Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at users.mns.ru
Sat Aug 6 05:46:07 CDT 2005
<<< Unfortunately that does not bode well for your "high priced overseas" idea either. >>> My(?) idea is not "high priced overseas" but "reasonably priced overseas" against what I see and what I'd call "abusive priced overseas" with real money going to all kinds of mediators and managers controlling "semi-slave but effective(?) overseas programmers workforce"... Hopefully Andy will not find this thread as off-topic because the rates we are working at as software programmers professionals all over the World - this question is really a technical question in the sense that reasonable fair rates create fair competition and what happens now as I see it - this is more using advantages of developed world to abuse developing countries than to give the people of developing countries real opportunities and involve them in free Worldwide competition where only experience and talent what really matters. I know that sounds idealistic, sorry (I know Hindman will not agree - I understand his position). So I'm for reasonably priced overseas or Worldwide programmers market, which I'm sure will create a lot of new opportunities to you there and which will not "suck and steal" some of your jobs from there and from here - will not "leak"(that much) the most talented people grown and educated here as it happens now... I do believe this fair market will be created sooner or later and I wish it happened sooner for me to have opportunity to work in it.... And I wanted to invite you to work on this market foundations together for mutual advantage for us and for the coming generations...( I know it sounds pathetic, sorry) Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Colby" <jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com> To: "'Discussion of Hardware and Software issues'" <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 1:37 AM Subject: RE: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the highnotes... > I think the answer in part lies in the fact that a lot of software is > written for "in house" applications, where the total number of seats is > fixed and rather low. For example, my clients hire me to write custom apps > for small companies. Anywhere from 3 to 40 or 50 users. The "hope" is > that doing it in a "dirt cheap" market will lower the total cost. From what > I have seen, this simply doesn't work as expected for software due to a host > of reasons. Things like call centers can be quite easily sent overseas, but > programming is a lot of handholding, a lot of "face to face" meetings to > discuss how the thing REALLY works etc. Unfortunately that does not bode > well for your "high priced overseas" idea either. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: > http://folding.stanford.edu/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 5:13 PM > To: !dba-Tech > Subject: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the high notes... > > > Hi All, > > Do you agree with this article/statement? > > "... So, why isn't there room in the software industry for a low cost > provider, someone who uses the cheapest programmers available? (Remind me to > ask Quark how that whole fire-everybody-and-hire-low-cost-replacements plan > is working.) Here's why: duplication of software is free. That means that > the cost of programmers is spread out over all the copies of the software > you sell. With software, you can improve quality without adding to the > incremental cost of each unit sold. > > Essentially, design adds value faster than it adds cost...." > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html > > (I'm curios how you feel about that living there in rather well paid for > programmers' work countries as far as I have heard and seen because I'm a > kind of (alone) indirectly fighting with low cost programmers army here in > my country when I'm trying to get work here at rates, which allow to keep my > big family well and I'm also trying to stay straight against "dirt cheap" > programmers from India, East Europe (yes, Russia too of course), China, > Latin America etc competing for the projects on Internet sites like > RentACoder. Not easy excersize I must say. Unfortunately I don't have > enough real samples of the code of my competitors to say that cheap > programmers can't be good by definition. With some rare exceptions, which > only prove this rule. Am I wrong that cheap programmers can't be good? - if > I'm wrong and if Joel is wrong then for me this means that programming > profession will soon die even there in your countries under the pressure of > "dirt cheap" Eastern and Latin America programmers' dumping rates forcing > most of software programming to go off-shore...) > > This another article from Joel is also interesting I think: > > "Rub a dub dub" http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html > > Shamil > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com