From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 4 07:24:29 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:24:29 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform Message-ID: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 09:07:59 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:07:59 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003040707x505c97f3ja15514f5440d37c1@mail.gmail.com> This site: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/?lang=cs#master has a bunch of excellent tutorials, with several on master/detail forms. Doug On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:24 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out > how to do that in C#, > probably using a DataGridView as the subform. > > I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do > the parent/child link > thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the > child table. Basically I > want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the > subform automatically > display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / > child table. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 4 10:45:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:45:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: There are a variety of ways to do it, John. The simplest I've found is to create a usercontrol with whatever controls I need on it, grid, listview, textboxes, whatever. The usercontrol usually has a public method called FillData with arguments for the values needed to sync the usercontrol to the parent form. When we use FillData, the subform fills its own datasource using the arguments passed in. This acts pretty much like the master/child links in Access. An alternative is to fill the dataset at the parent form and simply pass a datarow to the usercontrol. Or possibly the entire dataset if you're using a grid. You would only do that when the subform is causing changes to the parent form because they share fields. Not an ideal situation but one that happens sometimes. We most commonly run into the need when we have a grid that includes a button to popup a child form. Since changes to the child form also changes the data displayed in the grid (which shows a subset of information), we pass the datarow to the child form so that the changes are automatically made as if a ByRef were being used. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:24 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 13:21:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:21:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view Message-ID: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:19:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: UPDATE vSplitZip SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:39:05 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:39:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From drawbridgej at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 5 15:30:34 2010 From: drawbridgej at sympatico.ca (Jack and Pat) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, Glad you solved it. I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = Right([zip9],4); jack -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:39 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.; Sqlserver-Dba Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2723 - Release Date: 03/05/10 02:34:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 16:00:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:00:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B917EF6.6050607@colbyconsulting.com> Jack, That would, in this specific case, because in this case everything is contained in a single table. I am trying to solve a larger problem however which is that I often have to do updates to views where I am joining table A to Table B On PKID and then updating tableA.FieldA = TableB.FieldA. I am not a SQL guru and I do not play one on TV, but the only way I know how to do that is to save the query as a view, then update the view. By learning how to use Common Table Expressions (CTEs), I can create the view "in memory" and update it right then and there. What I used to do was create the query in code, then save the query (as a view) in code, then update the saved view in code. The issue I ran into is that TSQL didn't like to save a query using the DBName.Dbo.Viewname syntax. IOW the stored procedure doing all of this had to be stored in and executed from the database that the view would be saved in. I am trying to create a library of stored procedures that can be run against any database and stored in a "library" database. This CTE thingie provides me with that "indirection". John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jack and Pat wrote: > John, > Glad you solved it. > > I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > > UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = > Right([zip9],4); > > jack From raibeart at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 11:29:31 2010 From: raibeart at gmail.com (Robert Stewart) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:29:31 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] dba-VB Digest, Vol 77, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b93e26a.5644f10a.1ac0.0e83@mx.google.com> That is the correct and simple way of doing it Jack. At 12:00 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 >From: "Jack and Pat" >Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view >To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming > issues.'" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >John, >Glad you solved it. > >I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > >UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = >Right([zip9],4); > >jack From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 16:18:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx Message-ID: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 8 18:06:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John: That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short sighted.) Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 22:08:34 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:08:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B95C9C2.3060505@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, not at all. They need something to spend their time on. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the > industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the > universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short > sighted.) > > Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx > > An interesting read > > http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 14:47:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:47:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Message-ID: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in version control. But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like file://F:/Repositories It gives an error Repository is not available unable to open an ra_local session to URL Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to the server. I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked in, the rest refuse. Has anyone run into / solved this problem? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 15:04:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:04:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 16:35:38 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:35:38 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it just seems to work :-) Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches with shared projects every time. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 18:57:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:57:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 19:11:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:11:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D57@ddi-01.DDI.local> Not yet, I may be starting a new SQL based project soon so I'll give it a go then. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/11/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 07:34:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Message-ID: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. First of all, it ain't fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or clean install over it. Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding smoothly. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 07:42:30 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:42:30 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 10:26:17 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:26:17 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:15:37 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 11:36:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that > was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access > etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and > 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not > work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >> back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:58:41 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:58:41 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6B1635AA335E48D6A28B41F5D6443CDA@Server> If you, for example, download DNN from here :http://www.microsoft.com/web/gallery/Default.aspx You get tons of tools with it incl SQL Server 2008 etc but no management stuff. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:36 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and > that was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, > access etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both > 2008 and 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will > not work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server >> awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server >> Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:10:50 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003111110i6a9a3d2fi896b06b0ad72682e@mail.gmail.com> What issues are you seeing? I deal with .Net 2005/SQLCE3.0 and .Net2008/SQLCE3.5 and the two aren't compatible with each other. .Net2008 wont read a SQLCE3.0 database and vice versa. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:36 AM, jwcolby wrote: > 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. ?And I too ran around in circles looking for an express > edition of 2008. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: >> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? >> >> I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that >> was incompatible... >> >> No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the >> management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access >> etc, that sort of thing. >> >> Max >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and >> 2005. >> >> Charlotte Foust >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not >> work in 2008. >> >> Not absolutely sure about that, but... >> >> max >> >> >> On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> Well THAT was a PITA. ?I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >>> back. ?Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >>> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >>> ?So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev >> laptop. >>> ?First of all, it ain't >>> fast. ?Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. ?In >>> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >>> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >>> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >>> clean install over it. >>> >>> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >>> smoothly. >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:32:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen Message-ID: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:35:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:35:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Never mind John, As least your c# is coming on a-pace. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:42:24 2010 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:42:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is awesome. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:51:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and > writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, > mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup > was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of > my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back > out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do > that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using > the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that > working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files > in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to > begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a > largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right > service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one > last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a > query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have > restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:53:41 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B995855.60105@colbyconsulting.com> With 2008 developer edition, backup compression is built-in so I don't really need anything any more. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 14:56:00 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:48:25 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:48:25 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com><5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: Thanks Charlotte, Why didn't MS say that on their forum!! They have "experts" posting there telling people to use the 2005 tools. If you want to know anything, come to AccessD. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:56 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:51:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:51:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com><2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I am going to learn PowerBasic next. Once I have finished the Blat Form program (and that is nearly there) I want to put it into an .exe and from what I read on the PB site, it should be pretty straight forward with their Forms module. I did Quick Basic (Qbasic) some years back and that was very powerful without a too steep learning curve. C# is OTT for my needs. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) > and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my > databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free > backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get > all of my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them > back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# > code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able > to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the > Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have > that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of > reading the files in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor > to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I > discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the > right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the > services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset > of file names in a query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will > have restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 16:54:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:54:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: <4B9AC643.2060203@colbyconsulting.com> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 22:51:00 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:51:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# inheritance - first foray Message-ID: <4B9B19B4.204@colbyconsulting.com> Tonight I made my first foray into doing my own base class and inheriting that, as opposed to inheriting a base class from the framework, which I have done many times. I had designed a class which implemented my stored procedure widget. Basically the what and why was that I wanted to absolutely standardize the names and data types of a set of parameters that I pass to my stored procedures in SQL Server. I developed a fair number of SPs over a couple of years. I didn't check back (for naming conventions) to previous SPs as I developed the next so I ended up with the "same" variable named many different things. @FieldName and @FldName, @TableName and @tblName etc. Once I started trying to drive them from C# is became a PITA because the name passed in from C# must exactly match the name in the SP definition line. Thus I started defining a standard out in my C# code and rebuilding the SPs as I encountered errors trying to run the SPs. Code like: public void paramDBName(string lstrDBName) { sCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter( "@DBName", SqlDbType.VarChar, 50)); sCmd.Parameters["@DBName"].Value = lstrDBName; } and public void paramErrorDesc() { base.pCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter("@ErrorDesc", System.Data.SqlDbType.VarChar, 4000)); base.pCmd.Parameters["@ErrorDesc"].Direction = System.Data.ParameterDirection.Output; } This effectively "hard codes" the parameter name, but allows easy passing of the value going into that parameter, or defining the direction if it is a value coming back. I have about 20 of these parameters. So fine I did that. Then I defined the command object, initialization code, variables to allow me to capture the time required to execute the SP, code to log the fact that the sp executed etc. This worked great for my "generic" SPs. Except that I eventually wanted to define some specific parameters for stored procedures used for purposed processes, such as backup / restore. But I still wanted the code surrounding the command object to be standard. So tonight I started carving that "class header" kind of stuff out into a base class, and inheriting that in the child classes. It is interesting what you have to go through to make it happen. I seem to have the main class that I carved apart working, now I have to go into the other classes and carve out the header stuff and have them inherit the base class. It is also interesting working with projects within a solution. The main clsStoredProcedure is out in its own project under the solution and has to be added under references etc. Learning C# has been a journey, and I haven't gotten all that far along the road. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 02:59:26 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:59:26 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 05:48:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:48:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9B7B79.4040205@colbyconsulting.com> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 08:40:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:40:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John So now you are a lucky man! Red indicates conflicts or errors. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 09:59:52 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9BB678.1040503@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 10:07:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:07:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:39 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:16:39 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > > >Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 11:25:03 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:25:03 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi David Yes, it will bring up the two files showing the parts where they differ and let you pick and choose which parts to keep. /gustav >>> davidmcafee at gmail.com 13-03-2010 17:16 >>> If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Sat Mar 13 11:53:48 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:53:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> "if you are a little confused" ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gustav Brock" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM To: Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > Hi John > > Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > may happen if you are a little confused. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > > I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different > machines, and so far it is just me. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >> assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 12:09:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working copy on my laptop. If anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the server to get a fresh copy. I have wanted to do this for a long time. The obvious next question is... Access? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com William Hindman wrote: > "if you are a little confused" > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gustav Brock" > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > >> Hi John >> >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation >> may happen if you are a little confused. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? >> >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different >> machines, and so far it is just me. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> So now you are a lucky man! >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >>> assume. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> >>> >>> Gustav Brock wrote: >>>> Hi John >>>> >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>>> >>>> /gustav >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 08:35:03 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:35:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 09:00:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:00:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 10:18:21 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. Careful, there, John. GRrrrr Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 10:49:39 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:49:39 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9E5713.7090808@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: >> filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > Careful, there, John. GRrrrr > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. > > "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by > the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Dan Waters wrote: >> http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx >> >> This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality >> differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. >> For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the >> preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's >> easier to read. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 15 15:06:43 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:06:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Mon Mar 15 15:52:10 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:52:10 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 16:00:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:00:35 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <288F1A0CAAB44D76BC2A5F8F8B418314@Server> Perhaps, if (and only if) they had dropped the stupid curly brances which is not "normal" in a language no matter what the origin. If the structure of functions and commands did not have meaningless clutter. Unnecessary and unwanted and serve no purpose other than obfuscation. 2p Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Mon Mar 15 16:51:08 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 15 17:13:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:13:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: , <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:25:47 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Mon Mar 15 17:40:24 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:40:24 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:49:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list Message-ID: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a list of zips. I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, this would narrow things down pretty well. So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. Does that make sense. OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't know where to find that, though I will Google more. Anyway... I ran out and found C# code to perform that calculation. It would be NICE to do this in TSQL in a query right inside of SQL Server. I found code for both. Ain't the internet GRAND? The C# code: // Calculate Distance in Milesdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625); // Calculate Distance in Kilometersdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers); //GeoCodeCalc C# Class: public static class GeoCodeCalc{ public const double EarthRadiusInMiles = 3956.0; public const double EarthRadiusInKilometers = 6367.0; public static double ToRadian(double val) { return val * (Math.PI / 180); } public static double DiffRadian(double val1, double val2) { return ToRadian(val2) - ToRadian(val1); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. Defaults to using Miles. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2) { return CalcDistance(lat1, lng1, lat2, lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Miles); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement m) { double radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInMiles; if (m == GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers) { radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInKilometers; } return radius * 2 * Math.Asin( Math.Min(1, Math.Sqrt( ( Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lat1, lat2)) / 2.0), 2.0) + Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat1)) * Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat2)) * Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lng1, lng2)) / 2.0), 2.0) ) ) ) ); } } public enum GeoCodeCalcMeasurement : int { Miles = 0, Kilometers = 1 } The TSQL code: Create Function [dbo].[fnGetDistance] ( @Lat1 Float(18), @Long1 Float(18), @Lat2 Float(18), @Long2 Float(18), @ReturnType VarChar(10) ) Returns Float(18) AS Begin Declare @R Float(8); Declare @dLat Float(18); Declare @dLon Float(18); Declare @a Float(18); Declare @c Float(18); Declare @d Float(18); Set @R = Case @ReturnType When 'Miles' Then 3956.55 When 'Kilometers' Then 6367.45 When 'Feet' Then 20890584 When 'Meters' Then 6367450 Else 20890584 -- Default feet (Garmin rel elev) End Set @dLat = Radians(@lat2 - @lat1); Set @dLon = Radians(@long2 - @long1); Set @a = Sin(@dLat / 2) * Sin(@dLat / 2) + Cos(Radians(@lat1)) * Cos(Radians(@lat2)) * Sin(@dLon / 2) * Sin(@dLon / 2); Set @c = 2 * Asin(Min(Sqrt(@a))); Set @d = @R * @c; Return @d; End -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:50:17 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:50:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: "over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework." jc ...exactly ...as I said earlier in this thread, the ONLY reasons I'm investing time in C# are: 1: Potential employers give far more respect to C# than they do to VB/VBA ...like it or not, its true 2: There is one HELL of a lot more sample code for .net in C# than there is in VB ...again, like it or not, its true William -------------------------------------------------- From: "jwcolby" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next > line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# > really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two > >different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case > insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't > LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and > the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if > you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" > is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a > doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT > easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you > are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more > keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to > mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier > and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and > whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to > become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW > the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB > syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and > other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the >> person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI >> Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >> the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic >> or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, >> dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:53:34 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:53:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 18:12:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9EBED9.1070200@colbyconsulting.com> I am just explaining what the ; does. It is not valid nor invalid, just the facts ma'm. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 18:44:59 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:44:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 19:03:53 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:03:53 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. ?I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. ?It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 19:37:51 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:37:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 20:01:13 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:01:13 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9ED859.6050204@colbyconsulting.com> Likewise, ATM. However unlike you I am still young enough that I probably will eventually. It is best for me to prepare. In the end C# has not been so bad. Yes, VB would have been easier but not enough so to lose potential clients (or sleep) over. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. > > C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. > > I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" > something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. > > I need to stop thinking that way. > > It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of > using the GUI. > > I'm so glad I finally did! > > D > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 21:53:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:53:00 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:37:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:37:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:48:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:48:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:21:34 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:21:34 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:23:44 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:23:44 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 16 03:55:39 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:55:39 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 05:17:12 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:17:12 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But I do Gustav, When I am writing a financial proposal I put it in financial terms using standard terminology and laid out in a specific way. When I am writing a medical case for funding I put it in medical terminology and laid out in a specific way. etc etc But in all cases, I am using plain language, not interspersed with unnecessary hieroglyphics which are only there because the people who wrote the particular compilers for that language wished it to be so, not because it is necessary- you have only to look at other languages written for other compilers to know that is so. Take Stuart's PB. That is an excellent example of easy to read, high level code which compiles down to executable code - no P code etc. The reason I, and many other people, use Access is because of the RAD that it comes with. Thanks for the F# link, that is very interesting. max On 16 March 2010 08:55, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Max > > > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and > write. > > But to you F# must smell like honey: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) > > /gustav > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 06:04:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:04:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Message-ID: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. You might try to use netCOBOL: http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview Thank you. --Shamil P.S. <<< why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? >>> Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan <<< skip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:21:01 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:21:01 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Horses for Courses, Shamil > > None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are > "good" > things. > > 1. Case should be indifferent. > 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in > programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus > reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal > indentation serves the same purposes. > 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the > same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the > wrong > result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can > understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end > of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by > convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a > different matter entirely. > > Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and > verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity. > > When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from > masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Max -- > > Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally > approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the > following declarations: > > 1) string _temp; > 2) string temp; > 3) string Temp; > > are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - > they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good > programmers' > hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull > using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages > do... > > "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but > by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can > easily get similar > kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good > (unit) testing... > > "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" > as > I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', > methods', ... code lines... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Except for one thing Jim, > > Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is > diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in > logic and in implementation. > > Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it > was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting > somewhere over norther Nebraska. > > Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure > text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". > KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). > > > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so > what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who > cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are > always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does > a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who > cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > <<< skip >>> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:54:03 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:54:03 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 06:59:01 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:59:01 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Of the top of my head: Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator I degree at equator = 69.172 5 / 69.172 = .07228 So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > list of zips. > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > Does that make sense. > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > know where to find that, though I will Google more. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:01:55 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:01:55 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > <<< snip >>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:16:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:16:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000401cac502$91e8a5b0$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) <<< Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs >>> Niklaus Wirth's book (http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/books/AlgorithmE0/) was one of my first books on generic principles of programming together with Knuth's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming But that was 20th century, and we're in 21st one now. And nowadays "slogan" is "Objects + Messages = Programs" call it OOP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming) or not - it's rather different approach to Niklaus Wirth's classics... I could be missing something but IMO modern projects having hundreds of thousands/millions of code lines can't be developed and supported economically effective way by using 20-ieth century ideas... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:20:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:20:38 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 07:40:35 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:40:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Public Dan Response() If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. Fortunately, I can write code without them. End Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 07:44:53 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:44:53 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 07:47:35 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:47:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com>, <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4B9F7DE7.23980.10B22AFD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> That's what you get for "off the top of the head" :-( It should be: LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- .07228 / cosine(LatY) -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 21:59, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Of the top of my head: > > Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator > I degree at equator = 69.172 > 5 / 69.172 = .07228 > > So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY > if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 > > -- > Stuart > > > On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > > > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > > list of zips. > > > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > > Does that make sense. > > > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > > know where to find that, though I will Google more. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:57:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F8057.9030908@colbyconsulting.com> > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. No you wouldn't. The parens are often inserted INTENTIONALLY to make the equation more readable, even though it is often quite possible to cause the thing to work without them, and the math professor TEACHES US to use them to make the equation more readable and to ENSURE that it does what you intend. > Fortunately, I can write code without them. No, you can't! You use: If () then Begin end Else begin end While () begin end With() begin end Those Begin / End keywords are nothing more that parenthesis. Long, wordy, verbose parenthesis but parenthesis none the less. The parenthesis group the code into blocks that execute together. Use begin / end or {}, makes no difference to me but you are doing the exact same thing regardless. The language designer did NOT include them because they are unnecessary. (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end I LIKE a lot of things about VB but Begin / END is NOT one of them. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Public Dan Response() > > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using > parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. > > Fortunately, I can write code without them. > > End Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing > about using parenthesis to > group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we > have people bitching and > moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! > > ;) > > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > Who in their right minds would WANT > > begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end > > Which is the more readable? > > In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want > to have to take the time > and effort to learn a new way. > > I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and > breath to continue this > conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants > to do the same? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 08:01:32 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, max your arguments are specious. Begin VBA DOES USE THEM End John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and > oranges. > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > Max > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:12:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:12:00 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 08:39:47 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong since the last list rumble :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > ROTL > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > Live with it. > > Max > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. >> >> Begin >> VBA DOES USE THEM >> End >> >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Max Wanadoo wrote: >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with >> > coding....apples >> and >> > oranges. >> > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct >> > calculations >> but >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in >> > every >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU >> and >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. >> > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and >> pretend >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some >> curly >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white >> > space >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe >> Public >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" >> > >> > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. >> When I >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is >> > it >> how >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I >> can >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. >> > What >> is >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it >> > is >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic >> > and >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and >> some >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the >> other, >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. >> > >> > Max >> > _______________________________________________ >> > dba-VB mailing list >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:46:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> References: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Oh God, you joining in. Trouble at mill! Max On 16 March 2010 13:39, William Hindman wrote: > ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong > since the last list rumble :) > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM > To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > > ROTL > > > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > > > Live with it. > > > > Max > > > > > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > > > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. > >> > >> Begin > >> VBA DOES USE THEM > >> End > >> > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com < > http://www.colbyconsulting.com/> > >> > >> > >> Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with > >> > coding....apples > >> and > >> > oranges. > >> > > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct > >> > calculations > >> but > >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in > >> > every > >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > >> and > >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > >> > > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > >> pretend > >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > >> curly > >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white > >> > space > >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > >> Public > >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > >> > > >> > > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > >> When I > >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is > >> > it > >> how > >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > >> can > >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. > >> > What > >> is > >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it > >> > is > >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues > doesn't > >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic > >> > and > >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > >> some > >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > >> other, > >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > >> > > >> > Max > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > dba-VB mailing list > >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 09:59:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:59:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Message-ID: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:16:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:16:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle with your statements of learning curves. However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except when it sees an underscore before it. Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Mar 16 10:17:19 2010 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:17:19 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: <201003161454.o2GErls12123@smarthost.yourcomms.net> Yes, good practice and keeps code easier to find/manage e.g Form Load Events Control Events Data Accces Helper Misc It does take a little time, but when I do it I realise the benefit. Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: 16 March 2010 15:00 To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why not visit our website www.bury.gov.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our information security policy. The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it is for the intended recipient(s) alone. 