Gustav Brock
Gustav at cactus.dk
Sat Apr 30 11:36:03 CDT 2005
Hi Shamil Thanks for the comprehensive update! You are absolutely right that much more work could be done across the borders. But that said, it is my impression that an increase is happening, though slowly because of tradition and the time it takes for adopting new habits. A lot of talk has taken place here about the progress in outsourcing programming work to Ukraine, Russia and India, and globalisation is the hot political topic because much labour intense work is moved to our neighbour countries due to the very high rates here. And sure I remember Alexander. What he is experiencing is sadly the behaviour of many large companies acting like they own the World. However, my guess is that he will be able to handle it. The only advice you can get is to either stay off dealing with such companies or be prepared for the worst. /gustav >>> shamil at users.mns.ru 04/30 1:02 am >>> Hi Gustav, Yes, I first thought the original petition on IDL was a serious appeal. Then I found they are kidding this way. Yes, that was a well made joke but these very talented and of course highly skilled IT professionals look like more and more "boiling in their own juice" (Russian ethimological expression). Technology race to feed the "hungry" technology itself. A kind of a self-satisfaction devil. Sad story... I wish I have never programmed on MS Windows and if it ever happens I get a good and longterm contract for Linux/Unix... whatever will interest me professionally and financially and for me to have time to get skilled in the mainstream development on this platforms then I'd not think for a long time to make this transition decision. I did program on IBM 370 for 5+ years then was 5+ years PDP11/RSX-11M, then 5+ years MS DOS and for 10 years now MS Windows - that latter looks like drained too much of my "juice". I need to change that probably. On the other hand the choices are not that large - I don't like Java because its main purpose IMO was and still is to compete with and to "kill" MS Windows platform... > Of course, if the development involves a lot of discussion > with clients for custom applications, the method will not > be effective - these cases demand physical presence. It could still be effective when working with Russians and East Europeans: I did work with Germans and other Western European companies, but Germany is a very representative example I think: - it's well known that the IT-stuff of the German companies(I'm talking about IT companies because I know about them only) - the stuff of them is "migrating" all around the country, often living in expensive hotels, the managerial staff takes just a day long expensive shuttle business trips to every corner of the Germany and other West European and not only West European countries etc. The same happens all over the West Europe - this is how the business works there. You know that better than me. Of course this is Germans and the West Europeans own business to keep and count all that expenses and after all these expenses are good(?) because they pump money all over their countries and don't let their economies "to sleep"... OK, you were talking about physical presence there - if I take the representative IMO sample of German IT business then I could say that expenses to get a developer from Russia there on-site for a short business trip to talk to the customer are usually less than expenses for the German IT-staff.(two way economic class plane ticket is usually cheaper than internal Germany plane trip - this is a proven fact). Well the time is two-three hours more to go there by plane taking into account we need to usually be in airport two hours before departure but for business trips this gap should be possible to minimize I think... And I'm not talking here and I'm not proposing to substitute German IT-stuff by having less expensive overheads Russian staff - I'm talking as I wrote in my previous message about opening the new opportunities because with on average lower overhead expenses and with lower rates the developers from Russia can work based on (because of lower personal income tax rate here and slightly lower life costs for comparable life level) - because of all that the projects, which will never start there because of their high costs, these projects become financially approved and profitable when shared among Western and Russian (West European) staff. But I still see a few (literally none, maybe I'm missing something?) of such joint staff venture companies here where IT-staff works as free and equally respected employees from all over the World based on fair rates based on real European level life costs here (it's less here as I wrote but not a matter of magnitude like one may think) - I don't see that. I could be blind. But I do know (I have heard that by my own ears) that it's a shame there in your countries to pay for high quality work the money, which are good enough just for simple foods and a cheap flat renting, some average quality clothes and a used car spoiling this environment - and (some of/most of) the Western businesses here they don't care about that, closing their eyes on very high exploitation level here and participating in this "unfair game". Yes, I know these Western businesses here are just a small percent of the other serious and fair small- and middle-size businesses, which do not hurry to invest in this economy because of corruption, unclear business rules etc.etc. (this country problems of course) - but while your fair business owners are sleeping there your unfair "colleagues" together with "new Russians" are taking control on this country(wood processing industry is controlled by US, Swedish and some other western countries capitals etc.), exploiting its resources and its people to the max... The most of the people here are getting mad of that, they don't believe nobody anymore, they don't see any hopes for the near better future not only for