From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 1 15:13:52 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 16:13:52 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption Message-ID: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all partitions) and so here I am. Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the other disk. The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just hung, never finished loading windows. In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. Things never work the way I envision them working. Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Sun Oct 2 07:05:10 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:05:10 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" Book Message-ID: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama From marklbreen at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 04:37:32 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 10:37:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work well. I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. Do you know how / why that is ? thanks Mark On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby wrote: > The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a > whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which > does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt > anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on > another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. > > So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 > gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I > then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing > and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during > the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. > > It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all > partitions) and so here I am. > > Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another > computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the > other disk. > > The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt > encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then > apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just > hung, never finished loading windows. > > In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then > hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, > and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know > what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. > > Things never work the way I envision them working. > > Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to > enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then > off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... > > -- > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Oct 3 05:32:54 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 06:32:54 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. The truth is that the impact depends directly on the horsepower of the processor. On a low end Celeron it would be largish. On a single core AMD or Intel it would be barely noticeable and on anything more powerful, including multi-cores it is negligible. > Do you know how / why that is ? The impact is "fixed" in that it has to run each sector read through decryption. The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to encryption. John W. Colby Colby Consulting On 10/3/2011 5:37 AM, Mark Breen wrote: > Hi John, > > I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work well. > > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by > less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. > > Do you know how / why that is ? > thanks > Mark > > > On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby wrote: > >> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a >> whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which >> does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt >> anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on >> another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. >> >> So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 >> gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I >> then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing >> and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during >> the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. >> >> It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all >> partitions) and so here I am. >> >> Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another >> computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the >> other disk. >> >> The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt >> encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then >> apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just >> hung, never finished loading windows. >> >> In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then >> hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, >> and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know >> what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. >> >> Things never work the way I envision them working. >> >> Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to >> enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then >> off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 14:33:30 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:33:30 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John >The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to encryption. this was what I thought I read, that there was some dedicated hardware that is a tunnel that is used all the time, so it makes no difference whether it is encrypted or not, somehow, it sounded too good to be true. thanks Mark On 3 October 2011 11:32, jwcolby wrote: > > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even > by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. > > The truth is that the impact depends directly on the horsepower of the > processor. On a low end Celeron it would be largish. On a single core AMD > or Intel it would be barely noticeable and on anything more powerful, > including multi-cores it is negligible. > > > > Do you know how / why that is ? > > The impact is "fixed" in that it has to run each sector read through > decryption. The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in > fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to > encryption. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > On 10/3/2011 5:37 AM, Mark Breen wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work >> well. >> >> I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by >> less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. >> >> Do you know how / why that is ? >> thanks >> Mark >> >> >> On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby> >> wrote: >> >> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a >>> whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which >>> does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt >>> anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on >>> another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. >>> >>> So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 >>> gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. >>> I >>> then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole >>> thing >>> and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep >>> during >>> the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. >>> >>> It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all >>> partitions) and so here I am. >>> >>> Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on >>> another >>> computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the >>> other disk. >>> >>> The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt >>> encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and >>> then >>> apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It >>> just >>> hung, never finished loading windows. >>> >>> In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then >>> hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the >>> laptop, >>> and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know >>> what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. >>> >>> Things never work the way I envision them working. >>> >>> Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to >>> enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, >>> then >>> off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadviso**rs.com < >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/****mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> ** >>> **> >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.****com >>> > >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From ab-mi at post3.tele.dk Tue Oct 4 18:50:35 2011 From: ab-mi at post3.tele.dk (Asger Blond) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 01:50:35 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book In-Reply-To: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> References: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> Message-ID: <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> Hi Alan, The condition: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 Is equivalent to: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR (InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0) That's why you get all records where InvoiceDate is greater than '05-01-2008', no matter what the InvoiceTotal or the BalanceDue is. The 89 records which are bothering you (having a BalanceDue equal to 0.00) are included in the result set because they satisfy the condition InvoceDate > '05-01-2008'. Your rewritten where clause has a quite different meaning: WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0. This condition says: all records having a BalanceDue greater than 0 and either an InvoiceDate greater than '05-01-2008' or an InvoiceTotal greater than 500. I agree that the condition as written in the book (which I haven't read) might be confusing. I would prefer the equivalent expression using parenthesis a shown above. Asger -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Alan Lawhon Sendt: 2. oktober 2011 14:05 Til: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Emne: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Tue Oct 4 22:02:07 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:02:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book In-Reply-To: <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> References: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> Message-ID: <000801cc830b$2afbdd90$80f398b0$@net> Asger: I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with that first (confusing) WHERE clause (the one without parentheses) before it became obvious that the first condition prior to the "OR" operator, (i.e. WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008'), was being evaluated first and records meeting that condition were included in the result set. What threw me (in both of the WHERE clauses) was the BalanceDue calculation following the "AND" logical operator. My understanding of the AND logical operator is that both expressions (on both sides of the AND operator) must evaluate to "True" in order for a record to be included in the result set. In the first WHERE clause, since the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "False" for 89 of the records returned, it didn't make sense to me that those 89 records should be in the result set. Using the parenthesis in the second WHERE clause made much better sense since those 89 records - where the BalanceDue calculation was not > 0 - were excluded from the result set. I suppose the point the Murach book was trying to get across is that you need to be really careful about how you use logical operators in WHERE clauses. Thanks for taking a look at this. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Asger Blond Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:51 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book Hi Alan, The condition: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 Is equivalent to: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR (InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0) That's why you get all records where InvoiceDate is greater than '05-01-2008', no matter what the InvoiceTotal or the BalanceDue is. The 89 records which are bothering you (having a BalanceDue equal to 0.00) are included in the result set because they satisfy the condition InvoceDate > '05-01-2008'. Your rewritten where clause has a quite different meaning: WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0. This condition says: all records having a BalanceDue greater than 0 and either an InvoiceDate greater than '05-01-2008' or an InvoiceTotal greater than 500. I agree that the condition as written in the book (which I haven't read) might be confusing. I would prefer the equivalent expression using parenthesis a shown above. Asger -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Alan Lawhon Sendt: 2. oktober 2011 14:05 Til: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Emne: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:13:04 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:13:04 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Hello All, I have some sad news to share with you all. Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists as he spoke of it often. A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to everyone as soon as he shares any further information. My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. John Bartow, President Database Advisors, Inc. Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:15:51 2011 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:15:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: My God, John! That is terrible news! Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:19:07 2011 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:19:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: John, Do you have contact info for his next of kin? Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share > this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists > as > he spoke of it often. > > > > A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk > and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The > paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was > pronounced dead upon arrival. > > > > Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to > everyone > as soon as he shares any further information. > > > > My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. > > > > John Bartow, President > > Database Advisors, Inc. > > Office: 920-582-7574 > > Mobile: 920-410-7574 > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:37:50 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> Ken will be keeping me apprised of any further info including next of kin. I'll pass along anything I receive. Drew's daughter is only 12 so I'm sure we need to be careful on how we communicate on this. -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve Erbach Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 2:19 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka John, Do you have contact info for his next of kin? Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to > share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the > DBA lists as he spoke of it often. > > > > A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his > desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no > pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital > where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. > > > > Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to > everyone as soon as he shares any further information. > > > > My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. > > > > John Bartow, President > > Database Advisors, Inc. > > Office: 920-582-7574 > > Mobile: 920-410-7574 > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:05:41 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:05:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701cc8391$c6c445b0$544cd110$@winhaven.net> Hello All, I have some sad news to share with you all. Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists as he spoke of it often. A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to everyone as soon as he shares any further information. My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. John Bartow, President Database Advisors, Inc. Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From fuller.artful at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 15:16:36 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:16:36 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: This makes me a very sad person indeed. I keep thinking of all my misdeeds and that somehow I manage to survive, when other people who have done thousands of good things and few bad, pass before me. Drew contributed a vast amount to this community. I never met him in person but have exchanged hundreds of emails with him, and came to regard him as a friend. I am kind of speechless receiving this information. He gave his best to us all. A. On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 5 15:28:03 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:28:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <4E8CBDD3.900@colbyconsulting.com> Man that will take your breath away. Drew was essentially one of our founding members. DatabaseAdvisors needs to formally express out condolences to the family. This is a sad day. John W. Colby Colby Consulting On 10/5/2011 3:37 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Ken will be keeping me apprised of any further info including next of kin. > I'll pass along anything I receive. > > Drew's daughter is only 12 so I'm sure we need to be careful on how we > communicate on this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve > Erbach > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 2:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka > > John, > > Do you have contact info for his next of kin? > > Regards, > > Steve Erbach > Neenah, WI > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> I have some sad news to share with you all. >> >> >> >> Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. >> >> >> >> His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to >> share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the >> DBA lists as he spoke of it often. >> >> >> >> A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his >> desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no >> pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital >> where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. >> >> >> >> Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to >> everyone as soon as he shares any further information. >> >> >> >> My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. >> >> >> >> John Bartow, President >> >> Database Advisors, Inc. >> >> Office: 920-582-7574 >> >> Mobile: 920-410-7574 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Regards, > > Steve Erbach > Neenah, WI > http://www.NeenahPolitics.com > http://www.TheTownCrank.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 18:11:35 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:11:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: Drew Wutka's Services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b201cc83b4$214d2e80$63e78b80$@winhaven.net> Forwarded From Ken: I spoke with Drew's mom and told her the many wonderful and kind things you guys have written about Drew.? I told her I could forward them and she was excited, so I did in fact send them to her.? ? If you have anything you can share I am certain she and Hannah, and his Dad would love it.? Her email address is: nwutka at sbcglobal.com The following is the information relating to his services: Viewing at Turrentine Jackson Morrow I-75 and ridgeview Thursday 6-7 972-562-2601 Preston Meadow Lutheran 10:30 Friday after back to church for light lunch 972-618-2233 Please feel free to contact me and share this information as you deem necessary. Kenneth Van Huss ? VanGard Systems Office (214) 801-4357 ext 335 Fax??? (214) 299-8597 Cell??? (214) 243-5659 kvanhuss at airrsystem.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 18:21:04 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:21:04 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Drew Wutka memorial ideas Message-ID: <01b301cc83b5$741defe0$5c59cfa0$@winhaven.net> Hello Listers, While I agree that we should do something as a group, I also encourage you all to act on your own accord. As Ken mentioned in his email that I just sent out, his family was very happy to hear of our fond thoughts and reminiscing's of Drew. I encourage you to send emails, Facebooks postings, cards, etc. I would like to see what everyone would like to do for Drew. A couple of ideas were to send something to his service from DBA, collect for a DBA memorial fund to aid his daughter Hannah. Any other ideas? John Bartow WinHaven Consulting PO Box 130 Winneconne, WI 54986 Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From john at winhaven.net Thu Oct 6 21:08:25 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:08:25 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Drew Wutka's Obituary page Message-ID: <01d401cc8495$ffb642b0$ff22c810$@winhaven.net> http://www.turrentinejacksonmorrow.com/detail.php?id=6177 From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Thu Oct 13 06:35:06 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:35:06 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar Message-ID: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) followed by my question. NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are all of data type (money, not null) USE AP GO DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, -- CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] -- FROM Invoices WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC Here are two records from the result set: Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN Balance Due 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 19,351.18 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 10,976.06 OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due fields both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a calculated alias field value.) This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things like this. Alan C. Lawhon From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 13 08:05:34 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:05:34 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] See you in space! Message-ID: <4E96E21E.3080100@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Red+Gate+Software/76406/ -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 13 10:30:52 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:30:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser ver/ This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) Jim From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:58:09 2011 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:58:09 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: It is because you are converting them to varchars. If you leave them as money, you should be fine. If you want to use the formatting that STR provides, convert it to money first, like I did in Test2: DECLARE @InvoiceNumber AS int SET @InvoiceNumber = 12345 DECLARE @InvoiceTotal AS MONEY SET @InvoiceTotal = 1999.99 DECLARE @PaymentTotal AS MONEY SET @PaymentTotal = 20 DECLARE @CreditTotal AS MONEY SET @CreditTotal = 5 DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT @InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, @InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(@InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2),1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, CONVERT(varchar, CAST(STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2) AS MONEY) ,1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN2, CAST(@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)AS MONEY) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST3, (@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST4, -- CONVERT(varchar, (@InvoiceTotal - (@PaymentTotal + @CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > From garykjos at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:02:16 2011 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:02:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: Preface this answer by saying I don't do a lot of SQL Server queries. In your convert statements you are converting the output of the calculated fields to varchar. Varchar wouldn't seem to be a format that includes formatting like dollar signs and commas or a specific number of decimals like something like MONEY type would. If you replaced the varchar with money would you get the result you are looking for? On the two fields in question you also have a STR in there which would convert the money type fields to a string before the addition. That would then remove the money type formatting as well wouldn't it? If you remove that str function you would also get the similar format result as on the balance due. Why do you need the convert and the str functions in there at all for those fields? They would appear to be numeric values that you are converting to some kind of non-numeric format and then doing the mathematic functions on them. GK On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: ?Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- ? ? The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > ? ? ?Number ? ? ?InvoiceTotal ? ? ?TEN_PERCENT ? ? INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 ? ?P-0608 ? ? ? ? 20,551.18 ? ? ? ? ? ? 2055.12 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 ? ?0-2436 ? ? ? ? 10,976.06 ? ? ? ? ? ? 1097.61 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. ?In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due fields > both display with the comma? ?(In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:10:57 2011 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:10:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: I wouldn't worry about the formatting. Let the front end (access, VB, what ever) do it. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Gary Kjos wrote: > Preface this answer by saying I don't do a lot of SQL Server queries. > > In your convert statements you are converting the output of the > calculated fields to varchar. Varchar wouldn't seem to be a format > that includes formatting like dollar signs and commas or a specific > number of decimals like something like MONEY type would. If you > replaced the varchar with money would you get the result you are > looking for? On the two fields in question you also have a STR in > there which would convert the money type fields to a string before the > addition. That would then remove the money type formatting as well > wouldn't it? If you remove that str function you would also get the > similar format result as on the balance due. > > Why do you need the convert and the str functions in there at all for > those fields? They would appear to be numeric values that you are > converting to some kind of non-numeric format and then doing the > mathematic functions on them. > > GK > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > > followed by my question. > > > > > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" > are > > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > > > > > USE AP > > > > GO > > > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > > > -- > > > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > > > -- > > > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS > TEN_PERCENT, > > > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, > 2), > > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > > > -- > > > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) > AS > > [Balance Due] > > > > -- > > > > FROM Invoices > > > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > > Balance Due > > > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 > 22606.30 > > 19,351.18 > > > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 > 12073.67 > > 10,976.06 > > > > > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without > the > > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument > in > > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > > calculated alias field value.) > > > > > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > > like this. > > > > > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gary Kjos > garykjos at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Fri Oct 14 02:58:21 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 02:58:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: <000901cc8a47$0aba89d0$202f9d70$@net> David, Gary: Success!! (Thanks for your help.) Using the CAST function in conjunction with the STR and CONVERT functions to define the "TEN_PERCENT" and "INVOICE_PLUS_TEN" calculated fields did the trick. It's kind of interesting how you can get a syntax error if you use "AS" when SQL Server is looking for "As" instead. (SQL Server very picky ...) Applying CAST and STR to the other three [money] fields wasn't necessary as those three fields are base table fields already defined as data type (money, not null). Application of a straight CONVERT function to those fields worked. I agree with whichever one of you who noted that output formatting should be handled by the front end client. I shouldn't have gotten so wrapped around the axle on this, but this was an exercise problem from the chapter on basic SELECT statement syntax. (I'm now proceeding on to the chapter dealing with multi-table joins.) I'm still in the early chapters of the training book I'm working through. After a five year "break" from daily programming, my recollection of some of these topics is rusty. Later chapters of the book get into very involved and very intricate discussions of all the SQL Server data types and how to handle common problems that arise from the interaction of incompatible data types. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar It is because you are converting them to varchars. If you leave them as money, you should be fine. If you want to use the formatting that STR provides, convert it to money first, like I did in Test2: DECLARE @InvoiceNumber AS int SET @InvoiceNumber = 12345 DECLARE @InvoiceTotal AS MONEY SET @InvoiceTotal = 1999.99 DECLARE @PaymentTotal AS MONEY SET @PaymentTotal = 20 DECLARE @CreditTotal AS MONEY SET @CreditTotal = 5 DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT @InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, @InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(@InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2),1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, CONVERT(varchar, CAST(STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2) AS MONEY) ,1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN2, CAST(@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)AS MONEY) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST3, (@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST4, -- CONVERT(varchar, (@InvoiceTotal - (@PaymentTotal + @CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 14 06:31:54 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:31:54 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving > into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will > be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > ver/ > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca Fri Oct 14 16:27:42 2011 From: jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:27:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Not at all John...who said anything about the web? Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your equipment every so many months. Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving > into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will > be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > ver/ > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 14 17:37:33 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:37:33 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) I see NO NOSQL in my future. I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/14/2011 5:27 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Not at all John...who said anything about the web? > > Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to > take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe > you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your > equipment every so many months. > > Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > > LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially > moving >> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, > will >> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >> >> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser >> ver/ >> >> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> Jim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fuller.artful at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:50:32 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:50:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to work. I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby wrote: > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > > LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >> moving >> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >> will >> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** >> integration_sql_ser >> ver/ >> >> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> Jim >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sat Oct 15 01:47:28 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:47:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) - Hans On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) > > I see NO NOSQL in my future. > > I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. > > It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/14/2011 5:27 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Not at all John...who said anything about the web? >> >> Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to >> take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe >> you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your >> equipment every so many months. >> >> Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) >> >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead >> >> > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >> moving >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >> will >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >>> >>> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser >>> ver/ >>> >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >>> Jim >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sat Oct 15 01:58:22 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:58:22 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> Hey Arthur, Have you considered maybe going down a more conventional route, instead of RoR. RoR is pretty awesome, but it takes a lot of investment upfront to understand all the abstract concepts and all the scaffolding, which folks who have been there since early Ruby days take for granted, since they've seen it evolve. I might suggest instead something like Python + Django or, if you haven't got a deep-seated, irrational hatred of PHP, something like Symfony (my personal favourite) or Zend Framework. All of these are very fine web frameworks, which do a good job of taking out all the tediousness of web development. But, no matter what, you will still need to learn few basic abstract concepts (and I'm not making any assumptions of your knowledge or capability) like MVC and basic patterns. If its not something you are already familiar with, its something you will find invaluable for any future software project you take on, regardless of language or goal. RoR is a lot of this, just plus a ton of scaffolding that takes time before its intuitive (plus - python and php are much more familiar languages; similar to C compared to Ruby), which is why perhaps it has a bit of a learning curve. - Hans On 2011-10-14, at 5:50 PM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of > this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to work. > I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >>> moving >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >>> will >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >>> >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** >>> integration_sql_ser >>> ver/ >>> >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >>> Jim >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 02:42:52 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:42:52 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> Message-ID: Hello Arthur, I hope I do not offend you with my suggestion. If you, like me, two or three years ago, have never really built a website, then take a look at google apps. It allows you to build websites with no programming. They are fun to do, easy to manage, it is all online and for companies with less than ten emails addresses, it is free. It is not RnR, but you would build 5 - 10 sites a month easily. And people love playing with it themselves, so you can hand it over and forget about it. Just a contrast with the heavy work that we sometimes have to struggle with, Mark On 15 October 2011 07:58, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hey Arthur, > > Have you considered maybe going down a more conventional route, instead of > RoR. RoR is pretty awesome, but it takes a lot of investment upfront to > understand all the abstract concepts and all the scaffolding, which folks > who have been there since early Ruby days take for granted, since they've > seen it evolve. > > I might suggest instead something like Python + Django or, if you haven't > got a deep-seated, irrational hatred of PHP, something like Symfony (my > personal favourite) or Zend Framework. All of these are very fine web > frameworks, which do a good job of taking out all the tediousness of web > development. But, no matter what, you will still need to learn few basic > abstract concepts (and I'm not making any assumptions of your knowledge or > capability) like MVC and basic patterns. If its not something you are > already familiar with, its something you will find invaluable for any future > software project you take on, regardless of language or goal. > > RoR is a lot of this, just plus a ton of scaffolding that takes time before > its intuitive (plus - python and php are much more familiar languages; > similar to C compared to Ruby), which is why perhaps it has a bit of a > learning curve. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-14, at 5:50 PM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > > > Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of > > this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to > work. > > I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby >wrote: > > > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > >> > >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> Colby Consulting > >> > >> Reality is what refuses to go away > >> when you do not believe in it > >> > >> > >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> > >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially > >>> moving > >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, > >>> will > >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > >>> > >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** > >>> integration_sql_ser< > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > > > >>> ver/ > >>> > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > >>> Jim > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com < > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com> > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver< > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver> > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > >>> > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com < > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com> > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver< > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver> > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fuller.artful at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 07:16:02 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:16:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: I have experimented with Python and so far I love it. I know a thing or two about PHP so I think I'll give your recommendation a try. A. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 08:30:06 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Hans, >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. How does this sound like NoSQL? Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. IOW, LMTFA!!! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > - Hans > > > > On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >> >> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >> >> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >> >> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >> >> John W. Colby From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 08:40:29 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:40:29 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] This just in: NoSQL In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E998D4D.1020104@colbyconsulting.com> Please read this *carefully*!!! Notice that every other paragraph emphasizes "unstructured data". http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9220737/Don_t_get_carried_away_by_Hadoop_s_gee_whiz_factor John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > - Hans From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 22:52:01 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:52:01 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] For those in need Message-ID: <4E9A54E1.5020609@colbyconsulting.com> Who think my server is puny... http://www.nccs.gov/computing-resources/jaguar/access/ You too can do super computing. -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 23:08:03 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 00:08:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port my app? ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 23:20:26 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 00:20:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> Hmmm... from http://www.cray.com/Assets/PDF/products/xt/IDCLink.pdf Power and cooling costs have become one of the top concerns of HPC buyers, and IBM's "Roadrunner" petaflop system is very energy efficient. It consumes about 2.5 megawatts, versus about 7 megawatts for "Jaguar." One reason for the large difference in power, as HPC luminary Jack Dongarra notes, is that the Jaguar computer has more memory than Roadrunner, which adds to Jaguar's power consumption. I sure hope I really need this NoSQL stuff. My power bill is about to go up I think. :) But hey, maybe I can start leasing super computer time eh? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 12:08 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html > > Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant > to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port > my app? > > ;) > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > >> > >> > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid > >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > >> > >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can > >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > >> > >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:08:16 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:08:16 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> Hi John, If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 9:20 PM, jwcolby wrote: > Hmmm... from > > http://www.cray.com/Assets/PDF/products/xt/IDCLink.pdf > > Power and cooling costs have become one of the top concerns of HPC buyers, and IBM's "Roadrunner" > petaflop system is very energy efficient. It consumes about 2.5 megawatts, versus about 7 megawatts for "Jaguar." One reason for the large difference in power, as HPC luminary Jack Dongarra notes, is that the Jaguar computer has more memory than Roadrunner, which adds to Jaguar's power consumption. > > I sure hope I really need this NoSQL stuff. My power bill is about to go up I think. > > :) > > But hey, maybe I can start leasing super computer time eh? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 12:08 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html >> >> Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant >> to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port >> my app? >> >> ;) >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid >> >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can >> >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> >> >> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:34:50 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:34:50 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know what your business requirements are better than anyone else. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. > > To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. > > >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! > > I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. > > I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. > > As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. > > How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? > > I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. > > Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. > > How does this sound like NoSQL? > > Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. > > I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. > > I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. > > *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* > > I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. > > And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. > > IOW, LMTFA!!! > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans >> >> >> >> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >>> >>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>> >>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >>> >>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >>> >>> John W. Colby > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:51:54 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:51:54 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <0F3F407D-A951-4840-AA4B-A32D4FB0700A@phulse.com> Thats awesome, Arthur. I think, in that case, have a good look at Django. Much can be said about the good and bad about PHP (and I will agree on many things), but Python is inherently a better, more future-proof language by any objective measure. The only advantage PHP has is that it is far easier to deploy. Saying that, PHP is fairly capable for most things and if you want a good solid framework, Symfony is a really nice framework. :) If you have any questions about anything web app / web development related in general, feel free to ask and I hope I will be able to give you any help. