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<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Comic Sans MS">When you do, it's called "earn while you learn", John. <vbg> Been there, done that in at least 3 different industries not related to computers at all.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Comic Sans MS">Charlotte Foust</FONT>
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<P><FONT FACE="Arial"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">From: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com [</FONT><A HREF="mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">] </FONT><B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">On Behalf Of</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">John W. Colby</FONT></P>
<P><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:11 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">Subject: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Tahoma">RE: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">>To me, an equal score without taking the test also suggests an intuitive learner with great comprehension skills and/or breadth of real-world experience.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Yep. Wouldn't you love to hire "an intuitive learner with great comprehension skills and/or breadth of real-world experience"? Particularly if it were "AND breadth of real-world experience"?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">John W. Colby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Colby Consulting</FONT>
<BR><A HREF="file://www.ColbyConsulting.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">www.ColbyConsulting.com</FONT></U></A>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">From: dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com [</FONT><A HREF="mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:01 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">To: dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Subject: RE: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">John, the tests can ONLY measure one's current knowledge of the limited material in question. To me, an equal score without taking the test also suggests an intuitive learner with great comprehension skills and/or breadth of real-world experience. Perhaps an added point system for non-course takers is needed (not to be confused with a handicap or Affirmative Action)?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Ron Moore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sr. Database Administrator</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Comtech PST Corp.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Melville, NY</FONT>
<BR><A HREF="file://www.comtechpst.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">www.comtechpst.com</FONT></U></A>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">From: dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com [</FONT><A HREF="mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:44 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">To: dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Subject: RE: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I hear what you are saying, but what that implies is that the tests don't measure what a person knows. </FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">If a person knows enough to pass the test, whether or not he took a class, then he knows as much as the person who took the class and got the same score (more or less). </FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Or the tests suck and can't measure what they are supposed to so we will force everybody to take a class since that's the only way to ensure they know the stuff. In which case, why the test?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">John W. Colby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Colby Consulting</FONT>
<BR><A HREF="file://www.ColbyConsulting.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">www.ColbyConsulting.com</FONT></U></A>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">From: dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">[</FONT><A HREF="mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com]On"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com]On</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> Behalf Of Francisco</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">H Tapia</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:37 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">To: dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">FWIW, IMNSHO SQL Server is leaps and bounds over typical Access Database</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">administration. There are DBA's I email with that can script out procedures</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">to take care of a full restore plans in case of a catastrophe. So besides</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">server A going down or HDD 3 of the Log Raid, is down, They often manage a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Farm of SQL Servers that take care of mountains of data. It's one thing to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">know "how" to do something and I have great respect for these DBA's as they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">always seem to have a minute or two to answer any of my "dumb" questions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:oD. I belive the same thing holds true for System Admins... We have a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">"good" System Admin here at my current job, but he is by no means GREAT...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">there are many mistakes he makes and many more things he doesn't know. If</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">for example he were a certified CISCO engineer, perhaps he'd be able to have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">a better idea of subnetting our entire large collision domain network. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">is true for our own in-house Sql Server DBA, poor guy tries his damndest,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">but still comes up short on many DBA specific duties... he is not too</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">familiar for example with SQL backup and restore process... or even SQL</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Server Agent Alerts... ouch!... I am a Programmer/Developer by title, but I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">dabble in everything, from software to hardware.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">-Francisco</FONT>
<BR><A HREF="http://rcm.netfirms.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">http://rcm.netfirms.com</FONT></U></A>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">----- Original Message -----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">From: "John W. Colby" <jcolby@colbyconsulting.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">To: <dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:07 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Subject: RE: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
</P>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Steve,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Whine away, I feel the same way. No, actually knowing how to DO something</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: is not enough!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: What a crock.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: John W. Colby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Colby Consulting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: </FONT><A HREF="file://www.ColbyConsulting.com"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">www.ColbyConsulting.com</FONT></U></A>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: From: dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: [</FONT><A HREF="mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com]On"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">mailto:dba-sqlserver-admin@databaseadvisors.com]On</FONT></U></A><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> Behalf Of Steven W.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Erbach</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:56 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: To: dba-sqlserver@databaseadvisors.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Subject: Re: [dba-SQLServer]MCDBA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Allan,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: I can appreciate the structured learning bit. I was wondering because I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: had a conversation with a good friend who, in the past, always kept up the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: certifications that he had. He seems to be despairing of the cost and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: bother. Unless one is focused very clearly on one skill these days,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: certification can become very expensive very quickly. Some--Cisco, for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: example--require re-certification every two years. I just wonder what that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: buys you once you get it. Continued advancement? Better-paying jobs?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: I looked up MCDBA certification classes in my area and found some being</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: offered by another old friend of mine in the Chicago area. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">certification</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: tests apparently cannot be taken unless one also takes the courses. I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">found</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: that a bit of a put-off.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: I was also curious that, on the Microsoft site, the MCDBA is geared for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: those with big company experience and big servers and big databases.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Somehow</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: I doubt that these required courses offer anything in the way of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">simulation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: of huge databases or multiple platform connections...or do they?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: I've worked with PCs since 1982 and on mainframes for a bit before that,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: back to 1975. It seems demeaning somehow that I cannot take a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">certification</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: test without going through an approved set of courses for which I pay a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: large sum of money. I'm perfectly capable of learning SQL Server--or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: anything else, for that matter--just fine on my own or in connection with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">my</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: client experiences. I guess I'm whining about having to take those</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">courses.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: If I do and if I get an MCDBA, what does it mean?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Steve Erbach</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Scientific Marketing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: Neenah, WI</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">: "Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." - Mark Twain</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT>
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