them but for their children also and the Western businesses here don't make it any better the way they are doing business here when they may think they are a kind of doing charity when giving work to the Russians.... I probably don't understand something in this life and World but the big money rules this world, the young people (my children included despite my efforts, my mistake of course) are spoiled by talking and thinking a way too much than it should have token about money - money is everything here now, a child can't go to good school without money, you can't get good healthcare without money(but even paying good money you can get into a big trouble like e.g I got with teeth implant), you can't get good sports (like tennis) and well equipped fitness without money etc.etc - when one will count all that expenses then the life costs become very high. Of course I can go for sports jogging on the beach and eat porridge and cabbage and walk and use only public transportation - then if I pay all that humble expenses for myself and for my family then the salary, which Alcatel(French-Belgium company branch here) managers are proposing here for a very serious position of their IT stuff - then this will be enough. And they don't get ashamed of that... The state cares little about all that despite all the good words they sometimes say, "new Russians" care little about that, Western businesses here care a little bit more but still far less they care about their stuff in their own countries for comparative work efforts... What I wanted to say by all that hectic stuff above? - I wanted to say maybe it's time to start fair direct business between our countries' peoples, people to people, family to family, business to business, start small and gradually growing big enough, leaving out of the board "old and new Russians", spoiled bureaucrats, officials and politicians and "capitalistic exploitation", playing fair game and paying fair salaries for good work This is possible I'm sure despite the fact one may find me groundless dreamer... There are good money in IT-business here you know. You may ask why then I'm looking for my work there? I will try to explain: It happened this way that I worked here for fifteen years after highschool and I didn't even think to go there where you live when most of my colleagues were leaving and who are still there, forever probably. I wanted to live and work in my homeland. This was uneasy, very uneasy I must say with galloping inflation and empty food shops shelves. Then occasionally I have got a work abroad. This was occasionally, I mean that - I didn't even think this may happen real soon and I didn't try to find my fortune there despite the fact I was already for some time in Internet newsgroups etc. - this was my former colleague who landed me this project who was starting an off-shore development company and they urgently needed of an experienced MS Access programmer there in Germany. I went there and I got the project with the salary ten times higher than I was making here that time (the prices difference between West Europe and Russia was quite high that time - this difference is almost zero now, except gasoline and flat rents for average block houses flats). So I got this project and I got into an international team and here where I found what free (German) world in IT-software house means. That was very similar to what we had here in Soviet times (believe me! I mean the way people work as we worked here before Perestroika/Glasnost (I was a computer science researcher/developer in Technical University) - we worked well, I'm working the same way/quality now - many my western colleagues find this is a very good work) except that they were paying good money for the good work done, good enough to get everywhere in this World one may wish (that time I first time in my life went to the tourist trip with family to Egypt), good enough to have free time between projects looking for and trying to land another project etc. And this was the time when I decided that this should be the way how it should work here in Russia too. And I still think it's possible to make it this way. I see here these "hungry for the good and well paid work" eyes of young people and not that young people and I can say this people here can do a lot when they treated fair way but most of them don't believe this is possible at all without leaving this country forever because of all what happened with this country during the last centuries and especially during last 20 years of communism fall and the wild capitalism "growth"... So there are good money in IT-businesses here. In big IT-businesses and projects. But I'm not in this camp. And I didn't try to get into it because the game they play is rarely fair here. They are often pumping money between bank accounts for very little work done signing fake projects. When good work done then the money are paid not to the people who did the main work but to all kinds of business owners, managers and consultants doing a few, if any useful work etc. And (sometimes a big share) goes to "the left" - these are bribes, gifts, presents to land another large project with so little useful output and so big money paid. This is how it often happens here... ...but with well developed and effective joint small-/midlle-size business there and here there are good chances to enter this well paid IT-business market here. And to start to play and work using the fair game rules only. You may get the good profits, immensive market, the best developers here and you'll change a little this spoiled world to the better. Isn't that a good goal?... ...and today's small IT-software programming businesses, a few of them here, they are just balancing on zero level because of high software piracy level and because there is no good enough demand on custom software here because average salaries are small and so in many jobs, which are usually automated there in your countries it's more