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 5:16 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I have experimented with Python and so far I love it. I know a thing or two > about PHP so I think I'll give your recommendation a try. > > A. > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 07:29:45 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:29:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E9ACE39.1010707@colbyconsulting.com> I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. > > - Hans From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Sun Oct 16 13:41:27 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:41:27 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Had to read up on this as never heard of it. http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: jwcolby Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. > > - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 14:25:32 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:25:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as > SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you > are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 14:36:21 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:36:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Oct 16 15:57:26 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:57:26 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi Hans: Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These figures would be: 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience with. 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian Andersen Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead Hi John, I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know what your business requirements are better than anyone else. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. > > To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. > > >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! > > I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. > > I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. > > As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. > > How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? > > I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. > > Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. > > How does this sound like NoSQL? > > Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. > > I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. > > I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. > > *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* > > I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. > > And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. > > IOW, LMTFA!!! > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans >> >> >> >> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >>> >>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>> >>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >>> >>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >>> >>> John W. Colby > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 16:41:01 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:41:01 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Oct 16 17:36:31 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:36:31 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> Absolutely excellent articles Michael...great research and a great read. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 2:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 18:04:34 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:04:34 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <000b01cc8c57$f93c3e20$ebb4ba60$@mattysconsulting.com> Thanks, Jim We are currently working on MS Dynamics CRM which will benefit greatly from these new concepts in SQL 2012. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:37 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Absolutely excellent articles Michael...great research and a great read. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 2:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 19:31:15 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:31:15 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: That article starts by making valid observations and ends reading like a sensationalist PR piece promoting a specific product. I would have expected more from a publisher which is "serving chief information officers and other IT leaders". - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 11:41 AM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as > SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you > are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 20:38:20 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:38:20 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4E9B870C.2010105@colbyconsulting.com> Thank you for saying that. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 8:31 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > That article starts by making valid observations and ends reading like a sensationalist PR piece promoting a specific product. I would have expected more from a publisher which is "serving chief information officers and other IT leaders". > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-16, at 11:41 AM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Had to read up on this as never heard of it. >> http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS >> >> I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. >> >> Martin >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: jwcolby >> Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" >> >> I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as >> SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. >> >> Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you >> are solving with NOSQL. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >>> >>> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 20:40:05 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:40:05 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9B8775.1090107@colbyconsulting.com> 6. What kind of data is being modeled / stored / analyzed. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 4:57 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These > figures would be: > > 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience > with. > 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? > 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. > 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. > 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. > > Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the > controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > Hi John, > > I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know > what your business requirements are better than anyone else. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >>>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even > thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me > *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or > manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. >> >> To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search > documents*. >> >>>> It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it > nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is > nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't > apply to me! >> >> I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he > said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a > solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand > relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is > large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or > documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. >> >> I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, > each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / > address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the > people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with > first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other > fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on > and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have > indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes > (fields) in the attribute table. >> >> As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month > and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That > software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same > fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is > the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move > information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses > Foxpro to process it. >> >> How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? >> >> I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. > Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 > attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I > do. >> >> Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am > reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny > attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those > attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to > search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that > stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other > tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field > being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email > address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my > data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" > clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 > table pairs to select records based on commonality. >> >> How does this sound like NoSQL? >> >> Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more > time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not > blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this > technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who > design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people > say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL > is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an > entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire > new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out > across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the > results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. >> >> I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of > documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. >> >> I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a > technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and > search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire > database. >> >> *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* >> >> I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. > What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP > process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive > SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am > *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL > language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. >> >> And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there > is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable > technology applies to me. >> >> IOW, LMTFA!!! >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >>> >>> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, > cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't > apply to you. :) >>> >>> - Hans >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >>> >>>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at > people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and > will quit haranguing me? ;) >>>> >>>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>>> >>>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. > Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long > processes are under a minute or two. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would > instantly quit this nonsense. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 22:14:05 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:14:05 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure if this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always practical unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/ore system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 1:57 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These > figures would be: > > 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience > with. > 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? > 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. > 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. > 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. > > Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the > controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > Hi John, > > I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know > what your business requirements are better than anyone else. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >>>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even > thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me > *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or > manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. >> >> To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search > documents*. >> >>>> It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it > nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is > nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't > apply to me! >> >> I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he > said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a > solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand > relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is > large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or > documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. >> >> I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, > each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / > address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the > people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with > first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other > fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on > and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have > indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes > (fields) in the attribute table. >> >> As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month > and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That > software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same > fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is > the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move > information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses > Foxpro to process it. >> >> How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? >> >> I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. > Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 > attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I > do. >> >> Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am > reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny > attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those > attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to > search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that > stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other > tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field > being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email > address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my > data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" > clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 > table pairs to select records based on commonality. >> >> How does this sound like NoSQL? >> >> Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more > time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not > blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this > technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who > design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people > say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL > is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an > entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire > new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out > across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the > results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. >> >> I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of > documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. >> >> I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a > technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and > search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire > database. >> >> *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* >> >> I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. > What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP > process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive > SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am > *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL > language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. >> >> And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there > is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable > technology applies to me. >> >> IOW, LMTFA!!! >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >>> >>> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, > cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't > apply to you. :) >>> >>> - Hans >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >>> >>>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at > people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and > will quit haranguing me? ;) >>>> >>>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>>> >>>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. > Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long > processes are under a minute or two. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would > instantly quit this nonsense. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 22:40:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:40:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Hans, Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. > > Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. > > What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. > > We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure i! > f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. > > We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always prac ti! > cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. > > However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/o re! > system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. > > Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. > > What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... > > Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. > > > - Hans From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 23:03:05 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:03:05 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Ya, I understand what you mean. Hadoop could very well be the tool to suit that problem. Sometimes its hard to these things put into words, given how much has been changing over the last decade - the huge amount of growth in online usage, the pervasiveness of the internet, the types of applications we now use and the scale of data that comes with it. It even took me a while to get my head around the whole concept of cloud computing at first and a lot of that has to do with that these concepts are still changing and maturing, so I hope that I made things a bit clearer, although, I was just looking up online for some information that could perhaps explain it a bit better and I think this guy (Mike Olsen) does a better job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xnYBVqLws Worth a watch, even if just for the first half of the video. One thing is for sure, though. We are currently in a state of a massive fundamental change in computing from the hardware in the box on your desk being the computer to now the network being a fundamental part of your computer and that has caused a rethink of traditional concepts and assumptions. - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 8:40 PM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. > > Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. >> >> Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. >> >> What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. >> >> We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure > i! >> f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. >> >> We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always prac > ti! >> cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. >> >> However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/o > re! >> system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. >> >> Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. >> >> What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... >> >> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. >> >> >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 23:50:47 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:50:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9BB427.8060801@colbyconsulting.com> Great video! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/17/2011 12:03 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > Ya, I understand what you mean. Hadoop could very well be the tool to suit that problem. > > Sometimes its hard to these things put into words, given how much has been changing over the last decade - the huge amount of growth in online usage, the pervasiveness of the internet, the types of applications we now use and the scale of data that comes with it. It even took me a while to get my head around the whole concept of cloud computing at first and a lot of that has to do with that these concepts are still changing and maturing, so I hope that I made things a bit clearer, although, I was just looking up online for some information that could perhaps explain it a bit better and I think this guy (Mike Olsen) does a better job. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xnYBVqLws > > Worth a watch, even if just for the first half of the video. > > One thing is for sure, though. We are currently in a state of a massive fundamental change in computing from the hardware in the box on your desk being the computer to now the network being a fundamental part of your computer and that has caused a rethink of traditional concepts and assumptions. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-16, at 8:40 PM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >> Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. >> >> Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. >>> >>> Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. >>> >>> What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. >>> >>> We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not su re >> i! >>> f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. >>> >>> We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always pr ac >> ti! >>> cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. >>> >>> However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and /o >> re! >>> system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. >>> >>> Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. >>> >>> What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... >>> >>> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. >>> >>> >>> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Oct 17 05:12:58 2011 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:12:58 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead Message-ID: Hi Hans Yes, it certainly did. My common sense have tried to cut through the vast amount of hype but with limited success. This helped my a lot. Thanks. /gustav >>> hans.andersen at phulse.com 17-10-2011 05:14 >>> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Tue Oct 18 12:49:59 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:49:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Oct 18 13:27:18 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:27:18 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> References: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> Message-ID: Hi Alan: It is hard to say Alan as there has recently been a great surge in the computer world in the last few months. Though you can not become an expert in any of the fields listed below, in the time span alloted, it would be wise to at least have a passing understanding of these trends: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/look-out-the-10-rising-tech-trends-of -2012/9470?tag=nl.e101 You should play to your strengths; a depth of knowledge, expreience, good work ethics and communication skills (this is a talent you already have; an excellent speaking voice...and that is a definite plus....training, sales, presentations etc.) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 14:00:15 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:00:15 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Big market for SharePoint Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Jim Lawrence Sent: 18/10/2011 19:28 To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Hi Alan: It is hard to say Alan as there has recently been a great surge in the computer world in the last few months. Though you can not become an expert in any of the fields listed below, in the time span alloted, it would be wise to at least have a passing understanding of these trends: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/look-out-the-10-rising-tech-trends-of -2012/9470?tag=nl.e101 You should play to your strengths; a depth of knowledge, expreience, good work ethics and communication skills (this is a talent you already have; an excellent speaking voice...and that is a definite plus....training, sales, presentations etc.) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 14:49:28 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:49:28 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 15:49:02 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:49:02 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE186@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 16:10:53 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:10:53 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE188@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc Oh and it all runs on SQL server. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Martin Reid Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca Tue Oct 18 16:30:12 2011 From: jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:30:12 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> References: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> Message-ID: <7566322E37B04541B842DF2FC0FF18E6@creativesystemdesigns.com> I do not know whether this pertains to you but just saw this in the mail bin: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/retirement-planning/article/5-hot-jobs-for-retire es-health-care/6315615/ Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Oct 19 03:04:25 2011 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:04:25 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) Message-ID: Hi Martin Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. It must be out there somewhere, but where? /gustav >>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10 >>> http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc Oh and it all runs on SQL server. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Martin Reid Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 19 06:07:53 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:07:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9EAF89.4030005@colbyconsulting.com> Boy isn't that true. After all this time I have no idea why I would use Sharepoint other than because Microsoft wants me too. In general I don't respond well to reasons like "Microsoft wants me to". John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/19/2011 4:04 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Martin > > Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. > But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". > > I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". > > The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. > It must be out there somewhere, but where? > > /gustav > > >>>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10>>> > http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 > > Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc > > Oh and it all runs on SQL server. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Martin Reid > Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Arthur Fuller > Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn > this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are > just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do > myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Big market for SharePoint >> >> Martin > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DBCfour at aol.com Wed Oct 19 06:23:26 2011 From: DBCfour at aol.com (DBCfour at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) Message-ID: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're using it. _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) In a message dated 10/19/2011 7:08:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com writes: Boy isn't that true. After all this time I have no idea why I would use Sharepoint other than because Microsoft wants me too. In general I don't respond well to reasons like "Microsoft wants me to". John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/19/2011 4:04 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Martin > > Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. > But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". > > I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". > > The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. > It must be out there somewhere, but where? > > /gustav > > >>>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10>>> > http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 > > Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc > > Oh and it all runs on SQL server. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Martin Reid > Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Arthur Fuller > Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn > this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are > just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do > myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Big market for SharePoint >> >> Martin > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ssharkins at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 06:53:49 2011 From: ssharkins at gmail.com (Susan Harkins) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:53:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. Susan H. > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're > using it. > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 19 07:01:40 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:01:40 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go away. Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jm.hwsn at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:52:16 2011 From: jm.hwsn at gmail.com (jm.hwsn) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:52:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> Message-ID: <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> In another life... before I landed a contract for 100% Access 2007 work, I worked extensively in SharePoint. I've seen it used primarily for document storage. Similar to a shared network drive, the difference is that anyone that has access to the site can use the documents. It does not matter where the user is located. I've seen it used as a data repository for an Access database. Each user had a local copy of the FE and regardless of location (next room or across the country) the Access FE tapped into the repository with any glitches. In this case the primary user was down the hall, however, the client was two states away. Both could access the data and modify it at the same time without issues. The company I worked for used it primarily Contract and / or proposal management. In one case there was 84 sub-contractors for one contract. These companies were all over the U.S. From Alaska and Hawaii to Washington D.C. During the proposal stage each sub-contractor could modify their part of the proposal and review changes made by the others and/or make comments on the changes. After the contract was in place, the site was used to manage the sub-contractors and ensure each company was able to get work. Invoices, etc. was passed from sub-contractor to prime without problems. Each sub-contractor had access to a site designated for them and to read-only to the main site. They could not "see" the sites for the other companies. Granted it was expensive because of the CALs required. I think it is a good tool, but it can get expensive. Once the site is up and configured, it's easy to maintain. It's all run in SQL Server. Ideally, it should be run on at a minimum of two servers. Web-server and data server. >From my foggy memory of a few years ago. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan Harkins Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:54 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. Susan H. > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're > using it. > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 19 15:23:35 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:23:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com>, <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins>, <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E9F31C7.14099.8AADF73@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Sounds like Sharepoint is an enterrpise oriented mix of Facebook and DrpoBox? -- Stuart On 19 Oct 2011 at 8:52, jm.hwsn wrote: > In another life... before I landed a contract for 100% Access 2007 > work, I worked extensively in SharePoint. > > I've seen it used primarily for document storage. Similar to a shared > network drive, the difference is that anyone that has access to the > site can use the documents. It does not matter where the user is > located. > > I've seen it used as a data repository for an Access database. Each > user had a local copy of the FE and regardless of location (next room > or across the country) the Access FE tapped into the repository with > any glitches. In this case the primary user was down the hall, > however, the client was two states away. Both could access the data > and modify it at the same time without issues. > > The company I worked for used it primarily Contract and / or proposal > management. In one case there was 84 sub-contractors for one > contract. These companies were all over the U.S. From Alaska and > Hawaii to Washington D.C. During the proposal stage each > sub-contractor could modify their part of the proposal and review > changes made by the others and/or make comments on the changes. After > the contract was in place, the site was used to manage the > sub-contractors and ensure each company was able to get work. > Invoices, etc. was passed from sub-contractor to prime without > problems. Each sub-contractor had access to a site designated for them > and to read-only to the main site. They could not "see" the sites for > the other companies. Granted it was expensive because of the CALs > required. > > I think it is a good tool, but it can get expensive. Once the site is > up and configured, it's easy to maintain. It's all run in SQL Server. > Ideally, it should be run on at a minimum of two servers. Web-server > and data server. > > From my foggy memory of a few years ago. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan > Harkins Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:54 AM To: Discussion > concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: > Off The Beaten Path) > > I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other > major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own > though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. > > Susan H. > > > > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how > > they're using it. > > > > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effecti > vely/_ > > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effecti > vely/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Oct 20 02:33:29 2011 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:33:29 +1100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Hi JC, I've done it but I don't do it often. IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and they have it set up in no time. YMMV. You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in tools (Plesk). Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need to drop and recreate the login. Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use Windows Authentication. Good luck Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM To: Sqlserver-Dba Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go away. Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 09:44:43 2011 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:44:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Message-ID: John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 Doug On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison < michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > Hi JC, > > I've done it but I don't do it often. > IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. > We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and > they have it set up in no time. YMMV. > You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal > and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in > tools (Plesk). > Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. > Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. > Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them > to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. > Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need > to drop and recreate the login. > Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use > Windows Authentication. > > Good luck > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM > To: Sqlserver-Dba > Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server > databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to > do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an > email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on > "how to" > but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? > > I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. > this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my > server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping > that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs > to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go > away. > > Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? > > -- > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 10:40:56 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:40:56 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA04108.3010807@colbyconsulting.com> I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > > http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > > Doug > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> Hi JC, >> >> I've done it but I don't do it often. >> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >> tools (Plesk). >> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >> to drop and recreate the login. >> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >> Windows Authentication. >> >> Good luck >> >> Michael M >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >> To: Sqlserver-Dba >> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >> "how to" >> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >> >> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >> away. >> >> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Thu Oct 20 11:31:21 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:31:21 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> John Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: jwcolby Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > > http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > > Doug > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> Hi JC, >> >> I've done it but I don't do it often. >> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >> tools (Plesk). >> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >> to drop and recreate the login. >> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >> Windows Authentication. >> >> Good luck >> >> Michael M >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >> To: Sqlserver-Dba >> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >> "how to" >> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >> >> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >> away. >> >> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 11:48:19 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? I do many different things. ;) This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost tiny databases used as the data store for access front ends for my non-profit clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the web where it is 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > John > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not > examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one > MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only > up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost > a lot more money. > > I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical > problems of using them for the future. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: >> >> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 >> >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< >> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: >> >>> Hi JC, >>> >>> I've done it but I don't do it often. >>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >>> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >>> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >>> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >>> tools (Plesk). >>> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >>> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >>> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >>> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >>> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >>> to drop and recreate the login. >>> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >>> Windows Authentication. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >>> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >>> To: Sqlserver-Dba >>> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >>> >>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >>> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >>> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >>> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >>> "how to" >>> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >>> >>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >>> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >>> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >>> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >>> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >>> away. >>> >>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Thu Oct 20 12:36:36 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:36:36 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SQL Server Express and "AdventureWorks2008R2" Sample Database Message-ID: <000c01cc8f4e$d0df06c0$729d1440$@net> The book I am using for training and study, (i.e. "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers"), recommended that I download and install the "SQL Server Express with Tools" edition of SQL Server (which I did) along with a sample database (downloaded from the Murach web site) which accompanies the examples in their book. I have been working and training with the Murach sample database (primarily through the SQL Server Management Studio) with few (if any) problems. (So far, so good.) The Murach book occasionally directs me to SQL Server Books Online (BOL) for additional information on various topics. In reviewing and accessing Books Online, I notice frequent references (and code samples) taken from a Microsoft "codeplex" web page that references an "AdventureWorks2008R2" sample database. http://msftdbprodsamples.codeplex.com/releases/view/55926 Since BOL tends to go into greater detail on some of the topics I am studying, I thought it might be a good idea to download this "AdventureWorks2008R2" sample database on my x86 (Windows XP SP3) box. The Microsoft codeplex web site indicates that, for users running the SQL Server Express edition, the AdventureWorks2008R2 sample database needs to run under the Express (with "Advanced Services") edition of SQL Server. According to the "Installation Prerequisites for the SQL Server 2008 and 2008R2 Sample Databases" web page: http://tinyurl.com/452bydb In order to be able to successfully install the AdventureWorks2008 or AdventureWorks2008R2 (OLTP) database the following additional requirements must be met: * At least SQL Server Express with Advanced Services must be installed. Ordinary SQL Server Express will not work. You can download SQL Server 2008 Express with Advanced Services from the Microsoft Download Center . * FILESTREAM must be enabled and the SQL Full-text Filter Daemon Launcher service must be running. See below for how to configure these features. * This is the download page for downloading the "Advanced Services" edition of SQL Server Express. http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en &id=1842 Can I install (and run) two different versions (instances?) of SQL Server Express on the same physical machine without causing all kinds of conflicts and problems between the two different versions? (Will the two different versions "play good" together?) TIA. Alan C. Lawhon From rls at webedb.com Thu Oct 20 12:58:13 2011 From: rls at webedb.com (rls at webedb.