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
> 
> tblEmpDeviceJunct (Employee Device Junction table, used to mate the
> device ID with the employee ID)
> 
> EDJPKID (AN PKID)
> 
> DeviceID (FK)
> 
> EmpID (FK)
> 
> EDT
> 
> EUID (Entry User ID, Auto Inserted)
> 
> 
> 
> I?m thinking I still need a device status and/or location table, and
> possibly its PK as an FK in the junction table above.
> 
> I?m also thinking of these scenarios that I?ve witnessed (even
> though, I was told they don?t happen)
> 
> A phone can be damaged and in need of repair
> 
> A phone can be damaged and cant be repaired, thus will need to be
> deactivated
> 
> A phone can be unassigned (thinking of adding an "unassigned"
> employee to the employee table)
> 
> A Sim Card can be swapped between phones (Good and non working to
> retain phone number for employee)
> 
> A sim card can be removed from a phone (damaged phone laying around)
> 
> A sim card can be added to a phone (New/used phone, removed card from
> non functional phone, or Extra sim card laying around)
> 
> A phone (or phones) can be taken by a technician to their house to be
> worked on at home
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The following three situations can also occur, but they have to be
> done on the Verizon website, so I figure, the ETL process can handle
> this part)
> 
> Swap phones between lines
> 
> Remove phone from line
> 
> Add phone to existing line
> 
> 
> 
> Does this layout sound right? What would you do differently?
> 
> The front end will be unbound and all changes are new insertions to
> the junction table, keeping an audit trail.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> David McAfee
> -- 
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com



-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com



From jimdettman at verizon.net  Fri Sep 25 07:12:04 2020
From: jimdettman at verizon.net (Jim Dettman)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 08:12:04 -0400
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a101d69335$15727260$40575720$@verizon.net>

David,

 I think your design is right on.   The only question is what does a "Line" represent?   If it?s a phone #, then it does not need to be a separate table.

 If however it is a certain number of Lines that you can have against an account, and the line may or may not currently be assigned a phone # and a device, then it is a separate entity.   i.e. I have account with Verizon, pay for 200 lines.   190 of them are currently in use (have an assigned phone number).   Out of those 190, 185 currently have a device assigned to them (phone + SIM card).

So at the moment, you have:

 Accounts
 Lines
 Phone Numbers
 
 Phones
 SIM Cards

 With a combination of a phone and a SIM card being a device.

Jim.

-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD On Behalf Of David McAfee
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 9:30 PM
To: Microsoft Access Database Discussion List <ACCESS-L at peach.ease.lsoft.com>; Access Developers discussion and problem solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design

I need some help with a table design ideas for a new project that I?m
starting, and was wondering if I could bounce my idea off of several of
you. :)



Currently, the company that I work for is tracking our cell phones and who
they are assigned to by different departments*, each* in their own way and
reconciling the lists is a major pain.


Currently Accounting will complain because the location for the employee in
the IT departments list is incorrect, or the employee ID in the user fields
of the Verizon portal has the wrong Employee ID or Cost center.



I want to make an app to track it in one place, using source data from each
location (that is managed by each of these locations), so the I.T. techs
pick an employee and device and assign one to the other and not have to
worry about the other data.



HR has Employee data (ID, name, start /end dates?)

Accounting has their cost center data by employee

Verizon cell data should be the source for the phone data (phone Number,
IMEI (Device ID), ICCID (Sim number), model, manufacture..)

Old / existing system to grab the current assignment of employee to cell.


Doing it this way, if something is incorrect in regards to the employee, HR
fixes it in their source. Accounting fixes any errors related to the cost
center / employee relation in their system.

The basic idea is simple, store the PK for the employee and the matched
cell ID, and when reporting use the links to the other systems for their
info (name, cost center, office location?)



Looking at the flat files that are downloaded from Verizon (VZw), we have
roughly 1500 cell phones spread across six VZw account numbers.