financially profitable to use "man power" than a computer program - so there is no the small custom software programming business here, well paid business I mean (I did check that when was trying to find a job here - I did check that in the main recruitment agency of this city and they know the existing job market in details). So the business area where most of you work there and the business where I could have worked in the case it existed here - it's just absent, it doesn't exist here. This is why I'm working on the Add-ins for the Netherlands company, this is why I did write a program for the Belgian Federal Road Police, this is why I'm trying to find other projects via Internet... I don't want to leave this country. I wanted to live here, work and travel worldwide, live for a while there, talk to the customer/business partners there, invite you here, talk together to the customers here etc. I think this is possible. All costs included on my dreams above come true and based on less than usual for the same quality work there rate if staying mainly here. And without getting your jobs off-shore making higher your own unemployment rate. But by opening new business opportunities for your and my business, your and my country people. Working directly. Business to business. Making real life everyday work.... Best regards, Shamil P.S. BTW, Gustav, Alexander, do you remember him?, the big payroll/HRM software author and a small software company owner, he is "fighting" with one American recruitment company here (this is a huge worldwide international with American headquarters recruitement comany), which uses his software. They do not want to pay the fair price for this high quality software but the chances they quit are low I think - they got hooked with this his software, they need and so they are just trying to trade pennies from the huge profits they are getting here (e.g. if Alcatel or Interl or Sun hire via this company a skilled IT-professional they would have gotten for this "head" and just this head only a little bit less than Alexander wanted to charge them for one year support (and they sells hundreds or more of such "heads" per year) - is that a fair business of this Amercian company?(one should have seen the rooms they have their staff working in...) I don't think it's fair but as I see the unfair rules can be changed and are changing even here when strong and wise players like Alexander are getting in this market with real applications, which make the difference and which create the new opportunities... -- Web: http://smsconsulting.spb.ru/shamil_s ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gustav Brock" <Gustav at cactus.dk> To: <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] OT: Friday Humor: A new petition to supportoutdated(?)technologies... > Hi Shamil > > I don't find this OT, on the contrary very relevant. > > It's right that software doesn't get worn out - thus, to state that > some software has turned bad just because something new is available, is > wrong. What matters is if it runs stable and at acceptable speed and if > it interfaces easily if that is needed (which, by the way, in my > experience is the typical reason for obsoleting an application). > > As to "off-shore development" - we just call it outsourcing here - it > is perfectly acceptable for jobs where human interaction is not that > important. My son in law gets zope programming done in India and I'm > convinced we will experience much more of such cross boarder development > - as your helper add-ins project demonstrates. Of course, if the > development involves a lot of discussion with clients for custom > applications, the method will not be effective - these cases demand > physical presence. > > /gustav > > > >>> shamil at users.mns.ru 04/29 2:01 pm >>> > Hi All, > > I'm a kind of changing my profession (:)) and I'm asking for your > opinion of > this my first try to write a humoristic and slightly (hopefully > slightly > only) sarcastic text - please go here if you have time: > > http://smsconsulting.spb.ru/shamil_s/idlpetit.htm > > and have a look and send me, please, your feedback privately > > Any feedback is very welcome! > > Honestly, I'm looking for setting long-term partnerships with > somebody. > > The recent my programming works are here: > > http://www.code-vb.com/download.htm > (Help Generator set of Add-ins). > > No, I'm not trying to promote this stuff for you to purchase it - I'm > just > referring > it to show what was done here recently, off-shore, without any phone > talks, > any business trips - just using e-mail ping-pong and in urgent cases > MS > Messenger chatting to send short specs and to get back developed > software. > > Yes, I know, off-shore development isn't in favor there. > Should I leave my homeland and go there to maybe have better life and > to > compete for the jobs with you there at your home? > Yes, the chances to land a better job look much higher in this > case(statistics) but I think I can do some very good stuff here, which > I > will not be able to do there because it will cost more because of the > higher > life costs and the higher taxes rates there. > Therefore, IMO, my off-shore development proposal is a fair business > proposal because I'm not going "sitting here" to compete with you > there > using "dirt-cheap" dumping rates but I'm going to compete by proposing > slightly lower rates, which will open opportunities, which in other > cases > will not be opened at all because they will be financially > meaningless... > So, I propose to get into longterm cooperation to assist you in your > business and for you to assist me in my off-shore development > freelance > business... > > Thank you, > Shamil > > P.S. Crossposted to Dba-OT. Will it reach it or not, I'm unsure about > that, > if it will reach, please, don't reply on this message there in DBA-OT, > please, send me your feedback privately because I'm not reading DBA-OT > these > days....