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:58:13 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <3f7cc77fa8df09d1f37786bfbe3b1b75.squirrel@mail.webedb.com> I use ARVIXE.com for my hosting.? I paid about $200 for 2 years of hosting.? I get unlimited SQL and MySQL databases. The hitch is that they are Express databases.? So, I do have the 10 GB limit.? But, if I am getting that big, I should be paying for a server co-located there or dedicated to my use. I can use SSMS against the databases I create there.? I have also used SSIS to move data there from my desktop databases. ? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:40:56 -0400 From: jwcolby To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server ???????? Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <4EA04108.3010807 at colbyconsulting.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed ? I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database.? What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost.? My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly.? I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. ? I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. ? John W. Colby Colby Consulting ? From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Thu Oct 20 15:06:51 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:06:51 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk>, <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Any special reason for using SQL Server rather than MySQL? It is always more expensive and more complex to use the former on a hosted web platform. -- Stuart On 20 Oct 2011 at 12:48, jwcolby wrote: > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about > performance. Using the web databases? > > I do many different things. ;) > > This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost > tiny databases used as the data store for access front ends for my > non-profit clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the > web where it is 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > > John > > > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about > > performance. Using the web databases? > > > > Martin > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > ________________________________ > > From: jwcolby > > Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 > > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > > > I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server > > database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or > > how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one > > MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, > > but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and > > those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more > > money. > > > > I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is > > like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. > > > > John W. Colby > > Colby Consulting > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > >> > >> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550& > >> trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > >> > >> Doug > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > >> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi JC, > >>> > >>> I've done it but I don't do it often. > >>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. > >>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details > >>> and they have it set up in no time. YMMV. You should be able to > >>> get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal and create a > >>> connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in tools > >>> (Plesk). Your host login should have admin privs over your > >>> database only. Name the db well as it will be sitting with many > >>> others. Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so > >>> I email them to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it > >>> back here. Got a feeling there will be issues with the user > >>> account, you may need to drop and recreate the login. Oh yeah, > >>> probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use > >>> Windows Authentication. > >>> > >>> Good luck > >>> > >>> Michael M > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > >>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > >>> jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM To: > >>> Sqlserver-Dba Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my > >>> web site > >>> > >>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql > >>> server databases though my web account. I have never used this > >>> but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I > >>> have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking > >>> them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of > >>> you guys do this? > >>> > >>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access > >>> FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a > >>> VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. > >>> I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and > >>> reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would > >>> make scaling issues go away. > >>> > >>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John W. Colby > >>> Colby Consulting > >>> > >>> Reality is what refuses to go away > >>> when you do not believe in it > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- > >>> No virus found in this message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: > >>> 10/19/11 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 16:26:08 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:26:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk>, <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA091F0.20001@colbyconsulting.com> It is a DNN site which uses MSSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 4:06 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Any special reason for using SQL Server rather than MySQL? > > It is always more expensive and more complex to use the former on a hosted web platform. > From fhtapia at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:42:28 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:42:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, I'm of course assuming you will continue using your db framework for the FE's. I cannot comment if the connection handling has improved with Access '07 / 2010?, but with the ADP's in 2000 and 2003 I had to go fully unbound so I could manage my connection objects so I would not get timed out. Given you are talking over the web, this is really where it comes into play, whenever I used a bound form over the interwebs I ended up with timeouts left and right...of course ymmv and this would definitely be something to investigate. if you are programming against web databases, this is where all that dba security stuff comes into play. You would absolutely NOT want any direct access to tables, (not because of your users) but if you've read any tech news sites the anonymous and other hacker groups use sql server injection methods to obtain data etc. if you have userid's that have blanket direct access to tables then the said intruder could easily dump the entire contents of your non-profit db's (ala sony). You will absolutely want to program everything through sprocs to minimize the impact. good luck. in our environment and with our host, we simply sent the host a copy of your db backup file which they restored on their end. Our db was supporting web front ends and in one minor case a MS Access 2003 DB FE. in the end we re-wrote it and re-deployed the application via the web and many of the easy features of Access have been lost forever to these users, but it was a business decision not to invest so much time in deploying Access FE's that could not easily be updated and suffered windows updates/office service pack hell. -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:48 AM, jwcolby wrote: > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. > Using the web databases? > > I do many different things. ;) > > This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost tiny > databases used as the data store for access front ends for my non-profit > clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the web where it is > 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> John >> >> Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. >> Using the web databases? >> >> Martin >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ______________________________**__ >> From: jwcolby >> Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server >> database. What I did not >> examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current >> ISP only allows me one >> MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase >> more, but even then only >> up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with >> package upgrades which cost >> a lot more money. >> >> I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like >> and solve the technical >> problems of using them for the future. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: >>> >>> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/**abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&** >>> promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=**nl.e550 >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: >>> >>> Hi JC, >>>> >>>> I've done it but I don't do it often. >>>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >>>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >>>> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >>>> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >>>> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >>>> tools (Plesk). >>>> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >>>> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >>>> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >>>> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >>>> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >>>> to drop and recreate the login. >>>> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >>>> Windows Authentication. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> Michael M >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces@**databaseadvisors.com] >>>> On Behalf Of jwcolby >>>> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >>>> To: Sqlserver-Dba >>>> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >>>> >>>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >>>> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >>>> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >>>> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >>>> "how to" >>>> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >>>> >>>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >>>> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >>>> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >>>> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >>>> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >>>> away. >>>> >>>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Fri Oct 21 09:57:01 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:57:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? Message-ID: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational database model" debate. http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds Alan C. Lawhon From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 21 11:59:02 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:59:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> Message-ID: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And they have me. That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this buzz word stuff. Check this out. http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html Notice the Employment size table John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational database model" > debate. > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Oct 21 18:39:26 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:39:26 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net>, <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA202AE.18011.7CEF780@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Agree 100% I am the IT Department for quite a few of my clients. Quite a few others have a reasonably savvy employee who "looks after the network" as *part* of their job. I do a fair bit of "handholding" for them. A few of the larger ones have 1 - 2 person IT Departments who call on me when they have a problem they can't fix. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Oct 21 18:54:08 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:54:08 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net>, <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Those are interesting stats which certainly show where the opportunities lie for consultant/developers such as ourselves. 78% of "firms" have no employees. Presumably, these are either accounting entities or people like ourselves. Of those who have employees ( i.e. real world "businesses": 72% have less than 20 employees 98% have less then 100 employees. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Oct 21 20:08:56 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: I guess the firms with no employees extend to family businesses. I was truly surprised by how many companies fail within that range. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 4:54 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop,and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? Those are interesting stats which certainly show where the opportunities lie for consultant/developers such as ourselves. 78% of "firms" have no employees. Presumably, these are either accounting entities or people like ourselves. Of those who have employees ( i.e. real world "businesses": 72% have less than 20 employees 98% have less then 100 employees. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Mon Oct 24 00:33:48 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:33:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] I Finally Figured Out A Use For The Modulo Function Message-ID: <000c01cc920e$81bd8360$85388a20$@net> Use integer arithmetic with the modulo function to determine if an integer is a prime number - of course!! (I almost feel like a programmer again.) J))) Alan C. Lawhon -- -- Figure out how to convert this script to a function and pass the prime number -- candidate in as a parameter. -- USE AP GO DECLARE @Prime_Number_Candidate AS int, @Y AS int, @Quotient AS int, @Remainder AS int SET @Prime_Number_Candidate = 29 -- -- Next two IF statements prevent a division by zero run-time error if -- @Prime_Number_Candidate just happens to be set to one. -- IF (@Prime_Number_Candidate = 1) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' IF (@Prime_Number_Candidate = 1) RETURN -- SET @Y = @Prime_Number_Candidate - 1 SET @Quotient = @Prime_Number_Candidate/@Y SET @Remainder = @Prime_Number_Candidate%@Y -- WHILE @Y > 1 BEGIN SET @Quotient = @Prime_Number_Candidate/@Y SET @Remainder = @Prime_Number_Candidate%@Y IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT @Prime_Number_Candidate AS Prime_Number_Candidate, @Y AS Prime_Candidate_Minus_1, @Quotient AS Quotient, @Remainder AS Remainder IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is NOT a prime number.' IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is evenly divisible by ' + CONVERT(varchar, @Y) + '.' IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) RETURN SET @Y = (@Y -1) END -- IF (@Y = 1) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' IF (@Y = 1) RETURN From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Oct 24 21:32:47 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:32:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] DRAM errors and ECC Message-ID: <4EA61FCF.10203@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 06:07:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:07:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines Message-ID: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. I did get all the VMs back, but this brought me to the question of how the pros migrate machines from server to server. My SQL Server (Azul) has Windows 2008 with Hyper-V installed and I am wondering how to cause a VM to be kept synced on two servers so that it can just fire up and go when the usual VM server has to be brought down. Hyper-V has an "export / import" but that takes a loooong time to perform. Is anyone out there involved in this stuff and do you have any answers to this problem? I would love to be able to just shut the machine down on one server and bring it up on the other. My impression is that it is possible to migrate without even shutting down the VM. How is this magic done? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From fuller.artful at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 06:13:36 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:13:36 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with Sun VirtualBox. A. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that > machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I > store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which > survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) > Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was > sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 06:26:24 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:26:24 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA69CE0.5060709@colbyconsulting.com> > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file from one server to another The short answer is no. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 7:13 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file > from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with > Sun VirtualBox. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 07:51:51 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 05:51:51 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file > from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with > Sun VirtualBox. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 08:39:37 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:39:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > >> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >> Sun VirtualBox. >> >> A. >> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >> >>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 10:00:53 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:00:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA6CF25.1030809@colbyconsulting.com> I have to say that Microsoft's VM system is just unfriendly. I understand that this stuff is complicated but that is all the more reason for Microsoft to spend the time to make it easier. 1) I have no idea the "why" behind this stuff but you cannot simply select the xml file and "mount" a VM. 2) If you "export" a vm then it can be imported. 3) AFAICT you cannot export a vm while it is running. The export menu item simply isn't there. 4) The export fails to a share on another machine on the directory. 5) The accepted fix is to add "machine" to the objects that the share allows and then select the source machine. 6) "Machine" is not a selection (on my machine) so I can't do that. 7) Even for people who are able to and try that, it only works some of the time. 8) When it fails it gives a generic "means nothing except it didn't work" error message. 9) There is no "backup", you have to "register" Hyper-V with the backup service / role. 10) Doing that requires a somewhat extensive manual modification to the registry. 11) Even if you can, the backup process is almost impossible to make happen unless you are backing up to identical machines. Two hours later I am no closer to getting a real automated backup happening of my virtual machines. I am now copying the files themselves. As I have always done in the past, because I ran into this same brick wall every time. :( 12) Having done that I cannot simply mount it on the machine I am copying it to. I have to manually create the machine on that destination machine and start it. Can you say "Frankenstein monster"? VMS are just way cool technology. Until you have to maintain them. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it >>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>> >>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>> >>>> From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:53:21 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:53:21 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: > No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>> Sun VirtualBox. >>> >>> A. >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>> >>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 11:33:58 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:33:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 11:53 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >>> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>>> Sun VirtualBox. >>>> >>>> A. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 11:39:32 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:39:32 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm shell? This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is it not working for you? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. > > I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. > > I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! > > Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. > > And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. > > My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. > > So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. > > It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 11:53 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >>>> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >>>> >>>> Sent from my mobile >>>> >>>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>>>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>>>> Sun VirtualBox. >>>>> >>>>> A. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 11:53:15 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:53:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is identical. The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had chewed some ass on this division's bosses. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm shell? > > This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, > in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is > it not working for you? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. >> >> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >> >> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! >> >> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. >> >> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >> >> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >> >> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >> >> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:41:45 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:41:45 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply re-import these files through Hyper-V lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. Suck it up John -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolby wrote: > This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment > doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. > Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is > identical. > > The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and > build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of > course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right > in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. > Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. > > Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I > have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had > chewed some ass on this division's bosses. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > >> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >> shell? >> >> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >> it not working for you? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >> wrote: >> >> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>> >>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>> >>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>> >>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>> computers. >>> >>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>> >>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>> >>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>> >>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 14:07:17 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:07:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> > Suck it up John LOL, Thanks Francisco. That's what I like about this list. I spend 75% of my day "sucking it up" because of the crap I have to do. Obviously you didn't read the thread. If I was just a low level IT kinda guy in some high $ IT department I would just sit with my feet up and "suck it up" all the way to the bank. As it is, in my life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! But I do appreciate your obvious concern. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale > through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply > re-import these files through Hyper-V > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what > could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. > > Suck it up John > > -Francisco > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment >> doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. >> Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is >> identical. >> >> The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and >> build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of >> course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right >> in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. >> Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. >> >> Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I >> have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had >> chewed some ass on this division's bosses. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> >>> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >>> shell? >>> >>> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >>> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >>> it not working for you? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>>> >>>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>>> >>>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>>> >>>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>>> computers. >>>> >>>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>>> >>>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>>> >>>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>>> >>>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:20:58 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:20:58 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, jwcolby wrote: > As it is, in my life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! > I did read your thread* Mr Jack of all Trades*... a 10 minute job is a lot better than the alternative could have been (silver lining). I get that you make money only when you are selling lists/reports, applications/databases etc. But just as any business has required maintenance, server IT maintenance is a required byproduct. If you were a cab service, you only make money when your cars are transporting people, but you still need to "loose" money in fueling the cabs up along with all the other required maintenance such oil changes, tune ups, new tires, belts, etc... server and network maintenance is the same, you can't magically be making money and not expect to service the computers and networks that provide you the benefit of working from home. :) in deed, Suck it up :) -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 26 14:31:12 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:31:12 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, , <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than you are when you are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional development) and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. -- Stuart On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:07, jwcolby wrote: > > Suck it up John > > LOL, Thanks Francisco. > > That's what I like about this list. > > I spend 75% of my day "sucking it up" because of the crap I have to > do. Obviously you didn't read the thread. If I was just a low level > IT kinda guy in some high $ IT department I would just sit with my > feet up and "suck it up" all the way to the bank. As it is, in my > life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! > > But I do appreciate your obvious concern. ;) > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be > > managale through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you > > can simply re-import these files through Hyper-V > > > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task > > vs what could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a > > backup. > > > > Suck it up John > > > > -Francisco > > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 15:15:30 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:15:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, , <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. I am assuming of course that this stellar advice comes from a sole proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of that. My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not as simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you honestly think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so I am going to charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to generate your required income". Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is not billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to my costs. If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. Do you honestly believe that if a business could charge whatever they want, that I would charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort would not cost 100K? What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is quite as simple as that. > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, then you won't make statements like that. I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is spending time caring about all the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would be out the door in a heartbeat. Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to run with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get my network running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I need to do that stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL Server... I learn just enough to get it running then if I ever need to do that again... I go learn much of it all over. I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still have to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and Access stuff, and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I *lose money* every time I have to go touch that. > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times the hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising their rates effectively immediately. My wife and family will be thrilled to see more of me. I will let you know the outcome. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than you are when you > are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional development) > and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 15:23:33 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:23:33 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> One of my favorite scenes and a perfect response to this email. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3E4aY7KDCM ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale > through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply > re-import these files through Hyper-V > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what > could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. > > Suck it up John > > -Francisco > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment >> doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. >> Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is >> identical. >> >> The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and >> build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of >> course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right >> in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. >> Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. >> >> Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I >> have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had >> chewed some ass on this division's bosses. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> >>> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >>> shell? >>> >>> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >>> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >>> it not working for you? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>>> >>>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>>> >>>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>>> >>>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>>> computers. >>>> >>>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>>> >>>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>>> >>>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>>> >>>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 26 15:54:00 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:54:00 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of that, Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. I said "required", not "desired". You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage for yourself. You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that determines your minimum billing rate. You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. -- Stuart On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > I am assuming of course that > > My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not > as simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you > honestly think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so > I am going to charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization > > Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to > generate your required income". > > Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is > not billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to > my costs. If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. > Do you honestly believe that if a business could charge whatever they > want, that I would charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort > would not cost 100K? > > What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is > quite as simple as that. > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, > then you won't make statements like that. > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you > are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not > then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. > In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is > spending time caring about all > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. > And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would > be out the door in a heartbeat. > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after > awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you > become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then > you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you > *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. > > A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to > run with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get > my network running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I > need to do that stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL > Server... I learn just enough to get it running then if I ever need to > do that again... I go learn much of it all over. > > I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still > have to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and > Access stuff, and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I > *lose money* every time I have to go touch that. > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times > the hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising > their rates effectively immediately. My wife and family will be > thrilled to see more of me. > > I will let you know the outcome. > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > > You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more > > than you are when you are doing your tax returns, learning how to > > program in C# (professional development) and.doing all the other > > things needed to run your business. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > > billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:45:44 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:45:44 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: LOL, because you forgot to run your backups right? LOL -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:23 PM, jwcolby wrote: > One of my favorite scenes and a perfect response to this email. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:51:29 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:51:29 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Mr Jack of All Trades (master of none) so you also change your own tires, belts, tune up, etc? If you are loosing > $$ to maintain your environment, it may be worthwhile to hire a contracting firm that can help reduce your costs so you can keep making $$, you won't need to think about backups, server hardware etc... -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:15 PM, jwcolby wrote: > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > I am assuming of course that this stellar advice comes from a sole > proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your > business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of > that. > > My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not as > simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you honestly > think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so I am going to > charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Profit_maximization > > Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to > generate your required income". > > Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is not > billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to my costs. > If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. Do you honestly > believe that if a business could charge whatever they want, that I would > charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort would not cost 100K? > > What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is quite > as simple as that. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, then > you won't make statements like that. > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you are > maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not then doing > billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. In either case, you can > bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is spending time caring about all > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. And I > would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would be out the > door in a heartbeat. > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after awhile you > become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you become an > *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then you become > efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you *relatively* little > money to do it because you are efficient. > > A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to run > with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get my network > running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I need to do that > stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL Server... I learn just > enough to get it running then if I ever need to do that again... I go learn > much of it all over. > > I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still have > to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and Access stuff, > and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I *lose money* every > time I have to go touch that. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times the > hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising their rates > effectively immediately. My wife and family will be thrilled to see more of > me. > > I will let you know the outcome. > > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > >> You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than >> you are when you >> are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional >> development) >> and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. >> >> You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your >> billable hours/outputs >> factoring in that 75%. >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:59:33 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:59:33 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: ROFLMAO, XD thanks for making Wednesday fun :) -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 > years.On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > > On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you > > are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not > > then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. > > In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is > > spending time caring about all > > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. > > And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would > > be out the door in a heartbeat. > > > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after > > awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you > > become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then > > you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you > > *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 23:17:22 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:17:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. And then you... As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE ;) LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE with gusto! ;) Nice chattin with ya Stuart! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 4:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole > proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your > business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all > of that, > > Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. > > I said "required", not "desired". > You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage > for yourself. > You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that > determines your minimum billing rate. > You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. > > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. > If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 06:51:58 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 04:51:58 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just the right YouTube clip to post into an email? Or is this part of your non-billable crap? Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford to just Suck it Up!! That's all part of the joy of running your own business. :) now quit wasting your time on non-billable crap and get back to those VMs! Sent from my mobile On Oct 26, 2011, at 9:18 PM, jwcolby wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. > > And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. > > And then you... > > As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. > > My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. > > I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > > > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. > > You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE > > ;) > > LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. > > Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE > > with gusto! > > ;) > > Nice chattin with ya Stuart! > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 4:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >> You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole >> proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your >> business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all >> of that, >> >> Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. >> >> I said "required", not "desired". >> You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage >> for yourself. >> You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that >> determines your minimum billing rate. >> You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. >> >> If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. >> If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well >> If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 08:31:04 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:31:04 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Francisco, > Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just the right YouTube clip to post into an email? LOL. Google is great. It took about 30 seconds to find just the right clip, and it was amusing as well. I might as well be amused, given all the very un-amusing crap I have to put up with. > Or is this part of your non-billable crap? Uhhh, yup! ;) But at least this is amusing non-billable crap. ;) > That's all part of the joy of running your own business. In fact is is all part of the joy of running my own business. I love running my own business. I love building the machines, I love learning how to do this stuff, I love the satisfaction of having a SOHO with a 16 core server with 64 gigs of ram and 8 tb of raid 6 storage. I love that I can run a sql server with 400 million records being used to fill orders in minutes / hours as opposed to the days that it took just a few years ago. I just love architecting systems in C# to automate this business. It used to be that all I did was remote in to other people's systems and do design work. I had none of this "overhead" because all I needed to do my job was my workstation and an internet connection. I got a new client, which pays me a ton of money, but which required that I do things that I had no training for - SQL Server admin, SQL Server programming, C# programming etc. Yep, it increased my workload because there is just no getting around the overhead of these systems. And it was almost impossible to forecast what would be required to get into this business. But I was underemployed in the Access arena and needed to do something. this client came to me and asked if I could do this stuff. I had never even touched SQL Server but I said "yep, I can do that" and I did. I do make plenty of money, way more than I would in most other lines of work and (at least) as much as I would as an employee doing my same job. And I get the immense satisfaction of setting my own schedule and all the other perks of being a sole proprietor. > Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford to just Suck it Up!! I obviously can afford to just suck it up. I just choose not to. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 7:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just > the right YouTube clip to post into an email? Or is this part of your > non-billable crap? > > Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford > to just Suck it Up!! > > That's all part of the joy of running your own business. > > :) now quit wasting your time on non-billable crap and get back to those VMs! > > > > > Sent from my mobile From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 10:45:15 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:45:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it saves the hassle and also the loot. My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is spelled out. To take a few examples: a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given project; b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all clients; c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. These issues can be handled in two ways: a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the invoice. In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. virtualization). Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the client's situation. Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 11:39:30 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:39:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> Arthur, Yes, an admirable discourse on the subject, in many ways and in some cases right on the money. Unfortunately missing from that is simply the acknowledgement of client size, and little things like accurately understanding the probability that I will run into something "not doable". For example this client is in fact a virtual company consisting of himself and a brother and a handful of employees. We are not talking a hundred million a year company with a server room fill of shiny toys and an entire suite of lawyers and accountants. Everyone in this virtual company works out of their own home. So I do this, and he pays my bills, but to try and hire the "big guns" to come in and help me is a non starter. I would end up eating a huge bill. Additionally missing is an accurate representation of how I can figure out that I am going to hit something I can't figure out in a reasonable time frame. I decided that I really need virtual machines. In fact I could live without them (as is true with just about everything in life) but they solve some problems neatly, and boy do they ever. I have a 3rd party software that is the center of this business which runs on my machine. I used to have it native install on hardware, but it is a royal pita to set up and license. Once that is done, it runs happily until... the hardware changes. Throw that in a VM and voila, copy the vm to another server on the new hardware and your are done. There are three other very useful VMs that I own, one where we do all of the C# development, what I call vmDev. Again, setting up a VM allows me to install visual studio, get it talking to the source control and so forth. There is a ton of setup required for that stuff but once done, I can just move the VM to faster hardware. So I launch into VMs. Can I just call up my small business client and explain to him that VMs are cool, they save me all this hassle and "oh by the way", no idea how much this will cost but just pony up a 10K check for hiring the big guns. That seems unlikely to fly. So I do it myself. And guess what, it is reasonably easy to do. And I have the knowledge in-house (my head) and I use that knowledge to do the basics and I remember the basics. Now... it comes time to back up the VMs. OMFG is that a nightmare! And I spend a ton of time studying this crap and never do get it working. And I manually copy machine directories which at least gets them backed up but is a crappy solution. So 6 months later I take another stab at it and OMFG is it (still) a nightmare! It is in those "OMFG is that a nightmare" scenarios where I spend non-billable hours that truly annoy me. A lot of "non-billable" hours truly are just the cost of doing business but there are other things like backing up a VM where it should just work. But it doesn't. And I cannot figure out why, nor can I calculate how much time I will spend to get it working, nor can I calculate how much I would spend to hire the big guns to fix it. Nor do I even know any big guns to fix it. Again, it kind of boils down to scale. For a big company you just put it in the budget for these kind of things, but there is a large income to carve that line item out of. You just call the IT guy into the office and tell him to get it done and he goes away and gets it done, out of the budget line item you provide. In my case I am the IT guy and it comes out of my rent. I just can't realistically pass it up. I understand perfectly what you are talking about Arthur. I long ago stopped doing my own plumbing and electrical work, which is the same concept. I can hire it done cheaper than I can do it myself. But I can pretty accurately estimate the cost / bene ratio and I know where to go find the plumber. In something this complex I really can't forecast whether I may end up paying someone a ton of money I don't have and can't recoup. *Those* are the issues that are just not fun as a sole proprietor. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 11:45 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be > skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical > applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my > (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it > saves the hassle and also the loot. > > My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into > each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable > items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the > alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be > part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these > costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this > issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is > spelled out. To take a few examples: > > a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given > project; > b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all > clients; > c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. > > These issues can be handled in two ways: > > a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or > b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the > invoice. > > In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a > monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it > client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. > > The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the > costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running > your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done > internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the > client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a > contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to > said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has > 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can > a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few > servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. > virtualization). > > Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread > (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a > small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what > they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given > my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to > be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe > that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just > plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and > lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant > fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the > client's situation. > > Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the > cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software > (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. > > Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the > client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could > potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be > recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge > this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone > on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure > restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case > the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. > > Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project > manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is > sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching > alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, > installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the > way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you > still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. > > That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her > costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of > hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:27:28 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:27:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, but as you stated, you do make enough $$ to just suck it up, which even if it is a pita to copy folders out because you haven't a clue how to properly backup your VMs. You've done the leg work and have been totaly unsucessful in properly backing up your VMs, true you have a workaround and you have an estimate of non-billable hours that you have spent on this task. You've also taken a stab at plumbing and your own electrical work which is how you figured it's cheaper to just hire in some "big guns" to get it done. knowing what you know now about how you cannot backup a VM, you could contact MS and ask for tech support and estimate on how to get the VMs backed up. It was in these scenarios when I was researching VMs on why I picked VMware, because they were established, and everything could be done by our IT team, because it did not take any strange voodoo magic or our company "sucking it up". and btw, I did the research on my on hours not on company time... technically any money on maintenance isn't ever re-couped, it's always a setback because if you hadn't spent it you'd still have it... Let's get back to SQL -Francisco On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:39 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Now... it comes time to back up the VMs. OMFG is that a nightmare! And I > spend a ton of time studying this crap and never do get it working. And I > manually copy machine directories which at least gets them backed up but is > a crappy solution. So 6 months later I take another stab at it and OMFG is > it (still) a nightmare! > > It is in those "OMFG is that a nightmare" scenarios where I spend > non-billable hours that truly annoy me. A lot of "non-billable" hours truly > are just the cost of doing business but there are other things like backing > up a VM where it should just work. But it doesn't. And I cannot figure out > why, nor can I calculate how much time I will spend to get it working, nor > can I calculate how much I would spend to hire the big guns to fix it. Nor > do I even know any big guns to fix it. > > Again, it kind of boils down to scale. For a big company you just put it > in the budget for these kind of things, but there is a large income to carve > that line item out of. You just call the IT guy into the office and tell > him to get it done and he goes away and gets it done, out of the budget line > item you provide. In my case I am the IT guy and it comes out of my rent. > I just can't realistically pass it up. > > I understand perfectly what you are talking about Arthur. I long ago > stopped doing my own plumbing and electrical work, which is the same > concept. I can hire it done cheaper than I can do it myself. But I can > pretty accurately estimate the cost / bene ratio and I know where to go find > the plumber. In something this complex I really can't forecast whether I > may end up paying someone a ton of money I don't have and can't recoup. > > *Those* are the issues that are just not fun as a sole proprietor. > > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 27 15:42:09 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:42:09 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a single OS. The problem is they succeeded very well in accomplishing their first objective of stopping anyone copying their VM drives but failed on making allowances for legitimate backup and recovery...or at least documenting a process to do same. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:17 PM To: dba-sqlserver at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. And then you... As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE ;) LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE with gusto! ;) Nice chattin with ya Stuart! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 27 15:52:29 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:52:29 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> I ran my own company (this is not counting a one-man proprietorship) for a few years and had a number of employees to deal with. The rule of thumb, with services, is to charge 3 times what something costs you. Part one pays off the cost, part two pays off the basic ongoing business expenses and part three is supposed to cover wasted time and pay you as the owner. It should work out to 30-30-40. That formula has worked very well for the last 30 plus years. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:45 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it saves the hassle and also the loot. My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is spelled out. To take a few examples: a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given project; b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all clients; c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. These issues can be handled in two ways: a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the invoice. In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. virtualization). Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the client's situation. Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. Arthur _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 16:00:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:00:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4EA9C66F.6090607@colbyconsulting.com> Apparently you didn't get the memo... to "get back to SQL Server stuff"? ;) I have a single part timer working as a consultant to me. I pay him 1/3 of my billing for his hours and I bill his hours through. So I am with you on that. Unfortunately as I give him raises I will not be able to just raise my rates to keep that ratio. But for the moment I am doing all right on that part. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 4:52 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > I ran my own company (this is not counting a one-man proprietorship) for a > few years and had a number of employees to deal with. The rule of thumb, > with services, is to charge 3 times what something costs you. > > Part one pays off the cost, part two pays off the basic ongoing business > expenses and part three is supposed to cover wasted time and pay you as the > owner. It should work out to 30-30-40. > > That formula has worked very well for the last 30 plus years. > > Jim From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 16:05:09 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:05:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4EA9C785.2090206@colbyconsulting.com> > The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a single OS. Of course they do have this problem, but I can still just copy the disk file and manually recreate it on another server and be up and running. Because of machine name collisions and such it takes a little more than that but still doable. They have actually made it possible to somehow do a live transfer but that is way over my head or abilities. I would actually love to be able to do that, it sure would have made this whole server upgrade much nicer, but it is just not within my grasp. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their > virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a > single OS. > > The problem is they succeeded very well in accomplishing their first > objective of stopping anyone copying their VM drives but failed on making > allowances for legitimate backup and recovery...or at least documenting a > process to do same. > > Jim From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 1 15:13:52 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2011 16:13:52 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption Message-ID: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all partitions) and so here I am. Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the other disk. The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just hung, never finished loading windows. In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. Things never work the way I envision them working. Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Sun Oct 2 07:05:10 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:05:10 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" Book Message-ID: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama From marklbreen at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 04:37:32 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 10:37:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work well. I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. Do you know how / why that is ? thanks Mark On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby wrote: > The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a > whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which > does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt > anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on > another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. > > So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 > gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I > then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing > and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during > the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. > > It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all > partitions) and so here I am. > > Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another > computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the > other disk. > > The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt > encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then > apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just > hung, never finished loading windows. > > In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then > hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, > and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know > what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. > > Things never work the way I envision them working. > > Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to > enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then > off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... > > -- > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Oct 3 05:32:54 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 06:32:54 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. The truth is that the impact depends directly on the horsepower of the processor. On a low end Celeron it would be largish. On a single core AMD or Intel it would be barely noticeable and on anything more powerful, including multi-cores it is negligible. > Do you know how / why that is ? The impact is "fixed" in that it has to run each sector read through decryption. The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to encryption. John W. Colby Colby Consulting On 10/3/2011 5:37 AM, Mark Breen wrote: > Hi John, > > I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work well. > > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by > less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. > > Do you know how / why that is ? > thanks > Mark > > > On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby wrote: > >> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a >> whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which >> does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt >> anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on >> another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. >> >> So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 >> gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. I >> then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole thing >> and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep during >> the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. >> >> It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all >> partitions) and so here I am. >> >> Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on another >> computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the >> other disk. >> >> The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt >> encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and then >> apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It just >> hung, never finished loading windows. >> >> In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then >> hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the laptop, >> and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know >> what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. >> >> Things never work the way I envision them working. >> >> Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to >> enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, then >> off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 14:33:30 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:33:30 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] True Crypt whole disk encryption In-Reply-To: <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4E877480.2080209@colbyconsulting.com> <4E898F56.3080403@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John >The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to encryption. this was what I thought I read, that there was some dedicated hardware that is a tunnel that is used all the time, so it makes no difference whether it is encrypted or not, somehow, it sounded too good to be true. thanks Mark On 3 October 2011 11:32, jwcolby wrote: > > I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even > by less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. > > The truth is that the impact depends directly on the horsepower of the > processor. On a low end Celeron it would be largish. On a single core AMD > or Intel it would be barely noticeable and on anything more powerful, > including multi-cores it is negligible. > > > > Do you know how / why that is ? > > The impact is "fixed" in that it has to run each sector read through > decryption. The algorithms are not particularly compute intensive and in > fact there are apparently instructions on newer processors dedicated to > encryption. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > On 10/3/2011 5:37 AM, Mark Breen wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> I used True Crypt last year for an External Disk and it seemed to work >> well. >> >> I read in the docs that it does not / cannot slow the machine down even by >> less than 1%. They actually said it as a 0% performance hit. >> >> Do you know how / why that is ? >> thanks >> Mark >> >> >> On 1 October 2011 21:13, jwcolby> >> wrote: >> >> The last iteration with my laptop I used Windows Bit locker to perform a >>> whole disk encryption. This time I am using Windows 7 Home Premium which >>> does not include Bit locker. I had just about decided to use True Crypt >>> anyway because with Bil Locker I was unable to mount the old hard disk on >>> another computer to pull the old contents off onto the new disk. >>> >>> So when I installed Windows 7 I broke the disk into three partitions, a 6 >>> gig for the swap file, 100 gig for the OS/programs and 400 gig for data. >>> I >>> then started Truecrypt and told it to go to work encrypting the whole >>> thing >>> and went to bed. In the morning... the computer had decided to sleep >>> during >>> the night (lazy thing!) and so it was only 25% finished. >>> >>> It took most of the day to finish encrypting the entire disk (all >>> partitions) and so here I am. >>> >>> Having done that I decided to hang the truecrypt encrypted disk on >>> another >>> computer, put the old disk back in and push the disk contents out to the >>> other disk. >>> >>> The other disk would not finish loading Windows with the truecrypt >>> encrypted disk on it! It would start to load Windows (2008 server) and >>> then >>> apparently it ran into the true crypt disk and couldn't handle it. It >>> just >>> hung, never finished loading windows. >>> >>> In the end I told the bitlocker software to unencrypt the old disk, then >>> hung that on another machine and put the truecrypt disk back in the >>> laptop, >>> and pulled everything into the new disk. Well not everything but you know >>> what I mean. At least I can do that with the unencrypted disk drive. >>> >>> Things never work the way I envision them working. >>> >>> Truecrypt is not significantly slowing down the new disk. I do have to >>> enter the password at the point where the bios tries to load windows, >>> then >>> off it goes. Not good for auto reboot after software updates... >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadviso**rs.com < >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/****mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> ** >>> **> >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.****com >>> > >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From ab-mi at post3.tele.dk Tue Oct 4 18:50:35 2011 From: ab-mi at post3.tele.dk (Asger Blond) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 01:50:35 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book In-Reply-To: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> References: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> Message-ID: <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> Hi Alan, The condition: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 Is equivalent to: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR (InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0) That's why you get all records where InvoiceDate is greater than '05-01-2008', no matter what the InvoiceTotal or the BalanceDue is. The 89 records which are bothering you (having a BalanceDue equal to 0.00) are included in the result set because they satisfy the condition InvoceDate > '05-01-2008'. Your rewritten where clause has a quite different meaning: WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0. This condition says: all records having a BalanceDue greater than 0 and either an InvoiceDate greater than '05-01-2008' or an InvoiceTotal greater than 500. I agree that the condition as written in the book (which I haven't read) might be confusing. I would prefer the equivalent expression using parenthesis a shown above. Asger -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Alan Lawhon Sendt: 2. oktober 2011 14:05 Til: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Emne: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Tue Oct 4 22:02:07 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:02:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book In-Reply-To: <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> References: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> <16ED7FAA437E4347B49FBE7281698940@abpc> Message-ID: <000801cc830b$2afbdd90$80f398b0$@net> Asger: I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with that first (confusing) WHERE clause (the one without parentheses) before it became obvious that the first condition prior to the "OR" operator, (i.e. WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008'), was being evaluated first and records meeting that condition were included in the result set. What threw me (in both of the WHERE clauses) was the BalanceDue calculation following the "AND" logical operator. My understanding of the AND logical operator is that both expressions (on both sides of the AND operator) must evaluate to "True" in order for a record to be included in the result set. In the first WHERE clause, since the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "False" for 89 of the records returned, it didn't make sense to me that those 89 records should be in the result set. Using the parenthesis in the second WHERE clause made much better sense since those 89 records - where the BalanceDue calculation was not > 0 - were excluded from the result set. I suppose the point the Murach book was trying to get across is that you need to be really careful about how you use logical operators in WHERE clauses. Thanks for taking a look at this. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Asger Blond Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 6:51 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book Hi Alan, The condition: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 Is equivalent to: WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR (InvoiceTotal > 500 AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0) That's why you get all records where InvoiceDate is greater than '05-01-2008', no matter what the InvoiceTotal or the BalanceDue is. The 89 records which are bothering you (having a BalanceDue equal to 0.00) are included in the result set because they satisfy the condition InvoceDate > '05-01-2008'. Your rewritten where clause has a quite different meaning: WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0. This condition says: all records having a BalanceDue greater than 0 and either an InvoiceDate greater than '05-01-2008' or an InvoiceTotal greater than 500. I agree that the condition as written in the book (which I haven't read) might be confusing. I would prefer the equivalent expression using parenthesis a shown above. Asger -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] P? vegne af Alan Lawhon Sendt: 2. oktober 2011 14:05 Til: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Emne: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:13:04 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:13:04 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Hello All, I have some sad news to share with you all. Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists as he spoke of it often. A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to everyone as soon as he shares any further information. My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. John Bartow, President Database Advisors, Inc. Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:15:51 2011 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:15:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: My God, John! That is terrible news! Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > From erbachs at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:19:07 2011 From: erbachs at gmail.com (Steve Erbach) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:19:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: John, Do you have contact info for his next of kin? Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share > this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists > as > he spoke of it often. > > > > A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk > and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The > paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was > pronounced dead upon arrival. > > > > Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to > everyone > as soon as he shares any further information. > > > > My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. > > > > John Bartow, President > > Database Advisors, Inc. > > Office: 920-582-7574 > > Mobile: 920-410-7574 > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:37:50 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> Ken will be keeping me apprised of any further info including next of kin. I'll pass along anything I receive. Drew's daughter is only 12 so I'm sure we need to be careful on how we communicate on this. -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve Erbach Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 2:19 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka John, Do you have contact info for his next of kin? Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > > > Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. > > > > His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to > share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the > DBA lists as he spoke of it often. > > > > A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his > desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no > pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital > where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. > > > > Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to > everyone as soon as he shares any further information. > > > > My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. > > > > John Bartow, President > > Database Advisors, Inc. > > Office: 920-582-7574 > > Mobile: 920-410-7574 > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Regards, Steve Erbach Neenah, WI http://www.NeenahPolitics.com http://www.TheTownCrank.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 14:05:41 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:05:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701cc8391$c6c445b0$544cd110$@winhaven.net> Hello All, I have some sad news to share with you all. Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the DBA lists as he spoke of it often. A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to everyone as soon as he shares any further information. My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. John Bartow, President Database Advisors, Inc. Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From fuller.artful at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 15:16:36 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 16:16:36 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: This makes me a very sad person indeed. I keep thinking of all my misdeeds and that somehow I manage to survive, when other people who have done thousands of good things and few bad, pass before me. Drew contributed a vast amount to this community. I never met him in person but have exchanged hundreds of emails with him, and came to regard him as a friend. I am kind of speechless receiving this information. He gave his best to us all. A. On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Hello All, > > I have some sad news to share with you all. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 5 15:28:03 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:28:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka In-Reply-To: <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> References: <00ab01cc8392$cec73f50$6c55bdf0$@winhaven.net> <010c01cc8396$44b530c0$ce1f9240$@winhaven.net> Message-ID: <4E8CBDD3.900@colbyconsulting.com> Man that will take your breath away. Drew was essentially one of our founding members. DatabaseAdvisors needs to formally express out condolences to the family. This is a sad day. John W. Colby Colby Consulting On 10/5/2011 3:37 PM, John Bartow wrote: > Ken will be keeping me apprised of any further info including next of kin. > I'll pass along anything I receive. > > Drew's daughter is only 12 so I'm sure we need to be careful on how we > communicate on this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Steve > Erbach > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 2:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] FW: The passing of Drew Wutka > > John, > > Do you have contact info for his next of kin? > > Regards, > > Steve Erbach > Neenah, WI > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:13 PM, John Bartow wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> I have some sad news to share with you all. >> >> >> >> Long time lister and friend to many, Drew Wutka, passed away Monday. >> >> >> >> His friend, Ken, contacted me and a number of other board members to >> share this news with us because he knew that Drew participated on the >> DBA lists as he spoke of it often. >> >> >> >> A coworker walked by Drew's office he saw that he had his head on his >> desk and went in to check on him. The coworker found that he and no >> pulse. The paramedics were called and he was taken to the hospital >> where he was pronounced dead upon arrival. >> >> >> >> Ken will keep me apprised of the situation and I will pass it on to >> everyone as soon as he shares any further information. >> >> >> >> My deepest condolences to all of Drew's family and friends. >> >> >> >> John Bartow, President >> >> Database Advisors, Inc. >> >> Office: 920-582-7574 >> >> Mobile: 920-410-7574 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > > -- > Regards, > > Steve Erbach > Neenah, WI > http://www.NeenahPolitics.com > http://www.TheTownCrank.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 18:11:35 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:11:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] FW: Drew Wutka's Services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b201cc83b4$214d2e80$63e78b80$@winhaven.net> Forwarded From Ken: I spoke with Drew's mom and told her the many wonderful and kind things you guys have written about Drew.? I told her I could forward them and she was excited, so I did in fact send them to her.? ? If you have anything you can share I am certain she and Hannah, and his Dad would love it.? Her email address is: nwutka at sbcglobal.com The following is the information relating to his services: Viewing at Turrentine Jackson Morrow I-75 and ridgeview Thursday 6-7 972-562-2601 Preston Meadow Lutheran 10:30 Friday after back to church for light lunch 972-618-2233 Please feel free to contact me and share this information as you deem necessary. Kenneth Van Huss ? VanGard Systems Office (214) 801-4357 ext 335 Fax??? (214) 299-8597 Cell??? (214) 243-5659 kvanhuss at airrsystem.com From john at winhaven.net Wed Oct 5 18:21:04 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 18:21:04 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Drew Wutka memorial ideas Message-ID: <01b301cc83b5$741defe0$5c59cfa0$@winhaven.net> Hello Listers, While I agree that we should do something as a group, I also encourage you all to act on your own accord. As Ken mentioned in his email that I just sent out, his family was very happy to hear of our fond thoughts and reminiscing's of Drew. I encourage you to send emails, Facebooks postings, cards, etc. I would like to see what everyone would like to do for Drew. A couple of ideas were to send something to his service from DBA, collect for a DBA memorial fund to aid his daughter Hannah. Any other ideas? John Bartow WinHaven Consulting PO Box 130 Winneconne, WI 54986 Office: 920-582-7574 Mobile: 920-410-7574 From john at winhaven.net Thu Oct 6 21:08:25 2011 From: john at winhaven.net (John Bartow) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:08:25 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Drew Wutka's Obituary page Message-ID: <01d401cc8495$ffb642b0$ff22c810$@winhaven.net> http://www.turrentinejacksonmorrow.com/detail.php?id=6177 From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Thu Oct 13 06:35:06 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:35:06 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar Message-ID: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) followed by my question. NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are all of data type (money, not null) USE AP GO DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, -- CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] -- FROM Invoices WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC Here are two records from the result set: Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN Balance Due 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 19,351.18 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 10,976.06 OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due fields both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a calculated alias field value.) This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things like this. Alan C. Lawhon From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 13 08:05:34 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:05:34 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] See you in space! Message-ID: <4E96E21E.3080100@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Red+Gate+Software/76406/ -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 13 10:30:52 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:30:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser ver/ This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) Jim From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:58:09 2011 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:58:09 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: It is because you are converting them to varchars. If you leave them as money, you should be fine. If you want to use the formatting that STR provides, convert it to money first, like I did in Test2: DECLARE @InvoiceNumber AS int SET @InvoiceNumber = 12345 DECLARE @InvoiceTotal AS MONEY SET @InvoiceTotal = 1999.99 DECLARE @PaymentTotal AS MONEY SET @PaymentTotal = 20 DECLARE @CreditTotal AS MONEY SET @CreditTotal = 5 DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT @InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, @InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(@InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2),1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, CONVERT(varchar, CAST(STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2) AS MONEY) ,1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN2, CAST(@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)AS MONEY) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST3, (@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST4, -- CONVERT(varchar, (@InvoiceTotal - (@PaymentTotal + @CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > From garykjos at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:02:16 2011 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:02:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: Preface this answer by saying I don't do a lot of SQL Server queries. In your convert statements you are converting the output of the calculated fields to varchar. Varchar wouldn't seem to be a format that includes formatting like dollar signs and commas or a specific number of decimals like something like MONEY type would. If you replaced the varchar with money would you get the result you are looking for? On the two fields in question you also have a STR in there which would convert the money type fields to a string before the addition. That would then remove the money type formatting as well wouldn't it? If you remove that str function you would also get the similar format result as on the balance due. Why do you need the convert and the str functions in there at all for those fields? They would appear to be numeric values that you are converting to some kind of non-numeric format and then doing the mathematic functions on them. GK On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: ?Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- ? ? The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > ? ? ? CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > ? ? ?Number ? ? ?InvoiceTotal ? ? ?TEN_PERCENT ? ? INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 ? ?P-0608 ? ? ? ? 20,551.18 ? ? ? ? ? ? 2055.12 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 ? ?0-2436 ? ? ? ? 10,976.06 ? ? ? ? ? ? 1097.61 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. ?In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due fields > both display with the comma? ?(In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 12:10:57 2011 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:10:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: I wouldn't worry about the formatting. Let the front end (access, VB, what ever) do it. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Gary Kjos wrote: > Preface this answer by saying I don't do a lot of SQL Server queries. > > In your convert statements you are converting the output of the > calculated fields to varchar. Varchar wouldn't seem to be a format > that includes formatting like dollar signs and commas or a specific > number of decimals like something like MONEY type would. If you > replaced the varchar with money would you get the result you are > looking for? On the two fields in question you also have a STR in > there which would convert the money type fields to a string before the > addition. That would then remove the money type formatting as well > wouldn't it? If you remove that str function you would also get the > similar format result as on the balance due. > > Why do you need the convert and the str functions in there at all for > those fields? They would appear to be numeric values that you are > converting to some kind of non-numeric format and then doing the > mathematic functions on them. > > GK > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > > followed by my question. > > > > > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" > are > > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > > > > > USE AP > > > > GO > > > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > > > -- > > > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > > > -- > > > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS > TEN_PERCENT, > > > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, > 2), > > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > > > -- > > > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) > AS > > [Balance Due] > > > > -- > > > > FROM Invoices > > > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > > Balance Due > > > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 > 22606.30 > > 19,351.18 > > > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 > 12073.67 > > 10,976.06 > > > > > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without > the > > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument > in > > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > > calculated alias field value.) > > > > > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > > like this. > > > > > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > > > -- > Gary Kjos > garykjos at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Fri Oct 14 02:58:21 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 02:58:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc899c$2858bf30$790a3d90$@net> Message-ID: <000901cc8a47$0aba89d0$202f9d70$@net> David, Gary: Success!! (Thanks for your help.) Using the CAST function in conjunction with the STR and CONVERT functions to define the "TEN_PERCENT" and "INVOICE_PLUS_TEN" calculated fields did the trick. It's kind of interesting how you can get a syntax error if you use "AS" when SQL Server is looking for "As" instead. (SQL Server very picky ...) Applying CAST and STR to the other three [money] fields wasn't necessary as those three fields are base table fields already defined as data type (money, not null). Application of a straight CONVERT function to those fields worked. I agree with whichever one of you who noted that output formatting should be handled by the front end client. I shouldn't have gotten so wrapped around the axle on this, but this was an exercise problem from the chapter on basic SELECT statement syntax. (I'm now proceeding on to the chapter dealing with multi-table joins.) I'm still in the early chapters of the training book I'm working through. After a five year "break" from daily programming, my recollection of some of these topics is rusty. Later chapters of the book get into very involved and very intricate discussions of all the SQL Server data types and how to handle common problems that arise from the interaction of incompatible data types. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Converting an Alias (Calculated Field) of Money Data Type to Display as varchar It is because you are converting them to varchars. If you leave them as money, you should be fine. If you want to use the formatting that STR provides, convert it to money first, like I did in Test2: DECLARE @InvoiceNumber AS int SET @InvoiceNumber = 12345 DECLARE @InvoiceTotal AS MONEY SET @InvoiceTotal = 1999.99 DECLARE @PaymentTotal AS MONEY SET @PaymentTotal = 20 DECLARE @CreditTotal AS MONEY SET @CreditTotal = 5 DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; SELECT @InvoiceNumber AS Number, CONVERT(varchar, @InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], -- -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. -- CONVERT(varchar, STR(@InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, CONVERT(varchar, STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2),1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, CONVERT(varchar, CAST(STR((@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2) AS MONEY) ,1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN2, CAST(@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)AS MONEY) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST3, (@InvoiceTotal + (@InvoiceTotal * 0.10)) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN_TEST4, -- CONVERT(varchar, (@InvoiceTotal - (@PaymentTotal + @CreditTotal)), 1) AS [Balance Due] On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > I've played around with this one to the point where it's driving me nuts. > The code snippet follows (along with two records from the result set) > followed by my question. > > > > NOTE: Base table fields "InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, and CreditTotal" are > all of data type (money, not null) > > > > USE AP > > GO > > DECLARE @TEN_PERCENT AS money; > > DECLARE @INVOICE_PLUS_TEN AS money; > > SELECT InvoiceNumber AS Number, > > CONVERT(varchar, InvoiceTotal, 1) AS [Invoice Total], > > -- > > -- The three following fields are all alias calculated fields. > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, STR(InvoiceTotal * 0.10, 10, 2), 1) AS TEN_PERCENT, > > CONVERT(varchar, STR((InvoiceTotal + (InvoiceTotal * 0.10)), 10, 2), > 1) AS INVOICE_PLUS_TEN, > > -- > > CONVERT(varchar, (InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal)), 1) AS > [Balance Due] > > -- > > FROM Invoices > > WHERE InvoiceTotal - (PaymentTotal + CreditTotal) > 1000 > > ORDER BY InvoiceTotal DESC > > > > Here are two records from the result set: > > > > Number InvoiceTotal TEN_PERCENT INVOICE_PLUS_TEN > Balance Due > > 1 P-0608 20,551.18 2055.12 22606.30 > 19,351.18 > > 2 0-2436 10,976.06 1097.61 12073.67 > 10,976.06 > > > > OK, here's my question. In the display output for the TEN_PERCENT and > INVOICE_PLUS_TEN calculated fields, why do those values display without the > comma character while the values for the InvoiceTotal and Balance Due > fields > both display with the comma? (In other words, the "style = 1" argument in > the CONVERT function seems to work just fine when converting base table > [money] fields to varchar data type, but not when attempting to convert a > calculated alias field value.) > > > > This is nitpicking (I know), but I get wrapped around the axle on things > like this. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 14 06:31:54 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:31:54 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving > into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will > be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > ver/ > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca Fri Oct 14 16:27:42 2011 From: jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:27:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Not at all John...who said anything about the web? Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your equipment every so many months. Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially moving > into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, will > be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > ver/ > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 14 17:37:33 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 18:37:33 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) I see NO NOSQL in my future. I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/14/2011 5:27 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Not at all John...who said anything about the web? > > Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to > take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe > you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your > equipment every so many months. > > Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > > LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially > moving >> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, > will >> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >> >> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser >> ver/ >> >> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> Jim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fuller.artful at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 19:50:32 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:50:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to work. I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby wrote: > > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > > LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >> moving >> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >> will >> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** >> integration_sql_ser >> ver/ >> >> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> Jim >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sat Oct 15 01:47:28 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:47:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) - Hans On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) > > I see NO NOSQL in my future. > > I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. > > It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/14/2011 5:27 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> Not at all John...who said anything about the web? >> >> Maybe you will eventually become too impatient to wait for a process job to >> take half an hour or an hour, when it could be finished in minutes or maybe >> you will want to retire and will not want to be having to replace all your >> equipment every so many months. >> >> Regardless, you will want fast and cheap...I see NOSQL in your future. ;-) >> >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 4:32 AM >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead >> >> > This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >> moving >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >> will >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >>> >>> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser >>> ver/ >>> >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >>> Jim >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sat Oct 15 01:58:22 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 23:58:22 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> Hey Arthur, Have you considered maybe going down a more conventional route, instead of RoR. RoR is pretty awesome, but it takes a lot of investment upfront to understand all the abstract concepts and all the scaffolding, which folks who have been there since early Ruby days take for granted, since they've seen it evolve. I might suggest instead something like Python + Django or, if you haven't got a deep-seated, irrational hatred of PHP, something like Symfony (my personal favourite) or Zend Framework. All of these are very fine web frameworks, which do a good job of taking out all the tediousness of web development. But, no matter what, you will still need to learn few basic abstract concepts (and I'm not making any assumptions of your knowledge or capability) like MVC and basic patterns. If its not something you are already familiar with, its something you will find invaluable for any future software project you take on, regardless of language or goal. RoR is a lot of this, just plus a ton of scaffolding that takes time before its intuitive (plus - python and php are much more familiar languages; similar to C compared to Ruby), which is why perhaps it has a bit of a learning curve. - Hans On 2011-10-14, at 5:50 PM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of > this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to work. > I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >> >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: >> >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially >>> moving >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, >>> will >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. >>> >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** >>> integration_sql_ser >>> ver/ >>> >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) >>> Jim >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 02:42:52 2011 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:42:52 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4421DF34-63E9-44EF-A389-6D6AA21DFEDC@phulse.com> Message-ID: Hello Arthur, I hope I do not offend you with my suggestion. If you, like me, two or three years ago, have never really built a website, then take a look at google apps. It allows you to build websites with no programming. They are fun to do, easy to manage, it is all online and for companies with less than ten emails addresses, it is free. It is not RnR, but you would build 5 - 10 sites a month easily. And people love playing with it themselves, so you can hand it over and forget about it. Just a contrast with the heavy work that we sometimes have to struggle with, Mark On 15 October 2011 07:58, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hey Arthur, > > Have you considered maybe going down a more conventional route, instead of > RoR. RoR is pretty awesome, but it takes a lot of investment upfront to > understand all the abstract concepts and all the scaffolding, which folks > who have been there since early Ruby days take for granted, since they've > seen it evolve. > > I might suggest instead something like Python + Django or, if you haven't > got a deep-seated, irrational hatred of PHP, something like Symfony (my > personal favourite) or Zend Framework. All of these are very fine web > frameworks, which do a good job of taking out all the tediousness of web > development. But, no matter what, you will still need to learn few basic > abstract concepts (and I'm not making any assumptions of your knowledge or > capability) like MVC and basic patterns. If its not something you are > already familiar with, its something you will find invaluable for any future > software project you take on, regardless of language or goal. > > RoR is a lot of this, just plus a ton of scaffolding that takes time before > its intuitive (plus - python and php are much more familiar languages; > similar to C compared to Ruby), which is why perhaps it has a bit of a > learning curve. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-14, at 5:50 PM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > > > Could be, but I have no clue how to build a web siie, so count me out of > > this thread. I a \my trying to learn RoR but I can't even get that to > work. > > I think it best to return to the garageage and fork the altertanetives. > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 7:31 AM, jwcolby >wrote: > > > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > >> > >> LOL. Are you telling me my future is in building web sites? > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> Colby Consulting > >> > >> Reality is what refuses to go away > >> when you do not believe in it > >> > >> > >> On 10/13/2011 11:30 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> > >>> After a much speculation, Microsoft has announced they are officially > >>> moving > >>> into the Map Reduced world of NOSQL. It seems that Hadoop, from Apache, > >>> will > >>> be fully integrated into MS SQL 2012 and Azure. > >>> > >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_** > >>> integration_sql_ser< > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/microsoft_hadoop_integration_sql_ser > > > >>> ver/ > >>> > >>> This is great news. (John you are so lucky! ;-)) > >>> Jim > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com < > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com> > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver< > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver> > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > >>> > >>> > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com < > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com> > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver< > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver> > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fuller.artful at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 07:16:02 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 08:16:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: I have experimented with Python and so far I love it. I know a thing or two about PHP so I think I'll give your recommendation a try. A. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 08:30:06 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Hans, >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. How does this sound like NoSQL? Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. IOW, LMTFA!!! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > - Hans > > > > On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >> >> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >> >> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >> >> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >> >> John W. Colby From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 08:40:29 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:40:29 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] This just in: NoSQL In-Reply-To: <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E998D4D.1020104@colbyconsulting.com> Please read this *carefully*!!! Notice that every other paragraph emphasizes "unstructured data". http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9220737/Don_t_get_carried_away_by_Hadoop_s_gee_whiz_factor John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > - Hans From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 22:52:01 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:52:01 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] For those in need Message-ID: <4E9A54E1.5020609@colbyconsulting.com> Who think my server is puny... http://www.nccs.gov/computing-resources/jaguar/access/ You too can do super computing. -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 23:08:03 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 00:08:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port my app? ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Oct 15 23:20:26 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 00:20:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> Hmmm... from http://www.cray.com/Assets/PDF/products/xt/IDCLink.pdf Power and cooling costs have become one of the top concerns of HPC buyers, and IBM's "Roadrunner" petaflop system is very energy efficient. It consumes about 2.5 megawatts, versus about 7 megawatts for "Jaguar." One reason for the large difference in power, as HPC luminary Jack Dongarra notes, is that the Jaguar computer has more memory than Roadrunner, which adds to Jaguar's power consumption. I sure hope I really need this NoSQL stuff. My power bill is about to go up I think. :) But hey, maybe I can start leasing super computer time eh? John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 12:08 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html > > Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant > to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port > my app? > > ;) > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > >> > >> > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid > >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > >> > >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can > >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > >> > >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:08:16 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:08:16 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> Hi John, If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 9:20 PM, jwcolby wrote: > Hmmm... from > > http://www.cray.com/Assets/PDF/products/xt/IDCLink.pdf > > Power and cooling costs have become one of the top concerns of HPC buyers, and IBM's "Roadrunner" > petaflop system is very energy efficient. It consumes about 2.5 megawatts, versus about 7 megawatts for "Jaguar." One reason for the large difference in power, as HPC luminary Jack Dongarra notes, is that the Jaguar computer has more memory than Roadrunner, which adds to Jaguar's power consumption. > > I sure hope I really need this NoSQL stuff. My power bill is about to go up I think. > > :) > > But hey, maybe I can start leasing super computer time eh? > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 12:08 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> I'll buy one of these next month to host my shiny new NOSQL database. >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/11/oak_ridge_cray_nvidia_titan/print.html >> >> Is this enough power for what I am doing? I assume it will run Hadoop? Can I buy a nuke power plant >> to go with it? Will it (and the nuke plant) fit in my basement? How many years will it take to port >> my app? >> >> ;) >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid >> >> growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can >> >> save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> >> >> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:34:50 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:34:50 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know what your business requirements are better than anyone else. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. > > To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. > > >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! > > I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. > > I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. > > As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. > > How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? > > I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. > > Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. > > How does this sound like NoSQL? > > Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. > > I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. > > I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. > > *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* > > I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. > > And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. > > IOW, LMTFA!!! > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans >> >> >> >> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >>> >>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>> >>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >>> >>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >>> >>> John W. Colby > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 01:51:54 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:51:54 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> Message-ID: <0F3F407D-A951-4840-AA4B-A32D4FB0700A@phulse.com> Thats awesome, Arthur. I think, in that case, have a good look at Django. Much can be said about the good and bad about PHP (and I will agree on many things), but Python is inherently a better, more future-proof language by any objective measure. The only advantage PHP has is that it is far easier to deploy. Saying that, PHP is fairly capable for most things and if you want a good solid framework, Symfony is a really nice framework. :) If you have any questions about anything web app / web development related in general, feel free to ask and I hope I will be able to give you any help. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 5:16 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I have experimented with Python and so far I love it. I know a thing or two > about PHP so I think I'll give your recommendation a try. > > A. > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 07:29:45 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:29:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A58A3.5080108@colbyconsulting.com> <4E9A5B8A.6060203@colbyconsulting.com> <5457342D-A5C2-43B7-AB71-F5A568DA5C70@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E9ACE39.1010707@colbyconsulting.com> I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. > > - Hans From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Sun Oct 16 13:41:27 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:41:27 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Had to read up on this as never heard of it. http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: jwcolby Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. > > - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 14:25:32 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:25:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as > SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you > are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 14:36:21 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:36:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Oct 16 15:57:26 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:57:26 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi Hans: Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These figures would be: 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience with. 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hans-Christian Andersen Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead Hi John, I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know what your business requirements are better than anyone else. - Hans On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. > > I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. > > To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search documents*. > > >>It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) > > I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't apply to me! > > I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. > > I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes (fields) in the attribute table. > > As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses Foxpro to process it. > > How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? > > I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I do. > > Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 table pairs to select records based on commonality. > > How does this sound like NoSQL? > > Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. > > I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. > > I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire database. > > *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* > > I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. > > And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable technology applies to me. > > IOW, LMTFA!!! > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> - Hans >> >> >> >> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and will quit haranguing me? ;) >>> >>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>> >>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long processes are under a minute or two. >>> >>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would instantly quit this nonsense. >>> >>> John W. Colby > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 16:41:01 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:41:01 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Sun Oct 16 17:36:31 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:36:31 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> Absolutely excellent articles Michael...great research and a great read. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 2:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at mattysconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 18:04:34 2011 From: michael at mattysconsulting.com (Michael Mattys) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 19:04:34 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4E9B2FAC.7020509@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cc8c3a$e2fa2d60$a8ee8820$@mattysconsulting.com> <000a01cc8c4c$4da8c110$e8fa4330$@mattysconsulting.com> <4744E1132B6A476C97AEFBA07370EBC0@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <000b01cc8c57$f93c3e20$ebb4ba60$@mattysconsulting.com> Thanks, Jim We are currently working on MS Dynamics CRM which will benefit greatly from these new concepts in SQL 2012. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 6:37 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Absolutely excellent articles Michael...great research and a great read. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 2:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" To explore this further see the following: http://www.xzilla.net/blog/2010/Mar/Actually,-the-Relational-Model-doesnt-sc ale.html and the article's link, too http://www.julianbrowne.com/article/viewer/brewers-cap-theorem Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Mattys Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:36 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" I see NOSQL databases as a way to model the world, much like virtual worlds. These aren't just business relationships anymore, but decision models expanded into cause-and-effect projections upon all phases of existence put into the hands of people with radically different views of each virtual world. They'll definitely enhance the ability to gauge strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Michael R Mattys Mattys Consulting, LLC www.mattysconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" Martin, LOL. I read it. Every time I read any of this stuff it says the same thing. SQL databases do one thing, NOSQL databases do something entirely different. I had to laugh. All the analysts in that article are saying that SQL is dead, then they immediately say that the data in SQL databases and the job SQL databases do are entirely different from NOSQL. They keep talking about email and pictures and documents and internet pages and... Documents! And searching through... Emails! And getting information out of... Documents! And then the next one says that SQL could just quietly go away and never be missed... And then they talk about scaling up to tens of thousands of servers... I have a good solution in my office. Where exactly do I put those tens of thousands of servers? DIS, my client in Connecticut runs a call center. They are in the process of building a server expressly for handling relational data. They have 50 employees and a small office. Where are they going to put these tens of thousands of server blades? And what are they going to do with them if they had them? There are about a billion companies out there, and by every estimate I have ever seen 95% of all companies are under 50 people. And they need business databases. Relational databases. Which does not mean that they have no use for NOSLQ, simply that the need for SQL doesn't look to me like it is going away next week. We have been talking for a long time about getting rid of paper entirely. Maybe this is it, maybe NoSQL is the start of the paperless office. Everything stored electronically. That would be a good thing. Even so I still have books to keep. GM still has a supply chain to track. DIS still has a call center to run. These do not appear (to me) to map nicely into NOSQL. Notice that in this entire thread on this list, *nobody* has spoken up and discussed how they are, as we speak, writing a call center app in NOSQL, or a book keeping app, or a manufacturing app, or anything at all in fact. So far nobody has spoken up at all except for Jim, who said he was (peripherally from the sounds of it) involved in installing a NOSQL app to track documents for a government entity. And Hans who says he can tell us all about what NOSQL does but so far hasn't done so. Now I understand that this is an SQL list, but you would think that if NOSQL was storming the gates of SQL land someone on this list would be chattering about all the cool things they are doing with it. I can tell you that I have engineered a SQL system that handles what I do with aplomb. Yes, it took a lot of hardware (lol, a single server / OS) and it took a lot of software but it sure looks like it took a miniscule amount compared to what NOSQL seems to expect me to need. I will continue to watch NOSQL unfold and I expect that I will find uses for it as it gets to the point where any tom, dick and developer can install / use it. In the meantime I bill thousands a month in SQL and... hm... zero in NoSQL. I'm thinking I will keep my day job. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 2:41 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to > solve the same problem set as SQL. I have spent several hours now > reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you > discuss what kinds of problems you are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their >> history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 19:31:15 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 17:31:15 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: That article starts by making valid observations and ends reading like a sensationalist PR piece promoting a specific product. I would have expected more from a publisher which is "serving chief information officers and other IT leaders". - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 11:41 AM, Martin Reid wrote: > Had to read up on this as never heard of it. > http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS > > I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" > > I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as > SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. > > Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you > are solving with NOSQL. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >> >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 20:38:20 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:38:20 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" In-Reply-To: References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE17A@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4E9B870C.2010105@colbyconsulting.com> Thank you for saying that. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 8:31 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > That article starts by making valid observations and ends reading like a sensationalist PR piece promoting a specific product. I would have expected more from a publisher which is "serving chief information officers and other IT leaders". > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-16, at 11:41 AM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Had to read up on this as never heard of it. >> http://m.cio.com/article/690262/NoSQL_is_Eclipsing_the_Old_Time_RDBMS >> >> I am running a four instance cluster with just over 2 million documents. SQL ser 2008 r2. We use 30000 users and SQL server seems fine. >> >> Martin >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ________________________________ >> From: jwcolby >> Sent: 16/10/2011 13:30 >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] OK, I give up - was "John needs NoSQL" >> >> I can Google, and I do. What I see is that they are not intended to solve the same problem set as >> SQL. I have spent several hours now reading articles on what they do. >> >> Are you saying that you actually use NOSQL? If so why don't you discuss what kinds of problems you >> are solving with NOSQL. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/16/2011 2:08 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> If you have any questions as to what NoSQL databases are, their history and/or what problems they are trying to solve, please do ask. I will be happy to explain. >>> >>> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 20:40:05 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:40:05 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9B8775.1090107@colbyconsulting.com> 6. What kind of data is being modeled / stored / analyzed. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 4:57 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These > figures would be: > > 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience > with. > 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? > 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. > 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. > 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. > > Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the > controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > Hi John, > > I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know > what your business requirements are better than anyone else. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >>>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even > thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me > *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or > manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. >> >> To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search > documents*. >> >>>> It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it > nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is > nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't > apply to me! >> >> I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he > said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a > solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand > relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is > large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or > documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. >> >> I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, > each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / > address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the > people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with > first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other > fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on > and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have > indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes > (fields) in the attribute table. >> >> As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month > and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That > software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same > fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is > the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move > information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses > Foxpro to process it. >> >> How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? >> >> I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. > Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 > attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I > do. >> >> Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am > reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny > attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those > attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to > search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that > stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other > tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field > being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email > address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my > data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" > clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 > table pairs to select records based on commonality. >> >> How does this sound like NoSQL? >> >> Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more > time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not > blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this > technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who > design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people > say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL > is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an > entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire > new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out > across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the > results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. >> >> I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of > documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. >> >> I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a > technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and > search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire > database. >> >> *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* >> >> I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. > What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP > process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive > SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am > *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL > language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. >> >> And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there > is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable > technology applies to me. >> >> IOW, LMTFA!!! >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >>> >>> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, > cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't > apply to you. :) >>> >>> - Hans >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >>> >>>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at > people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and > will quit haranguing me? ;) >>>> >>>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>>> >>>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. > Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long > processes are under a minute or two. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would > instantly quit this nonsense. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 22:14:05 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:14:05 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure if this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always practical unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/ore system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 1:57 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Hans: > > Maybe you can give the facts and figures on a NOSQL implementation. These > figures would be: > > 1. The size and resources of the equipment/hardware you have experience > with. > 2. How much data is being handled with this equipment? > 3. Some basic guesstimates of the costs of this implementation. > 4. How successful is NoSQL in retrieving complex data requests. > 5. Anything thing else that you would think is relevant. > > Once the facts and figures could be put together, it would put an end to the > controversy, which at the moment is just hearsay. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > Hans-Christian Andersen > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:35 PM > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead > > > Hi John, > > I don't think any of us had the intention to offend you. Obviously you know > what your business requirements are better than anyone else. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-15, at 6:30 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >>>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >> >> I don't see this anywhere. Point me to anywhere that any company is even > thinking about NoSQL to run their *business* side of the house. Show me > *anything* where *anyone* is developing book keeping or banking or > manufacturing kind of databases using NoSQL. >> >> To be more accurate, NOSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > expecting rapid growth in *document storage*, and needing to *search > documents*. >> >>>> It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't apply to you. :) >> >> I did not say "it" (NOSQL) was nonsense, I have been saying that it it > nonsense to keep trying to fit that square peg in this round hole. It is > nonsense to keep telling me I need it when (as you are saying) it doesn't > apply to me! >> >> I read an article by one of the founders of (I believe) Hadoop. What he > said was that NOSQL was *NOT* a replacement for SQL based languages, but a > solution for places where SQL databases don't fit. The things I do demand > relational data. Relationships are the core of my business. My data is > large, but they are not large individual chunks (paragraphs or pages or > documents) but lots of records with lots of attributes. >> >> I have 600 million records in about 30 table pairs. The tables are pairs, > each table related to one other with a pk/fk. One table contains name / > address / hash fields and a PK. The other table has attributes about the > people in that first table. I have (in 15 tables) 300 million records with > first name, last name, addr1, city, state, zip, plus a handful of other > fields discussing the validity of the address itself. I have to index on > and pull addresses based on specific attributes of those addresses. I have > indexes on and pull data about those people records based on attributes > (fields) in the attribute table. >> >> As an example I have to pull those 300 million addresses out every month > and run them through a third party program to track people moving. That > software requires the name / address fields and hands me back those same > fields plus a bunch more that discuss the validity of those addresses (is > the address still valid? Is the address complete?) as well as move > information. That third party program requires the data in CSV and uses > Foxpro to process it. >> >> How in the world does this sound like Hadoop? >> >> I think my friend Jim just has some misconceptions about what my data is. > Given how much I have discussed my "database from hell" with its 600 > attribute fields I am a little puzzled how he could not understand what I > do. >> >> Or perhaps he (or I) misunderstands what NoSQL is. From what I am > reading, NoSQL is not about handling relational data or hundreds of tiny > attributes (fields) of an object and selecting records based on those > attributes. NoSQL (AFAIU) is about storing documents and allowing you to > search those documents. I don't have a single field in all of my data that > stores more than about 80 characters. I have tables, related to other > tables, each of which may have literally hundreds of fields, each field > being anywhere from one character (yes / no) to 60 characters (email > address). In fact the email address is the single biggest field in all of my > data. I have to select small (a few million) record sets based on "where" > clauses examining those fields. I have to join the information in these 15 > table pairs to select records based on commonality. >> >> How does this sound like NoSQL? >> >> Every time my friend Jim comes at me with "you need NoSQL" I spend more > time trying to see what it is about NOSQL that fits my situation. I am not > blithely ignoring him. I have spent hours now reading stuff about this > technology, and every time I keep reading stuff by the very people who > design NoSQL saying that *it is not a replacement for SQL*. These people > say that NOSQL does not do SQL kind of stuff easily. These people say NOSQL > is about spreading the load of searching millions of *documents* across an > entire server farm. These people are saying that it tough (requires entire > new languages, technology and knowledge base) to get the data split out > across that server farm and to reassemble the search results *but* that the > results are worth it *when* you are dealing with billions of *documents*. >> >> I am a one man show. I don't own a server farm. I don't have billions of > documents and I am not going to acquire billions of documents. >> >> I am just tired of being told how my situation is going to be helped by a > technology specifically and intentionally designed to handle the storage and > search of *documents*, when I don't have a single document in my entire > database. >> >> *THIS IS GETTING OLD!!!