I?m thinking of setting up something like this:



tblVzAccounts (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

vzAccPK (AutoNum PK)

AccNo (Txt) 955321232-00023

EDT (Entry Date Time, default value=Now())



tblPhoneNumbers  (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
ETL process)

PNID (AutoNUm PK)

PhoneNumber (text/CHAR(10) no dashes/characters stored, only numbers)
2135551212

ContractStartDate (Date)

ContractEndDate (Date)

EDT



tblIineStatus (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

LineStatusID (An PK)

LineStatus (CHAR(1)- A, S, D)

LineStatusDescription Active, Suspended, Deactivated)

EDT



tblPhones (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process)

PhID (AN PK)

IMEI (Text)

Mfg

Model

EDT



tblSIMCard (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
process, but sims could also be swapped in the field)

SimID (AN PKID)

ICCID (Text)

EDT



tblDevice (Junction table to put all of the normalized PKs together,
keeping a history)

DeviceID (AN PK)

PNID (FK)

PHID (FK)

SimID (FK)

LineStatusID (FK) ?Not sure whether to place this here, or have a separate
junction table for DeviceID and LineStatusID

EDT



tblEmpDeviceJunct (Employee Device Junction table, used to mate the device
ID with the employee ID)

EDJPKID (AN PKID)

DeviceID (FK)

EmpID (FK)

EDT

EUID (Entry User ID, Auto Inserted)



I?m thinking I still need a device status and/or location table, and
possibly its PK as an FK in the junction table above.

I?m also thinking of these scenarios that I?ve witnessed (even though, I
was told they don?t happen)

A phone can be damaged and in need of repair

A phone can be damaged and cant be repaired, thus will need to be
deactivated

A phone can be unassigned (thinking of adding an ?unassigned? employee to
the employee table)

A Sim Card can be swapped between phones (Good and non working to retain
phone number for employee)

A sim card can be removed from a phone (damaged phone laying around)

A sim card can be added to a phone (New/used phone, removed card from non
functional phone, or Extra sim card laying around)

A phone (or phones) can be taken by a technician to their house to be
worked on at home




The following three situations can also occur, but they have to be done on
the Verizon website, so I figure, the ETL process can handle this part)

Swap phones between lines

Remove phone from line

Add phone to existing line



Does this layout sound right? What would you do differently?

The front end will be unbound and all changes are new insertions to the
junction table, keeping an audit trail.



Thanks,



David McAfee
-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com



From davidmcafee at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 12:53:50 2020
From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 10:53:50 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <01a101d69335$15727260$40575720$@verizon.net>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01a101d69335$15727260$40575720$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAMhYZWbVPVa=Aet7TmMXRz4_wFFWs77Tvd5k6yABK-sF-jmVkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Jim,

A "line" is a phone number.
Our company currently has roughly 1500 cell phone numbers spread among 6
verizon accounts numbers.

Originally I was advised to use the Phone number as a PK, and not wanting
to go off on the whole natural vs surrogate PK holy war, I should them
examples in their systems where phone numbers were missing or replaced with
notes.

Your second paragraph describing the 200 paid phone numbers (lines) is
correct.

I guess I don't really need to separate the accounts and lines (other than
for normalization reasons).


On Fri, Sep 25, 2020, 5:12 AM Jim Dettman via AccessD <
accessd at databaseadvisors.com> wrote:

