Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at users.mns.ru
Sat Aug 6 08:37:01 CDT 2005
Thank you Arthur! I must say I have a few friends as talented as you are and your opinion is very important for me! > But I think that in at least a couple of areas you have made some > serious errors in your analysis, my friend Shamil. But , I didn't get what are these serious mistakes - probably I'm not that smart as you think I'm! :) > 1. Young kids come out of school full of hormones... I think I still have some hormones :) - I have my own four years old kid and I like to play with him in spare time :) And two elder kids are 19 and 17 years old - yes, I think I have saved some hormones despite all that troubles of living in the past in totalitarian country and despite all that troubles, which wild capitalism brought here etc. >... and enthusiasm I'm still enthusiastic (well, I know what burn-out is, I know it well too) - I must say I'm surprised where I do get the strength for this enthusiasm - probably communistic education creates some very strong foundations for groundless(?) enthusiasm, which can't be spoiled by wild capitalism :) Maybe this is just a "thirst to live", which can't be broken nor by communism nor by wild capitalism... And I'm still able to write as much code as I was able to write when I was 25 years old and even more and I do think I know 100+ times more now(well, maybe 20+ times more only - 1 time more for every year of my programming experience ) and I do less mistakes and based on my experience I can generate a lot of code and docs and specs and designs where most of the young people have to type all that manually or have nothing to propose or will not do it the right way from the first time because they still to find/to learn about all the tips&tricks I know about from my experience... > The point being, Shamil, that nothing NOTHING beats experience. Yes, I agree, and I do think the same and I do try to prove/approve that by my work but I have seen a lot of people(/high level managers) who are hunting for miracles and who think that "low priced programmers can create good high priced software products" - I often see the opposite - still "the army of the free cheese hunters" is growing as far as I see: real life example - Alcatel programming center here - I did talk to their chief technical manager (French man) last autumn - it's just so ridiculous what I have heard - the key technical position of this company's software branch here, with a lot of responsibilities - the proposed salary wasn't enough to keep well my family (and by keeping well, I'm not mentioning a salary letting me to buy a good new car, or to go on good vacation twice a year for two weeks or getting bank credit for the good home - but the salary they proposed was just to balance on zero level provided I have already where to live with my family - and even for the young people - the salary they propose ISN'T enough to get bank credit to buy a small flat here- what is that if not abuse and hunting for miracles? I don' believe they can make something good, I can be wrong of course, but as far as I get this is a shame on the West to pay not good enough for (at least) the key company's job positions if this company pretends to be respectful by its own employees and by their customers... > From a manager's point of view (not that I am always in that role, but that > is beside the point), my most important priority is "Get it Done." > Additional priorities include "On Time" and "On Budget". Yes, I know this "mantra": make me this I don't know yet what I want you to make me but do it on fixed time and budget - usual story there too, isn't? Of course I'm always trying to get work done on time and on agreed upon budget - but in programming the expected in the beginning project duration is a "mythical" value and have to be constantly corrected(usually enlarged) as the most experienced in this industry authors write... > And there is one more thing. If your clients reside in St. Petersburg then > you can face-to-face them, which someone in Beijing or Athens or Cairo > cannot do, at least not as inexpensively. Arthur, this isn't generally true, I think. The problem is the lack of experience and will - on your (West) side of the World there are a few people willing to work with professionals living on East here based on reasonable not "dirt cheap" rates. I know there is no probably still high/any economical need on your side to work this way on a broad range. And meanwhile all kinds of "abusers" fill this niche and when eastern programmers don't have any other opportunity they have to go dumping "dirt cheap" just to survive physically (is there any need/sense in this physical survival - let's leave this question out of this technical discussion)... I do know it can be profitable and mutually advantageous this overseas "virtual face-to-face" work based on reasonable rates. I have my own experience of this work (when I have this work) - I see such examples on RentACoder - there are people(coders) from States and Canada and West Europe there who do work based on good rates but when somebody from Russia, or Romania or other East countries bid there - the customers - imagine that! - they say/advise you you should prove you can do work and you should start "dirt cheap" - experience doesn't matter there when you start without a track of records of the work on RentACoder and if you are from East countries - what is that is not spoiled by "dirt cheap" programmers customers?... Well, I did break a little this general opinion - I did start from scratch there and I did get a project for USD777 for expected one week of work(not bad for starters there) in the area where I didn't have almost any experience and I did make it. Of course in the end the rate wasn't high because the worktime was underevaluated as usual. But this work allowed me to get experience in the area where I didn't have almost any and I was paid for that! Not bad after all. And as customer said me I overbid competing lower bids like USD500 because I did explain what and how I will do and asked right questions - and that all in the area where I didn't have experience - so all that bidding and asking was based on intuition and experience from other areas... I do hope that RentACoder will let me to find real customers ready to work based on reasonable moderate rates because this will open them new opportunities and it will bring them good profit and it will let me to not feel abused, do very good work for them and to keep my family well without leaving this wonderland Russia. Meanwhile I keep RentACoder as a good "training center" reserve where I can get new experience working on real life projects and where I will be paid for my getting this new experience.... And there is rather high rates based growing local programming market here - the rates are as high as USD800/day company to company or even higher as far as I have heard from real sources. But this market as many markets here is corrupted - I do keep trying to enter it proposing good work against corruption and generally bad attitude to programmers - I did make this attempt last month - if I will get all the money, which I did claim for this project(reasonable rates not as high as USD800/day(yet) of course) and if this work will have continuation - then it will be another proof of what you say that "NOTHING beats experience." even corruption... Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Fuller" <artful at rogers.com> To: "'Discussion of Hardware and Software issues'" <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 3:52 AM Subject: RE: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the highnotes... > An interesting missive, not surprising from one of the smartest persons on > this list. But I think that in at least a couple of areas you have made some > serious errors in your analysis, my friend Shamil. > > 1. Young kids come out of school full of hormones and enthusiasm and empty > of any sense of business requirements. (In general.) Given an assignment > they can code it adequately and even well, but asked to come up with a > design for 400 tables, there are only two chances they'll get it right -- a > fat one and a slim one. > > 2. Add to this problem the knowledge or lack thereof of business of someone > in another country (any country will do -- for example, even a US programmer > will have trouble with CDN conventions -- Hindman aside of course). Way up > here in the cold we sign debits as positive and credits as negative. Perhaps > it's all the icebergs that caused this. > > The point being, Shamil, that nothing NOTHING beats experience. You have > demonstrated countless times your virtuosity to this group. Use any of us as > references. I personally have subcontracted you and was extremely happy with > the results. I am quite confident that many other listers will attest to > your skills, even if they haven't actually hired you. > > I contracted you to do a specific thing that I was not confident that I knew > how to do. You did it. Your bill was reasonable, I used the code, the client > liked it (I took all the credit of course), and that was that. > > You can hire cheap or you can hire good. Worse, you can hire expensive that > poses as good. If you make this mistake you get a blemish on your resume > that lasts forever. > > Of course this all could be the rationalizations of an old fart who was once > a young Turk. But this argument seems to work with various clients. I recall > a case where one of the stakeholders mentioned MTBF and I know what it > means. I suggested that we add a function to the program to email the > clients when the given MTBF was about a month away. Now perhaps this is more > a statement about the client than about my perspicacity, but that is neither > here nor there. The point is that a long time ago I learned what MTBF means > and an opportunity came up to re-use the knowledge. THAT is the point of > experience. That is what you can market that the young (regardless how > talented) cannot bring to the table -- and more so if they reside in another > nation. > > And there is one more thing. If your clients reside in St. Petersburg then > you can face-to-face them, which someone in Beijing or Athens or Cairo > cannot do, at least not as inexpensively. Much as I love to work from my > home, there is something to be said for face-to-face. > > So, my friend Shamil, you bring to the table three very important things: 1. > experience. 2. breadth. 3. brilliance. > > Given the sort of assignment that I last gave you, I would choose you in a > New York minute over someone 25 years old with no visible track record, even > though your price might be 5 times his. Why? 1. You have demonstrated that > you can do it. 2. You have a web site and abundant examples of your code to > prove it. 3. Your command of English is excellent and my command of Russian > is non-existent. > > >From a manager's point of view (not that I am always in that role, but that > is beside the point), my most important priority is "Get it Done." > Additional priorites include "On Time" and "On Budget". If I hit all three > bases, I and everyone above me are in Biscuit City. If I fail on one, I get > a blemish. Two, a scar. Three, it's time to look for a new employer. > > I can safely say that of all the numerous talented people I have met thanks > to this list, you dazzle me. This is not a love letter, just a statement of > where I personally think you stand in the world of developers I know. I > hired you once. You delivered, on time and on budget. The code worked. > > Enough said. > > Arthur > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: August 5, 2005 5:13 PM > To: !dba-Tech > Subject: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the high notes... > > Hi All, > > Do you agree with this article/statement? > > "... So, why isn't there room in the software industry for a low cost > provider, someone who uses the cheapest programmers available? (Remind me to > ask Quark how that whole fire-everybody-and-hire-low-cost-replacements plan > is working.) > Here's why: duplication of software is free. That means that the cost of > programmers is spread out over all the copies of the software you sell. With > software, you can improve quality without adding to the incremental cost of > each unit sold. > > Essentially, design adds value faster than it adds cost...." > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html > > (I'm curios how you feel about that living there in rather well paid for > programmers' work countries as far as I have heard and seen because I'm a > kind of (alone) indirectly fighting with low cost programmers army here in > my country when I'm trying to get work here at rates, which allow to keep my > big family well and I'm also trying to stay straight against "dirt cheap" > programmers from India, East Europe (yes, Russia too of course), China, > Latin America etc competing for the projects on Internet sites like > RentACoder. Not easy excersize I must say. Unfortunately I don't have > enough real samples of the code of my competitors to say that cheap > programmers can't be good by definition. With some rare exceptions, which > only prove this rule. Am I wrong that cheap programmers can't be good? - if > I'm wrong and if Joel is wrong then for me this means that programming > profession will soon die even there in your countries under the pressure of > "dirt cheap" Eastern and Latin America programmers' dumping rates forcing > most of software programming to go off-shore...) > > This another article from Joel is also interesting I think: > > "Rub a dub dub" > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000348.html > > Shamil > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com