* >> >> I am thrilled that NoSQL exists and that it helps those that it helps. > What I am *not* seeing is a single case study where they are taking an SAP > process and doing it on NoSQL. Flattening 10 thousand tables in a massive > SQL based data processing system and making it run on NoSQL. What I am > *not* seeing is anyone claiming that in 5 (or even 30) years the SQL > language will cease to exist because of NoSQL. >> >> And what I am not thrilled about is a constant "you need NOSQL" when there > is never any explanation about how this very cool but not applicable > technology applies to me. >> >> IOW, LMTFA!!! >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/15/2011 2:47 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> To be more accurate, NoSQL is intended to be a solution for companies > that are expecting rapid growth and cannot rely on vertical scaling alone in > order to keep up with demands on resources. >>> >>> Trust me, John, if you are in a situation like this, no amount of memory, > cpu or compression can save you. It's not nonsense, just because it doesn't > apply to you. :) >>> >>> - Hans >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2011-10-14, at 3:37 PM, jwcolby wrote: >>> >>>> LOL. And maybe you will eventually discover that NoSQL is targeted at > people with a a million blade servers / million dollars in a data center and > will quit haranguing me? ;) >>>> >>>> I see NO NOSQL in my future. >>>> >>>> I have already solved my issues the same way that these guys did. > Jillions of cores and 64 gigabytes of RAM, and compression. My hour long > processes are under a minute or two. >>>> >>>> It would be interesting to actually show you what I do Jim. You would > instantly quit this nonsense. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 22:40:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:40:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> Message-ID: <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Hans, Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > > Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. > > Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. > > What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. > > We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure i! > f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. > > We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always prac ti! > cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. > > However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/o re! > system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. > > Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. > > What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... > > Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. > > > - Hans From hans.andersen at phulse.com Sun Oct 16 23:03:05 2011 From: hans.andersen at phulse.com (Hans-Christian Andersen) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 21:03:05 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Ya, I understand what you mean. Hadoop could very well be the tool to suit that problem. Sometimes its hard to these things put into words, given how much has been changing over the last decade - the huge amount of growth in online usage, the pervasiveness of the internet, the types of applications we now use and the scale of data that comes with it. It even took me a while to get my head around the whole concept of cloud computing at first and a lot of that has to do with that these concepts are still changing and maturing, so I hope that I made things a bit clearer, although, I was just looking up online for some information that could perhaps explain it a bit better and I think this guy (Mike Olsen) does a better job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xnYBVqLws Worth a watch, even if just for the first half of the video. One thing is for sure, though. We are currently in a state of a massive fundamental change in computing from the hardware in the box on your desk being the computer to now the network being a fundamental part of your computer and that has caused a rethink of traditional concepts and assumptions. - Hans On 2011-10-16, at 8:40 PM, jwcolby wrote: > Hans, > > Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. > > Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >> >> >> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. >> >> Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. >> >> What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. >> >> We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not sure > i! >> f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. >> >> We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always prac > ti! >> cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. >> >> However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and/o > re! >> system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. >> >> Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. >> >> What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... >> >> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. >> >> >> - Hans > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Oct 16 23:50:47 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:50:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead In-Reply-To: References: <58BC130D17B54BA1AE59BE7CF69BC3D9@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4E981DAA.7080404@colbyconsulting.com> <4E98B9AD.3060303@colbyconsulting.com> <79C64007-8C18-4D0A-8AD4-A1107F0E6E87@phulse.com> <4E998ADE.30304@colbyconsulting.com> <81AC2C2D-157E-40EF-A587-A62A2CF424DC@phulse.com> <4E9BA3AF.9030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4E9BB427.8060801@colbyconsulting.com> Great video! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/17/2011 12:03 AM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: > > Hi John, > > Ya, I understand what you mean. Hadoop could very well be the tool to suit that problem. > > Sometimes its hard to these things put into words, given how much has been changing over the last decade - the huge amount of growth in online usage, the pervasiveness of the internet, the types of applications we now use and the scale of data that comes with it. It even took me a while to get my head around the whole concept of cloud computing at first and a lot of that has to do with that these concepts are still changing and maturing, so I hope that I made things a bit clearer, although, I was just looking up online for some information that could perhaps explain it a bit better and I think this guy (Mike Olsen) does a better job. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xnYBVqLws > > Worth a watch, even if just for the first half of the video. > > One thing is for sure, though. We are currently in a state of a massive fundamental change in computing from the hardware in the box on your desk being the computer to now the network being a fundamental part of your computer and that has caused a rethink of traditional concepts and assumptions. > > - Hans > > > On 2011-10-16, at 8:40 PM, jwcolby wrote: > >> Hans, >> >> Good info, realistic point of view, and observations re practicality and problems solved. >> >> Having listened closely to this discussion (I do pay attention) I am thinking about how this might solve a problem of my call center client. They need a relational database for the call center side of things but they are also drowning in documents. IOW they have to obtain and store medical records, legal documents, IRS documents, claim reports, private investigation reports and so forth, all tied to claims in the claim system. Each claim generates an entire box of documents. They currently use a third party system which scans everything into electronic form but then ??? It is kept in something like pdf I think. Cut to a dvd and sent off to Iron Mountain for permanent storage. This certainly sounds like it could benefit them in terms of being able to store and search these documents. We have never even tried to solve that side using an SQL database because it just doesn't fit. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Hans-Christian Andersen wrote: >>> >>> >>> Ya, sure. I think I might have mentioned a few details about our current implementation and what problems we are solving with it already. >>> >>> Essentially, our fundamental issue is that, in any system we deploy, we always have to factor in redundancy. Having a single, powerful server with backups isn't good enough. Any amount of downtime costs us money and we have bumped into many problems trying to implement old technology that were never designed to solve such problems of scale and redundancy. They often inherently break in weird ways. >>> >>> What caused us to look into this in the first place was that we needed a redundant and reliable distributed file system/storage. We've played around with a few different solutions to distributed filesystems, but found each one to be lacking in some critical respect (SMB, NFS, DFS, glusterfs, etc). In the end, we decided to take a step back and take a more holistic approach, which could be used to solve more problems than just file storage. So we looked into NoSQL and decided on Cassandra in the end. >>> >>> We are running Cassandra under 3 Xen VMs on 3 different Dell PowerEdge servers (one of which is offsite in another country). The servers themselves come with Intel Xeon E5640 processors for a total of 16 cores and 24G memory. However, our Cassandra VMs use less than that: only 1 core is dedicated to the VM and 2G or memory allocated to the VM. We've given each Cassandra node roughly 500G of disk space (in a RAID 5 configuration). In terms of data being handled, we are currently using about 25% of our total capacity, but bear in mind that some data is being duplicated across some of our nodes due to our chosen partitioning scheme. Cost of implementation is a hard one to answer, since they are being run as virtual machines on host servers, which also host other virtual machines, but the load is pretty negligible compare to any other VMs we run (I even run a Cassandra database on my development laptop and its still quite fast). Our load average rarely goes above 0.2 (not su re >> i! >>> f this is a concept Windows admins would understand though, its a Unix thing) and CPU usage generally averages out to around 5% or lower, which is pretty impressive, given that Cassandra is written in Java. >>> >>> We do not currently make use of Cassandra for anything more than a key-value store. Currently we use our Cassandra setup to store and serve everything from images to videos to documents and, for that, it works great and really, really fast. We haven't yet delved into the realm of map reduce and I'm taking more of a level-headed approach to it. NoSQL does not replace our need for a RDBMS, nor would I ever advocate that NoSQL is a natural alternative to a traditional database anymore than that a train is an alternative to a car. It depends entirely on your product and what problems you are trying to solve. There are instances where your data could more effectively exist on a RDBMS, but if your ultimate requirement is something very scalable, its possible to alter your data model and rethink your approach to your application so that you can use NoSQL exclusively. Such a migration, however, does come at a significant cost in terms of technical capital, so it's not always pr ac >> ti! >>> cal unless you are doing it from scratch and you obviously need to know the pros and cons, but that goes without saying. >>> >>> However, its worth just mentioning that NoSQL is more a solution to problems of scaling and having lots of data, where RDBMSs fundamentally have issues, so it should be no surprise that it is popular for highly clustered environments (i.e. super computers) and web companies and not necessarily in enterprise solutions as much. I often encounter a certain hostility towards NoSQL when mentioned in the company of DB admins and I can understand to a degree why, since it challenges a certain orthodoxy in database design that goes back decades. But, I tend to find that they are looking at it from a completely different perspective and don't quite understand what problem NoSQL databases are trying to solve and that NoSQL isn't trying to invalidate traditional database (I really hate it when articles try to portray it that way). NoSQL is what it is: a database that attempts to trim all the unnecessary layers of complexity that RDBMSs have and impose on your application design and /o >> re! >>> system architecture, so that it in the end can be scalable, flexible, very fast and simple to use. If this is not what you need, then it is not what you want, but, for many web companies out there, it is. >>> >>> Which goes back to what I've said previously. A lot of companies/startups are looking at NoSQL precisely because they want something which will scale easily, should they suddenly become massively successful and their site traffic increase dramatically and suddenly reach some sort of limit of the database and hardware. Throwing better hardware at the problem is only going to get you so far and, even if it could, a live migration of data in a RDBMS is never easy. With Cassandra, for example, you can add and remove nodes on the fly by the stroke of a few CLI commands. I've never seen anything that simple in a traditional database, but please correct me if I am wrong. >>> >>> What makes me curious is how traditional database vendors are going to marry NoSQL concepts into their existing products. Microsoft looks to be sensible (what with adopting Hadoop now) and I have no doubt they will succeed. Oracle, on the other hand... >>> >>> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. >>> >>> >>> - Hans >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Oct 17 05:12:58 2011 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:12:58 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Microsoft is moving ahead Message-ID: Hi Hans Yes, it certainly did. My common sense have tried to cut through the vast amount of hype but with limited success. This helped my a lot. Thanks. /gustav >>> hans.andersen at phulse.com 17-10-2011 05:14 >>> Anyways, I hope that answers some questions. From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Tue Oct 18 12:49:59 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:49:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Oct 18 13:27:18 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:27:18 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> References: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> Message-ID: Hi Alan: It is hard to say Alan as there has recently been a great surge in the computer world in the last few months. Though you can not become an expert in any of the fields listed below, in the time span alloted, it would be wise to at least have a passing understanding of these trends: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/look-out-the-10-rising-tech-trends-of -2012/9470?tag=nl.e101 You should play to your strengths; a depth of knowledge, expreience, good work ethics and communication skills (this is a talent you already have; an excellent speaking voice...and that is a definite plus....training, sales, presentations etc.) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 14:00:15 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 20:00:15 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Big market for SharePoint Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Jim Lawrence Sent: 18/10/2011 19:28 To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Hi Alan: It is hard to say Alan as there has recently been a great surge in the computer world in the last few months. Though you can not become an expert in any of the fields listed below, in the time span alloted, it would be wise to at least have a passing understanding of these trends: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/look-out-the-10-rising-tech-trends-of -2012/9470?tag=nl.e101 You should play to your strengths; a depth of knowledge, expreience, good work ethics and communication skills (this is a talent you already have; an excellent speaking voice...and that is a definite plus....training, sales, presentations etc.) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 14:49:28 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:49:28 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE184@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 15:49:02 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:49:02 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE186@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Tue Oct 18 16:10:53 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 22:10:53 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE188@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc Oh and it all runs on SQL server. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Martin Reid Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin > > > > I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working > (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert > will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have > been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response > (to > an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to > that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any > ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me > off > list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I > attempt to get back in the game. > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > Chasity: (that is her name .) > > > > Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and > spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my > resume and a generic cover letter.) > > > > I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated > about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter > (or > specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions > that > are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is > very > frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an > individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a > remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, > or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? > > > > Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten > Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" > here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United > States) > that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to > hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database > programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! > Cold climates don't bother me. > > > > Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > Huntsville, Alabama > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca Tue Oct 18 16:30:12 2011 From: jlawrenc1 at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:30:12 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path In-Reply-To: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> References: <004501cc8dbe$5b16df30$11449d90$@net> Message-ID: <7566322E37B04541B842DF2FC0FF18E6@creativesystemdesigns.com> I do not know whether this pertains to you but just saw this in the mail bin: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/retirement-planning/article/5-hot-jobs-for-retire es-health-care/6315615/ Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:50 AM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path I'm starting to get desperate, so I might as well ask you folks. (After all, what are friends for?) I'm trying to get reemployed and back in the job market. I'm also working (very hard) on obtaining a SQL Server certification as having such a cert will make me more marketable - especially in the database field. I have been in contact with a major job search web site. I received a response (to an initial inquiry) from one of their people today. I have responded to that initial contact as follows. Please read this. If any of you have any ideas (or "leads") that might be helpful, please feel free to contact me off list. I'm trying to be very flexible and thinking "outside the box" as I attempt to get back in the game. Alan C. Lawhon Chasity: (that is her name .) Thanks for responding to my inquiry. I will follow up on your advice and spend time on your site. (I suppose it would be a good idea to post my resume and a generic cover letter.) I have a general type question which I hope you can answer. I intimated about this in my earlier post, but I wonder if your firm has a recruiter (or specialist) who concentrates on attempting to place people in positions that are difficult to staff? I'm thinking a job that one of your clients is very frustrated with since they are having perpetual difficulty finding an individual willing to take the job possibly because the job is located on a remote island in the middle of an ocean, the job requires a lot of travel, or it's a job that married folks (with a family) just would not consider? Does [job search site] have a job category entitled: "Jobs Off The Beaten Path" or "Jobs Most People Do Not Want"? (I'm thinking "outside the box" here.) If there is a job (especially outside the continental United States) that you've been unable to staff for a client, I would certainly like to hear about it. This is off the wall, but if Santa Claus needed a database programmer to work with him up there at the North Pole, I could do that! Cold climates don't bother me. Thanking you for your time and attention to this inquiry, I am Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Oct 19 03:04:25 2011 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:04:25 +0200 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) Message-ID: Hi Martin Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. It must be out there somewhere, but where? /gustav >>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10 >>> http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc Oh and it all runs on SQL server. Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Martin Reid Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Arthur Fuller Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. A. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > Big market for SharePoint > > Martin From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 19 06:07:53 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:07:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9EAF89.4030005@colbyconsulting.com> Boy isn't that true. After all this time I have no idea why I would use Sharepoint other than because Microsoft wants me too. In general I don't respond well to reasons like "Microsoft wants me to". John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/19/2011 4:04 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Martin > > Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. > But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". > > I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". > > The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. > It must be out there somewhere, but where? > > /gustav > > >>>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10>>> > http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 > > Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc > > Oh and it all runs on SQL server. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Martin Reid > Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Arthur Fuller > Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn > this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are > just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do > myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Big market for SharePoint >> >> Martin > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DBCfour at aol.com Wed Oct 19 06:23:26 2011 From: DBCfour at aol.com (DBCfour at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) Message-ID: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're using it. _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) In a message dated 10/19/2011 7:08:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com writes: Boy isn't that true. After all this time I have no idea why I would use Sharepoint other than because Microsoft wants me too. In general I don't respond well to reasons like "Microsoft wants me to". John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/19/2011 4:04 AM, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Martin > > Thanks for the link. A bit outdated though, as it refers to SP2007. SP2010 has been out for a while. > But even that nice MOSS lady mentions that she is not able to (really) tell what SharePoint is. And I don't think the article (indeed not if you start perusing the zillions of comments) will "get me the idea". > > I have looked high and low but still haven't found the site with something like "How to get started with SharePoint and why?". > > The official MS SharePoint site it simply scary. I can't remember a site with so much marketing fuzz and so little info for people like us. > It must be out there somewhere, but where? > > /gustav > > >>>> mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk 18-10-2011 23:10>>> > http://www.mosslady.com/article/6#more-6 > > Bit simple but you will get idea. In our case we front almost every major system we have with SharePoint. Its our interface to SQL server, replacing access, its a virtual learning environment, reporting front end, office web apps, workflow, enterprise search, records management, intregrated with office etc etc > > Oh and it all runs on SQL server. > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Martin Reid > Sent: 18/10/2011 21:49 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Yip but some poor sod needs to look after those big databases! > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: Arthur Fuller > Sent: 18/10/2011 20:55 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Off The Beaten Path > > Perhaps you could point me to some articles describing why I should learn > this, because so far I have failed to see its point. Seems to me they are > just stuffing everything into a database, which I could just as simply do > myself. But I've been wrong before, so this wouldn't come as big news. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> Big market for SharePoint >> >> Martin > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ssharkins at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 06:53:49 2011 From: ssharkins at gmail.com (Susan Harkins) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:53:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. Susan H. > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're > using it. > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 19 07:01:40 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:01:40 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go away. Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jm.hwsn at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 08:52:16 2011 From: jm.hwsn at gmail.com (jm.hwsn) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 08:52:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com> <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins> Message-ID: <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> In another life... before I landed a contract for 100% Access 2007 work, I worked extensively in SharePoint. I've seen it used primarily for document storage. Similar to a shared network drive, the difference is that anyone that has access to the site can use the documents. It does not matter where the user is located. I've seen it used as a data repository for an Access database. Each user had a local copy of the FE and regardless of location (next room or across the country) the Access FE tapped into the repository with any glitches. In this case the primary user was down the hall, however, the client was two states away. Both could access the data and modify it at the same time without issues. The company I worked for used it primarily Contract and / or proposal management. In one case there was 84 sub-contractors for one contract. These companies were all over the U.S. From Alaska and Hawaii to Washington D.C. During the proposal stage each sub-contractor could modify their part of the proposal and review changes made by the others and/or make comments on the changes. After the contract was in place, the site was used to manage the sub-contractors and ensure each company was able to get work. Invoices, etc. was passed from sub-contractor to prime without problems. Each sub-contractor had access to a site designated for them and to read-only to the main site. They could not "see" the sites for the other companies. Granted it was expensive because of the CALs required. I think it is a good tool, but it can get expensive. Once the site is up and configured, it's easy to maintain. It's all run in SQL Server. Ideally, it should be run on at a minimum of two servers. Web-server and data server. >From my foggy memory of a few years ago. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan Harkins Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:54 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. Susan H. > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how they're > using it. > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/_ > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effectively/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 19 15:23:35 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 06:23:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: Off The Beaten Path) In-Reply-To: <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> References: <27029.5e4ce7a.3bd00d2e@aol.com>, <3AA94DA1003D43C98B1C9BEDA5BAC728@SusanHarkins>, <4e9ed612.1a84650a.24ad.ffffd14c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E9F31C7.14099.8AADF73@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Sounds like Sharepoint is an enterrpise oriented mix of Facebook and DrpoBox? -- Stuart On 19 Oct 2011 at 8:52, jm.hwsn wrote: > In another life... before I landed a contract for 100% Access 2007 > work, I worked extensively in SharePoint. > > I've seen it used primarily for document storage. Similar to a shared > network drive, the difference is that anyone that has access to the > site can use the documents. It does not matter where the user is > located. > > I've seen it used as a data repository for an Access database. Each > user had a local copy of the FE and regardless of location (next room > or across the country) the Access FE tapped into the repository with > any glitches. In this case the primary user was down the hall, > however, the client was two states away. Both could access the data > and modify it at the same time without issues. > > The company I worked for used it primarily Contract and / or proposal > management. In one case there was 84 sub-contractors for one > contract. These companies were all over the U.S. From Alaska and > Hawaii to Washington D.C. During the proposal stage each > sub-contractor could modify their part of the proposal and review > changes made by the others and/or make comments on the changes. After > the contract was in place, the site was used to manage the > sub-contractors and ensure each company was able to get work. > Invoices, etc. was passed from sub-contractor to prime without > problems. Each sub-contractor had access to a site designated for them > and to read-only to the main site. They could not "see" the sites for > the other companies. Granted it was expensive because of the CALs > required. > > I think it is a good tool, but it can get expensive. Once the site is > up and configured, it's easy to maintain. It's all run in SQL Server. > Ideally, it should be run on at a minimum of two servers. Web-server > and data server. > > From my foggy memory of a few years ago. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan > Harkins Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 6:54 AM To: Discussion > concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] SharePoint (was: > Off The Beaten Path) > > I see requests for Sharepoint experience almost as often as other > major skills now. It's not something one could learn on their own > though, so I would think most of it is learned on the job. > > Susan H. > > > > Seems to me that organizations of all sizes are using Sharepoint for > > something. Here are a couple of links explaining why and how > > they're using it. > > > > > _http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effecti > vely/_ > > > (http://www.productivityclub.com/top-20-ways-to-use-sharepoint-effecti > vely/) > > _http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348_ > > (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=174348) > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Oct 20 02:33:29 2011 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:33:29 +1100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Hi JC, I've done it but I don't do it often. IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and they have it set up in no time. YMMV. You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in tools (Plesk). Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need to drop and recreate the login. Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use Windows Authentication. Good luck Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM To: Sqlserver-Dba Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go away. Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 09:44:43 2011 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:44:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Message-ID: John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 Doug On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison < michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > Hi JC, > > I've done it but I don't do it often. > IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. > We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and > they have it set up in no time. YMMV. > You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal > and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in > tools (Plesk). > Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. > Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. > Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them > to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. > Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need > to drop and recreate the login. > Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use > Windows Authentication. > > Good luck > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM > To: Sqlserver-Dba > Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server > databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to > do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an > email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on > "how to" > but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? > > I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. > this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my > server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping > that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs > to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go > away. > > Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? > > -- > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 10:40:56 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:40:56 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: References: <4E9EBC24.8080402@colbyconsulting.com> <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB46511B72F@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA04108.3010807@colbyconsulting.com> I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > > http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > > Doug > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> Hi JC, >> >> I've done it but I don't do it often. >> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >> tools (Plesk). >> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >> to drop and recreate the login. >> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >> Windows Authentication. >> >> Good luck >> >> Michael M >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >> To: Sqlserver-Dba >> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >> "how to" >> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >> >> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >> away. >> >> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk Thu Oct 20 11:31:21 2011 From: mwp.reid at qub.ac.uk (Martin Reid) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:31:21 +0100 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> John Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? Martin Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: jwcolby Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > > http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > > Doug > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> Hi JC, >> >> I've done it but I don't do it often. >> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >> tools (Plesk). >> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >> to drop and recreate the login. >> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >> Windows Authentication. >> >> Good luck >> >> Michael M >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >> To: Sqlserver-Dba >> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >> "how to" >> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >> >> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >> away. >> >> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 11:48:19 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? I do many different things. ;) This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost tiny databases used as the data store for access front ends for my non-profit clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the web where it is 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > John > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. Using the web databases? > > Martin > > Sent from my Windows Phone > ________________________________ > From: jwcolby > Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database. What I did not > examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one > MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, but even then only > up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost > a lot more money. > > I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical > problems of using them for the future. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: >> >> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 >> >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< >> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: >> >>> Hi JC, >>> >>> I've done it but I don't do it often. >>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >>> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >>> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >>> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >>> tools (Plesk). >>> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >>> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >>> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >>> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >>> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >>> to drop and recreate the login. >>> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >>> Windows Authentication. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >>> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >>> To: Sqlserver-Dba >>> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >>> >>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >>> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >>> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >>> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >>> "how to" >>> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >>> >>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >>> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >>> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >>> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >>> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >>> away. >>> >>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Thu Oct 20 12:36:36 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:36:36 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] SQL Server Express and "AdventureWorks2008R2" Sample Database Message-ID: <000c01cc8f4e$d0df06c0$729d1440$@net> The book I am using for training and study, (i.e. "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers"), recommended that I download and install the "SQL Server Express with Tools" edition of SQL Server (which I did) along with a sample database (downloaded from the Murach web site) which accompanies the examples in their book. I have been working and training with the Murach sample database (primarily through the SQL Server Management Studio) with few (if any) problems. (So far, so good.) The Murach book occasionally directs me to SQL Server Books Online (BOL) for additional information on various topics. In reviewing and accessing Books Online, I notice frequent references (and code samples) taken from a Microsoft "codeplex" web page that references an "AdventureWorks2008R2" sample database. http://msftdbprodsamples.codeplex.com/releases/view/55926 Since BOL tends to go into greater detail on some of the topics I am studying, I thought it might be a good idea to download this "AdventureWorks2008R2" sample database on my x86 (Windows XP SP3) box. The Microsoft codeplex web site indicates that, for users running the SQL Server Express edition, the AdventureWorks2008R2 sample database needs to run under the Express (with "Advanced Services") edition of SQL Server. According to the "Installation Prerequisites for the SQL Server 2008 and 2008R2 Sample Databases" web page: http://tinyurl.com/452bydb In order to be able to successfully install the AdventureWorks2008 or AdventureWorks2008R2 (OLTP) database the following additional requirements must be met: * At least SQL Server Express with Advanced Services must be installed. Ordinary SQL Server Express will not work. You can download SQL Server 2008 Express with Advanced Services from the Microsoft Download Center . * FILESTREAM must be enabled and the SQL Full-text Filter Daemon Launcher service must be running. See below for how to configure these features. * This is the download page for downloading the "Advanced Services" edition of SQL Server Express. http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en &id=1842 Can I install (and run) two different versions (instances?) of SQL Server Express on the same physical machine without causing all kinds of conflicts and problems between the two different versions? (Will the two different versions "play good" together?) TIA. Alan C. Lawhon From rls at webedb.com Thu Oct 20 12:58:13 2011 From: rls at webedb.com (rls at webedb.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:58:13 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <3f7cc77fa8df09d1f37786bfbe3b1b75.squirrel@mail.webedb.com> I use ARVIXE.com for my hosting.? I paid about $200 for 2 years of hosting.? I get unlimited SQL and MySQL databases. The hitch is that they are Express databases.? So, I do have the 10 GB limit.? But, if I am getting that big, I should be paying for a server co-located there or dedicated to my use. I can use SSMS against the databases I create there.? I have also used SSIS to move data there from my desktop databases. ? Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:40:56 -0400 From: jwcolby To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server ???????? Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site Message-ID: <4EA04108.3010807 at colbyconsulting.