> David,
>
>  I think your design is right on.   The only question is what does a
> "Line" represent?   If it?s a phone #, then it does not need to be a
> separate table.
>
>  If however it is a certain number of Lines that you can have against an
> account, and the line may or may not currently be assigned a phone # and a
> device, then it is a separate entity.   i.e. I have account with Verizon,
> pay for 200 lines.   190 of them are currently in use (have an assigned
> phone number).   Out of those 190, 185 currently have a device assigned to
> them (phone + SIM card).
>
> So at the moment, you have:
>
>  Accounts
>  Lines
>  Phone Numbers
>
>  Phones
>  SIM Cards
>
>  With a combination of a phone and a SIM card being a device.
>
> Jim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AccessD On Behalf Of David McAfee
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 9:30 PM
> To: Microsoft Access Database Discussion List <
> ACCESS-L at peach.ease.lsoft.com>; Access Developers discussion and problem
> solving <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
> Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
>
> I need some help with a table design ideas for a new project that I?m
> starting, and was wondering if I could bounce my idea off of several of
> you. :)
>
>
>
> Currently, the company that I work for is tracking our cell phones and who
> they are assigned to by different departments*, each* in their own way and
> reconciling the lists is a major pain.
>
>
> Currently Accounting will complain because the location for the employee in
> the IT departments list is incorrect, or the employee ID in the user fields
> of the Verizon portal has the wrong Employee ID or Cost center.
>
>
>
> I want to make an app to track it in one place, using source data from each
> location (that is managed by each of these locations), so the I.T. techs
> pick an employee and device and assign one to the other and not have to
> worry about the other data.
>
>
>
> HR has Employee data (ID, name, start /end dates?)
>
> Accounting has their cost center data by employee
>
> Verizon cell data should be the source for the phone data (phone Number,
> IMEI (Device ID), ICCID (Sim number), model, manufacture..)
>
> Old / existing system to grab the current assignment of employee to cell.
>
>
> Doing it this way, if something is incorrect in regards to the employee, HR
> fixes it in their source. Accounting fixes any errors related to the cost
> center / employee relation in their system.
>
> The basic idea is simple, store the PK for the employee and the matched
> cell ID, and when reporting use the links to the other systems for their
> info (name, cost center, office location?)
>
>
>
> Looking at the flat files that are downloaded from Verizon (VZw), we have
> roughly 1500 cell phones spread across six VZw account numbers.
>
>
>
> I?m thinking of setting up something like this:
>
>
>
> tblVzAccounts (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
> process)
>
> vzAccPK (AutoNum PK)
>
> AccNo (Txt) 955321232-00023
>
> EDT (Entry Date Time, default value=Now())
>
>
>
> tblPhoneNumbers  (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during
> ETL process)
>
> PNID (AutoNUm PK)
>
> PhoneNumber (text/CHAR(10) no dashes/characters stored, only numbers)
> 2135551212
>
> ContractStartDate (Date)
>
> ContractEndDate (Date)
>
> EDT
>
>
>
> tblIineStatus (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
> process)
>
> LineStatusID (An PK)
>
> LineStatus (CHAR(1)- A, S, D)
>
> LineStatusDescription Active, Suspended, Deactivated)
>
> EDT
>
>
>
> tblPhones (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
> process)
>
> PhID (AN PK)
>
> IMEI (Text)
>
> Mfg
>
> Model
>
> EDT
>
>
>
> tblSIMCard (pulled from VZw download flat file and normalized during ETL
> process, but sims could also be swapped in the field)
>
> SimID (AN PKID)
>
> ICCID (Text)
>
> EDT
>
>
>
> tblDevice (Junction table to put all of the normalized PKs together,
> keeping a history)
>
> DeviceID (AN PK)
>
> PNID (FK)
>
> PHID (FK)
>
> SimID (FK)
>
> LineStatusID (FK) ?Not sure whether to place this here, or have a separate
> junction table for DeviceID and LineStatusID
>
> EDT
>
>
>
> tblEmpDeviceJunct (Employee Device Junction table, used to mate the device
> ID with the employee ID)
>
> EDJPKID (AN PKID)
>
> DeviceID (FK)
>
> EmpID (FK)
>
> EDT
>
> EUID (Entry User ID, Auto Inserted)
>
>
>
> I?m thinking I still need a device status and/or location table, and
> possibly its PK as an FK in the junction table above.
>
> I?m also thinking of these scenarios that I?ve witnessed (even though, I
> was told they don?t happen)
>
> A phone can be damaged and in need of repair
>
> A phone can be damaged and cant be repaired, thus will need to be
> deactivated
>
> A phone can be unassigned (thinking of adding an ?unassigned? employee to
> the employee table)
>
> A Sim Card can be swapped between phones (Good and non working to retain
> phone number for employee)
>
> A sim card can be removed from a phone (damaged phone laying around)
>
> A sim card can be added to a phone (New/used phone, removed card from non
> functional phone, or Extra sim card laying around)
>
> A phone (or phones) can be taken by a technician to their house to be
> worked on at home
>
>
>
>
> The following three situations can also occur, but they have to be done on
> the Verizon website, so I figure, the ETL process can handle this part)
>
> Swap phones between lines
>
> Remove phone from line
>
> Add phone to existing line
>
>
>
> Does this layout sound right? What would you do differently?
>
> The front end will be unbound and all changes are new insertions to the
> junction table, keeping an audit trail.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> David McAfee
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>