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed ? I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server database.? What I did not examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost.? My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly.? I can purchase more, but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more money. ? I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. ? John W. Colby Colby Consulting ? From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Thu Oct 20 15:06:51 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:06:51 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk>, <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Any special reason for using SQL Server rather than MySQL? It is always more expensive and more complex to use the former on a hosted web platform. -- Stuart On 20 Oct 2011 at 12:48, jwcolby wrote: > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about > performance. Using the web databases? > > I do many different things. ;) > > This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost > tiny databases used as the data store for access front ends for my > non-profit clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the > web where it is 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > > John > > > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about > > performance. Using the web databases? > > > > Martin > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > ________________________________ > > From: jwcolby > > Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 > > To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server > > Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site > > > > I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server > > database. What I did not examine closely is how many databases or > > how much they cost. My current ISP only allows me one MSSQL and one > > MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase more, > > but even then only up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and > > those extra only come with package upgrades which cost a lot more > > money. > > > > I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is > > like and solve the technical problems of using them for the future. > > > > John W. Colby > > Colby Consulting > > > > Reality is what refuses to go away > > when you do not believe in it > > > > On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: > >> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: > >> > >> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&promo=550& > >> trial=25439928&tag=nl.e550 > >> > >> Doug > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< > >> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi JC, > >>> > >>> I've done it but I don't do it often. > >>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. > >>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details > >>> and they have it set up in no time. YMMV. You should be able to > >>> get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal and create a > >>> connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in tools > >>> (Plesk). Your host login should have admin privs over your > >>> database only. Name the db well as it will be sitting with many > >>> others. Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so > >>> I email them to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it > >>> back here. Got a feeling there will be issues with the user > >>> account, you may need to drop and recreate the login. Oh yeah, > >>> probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use > >>> Windows Authentication. > >>> > >>> Good luck > >>> > >>> Michael M > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > >>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of > >>> jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM To: > >>> Sqlserver-Dba Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my > >>> web site > >>> > >>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql > >>> server databases though my web account. I have never used this > >>> but I need to do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I > >>> have written an email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking > >>> them for documentation on "how to" but I am wondering if any of > >>> you guys do this? > >>> > >>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access > >>> FEs. this is all working well but the databases are running on a > >>> VM on my server at my home office which has obvious limitations. > >>> I am hoping that I can push these databases out to my web host and > >>> reconnect the FEs to those databases out on the web. That would > >>> make scaling issues go away. > >>> > >>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John W. Colby > >>> Colby Consulting > >>> > >>> Reality is what refuses to go away > >>> when you do not believe in it > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- > >>> No virus found in this message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: > >>> 10/19/11 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-SQLServer mailing list > >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 20 16:26:08 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:26:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk>, <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA07F5B.8140.1E5F511@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA091F0.20001@colbyconsulting.com> It is a DNN site which uses MSSQL. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/20/2011 4:06 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Any special reason for using SQL Server rather than MySQL? > > It is always more expensive and more complex to use the former on a hosted web platform. > From fhtapia at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 08:42:28 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:42:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site In-Reply-To: <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> References: <631CF83223105545BF43EFB52CB082956A302CE18C@EX2K7-VIRT-2.ads.qub.ac.uk> <4EA050D3.4070206@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, I'm of course assuming you will continue using your db framework for the FE's. I cannot comment if the connection handling has improved with Access '07 / 2010?, but with the ADP's in 2000 and 2003 I had to go fully unbound so I could manage my connection objects so I would not get timed out. Given you are talking over the web, this is really where it comes into play, whenever I used a bound form over the interwebs I ended up with timeouts left and right...of course ymmv and this would definitely be something to investigate. if you are programming against web databases, this is where all that dba security stuff comes into play. You would absolutely NOT want any direct access to tables, (not because of your users) but if you've read any tech news sites the anonymous and other hacker groups use sql server injection methods to obtain data etc. if you have userid's that have blanket direct access to tables then the said intruder could easily dump the entire contents of your non-profit db's (ala sony). You will absolutely want to program everything through sprocs to minimize the impact. good luck. in our environment and with our host, we simply sent the host a copy of your db backup file which they restored on their end. Our db was supporting web front ends and in one minor case a MS Access 2003 DB FE. in the end we re-wrote it and re-deployed the application via the web and many of the easy features of Access have been lost forever to these users, but it was a business decision not to invest so much time in deploying Access FE's that could not easily be updated and suffered windows updates/office service pack hell. -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:48 AM, jwcolby wrote: > > Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. > Using the web databases? > > I do many different things. ;) > > This is not about my monster sql server, but rather about some almost tiny > databases used as the data store for access front ends for my non-profit > clients. It gets the data off of my servers and out to the web where it is > 1) Always available and 2) faster data pipe. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/20/2011 12:31 PM, Martin Reid wrote: > >> John >> >> Given the huge amounts if data your moving about what about performance. >> Using the web databases? >> >> Martin >> >> Sent from my Windows Phone >> ______________________________**__ >> From: jwcolby >> Sent: 20/10/2011 16:42 >> To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server >> Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >> >> I selected my Web host specifically to allow me to have a sql server >> database. What I did not >> examine closely is how many databases or how much they cost. My current >> ISP only allows me one >> MSSQL and one MySQL database which is really pretty silly. I can purchase >> more, but even then only >> up to 3 maximum which is even more silly, and those extra only come with >> package upgrades which cost >> a lot more money. >> >> I still want to figure this out just to see what the performance is like >> and solve the technical >> problems of using them for the future. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/20/2011 10:44 AM, Doug Steele wrote: >> >>> John, I just got this link from ZDNet - it might interest you: >>> >>> http://whitepapers.zdnet.com/**abstract.aspx?docid=3422473&** >>> promo=550&trial=25439928&tag=**nl.e550 >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Michael Maddison< >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au> wrote: >>> >>> Hi JC, >>>> >>>> I've done it but I don't do it often. >>>> IIRC Our host requires us to upload a backup of the db. >>>> We let them know via email the db is ready, including user details and >>>> they have it set up in no time. YMMV. >>>> You should be able to get the IP via your Plesk (or similar) terminal >>>> and create a connection from Enterprise manager or use the built in >>>> tools (Plesk). >>>> Your host login should have admin privs over your database only. >>>> Name the db well as it will be sitting with many others. >>>> Never really got the backup tools to work with my Host so I email them >>>> to drop a backup into a folder I created and I ftp it back here. >>>> Got a feeling there will be issues with the user account, you may need >>>> to drop and recreate the login. >>>> Oh yeah, probably doesn't need to be said but I don't think you can use >>>> Windows Authentication. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> Michael M >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: dba-sqlserver-bounces@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces@**databaseadvisors.com] >>>> On Behalf Of jwcolby >>>> Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:02 PM >>>> To: Sqlserver-Dba >>>> Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Using SQL Server through my web site >>>> >>>> I buy a web hosting plan where I have the ability to build sql server >>>> databases though my web account. I have never used this but I need to >>>> do so now. I haven't a clue how to get started. I have written an >>>> email to the hosting company (PowerDNN) asking them for documentation on >>>> "how to" >>>> but I am wondering if any of you guys do this? >>>> >>>> I have built a bunch of SQL Server back end databases for Access FEs. >>>> this is all working well but the databases are running on a VM on my >>>> server at my home office which has obvious limitations. I am hoping >>>> that I can push these databases out to my web host and reconnect the FEs >>>> to those databases out on the web. That would make scaling issues go >>>> away. >>>> >>>> Is anyone doing this? Any tricks / tips / cautions etc? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> No virus found in this message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 1522/3962 - Release Date: 10/19/11 >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Fri Oct 21 09:57:01 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:57:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? Message-ID: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational database model" debate. http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds Alan C. Lawhon From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Oct 21 11:59:02 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:59:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> Message-ID: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And they have me. That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this buzz word stuff. Check this out. http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html Notice the Employment size table John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational database model" > debate. > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Oct 21 18:39:26 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:39:26 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net>, <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA202AE.18011.7CEF780@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Agree 100% I am the IT Department for quite a few of my clients. Quite a few others have a reasonably savvy employee who "looks after the network" as *part* of their job. I do a fair bit of "handholding" for them. A few of the larger ones have 1 - 2 person IT Departments who call on me when they have a problem they can't fix. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Fri Oct 21 18:54:08 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:54:08 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net>, <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Those are interesting stats which certainly show where the opportunities lie for consultant/developers such as ourselves. 78% of "firms" have no employees. Presumably, these are either accounting entities or people like ourselves. Of those who have employees ( i.e. real world "businesses": 72% have less than 20 employees 98% have less then 100 employees. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Oct 21 20:08:56 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop, and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? In-Reply-To: <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <001f01cc9001$b03df800$10b9e800$@net> <4EA1A4D6.1040705@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA20620.32105.7DC6DD8@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: I guess the firms with no employees extend to family businesses. I was truly surprised by how many companies fail within that range. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 4:54 PM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Big Data, Hadoop,and NoSQL: Relational Model Not Dead Yet? Those are interesting stats which certainly show where the opportunities lie for consultant/developers such as ourselves. 78% of "firms" have no employees. Presumably, these are either accounting entities or people like ourselves. Of those who have employees ( i.e. real world "businesses": 72% have less than 20 employees 98% have less then 100 employees. -- Stuart On 21 Oct 2011 at 12:59, jwcolby wrote: > And of course we have to ask where this leaves the small company. > Notice all of the buzz words relating to IT departments. My client > DIS has 50 employees, and they have a guy who maintains the machines > and a VP over the call center who does much of the IT processing. And > they have me. > > That is not an IT department which can do any (never mind all) of this > buzz word stuff. > > Check this out. > > http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html > > Notice the Employment size table > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/21/2011 10:57 AM, Alan Lawhon wrote: > > Here's more gas to pour on this NoSQL "end of the relational > > database model" debate. > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3wvflds > > > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-SQLServer mailing list > > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Mon Oct 24 00:33:48 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:33:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] I Finally Figured Out A Use For The Modulo Function Message-ID: <000c01cc920e$81bd8360$85388a20$@net> Use integer arithmetic with the modulo function to determine if an integer is a prime number - of course!! (I almost feel like a programmer again.) J))) Alan C. Lawhon -- -- Figure out how to convert this script to a function and pass the prime number -- candidate in as a parameter. -- USE AP GO DECLARE @Prime_Number_Candidate AS int, @Y AS int, @Quotient AS int, @Remainder AS int SET @Prime_Number_Candidate = 29 -- -- Next two IF statements prevent a division by zero run-time error if -- @Prime_Number_Candidate just happens to be set to one. -- IF (@Prime_Number_Candidate = 1) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' IF (@Prime_Number_Candidate = 1) RETURN -- SET @Y = @Prime_Number_Candidate - 1 SET @Quotient = @Prime_Number_Candidate/@Y SET @Remainder = @Prime_Number_Candidate%@Y -- WHILE @Y > 1 BEGIN SET @Quotient = @Prime_Number_Candidate/@Y SET @Remainder = @Prime_Number_Candidate%@Y IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT @Prime_Number_Candidate AS Prime_Number_Candidate, @Y AS Prime_Candidate_Minus_1, @Quotient AS Quotient, @Remainder AS Remainder IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is NOT a prime number.' IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is evenly divisible by ' + CONVERT(varchar, @Y) + '.' IF (@Quotient > 1 AND @Remainder = 0) RETURN SET @Y = (@Y -1) END -- IF (@Y = 1) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' IF (@Y = 1) RETURN From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Oct 24 21:32:47 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:32:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] DRAM errors and ECC Message-ID: <4EA61FCF.10203@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 06:07:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:07:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines Message-ID: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. I did get all the VMs back, but this brought me to the question of how the pros migrate machines from server to server. My SQL Server (Azul) has Windows 2008 with Hyper-V installed and I am wondering how to cause a VM to be kept synced on two servers so that it can just fire up and go when the usual VM server has to be brought down. Hyper-V has an "export / import" but that takes a loooong time to perform. Is anyone out there involved in this stuff and do you have any answers to this problem? I would love to be able to just shut the machine down on one server and bring it up on the other. My impression is that it is possible to migrate without even shutting down the VM. How is this magic done? -- John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From fuller.artful at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 06:13:36 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:13:36 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with Sun VirtualBox. A. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that > machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I > store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which > survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) > Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was > sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 06:26:24 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:26:24 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA69CE0.5060709@colbyconsulting.com> > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file from one server to another The short answer is no. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 7:13 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file > from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with > Sun VirtualBox. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 07:51:51 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 05:51:51 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file > from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with > Sun VirtualBox. > > A. > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 08:39:37 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:39:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > >> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >> Sun VirtualBox. >> >> A. >> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >> >>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 10:00:53 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:00:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA6CF25.1030809@colbyconsulting.com> I have to say that Microsoft's VM system is just unfriendly. I understand that this stuff is complicated but that is all the more reason for Microsoft to spend the time to make it easier. 1) I have no idea the "why" behind this stuff but you cannot simply select the xml file and "mount" a VM. 2) If you "export" a vm then it can be imported. 3) AFAICT you cannot export a vm while it is running. The export menu item simply isn't there. 4) The export fails to a share on another machine on the directory. 5) The accepted fix is to add "machine" to the objects that the share allows and then select the source machine. 6) "Machine" is not a selection (on my machine) so I can't do that. 7) Even for people who are able to and try that, it only works some of the time. 8) When it fails it gives a generic "means nothing except it didn't work" error message. 9) There is no "backup", you have to "register" Hyper-V with the backup service / role. 10) Doing that requires a somewhat extensive manual modification to the registry. 11) Even if you can, the backup process is almost impossible to make happen unless you are backing up to identical machines. Two hours later I am no closer to getting a real automated backup happening of my virtual machines. I am now copying the files themselves. As I have always done in the past, because I ran into this same brick wall every time. :( 12) Having done that I cannot simply mount it on the machine I am copying it to. I have to manually create the machine on that destination machine and start it. Can you say "Frankenstein monster"? VMS are just way cool technology. Until you have to maintain them. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it >>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>> >>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>> >>>> From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 10:53:21 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:53:21 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: > No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >> >>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>> Sun VirtualBox. >>> >>> A. >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>> >>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 11:33:58 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:33:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 11:53 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >>> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >>> >>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>>> Sun VirtualBox. >>>> >>>> A. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 11:39:32 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:39:32 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm shell? This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is it not working for you? Sent from my mobile On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. > > I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. > > I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! > > Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. > > And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. > > My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. > > So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. > > It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 11:53 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> So in what state is the logical disk that housed your vm? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:40 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> No, not at all. I did not back up before the change of the motherboard. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >>> On 10/25/2011 8:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >>>> Did you mean you did not backup. Ever? >>>> >>>> Sent from my mobile >>>> >>>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 4:14 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but can't you just copy the physical VM file >>>>> from one server to another, say daily? I have successfully done that with >>>>> Sun VirtualBox. >>>>> >>>>> A. >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:07 AM, jwcolbywrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have a virtual machine server (Colby-VM) and last weekend I rebuilt that >>>>>> machine - new motherboard / memory in preparation for a faster CPU etc. I >>>>>> store all my stuff on a RAID array on a dedicated controller, and which >>>>>> survives nicely across upgrades so I got lazy and did not backup. (almost) >>>>>> Everything that could go wrong did and by the end of the experience I was >>>>>> sweating bullets about whether I was going to find one of my critical VMs. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-SQLServer mailing list >>> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Oct 25 11:53:15 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:53:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is identical. The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had chewed some ass on this division's bosses. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm shell? > > This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, > in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is > it not working for you? > > Sent from my mobile > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby wrote: > >> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when an XML file is sitting right there to use. >> >> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >> >> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as well. It pretty much sucks! >> >> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family computers. >> >> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >> >> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >> >> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >> >> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:41:45 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:41:45 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply re-import these files through Hyper-V lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. Suck it up John -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolby wrote: > This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment > doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. > Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is > identical. > > The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and > build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of > course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right > in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. > Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. > > Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I > have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had > chewed some ass on this division's bosses. > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > >> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >> shell? >> >> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >> it not working for you? >> >> Sent from my mobile >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >> wrote: >> >> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>> >>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>> >>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>> >>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>> computers. >>> >>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>> >>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>> >>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>> >>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> Colby Consulting >>> >>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>> when you do not believe in it >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 14:07:17 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:07:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> > Suck it up John LOL, Thanks Francisco. That's what I like about this list. I spend 75% of my day "sucking it up" because of the crap I have to do. Obviously you didn't read the thread. If I was just a low level IT kinda guy in some high $ IT department I would just sit with my feet up and "suck it up" all the way to the bank. As it is, in my life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! But I do appreciate your obvious concern. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale > through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply > re-import these files through Hyper-V > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what > could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. > > Suck it up John > > -Francisco > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment >> doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. >> Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is >> identical. >> >> The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and >> build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of >> course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right >> in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. >> Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. >> >> Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I >> have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had >> chewed some ass on this division's bosses. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> >>> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >>> shell? >>> >>> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >>> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >>> it not working for you? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>>> >>>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>>> >>>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>>> >>>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>>> computers. >>>> >>>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>>> >>>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>>> >>>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>>> >>>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:20:58 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:20:58 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM, jwcolby wrote: > As it is, in my life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! > I did read your thread* Mr Jack of all Trades*... a 10 minute job is a lot better than the alternative could have been (silver lining). I get that you make money only when you are selling lists/reports, applications/databases etc. But just as any business has required maintenance, server IT maintenance is a required byproduct. If you were a cab service, you only make money when your cars are transporting people, but you still need to "loose" money in fueling the cabs up along with all the other required maintenance such oil changes, tune ups, new tires, belts, etc... server and network maintenance is the same, you can't magically be making money and not expect to service the computers and networks that provide you the benefit of working from home. :) in deed, Suck it up :) -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 26 14:31:12 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:31:12 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, , <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than you are when you are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional development) and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. -- Stuart On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:07, jwcolby wrote: > > Suck it up John > > LOL, Thanks Francisco. > > That's what I like about this list. > > I spend 75% of my day "sucking it up" because of the crap I have to > do. Obviously you didn't read the thread. If I was just a low level > IT kinda guy in some high $ IT department I would just sit with my > feet up and "suck it up" all the way to the bank. As it is, in my > life "sucking it up" means losing money. LOTS of money! > > But I do appreciate your obvious concern. ;) > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be > > managale through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you > > can simply re-import these files through Hyper-V > > > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task > > vs what could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a > > backup. > > > > Suck it up John > > > > -Francisco > > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 15:15:30 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:15:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, , <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. I am assuming of course that this stellar advice comes from a sole proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of that. My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not as simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you honestly think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so I am going to charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to generate your required income". Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is not billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to my costs. If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. Do you honestly believe that if a business could charge whatever they want, that I would charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort would not cost 100K? What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is quite as simple as that. > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, then you won't make statements like that. I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is spending time caring about all the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would be out the door in a heartbeat. Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to run with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get my network running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I need to do that stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL Server... I learn just enough to get it running then if I ever need to do that again... I go learn much of it all over. I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still have to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and Access stuff, and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I *lose money* every time I have to go touch that. > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times the hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising their rates effectively immediately. My wife and family will be thrilled to see more of me. I will let you know the outcome. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than you are when you > are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional development) > and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 15:23:33 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 16:23:33 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> One of my favorite scenes and a perfect response to this email. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3E4aY7KDCM ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 2:41 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > I don't know Microsoft's vm technology, but it should all be managale > through Hyper-V Manager. right? by rtfm it looks like you can simply > re-import these files through Hyper-V > > lastly, I'm not too sure why you are complaining about a 10min task vs what > could have been a catastrophe because you chose not to run a backup. > > Suck it up John > > -Francisco > http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:53 AM, jwcolbywrote: > >> This is MS - Hyper-V. I use raid controllers so that the data environment >> doesn't change. I installed a new motherboard / memory in the VM server. >> Reinstalled the raid controller and disks and voila, my data environment is >> identical. >> >> The "recovery" of an individual VM is a 10 minute task. Open hyper-V and >> build a "new" machine, attaching to the existing virtual disk files. Of >> course I have to do that for *every* VM. There is an XML file sitting right >> in the VM directory alongside of the virtual disk which describes the VM. >> Path to the disk, amount of memory, number of processors. >> >> Do you think I can get hyper-V to actually *look* at that file? Nope, I >> have to build the stinking thing all over. I sure wish Bill Gates had >> chewed some ass on this division's bosses. >> >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> >> Reality is what refuses to go away >> when you do not believe in it >> >> On 10/25/2011 12:39 PM, Francisco Tapia wrote: >> >>> So your saying that the VMware software is asking you to rebuild the vm >>> shell? >>> >>> This can happen based on the new physical changes of your environment, >>> in the past I simply used VMware converter to do the heavy lifting, is >>> it not working for you? >>> >>> Sent from my mobile >>> >>> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:34 AM, jwcolby> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't quite understand the question, but everything is working fine. >>>> As long as the virtual disks themselves still exist it is somewhat trivial >>>> to get a vm back working, but it is absolutely silly that I have to >>>> "rebuild" every VM, attaching the existing virtual disk for the VM(s) when >>>> an XML file is sitting right there to use. >>>> >>>> I have been doing this for years and for the small guy, the process is >>>> just pure frigging magic shall we say. Smoke and mirrors and who the heck >>>> knows why we have to jump through these hoops. For a fortune 500 company >>>> with a million dollar IT payroll this may all make sense. >>>> >>>> I'm telling you, you guys should try and exist in this IT world when you >>>> are a sole proprietor trying to maintain all this stuff and make a living as >>>> well. It pretty much sucks! >>>> >>>> Just understanding networks is a full time career. Then add virtual >>>> machines (and their servers), and SQL Server (and their servers), and then >>>> maintain the workstations, and finally... learn C# and Access, source >>>> control (and the server), 16 different variants of remote access into the >>>> client's machines. FTP crap to get and put files. Have I left anything >>>> out? Oh yea, in my "spare time" I have to maintain all of the family >>>> computers. >>>> >>>> And my wife wonders why I spend 12 hours a day in my office. >>>> >>>> My JOB is writing C# and Access database software. My JOB actually >>>> consumes about 25% of my total time. Maaaaybe 50% on a good day. >>>> >>>> So when I spend 2 hours dicking around trying to figure out (for the >>>> third or fourth time) how to get my VMs to cleanly back up - AND FAIL!!! >>>> (for the third or fourth time!!!) - I get slightly annoyed. >>>> >>>> It shouldn't be this hard! The technology of all of this stuff is cool, >>>> the implementation is crap, and that is being kind. >>>> >>>> John W. Colby >>>> Colby Consulting >>>> >>>> Reality is what refuses to go away >>>> when you do not believe in it >>>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> dba-SQLServer mailing list >> dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver >> http://www.databaseadvisors.**com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Oct 26 15:54:00 2011 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 06:54:00 +1000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of that, Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. I said "required", not "desired". You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage for yourself. You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that determines your minimum billing rate. You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. -- Stuart On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > I am assuming of course that > > My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not > as simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you > honestly think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so > I am going to charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization > > Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to > generate your required income". > > Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is > not billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to > my costs. If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. > Do you honestly believe that if a business could charge whatever they > want, that I would charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort > would not cost 100K? > > What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is > quite as simple as that. > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, > then you won't make statements like that. > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you > are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not > then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. > In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is > spending time caring about all > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. > And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would > be out the door in a heartbeat. > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after > awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you > become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then > you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you > *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. > > A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to > run with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get > my network running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I > need to do that stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL > Server... I learn just enough to get it running then if I ever need to > do that again... I go learn much of it all over. > > I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still > have to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and > Access stuff, and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I > *lose money* every time I have to go touch that. > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from > your billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times > the hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising > their rates effectively immediately. My wife and family will be > thrilled to see more of me. > > I will let you know the outcome. > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > > You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more > > than you are when you are doing your tax returns, learning how to > > program in C# (professional development) and.doing all the other > > things needed to run your business. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > > billable hours/outputs factoring in that 75%. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:45:44 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:45:44 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <-3381981045989815633@unknownmsgid> <4EA6BC19.6080207@colbyconsulting.com> <-6620619727165283761@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E4F6.60607@colbyconsulting.com> <1001515723390684236@unknownmsgid> <4EA6E97B.8030204@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86C45.20208@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: LOL, because you forgot to run your backups right? LOL -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:23 PM, jwcolby wrote: > One of my favorite scenes and a perfect response to this email. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:51:29 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:51:29 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA85A65.6010607@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Mr Jack of All Trades (master of none) so you also change your own tires, belts, tune up, etc? If you are loosing > $$ to maintain your environment, it may be worthwhile to hire a contracting firm that can help reduce your costs so you can keep making $$, you won't need to think about backups, server hardware etc... -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:15 PM, jwcolby wrote: > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > I am assuming of course that this stellar advice comes from a sole > proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your > business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all of > that. > > My guess (from your response) is that you haven't a clue. It is not as > simple as "OK guys, I am going to charge $250 / hour". Do you honestly > think I have a little "I want to make a million this year so I am going to > charge $X / hour" kind of thing going on here? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Profit_maximization > > Hmmm... that doesn't look *anything like* "set your billing rate to > generate your required income". > > Time spent in work that is not billable is time spent in work that is not > billable. How much I *can* charge is almost entirely unrelated to my costs. > If that were not true, then a Ford Escort would cost 100K. Do you honestly > believe that if a business could charge whatever they want, that I would > charge what I charge now? Or that a Ford Escort would not cost 100K? > > What happens is that I spend more hours (un-billable) working. It is quite > as simple as that. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > Take a business course before you make statements like that Stuart, then > you won't make statements like that. > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you are > maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not then doing > billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. In either case, you can > bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is spending time caring about all > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. And I > would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would be out the > door in a heartbeat. > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after awhile you > become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you become an > *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then you become > efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you *relatively* little > money to do it because you are efficient. > > A "Jack of all trades" (which I never claim to be, but I am going to run > with that) doesn't have that luxury. I learn just enough to get my network > running, and I kinda sorta remember some of it but if I need to do that > stuff again... I go learn much of it all over. SQL Server... I learn just > enough to get it running then if I ever need to do that again... I go learn > much of it all over. > > I am *NEVER* efficient at all the crap that is not my job, but I still have > to do all that stuff. I am efficient at C# programming, and Access stuff, > and SQL Server programming stuff... but all the rest I *lose money* every > time I have to go touch that. > > > > You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your > billable hours/outputs > factoring in that 75%. > > OK so I just notified my clients that I really need to make four times the > hourly rate that I am currently charging them, and I am raising their rates > effectively immediately. My wife and family will be thrilled to see more of > me. > > I will let you know the outcome. > > > ;) > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 3:31 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > >> You are not "losing money" while maintaining your systems any more than >> you are when you >> are doing your tax returns, learning how to program in C# (professional >> development) >> and.doing all the other things needed to run your business. >> >> You set your billing rate to generate your required income from your >> billable hours/outputs >> factoring in that 75%. >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer@**databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/**mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.**com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 15:59:33 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:59:33 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: ROFLMAO, XD thanks for making Wednesday fun :) -Francisco http://bit.ly/sqlthis | Tsql and More... On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 > years.On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > > On 26 Oct 2011 at 16:15, jwcolby wrote: > > > > I do not work for a Lexacorp Stuart. YOU do not lose money when you > > are maintaining your systems. But Lexacorp does because YOU are not > > then doing billable work. Or you are just an expense to them. > > In either case, you can bet your sweet ass somebody in Lexacorp is > > spending time caring about all > > the "sucking it up" that they have to do that is costing them money. > > And I would guess that if you ever said "suck it up" to them you would > > be out the door in a heartbeat. > > > > Lexicorp has an advantage in size Stuart. They can train you to do > > whatever it is you do, and then have you do that thing, and after > > awhile you become efficient at it. If that is SQL Server admin, you > > become an *efficient* SQL Server admin. If it is programming, then > > you become efficient at that. And you do that and they pay you > > *relatively* little money to do it because you are efficient. > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Oct 26 23:17:22 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 00:17:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com>, <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg>, <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. And then you... As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE ;) LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE with gusto! ;) Nice chattin with ya Stuart! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/26/2011 4:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole > proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your > business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all > of that, > > Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. > > I said "required", not "desired". > You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage > for yourself. > You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that > determines your minimum billing rate. > You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. > > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. > If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 06:51:58 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 04:51:58 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just the right YouTube clip to post into an email? Or is this part of your non-billable crap? Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford to just Suck it Up!! That's all part of the joy of running your own business. :) now quit wasting your time on non-billable crap and get back to those VMs! Sent from my mobile On Oct 26, 2011, at 9:18 PM, jwcolby wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. > > And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. > > And then you... > > As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. > > My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. > > I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > > > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. > > You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > > The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE > > ;) > > LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. > > Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE > > with gusto! > > ;) > > Nice chattin with ya Stuart! > > > John W. Colby > Colby Consulting > > Reality is what refuses to go away > when you do not believe in it > > On 10/26/2011 4:54 PM, Stuart McLachlan wrote: >> You are correct. This stellar advice does come from a sole >> proprietor who is intimately aware of the problems of marketing your >> business, setting your billing rate, what the market will bear and all >> of that, >> >> Lexacorp is Me. There's no one else. It's been that way for the last 18 years. >> >> I said "required", not "desired". >> You determine your minimum required income to cover all costs and an accceptable wage >> for yourself. >> You estimate your minimum billable hours factoring in all those other things and that >> determines your minimum billing rate. >> You then look at the market to see how that rate stacks up. >> >> If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. >> If you can sell your services at a higher rate or sell more hours, you will do well >> If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 08:31:04 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 09:31:04 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Francisco, > Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just the right YouTube clip to post into an email? LOL. Google is great. It took about 30 seconds to find just the right clip, and it was amusing as well. I might as well be amused, given all the very un-amusing crap I have to put up with. > Or is this part of your non-billable crap? Uhhh, yup! ;) But at least this is amusing non-billable crap. ;) > That's all part of the joy of running your own business. In fact is is all part of the joy of running my own business. I love running my own business. I love building the machines, I love learning how to do this stuff, I love the satisfaction of having a SOHO with a 16 core server with 64 gigs of ram and 8 tb of raid 6 storage. I love that I can run a sql server with 400 million records being used to fill orders in minutes / hours as opposed to the days that it took just a few years ago. I just love architecting systems in C# to automate this business. It used to be that all I did was remote in to other people's systems and do design work. I had none of this "overhead" because all I needed to do my job was my workstation and an internet connection. I got a new client, which pays me a ton of money, but which required that I do things that I had no training for - SQL Server admin, SQL Server programming, C# programming etc. Yep, it increased my workload because there is just no getting around the overhead of these systems. And it was almost impossible to forecast what would be required to get into this business. But I was underemployed in the Access arena and needed to do something. this client came to me and asked if I could do this stuff. I had never even touched SQL Server but I said "yep, I can do that" and I did. I do make plenty of money, way more than I would in most other lines of work and (at least) as much as I would as an employee doing my same job. And I get the immense satisfaction of setting my own schedule and all the other perks of being a sole proprietor. > Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford to just Suck it Up!! I obviously can afford to just suck it up. I just choose not to. ;) John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 7:51 AM, Francisco Tapia wrote: > Out of curiosity how much do you bill for spending 47 hours for just > the right YouTube clip to post into an email? Or is this part of your > non-billable crap? > > Hahaha, since you talk that you make plenty of $$, then you can afford > to just Suck it Up!! > > That's all part of the joy of running your own business. > > :) now quit wasting your time on non-billable crap and get back to those VMs! > > > > > Sent from my mobile From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 10:45:15 2011 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:45:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it saves the hassle and also the loot. My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is spelled out. To take a few examples: a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given project; b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all clients; c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. These issues can be handled in two ways: a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the invoice. In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. virtualization). Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the client's situation. Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 11:39:30 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:39:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> Arthur, Yes, an admirable discourse on the subject, in many ways and in some cases right on the money. Unfortunately missing from that is simply the acknowledgement of client size, and little things like accurately understanding the probability that I will run into something "not doable". For example this client is in fact a virtual company consisting of himself and a brother and a handful of employees. We are not talking a hundred million a year company with a server room fill of shiny toys and an entire suite of lawyers and accountants. Everyone in this virtual company works out of their own home. So I do this, and he pays my bills, but to try and hire the "big guns" to come in and help me is a non starter. I would end up eating a huge bill. Additionally missing is an accurate representation of how I can figure out that I am going to hit something I can't figure out in a reasonable time frame. I decided that I really need virtual machines. In fact I could live without them (as is true with just about everything in life) but they solve some problems neatly, and boy do they ever. I have a 3rd party software that is the center of this business which runs on my machine. I used to have it native install on hardware, but it is a royal pita to set up and license. Once that is done, it runs happily until... the hardware changes. Throw that in a VM and voila, copy the vm to another server on the new hardware and your are done. There are three other very useful VMs that I own, one where we do all of the C# development, what I call vmDev. Again, setting up a VM allows me to install visual studio, get it talking to the source control and so forth. There is a ton of setup required for that stuff but once done, I can just move the VM to faster hardware. So I launch into VMs. Can I just call up my small business client and explain to him that VMs are cool, they save me all this hassle and "oh by the way", no idea how much this will cost but just pony up a 10K check for hiring the big guns. That seems unlikely to fly. So I do it myself. And guess what, it is reasonably easy to do. And I have the knowledge in-house (my head) and I use that knowledge to do the basics and I remember the basics. Now... it comes time to back up the VMs. OMFG is that a nightmare! And I spend a ton of time studying this crap and never do get it working. And I manually copy machine directories which at least gets them backed up but is a crappy solution. So 6 months later I take another stab at it and OMFG is it (still) a nightmare! It is in those "OMFG is that a nightmare" scenarios where I spend non-billable hours that truly annoy me. A lot of "non-billable" hours truly are just the cost of doing business but there are other things like backing up a VM where it should just work. But it doesn't. And I cannot figure out why, nor can I calculate how much time I will spend to get it working, nor can I calculate how much I would spend to hire the big guns to fix it. Nor do I even know any big guns to fix it. Again, it kind of boils down to scale. For a big company you just put it in the budget for these kind of things, but there is a large income to carve that line item out of. You just call the IT guy into the office and tell him to get it done and he goes away and gets it done, out of the budget line item you provide. In my case I am the IT guy and it comes out of my rent. I just can't realistically pass it up. I understand perfectly what you are talking about Arthur. I long ago stopped doing my own plumbing and electrical work, which is the same concept. I can hire it done cheaper than I can do it myself. But I can pretty accurately estimate the cost / bene ratio and I know where to go find the plumber. In something this complex I really can't forecast whether I may end up paying someone a ton of money I don't have and can't recoup. *Those* are the issues that are just not fun as a sole proprietor. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 11:45 AM, Arthur Fuller wrote: > IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be > skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical > applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my > (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it > saves the hassle and also the loot. > > My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into > each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable > items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the > alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be > part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these > costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this > issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is > spelled out. To take a few examples: > > a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given > project; > b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all > clients; > c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. > > These issues can be handled in two ways: > > a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or > b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the > invoice. > > In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a > monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it > client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. > > The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the > costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running > your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done > internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the > client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a > contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to > said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has > 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can > a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few > servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. > virtualization). > > Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread > (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a > small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what > they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given > my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to > be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe > that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just > plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and > lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant > fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the > client's situation. > > Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the > cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software > (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. > > Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the > client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could > potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be > recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge > this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone > on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure > restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case > the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. > > Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project > manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is > sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching > alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, > installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the > way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you > still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. > > That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her > costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of > hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From fhtapia at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:27:28 2011 From: fhtapia at gmail.com (Francisco Tapia) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:27:28 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA98942.20905@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, but as you stated, you do make enough $$ to just suck it up, which even if it is a pita to copy folders out because you haven't a clue how to properly backup your VMs. You've done the leg work and have been totaly unsucessful in properly backing up your VMs, true you have a workaround and you have an estimate of non-billable hours that you have spent on this task. You've also taken a stab at plumbing and your own electrical work which is how you figured it's cheaper to just hire in some "big guns" to get it done. knowing what you know now about how you cannot backup a VM, you could contact MS and ask for tech support and estimate on how to get the VMs backed up. It was in these scenarios when I was researching VMs on why I picked VMware, because they were established, and everything could be done by our IT team, because it did not take any strange voodoo magic or our company "sucking it up". and btw, I did the research on my on hours not on company time... technically any money on maintenance isn't ever re-couped, it's always a setback because if you hadn't spent it you'd still have it... Let's get back to SQL -Francisco On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:39 AM, jwcolby wrote: > Now... it comes time to back up the VMs. OMFG is that a nightmare! And I > spend a ton of time studying this crap and never do get it working. And I > manually copy machine directories which at least gets them backed up but is > a crappy solution. So 6 months later I take another stab at it and OMFG is > it (still) a nightmare! > > It is in those "OMFG is that a nightmare" scenarios where I spend > non-billable hours that truly annoy me. A lot of "non-billable" hours truly > are just the cost of doing business but there are other things like backing > up a VM where it should just work. But it doesn't. And I cannot figure out > why, nor can I calculate how much time I will spend to get it working, nor > can I calculate how much I would spend to hire the big guns to fix it. Nor > do I even know any big guns to fix it. > > Again, it kind of boils down to scale. For a big company you just put it > in the budget for these kind of things, but there is a large income to carve > that line item out of. You just call the IT guy into the office and tell > him to get it done and he goes away and gets it done, out of the budget line > item you provide. In my case I am the IT guy and it comes out of my rent. > I just can't realistically pass it up. > > I understand perfectly what you are talking about Arthur. I long ago > stopped doing my own plumbing and electrical work, which is the same > concept. I can hire it done cheaper than I can do it myself. But I can > pretty accurately estimate the cost / bene ratio and I know where to go find > the plumber. In something this complex I really can't forecast whether I > may end up paying someone a ton of money I don't have and can't recoup. > > *Those* are the issues that are just not fun as a sole proprietor. > > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 27 15:42:09 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:42:09 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a single OS. The problem is they succeeded very well in accomplishing their first objective of stopping anyone copying their VM drives but failed on making allowances for legitimate backup and recovery...or at least documenting a process to do same. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:17 PM To: dba-sqlserver at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM And then you run into the VM that can't be backed up in any easy manner and you spend X hours doing stupid crap, trying to figure out how to do the backup, which it appears simply cannot be done in any reasonable manner. And you run into the SQL Server stuff that you haven't a clue about and you spend X more hours doing stupid crap. And then you... As I said, time spent on non-billable stuff is time spent on non billable stuff. Pure overhead, for which you yourself *claim* to understand, cannot simply be billed for. So you spend more hours of your day doing non-billable stuff. My point is simply that just because person A can do X all day and bill accordingly doesn't mean person B can do so. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM > If you can sell your services at that rate for the estimated hours, you survive. I do "survive", I earn roughly double the median. I just have to spend too many non-billable hours doing stupid crap, wrestling with things that should have been addressed long ago. This is not "just jc", I go Google to discover how to do this stuff and find long threads with 47 different answers that work for this person but not for anybody else and 47 different people saying how stupid this is. I can't export a VM to a share because... no one knows for sure, but if you can't export you can't import it back in. After a couple of non-billable hours searching for the answer, I just give up. None of the suggestions worked (for me), although all of the suggestions worked for someone. > If you can't sell your services at that rate - get out of the business. You trivialize this stuff in order to be argumentative but in the end... http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=O3E4aY7KDCM The unemployment rate hovers around 12.9% and I think I will just "get out of the business". Yep Stuart, I do believe I will take your stellar advice. The unemployment line sounds infinitely preferable. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE ;) LOL, you're welcome to just suck it up Stuart. Personally I'm OK, I enjoy my work, in fact I love what I do, I just have to spend too much time doing non-billable crap. I make way more than I would selling vacuums at Sears or standing in the unemployment line. And the best part is I get to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmSQogb4wCE with gusto! ;) Nice chattin with ya Stuart! John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Oct 27 15:52:29 2011 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:52:29 -0700 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> I ran my own company (this is not counting a one-man proprietorship) for a few years and had a number of employees to deal with. The rule of thumb, with services, is to charge 3 times what something costs you. Part one pays off the cost, part two pays off the basic ongoing business expenses and part three is supposed to cover wasted time and pay you as the owner. It should work out to 30-30-40. That formula has worked very well for the last 30 plus years. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Fuller Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:45 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines IME, the weakest link in the chain is its breaking point. One cannot be skilled at everything. One among many skills I lack is practical applications of the advanced accounting rules. Hence, that's the first of my (lack of) skills to replace with a professional. Yes, it costs, but yes, it saves the hassle and also the loot. My accountant showed me how to factor overhead (e.g. backup time, etc.) into each client's billing. To oversimplify, there are two additional billable items: Maintenance and Research. Consider (to quote my accountant) the alternatives: imagine if you were an in-house employee; these costs would be part of the big picture. There is no reason for you to absorb all these costs as "unbillable hours". You have a few choices how to deal with this issue, but every client will immediately understand the issue once it is spelled out. To take a few examples: a) time spent backing up the Dev|Test|Production versions of any given project; b) hardware and software expenses incurred to support any given and all clients; c) version-control management, with ability to rollback etc. These issues can be handled in two ways: a) do it all at once and divide the time among the clients; or b) do it client-by-client and add "Maintenance" as a line item on the invoice. In the first case, divide the time by the number of active clients and add a monthly line item. In the second case, take the extra time to do it client-by-client and add a monthly line item to each client. The clients' accounting people are well aware of the costs relative to the costs of doing it internally. What is not bill-able is the costs of running your office (electrical, rent, cubicle-space, etc. if it were done internally). OTOH, if I have to upgrade my hardware in order to match the client's, that IMO is billable. Had I been an employee rather than a contractor, then obviously the costs would have directly been directed to said client. If you have an argument with this, consider a client that has 200 workstations and a dozen servers and expects safe-rollover etc. How can a small developer emulate this situation? Probably not without a few servers, a significant investment in hardware and software (esp. virtualization). Recalling a previous project, which involved a db of about 100GB, spread (mainly for security and legal reasons) across 8 servers. How am I as a small developer supposed to emulate that, on my billable hours? This is what they used to call "reductio ad absurdum", back in the days of Latin. Given my current at-home hardware+software, it is flatly impossible; therefore to be able to emulate this environment, I must invest $$$, and I do not believe that these costs should come out of my billable hours. That IMO is just plain silly. The client has two choices: either buy the equivalent HW and lend it to me for the duration of the project, or accept a significant fraction of the price of my own acquisition of enough HW/SW to emulate the client's situation. Add to this the costs of backing everything up on a timely fashion, plus the cost of the backup-storage media, plus the costs of the restore-software (i.e. something like DriveImage) and so on. Yes, the HW and SW on my machine(s) are my responsibility, but without the client's presence and HW/SW demands upon my installation, I could potentially be happy with an XBox, and that simple fact needs to be recognized in the billing procedure. Exactly the best way to acknowledge this is a matter of opinion, not to mention negotiation, but surely everyone on both sides of the table must recognize the realities of backup/ensure restore-ability, ensure that said backups are taken off-site daily (in case the house burns down), the additional fraction of the hydro costs, etc. Of course, this discussion will first of all occur with the client's project manager, who is under her own cost constraints, but if everything is sufficiently detailed (i.e. line items for time spent researching alternative approaches to a solution, backing up the current version, installation, version control, etc.), then it will all be justified all the way up the accounting chain, and the accounting people will realize that you still haven't billed for office space, hydro costs, etc. That's how my accountant explained it to me, and it worked. She repaid her costs about three times over, and significantly altered the ratio of hours-billed vs. hours-unbilled. Arthur _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 16:00:31 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:00:31 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <5814850977561610983@unknownmsgid> <4EA95D18.8010906@colbyconsulting.com> <6E3C71A4BE4E43FDABB6C94116CE493D@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4EA9C66F.6090607@colbyconsulting.com> Apparently you didn't get the memo... to "get back to SQL Server stuff"? ;) I have a single part timer working as a consultant to me. I pay him 1/3 of my billing for his hours and I bill his hours through. So I am with you on that. Unfortunately as I give him raises I will not be able to just raise my rates to keep that ratio. But for the moment I am doing all right on that part. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 4:52 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > I ran my own company (this is not counting a one-man proprietorship) for a > few years and had a number of employees to deal with. The rule of thumb, > with services, is to charge 3 times what something costs you. > > Part one pays off the cost, part two pays off the basic ongoing business > expenses and part three is supposed to cover wasted time and pay you as the > owner. It should work out to 30-30-40. > > That formula has worked very well for the last 30 plus years. > > Jim From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Oct 27 16:05:09 2011 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:05:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Syncing Virtual Machines In-Reply-To: <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4EA69873.7000104@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA86000.16299.85CE589@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA86A62.2070901@colbyconsulting.com> <4EA87368.23963.8A8B69F@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> <4EA8DB52.5010409@colbyconsulting.com> <13830D5037DD4E0A9F9FF649A2A1B9EE@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4EA9C785.2090206@colbyconsulting.com> > The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a single OS. Of course they do have this problem, but I can still just copy the disk file and manually recreate it on another server and be up and running. Because of machine name collisions and such it takes a little more than that but still doable. They have actually made it possible to somehow do a live transfer but that is way over my head or abilities. I would actually love to be able to do that, it sure would have made this whole server upgrade much nicer, but it is just not within my grasp. John W. Colby Colby Consulting Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it On 10/27/2011 4:42 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > The core of the problem is that Microsoft does not want people to copy their > virtual drives, as that would allow a person to make numerous copy of a > single OS. > > The problem is they succeeded very well in accomplishing their first > objective of stopping anyone copying their VM drives but failed on making > allowances for legitimate backup and recovery...or at least documenting a > process to do same. > > Jim From lawhonac at hiwaay.net Fri Oct 28 13:30:48 2011 From: lawhonac at hiwaay.net (Alan Lawhon) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 18:30:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Script Seems To Be Stuck in an Infinite Loop - Or Just Stuck Message-ID: <001301cc959f$b45b9020$1d12b060$@net> I'm almost embarrassed to post this, but after two days of trying to debug this, I'm near the screaming point. (Ha! Ha! I know . real programmers don't scream, but I'm new to SQL Server 2008R2 - Express Edition, so I'm experiencing routine growing pains.) I created a script to determine if a positive integer is a prime number - a number divisible only by itself and 1. Fairly simple, right? I succeeded in creating a script that tests a single hard-coded prime number candidate and displays a SELECT statement indicating whether or not the integer is a prime number. That script works like a champ. (If the prime number candidate is an integer like 20 or 100 - which has multiple integer factors that evenly divide into the candidate number, my script displays all of those evenly divisible factors - along with a message that the number is not prime.) So far, so good. Next I decided to get cute and create a new "PRIME_NUMBERS_IN_A_RANGE.sql" script that would find all the prime numbers within a given (hard-coded) range - for instance, all the prime numbers in the range from 20 down to 3. (There are seven prime numbers in that range.) This script is a little more involved than the previous script, but it shouldn't be that hard - or so I thought. The code (with liberal doses of comments sprinkled in) follows. When I attempt to execute this script, the first five SELECT statements (debugging statements) output the expected values. For some reason, the sixth SELECT statement does not appear to execute - the execution skips output of the: SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' Testing value of @Prime_Number_Candidate B4 entering outer WHILE loop.' SELECT statement and appears to go into an infinite loop. (The message in the lower left-hand corner says "query executing" while the time-of-execution clock continues ticking off. Also, despite the fact that the first two statements in my script - "USE AP" (a sample database) and "GO" should change the context to the "AP" sample database, the execution display indicates "master" instead of "AP". (I don't know if this is significant or not.) I tried commenting out "USE AP" and "GO" since I don't use any objects from the AP sample database in this script, but I still get the same "infinite loop" execution problem. There's one other (long shot) possibility that may be at work here, but I doubt if this is the real culprit - but I'll go ahead and mention it anyway. There was a point, during one of the numerous "refining sessions" when I was trying to get this to work, that I may have gotten an extraneous (non-printing) character inserted into the script. (I recall the cursor seeming to lock up and the entire editing screen going blank - as if all the code statements had suddenly been wiped.) I was able to exit the editing session and reenter the script and resume coding, but I can't shake the feeling that something "bad" may have gotten inserted into the script and a possible extraneous non-printing character (or combination of extraneous non-printing characters if they do in fact exist) may be causing this problem. This is a long shot, but I thought I should mention it - just in case. I suspect this is something "simple" that you guys have seen a thousand times before - or at least once. I would be very grateful if you take a quick look at this script and advise on what may be wrong. TIA. Alan "Wrapped Around the Axle" Lawhon PRIME_NUMBERS_IN_A_RANGE.sql USE AP GO -- -- This version finds all prime numbers within a range of integers bound by an upper -- limit and a lower limit. For instance, all prime numbers between an upper limit -- of 20 and a lower limit of 3. -- DECLARE @Prime_Number_Candidate AS int, @Outer_Loop_Index AS int, @Quotient AS int, @Remainder AS int, @IS_PRIME_FLAG AS char(5) DECLARE @Upper_Bound_Limit AS int, @Lower_Bound_Limit As int, @Inner_Loop_Index As int -- SET @Upper_Bound_Limit = 20 SET @Lower_Bound_Limit = 3 SET @Outer_Loop_Index = @Upper_Bound_Limit SET @Prime_Number_Candidate = @Upper_Bound_Limit -- -- SELECT @Prime_Number_Candidate As Test1 SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' converted to varchar.' AS Test2 SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Upper_Bound_Limit) + ' Testing value of @Upper_Bound_Limit B4 entering outer WHILE loop.' SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Lower_Bound_Limit) + ' Testing value of @Lower_Bound_Limit B4 entering outer WHILE loop.' SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Outer_Loop_Index) + ' Testing value of Outer_Loop_Index B4 entering outer WHILE loop.' SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' Testing value of @Prime_Number_Candidate B4 entering outer WHILE loop.' -- -- First five SELECT statements successfully execute - sixth SELECT statement -- does not execute. -- -- -- Now we proceed with main (outermost) processing loop. -- WHILE (@Outer_Loop_Index <= @Upper_Bound_Limit) -- -- The outer loop WHILE expression sets up an infinite loop since the value in the -- @Outer_Loop_Index variable will always be less than or equal to the value in the -- @Upper_Bound_Limit - because I've set an explicit assignment statement to ensure -- that condition! Since we only want the outermost WHILE loop to process prime -- number candidates in the range from @Upper_Bound_Limit down to Lower_Bound_Limit, -- (in this case all the positive integers from 20 down to 3), we need to put in a -- logic test that will detect when the @Outer_Loop_Index goes below the -- @Lower_Bound_Limit, (i.e. decrements from "3" to "2"), and exit the script -- at that point. -- IF (@Outer_Loop_Index < @Lower_Bound_Limit) SELECT 'Processing complete! Outer_Loop_Index = ' + CONVERT(varchar, @Outer_Loop_Index) As Processing_Loop_Completed IF (@Outer_Loop_Index < @Lower_Bound_Limit) RETURN -- -- Start processing with the assumption that the @Prime_Number_Candidate is a prime -- number - by setting the @IS_PRIME_FLAG to an initial value of 'TRUE' - and -- leaving the flag set to a value of 'TRUE' until it is determined that the -- integer is not prime. -- SET @IS_PRIME_FLAG = 'TRUE' -- BEGIN -- SET @Inner_Loop_Index = @Prime_Number_Candidate -- WHILE (@Inner_Loop_Index >= 1) -- BEGIN SET @Quotient = @Prime_Number_Candidate/@Inner_Loop_Index SET @Remainder = @Prime_Number_Candidate%@Inner_Loop_Index -- -- In any IF statement logic test, the first two identifiers connected by the AND -- logical operator, (i.e. @Quotient >= 1 AND @Remainder = 0) must be included -- since all non-prime divisors, (such as 10, 5, 4 and 2 in the case of -- PRIME_CANDIDATE = 20) will be detected by this conditional expression. -- The key is figuring out the correct third logical expression to add to -- these first two conditions. -- IF (@Quotient >= 1 AND @Remainder = 0 AND @Prime_Number_Candidate <> @Inner_Loop_Index) SELECT @Prime_Number_Candidate AS Prime_Number_Candidate, @Inner_Loop_Index AS Divisor, @Quotient AS Quotient, @Remainder AS Remainder, CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is NOT a prime number.', CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is evenly divisible by ' + CONVERT(varchar, @Inner_Loop_Index) + '.' IF (@Quotient >= 1 AND @Remainder = 0 AND @Prime_Number_Candidate <> @Inner_Loop_Index) SET @IS_PRIME_FLAG = 'FALSE' IF (@Quotient >= 1 AND @Remainder = 0 AND @Prime_Number_Candidate <> @Inner_Loop_Index) SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @IS_PRIME_FLAG) + ' flag should be FALSE.' AS IS_PRIME_FLAG_VALUE -- -- IF (@Inner_Loop_Index = 1 AND @IS_PRIME_FLAG = 'TRUE') -- SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' -- SET @Inner_Loop_Index = @Inner_Loop_Index - 1 SELECT @Inner_Loop_Index AS 'Inner_Loop_Index value after decrementing by 1.' END -- SET @Outer_Loop_Index = @Outer_Loop_Index - 1 -- SET @Inner_Loop_Index = @Outer_Loop_Index -- Watch for the effect of this assignment statement. -- SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Outer_Loop_Index) + ' = Outer_Loop_Index variable after decrementing by 1.' SET @Prime_Number_Candidate = @Outer_Loop_Index SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' = next Prime Number candidate.' IF (@IS_PRIME_FLAG = 'TRUE') SELECT CONVERT(varchar, @Prime_Number_Candidate) + ' is a PRIME number.' AS Prime_Candidate END From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Mon Oct 3 01:51:05 2011 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 06:51:05 -0000 Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book References: <000501cc80fb$889d5260$99d7f720$@net> Message-ID: <99266C61B516644D9727F983FAFAB4650869A1@remote.ddisolutions.com.au> Hi Alan, Mixing AND and ORs usually requires () to get right output. Is this not the purpose of the demonstration :-) >From the help file, precedence -- logical operators SELECT ProductID, ProductModelID FROM AdventureWorks.Production.Product WHERE ProductModelID = 20 OR ProductModelID = 21 AND Color = 'Red' You can change the meaning of the query by adding parentheses to force evaluation of the OR first. The following query finds only products under models 20 and 21 that are red. Copy Code SELECT ProductID, ProductModelID FROM AdventureWorks.Production.Product WHERE (ProductModelID = 20 OR ProductModelID = 21) AND Color = 'Red' Using parentheses, even when they are not required, can improve the readability of queries and reduce the chance of making a subtle mistake because of operator precedence. There is no significant performance penalty in using parentheses. The following example is more readable than the original example, although they are syntactically the same. Copy Code SELECT ProductID, ProductModelID FROM AdventureWorks.Production.Product WHERE ProductModelID = 20 OR (ProductModelID = 21 AND Color = 'Red') Precedence is determined by AND/OR and ()ing, not by where the AND and OR are in the statement... HTH Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-sqlserver-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lawhon Sent: Sunday, 2 October 2011 11:05 PM To: 'Discussion concerning MS SQL Server' Subject: [dba-SQLServer] Confusion Regarding Figure 3-11 in "Murach's SQLServer 2008 for Developers" Book I've sent the following email to the folks at Murach books asking a question about something I've run across in their book on SQL Server 2008. Since they took about two weeks to respond to my last inquiry, I thought it would be faster to consult with the experts on this message board. (If any of you have a copy of "Murach's SQL Server 2008 for Developers" book, you can find the two examples I'm referring to on page 104 and 105 of that book. Dear Mike, Joel, and Bryan: Hello, it's me again - Alan C. Lawhon of Huntsville, Alabama. I'm reading the section of chapter 3 on "How to use the AND, OR, and NOT logical operators" and specifically two of the examples from Figure 3-11. The two examples I'm referring to deal with compound conditions [in WHERE clauses] and how using parenthesis alters the order of precedence. I've come across something which does not make sense which I'm hoping you guys can explain. Based on the two examples given on page 105, I constructed (and executed) the following query. USE AP GO SELECT InVoiceNumber, InvoiceDate, InvoiceTotal, PaymentTotal, CreditTotal, (InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal) AS [BalanceDue] FROM Invoices -- -- The following WHERE clause (with no parenthesis) returns 100 rows. (I have -- deliberately commented out this WHERE clause after running and testing -- it. Execution of this WHERE clause produced a 100 row resultset just -- as the fifth example on page 105 indicates it should.) -- -- WHERE InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500 -- AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- The above WHERE clause is very confusing as I don't understand why the -- [BalanceDue] calculation in the AND condition portion of the WHERE -- clause produces 89 records in the resultset where the calculated value -- in the [BalanceDue] field is equal to 0.00? Those 89 records should be -- excluded, shouldn't they? (They are excluded in the alternate WHERE -- clause [below] which returns 11 rows and the value in the [BalanceDue] -- calculated field is greater than 0.00 for all eleven of those records.) -- -- Rewritten WHERE clause (using parenthesis to change order of precedence) -- returns 11 rows - just as Figure 3-11 indicates it should. -- WHERE (InvoiceDate > '05-01-2008' OR InvoiceTotal > 500) AND InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0 -- -- This WHERE clause makes sense! -- ORDER BY [BalanceDue] DESC OK, here's where I'm confused. It's the condition following the "AND" qualifier in both versions of the WHERE clause. It seems to me that in the first [commented out] WHERE clause, 89 of those 100 rows should not have been returned! Specifically, the 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] calculated field, (i.e. "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0"), evaluated to 0.00. Those rows should not have been returned because the logical "AND" condition does not evaluate to true. (Interestingly, in the second WHERE clause, where parenthesis is used to change the order of precedence, only 11 rows are returned - which agrees with what Figure 3-11 indicates.) In the second WHERE clause example, it appears that the SQL Server database engine (or query processor) correctly evaluates the "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" expression and excludes the 89 rows which do not meet that criteria. Since the expression following the "AND" qualifier is identical in both WHERE clauses, (and the logical expressions on both sides of an "AND" qualifier have to evaluate to "True" for a row to be returned), I don't think the 89 records (where the [BalanceDue] field shows a value of 0.00) should have been returned in the first WHERE clause example. However, it appears that the SQL Server query processor disagrees with me since it returned those 89 records! I've looked at this repeatedly and it doesn't make sense. The logical condition to the right of the AND portion of the first WHERE clause fails for 89 of the rows returned. Irrespective of whether or not parenthesis was used (in that first WHERE clause example), those 89 rows where the [BalanceDue] field evaluated to 0.00 should not have been included. That is my contention, but I must be seriously confused about this since the query processor says those 89 rows should have been returned - along with the other 11 rows where "InvoiceTotal - PaymentTotal - CreditTotal > 0" evaluated to "True". If you guys can help straighten me out (or "unconfuse" me on this), I will be very grateful. Sincerely, Alan C. Lawhon Huntsville, Alabama _______________________________________________ dba-SQLServer mailing list dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3934 - Release Date: 10/02/11