From davidmcafee at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:22:02 2020
From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 11:22:02 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO8VDlNCBfdEkctCy61lm0HCgAAAEAAAADr60dhYNVlOqJnCgllMUWkBAAAAAA==@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO8VDlNCBfdEkctCy61lm0HCgAAAEAAAADr60dhYNVlOqJnCgllMUWkBAAAAAA==@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMhYZWa85_9Tx3cUEbxT22VcjUmaUbx=iAs7X3QZSRtKOCfVyw@mail.gmail.com>

James, you think like I do. Lol!

These department heads hate when I come into planning meetings because I
bring up all of these scenarios. I am always informed that the said
scenarios will never happen then usually do right after hahaha.

I'll answer the rest of your questions inline:


You can have multiple phones on an account
>

Yes we do.  1500 phones on 6 accounts



Have the SIM's moved between phones
>

I was told this doesn't happen but have found examples of it happening



Have phones passed on between assignees either intended to be permanently,
> for a short period, or just a day loaner.



Not supposed to, but yes. This usually happens by their supervisor when
someone goes on a leave of absence.




Also - Phones assigned to 'posts', and to teams - as in manager says who
> gets
> the phone for weekend on-call
>

I have found this scenario as well. Some offices have dedicated "on call"
phones that users take home. These are still assigned to the correct cost
center for accounting purposes. I was thinking of creating an employee such
as "On Call Location X" in my employee table to handle this purpose. I was
also thinking of creating an "unassigned" employee to deal with that
situation.

This is one of the things that I've been flip flopping about. I'm not sure
if I should make my inventory bins and employee assignments the same table.

Phone 1 is with Joe, which gets dropped.
It gets assigned to quarantine/repair
Phone 2 gets assigned to Joe.
Phone 1 is now repaired and is assigned to "unassigned"

From davidmcafee at gmail.com  Fri Sep 25 13:32:14 2020
From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 11:32:14 -0700
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>
Message-ID: <CAMhYZWZVjjwc7MSRN0oJctpb_cvAk7BhG4KTP504f7s2NYkWXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hmmmm, this is a different way of looking at it

I keep thinking in a many to many situation, but there are a few one to
many situations.

At any point of time you can have:
>
> One phone number attached to one account.
>

1500 phones tied to 6 accounts



One phone number attached to one SIM.
>
At a time,  yes, this is correct. But a sim can be pulled or moved to a
different phone.



More than one SIM in some phones
>
Theoretically yes, but we don't have a need. We are a local company, never
travel out of our country. But I guess having a many to many table
structure would handle that.


Multiple phones per employee
>

Not supposed to. The only time that I have seen this so far is when the
techs leave an old/damaged phone assigned to them. I plan to handle this on
the front end of my app.

From jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Sep 25 16:34:08 2020
From: jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk (James Button)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 22:34:08 +0100
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <CAMhYZWa85_9Tx3cUEbxT22VcjUmaUbx=iAs7X3QZSRtKOCfVyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BYAPR18MB3029F4CE493CB141D1F7DEAAC5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>	<BYAPR18MB302942BC3DB47C530E054073C5360@BYAPR18MB3029.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>	<CAMhYZWZoF4HOLTUwUrY00q_U+xqaa_UgAC_jYkemOcFroPhUvg@mail.gmail.com>	<5F6D5D1F.32503.D5CF2AD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO8VDlNCBfdEkctCy61lm0HCgAAAEAAAADr60dhYNVlOqJnCgllMUWkBAAAAAA==@blueyonder.co.uk>
	<CAMhYZWa85_9Tx3cUEbxT22VcjUmaUbx=iAs7X3QZSRtKOCfVyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO8VDlNCBfdEkctCy61lm0HCgAAAEAAAALSJg75jnShDk+BLB5ZWNN0BAAAAAA==@blueyonder.co.uk>

A possible approach to the accounting department 'needs' and 'requirements'
And - get that agreed in writing - and minutes of at least one meeting

Phone charges go to the department manager where the phone was assigned
It is the managers responsibility to notify 'Accounts' of the assignment of the
phone ( and other devices) and of the SIM from their department pool to
individuals 
And to recover the device and SIM  and return them to the appropriate
acquisitions management department.

Alternatively they will have to accept the assignment of costs as managed by
'Accounts'

Yup 
I have been employees at government sites and on their projects as well as
multinationals 

First response when a new task/project is mentioned -
"Certainly - can you provide a cost centre budget for the feasibility and
associated document preparation work,  please. "

Surprising how much work never gets any budget allocation for even that.


Oh! and re phone 1 and 2 - 

Phone 1 gets lost - 
Or cannot be found 
Maybe the battery is totally flat so it doesn't ring, and location services
don't work
Or it's in the sewerage system !
Or in the foreign hire car.


And  I wasn't really intending to join in on the design - 
Just indicating possibilities for which I believe you should consider design
allowances, or avoidance techniques.

Especially if you get told you should answer with either a "yes2 or a "no" to
questions 
As in If I 'Save'  will the file be overwritten?
(No mention of the app, or the working (team etc.) environment, or even the
user's logged-in and access status and authority.)

JimB
 


-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD <accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com> On Behalf Of David McAfee
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 7:22 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Cc: James Button <jamesbutton at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design

James, you think like I do. Lol!

These department heads hate when I come into planning meetings because I
bring up all of these scenarios. I am always informed that the said
scenarios will never happen then usually do right after hahaha.

I'll answer the rest of your questions inline:


You can have multiple phones on an account
>

Yes we do.  1500 phones on 6 accounts



Have the SIM's moved between phones
>

I was told this doesn't happen but have found examples of it happening



Have phones passed on between assignees either intended to be permanently,
> for a short period, or just a day loaner.



Not supposed to, but yes. This usually happens by their supervisor when
someone goes on a leave of absence.




Also - Phones assigned to 'posts', and to teams - as in manager says who
> gets
> the phone for weekend on-call
>

I have found this scenario as well. Some offices have dedicated "on call"
phones that users take home. These are still assigned to the correct cost
center for accounting purposes. I was thinking of creating an employee such
as "On Call Location X" in my employee table to handle this purpose. I was
also thinking of creating an "unassigned" employee to deal with that
situation.

This is one of the things that I've been flip flopping about. I'm not sure
if I should make my inventory bins and employee assignments the same table.

Phone 1 is with Joe, which gets dropped.
It gets assigned to quarantine/repair
Phone 2 gets assigned to Joe.
Phone 1 is now repaired and is assigned to "unassigned"
-- 
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com


From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg  Fri Sep 25 18:17:51 2020
From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 09:17:51 +1000
Subject: [AccessD] Fwd: FW: table design
In-Reply-To: <CAMhYZWa85_9Tx3cUEbxT22VcjUmaUbx=iAs7X3QZSRtKOCfVyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5F6E7A9F.9454.11B8307E@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>



You can handle that with  a Null employee in  an  employee-phone link table and phone 
status of "in Repair", "in stock" etc.

On 25 Sep 2020 at 11:22, David McAfee wrote:
> 
> Phone 1 is with Joe, which gets dropped.
> It gets assigned to quarantine/repair
> Phone 2 gets assigned to Joe.
> Phone 1 is now repaired and is assigned to "unassigned"