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Electronic service accepted only at legalservices at bury.gov.uk and on fax number 0161 253 5119 . ************************************************************* From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:31:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 10:35:15 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:35:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't > have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle > with your statements of learning curves. > > However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the > end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a > line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no > way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. > Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long > SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will > break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I > almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly > that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except > when it sees an underscore before it. > > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of > the ;, just find it annoying. > > Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:34:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:34:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Wrong, JC. I bitched about complex math formulas sprinkled with parens and curly brackets and braces too. I used them, but they didn't make me happy. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:37:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:37:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: One of the things I love about .Net. When you're trying to track something down in code, it's much simpler to find the region first and dig around in there, plus it's nice to be able to collapse regions you aren't using so you don't have to look at so much code. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:41:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:02:01 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank goodness I'm in an IT department. I've always avoided those nasty developer/IT problems at work. Though on some of my side jobs, I've had to listen to other IT department 'demands'. I always just found them to be funny, sad, but funny. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 11:05:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:05:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:51:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:52:26 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:52:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:02:00 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually Gustav, you DO build system logic the way you speak and right. That's the entire purpose of a 'plain language coding method'. When you are given a task, you aren't told: 001101101001000110010100111000011010100100110111000110101011100001101100 10101010 If you are, you need to either put down the pipe, or move back to Earth...... Instead, you are told: When an Order's Total Value is less than $150, then we need to charge 15% shipping and handling, instead of 10%. In VB 6 (sorry, I know I'm behind on the VB curve...), that would be this, in the 'Order' Class: Property Get ShippingAndHandlingFee() As Currency If Me.TotalValue<$150 Then ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .15 Else ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .10 End If End Property Now, because of the 'plain language' ability of VB, anyone with a general understanding of Visual Basic would know immediately what is going on. More importantly, someone without even a hint of VB skill, could see that in the 'Order' Class, the Shipping and Handling 'Property' is 10% for orders 150 and up, and 15% for below 150. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:56 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 12:10:37 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm Message-ID: I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:18:49 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:18:49 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mean the toolbox? It's only available when you have an object open in design view. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:11 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:25:39 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:25:39 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:26:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:26:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> True Drew! Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom in agreement with many of the Listers. At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those are "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that a language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent and machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that meets those objectives. If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage in a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not talking about specialist language but general mainstream ones). To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with a cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:30:33 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:30:33 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <030F5799F4244C629648CABD8DA6103B@Server> >Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName An example of Pennsylvanian dutch spelling perhaps? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice. I know that you would not take offence. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:26 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:41:38 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:41:38 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:43:56 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:43:56 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:51:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:51:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok Max, that is just getting a little snitty..... Using ; to execute a line, or _ to extend a line.... two sides of the same fence. Using Function, End function, or { }, again, two sides of the same fence. Now, there may be reasons why one side is better than the other. There are definitely reasons why personal taste, or situations would favor one side or the other, but to just sit on one side and say 'Your side is full of posers and intellectual snobs'....... that just goes against the 'code'... the nerd code. Now place your pocket protector on the ground, and stand back five feet. Take deep breathes and calm down. Are you ready to play with the other children now? Oops, should that be { {;} } Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:45 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:52:40 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:52:40 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> Message-ID: <003e01cac531$7a347cd0$6a01a8c0@nant> Nope, Max, good modern C# code's methods/properties/... have just a few code lines, with a few leading spaces for indentation... One can also use #region statement to hide parts of large classes (if any)... IOW, no need at all to "scroll 2 miles" up and down or left to right - and I'd also note that modern programmers do use Class Diagrams/Class View when coding - no need to scroll source code lines at all... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:55:16 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:55:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:26 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:20 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:59:33 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:59:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I must admit that curly brackets affect me much as the Paradox script that used If..Then blocks with no End If. Harder than hell to figure out where one ended. With curly brackets littering the landscape and representing stuff that only C# family programmers may be able to interpret at a glance, I can't be bothered unless I really need to translate an example into equivalent VB. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:01:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:01:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ooops, I meant 'at the end of each line for execution'. I realize that ; is basically saying 'execute', which is what a CRLF in VB is doing too. In fact, you can also put multiple 'executable' lines in a single line. (At least you can in other languages that use ;, like Javascript). Though I do agree that syntax is to the language like women are to sex. They're quirky, confusing, and will smack you down for the slightest goof, but really, it's no fun without them..... My question is something Max asked. What is the real reason to change then? You've listed two that I understand (though I'm not really in that world right now), available of learning resources, and client requests. Anything else? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:35 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:58:58 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life blood of learning. I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 13:05:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:05:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:29:44 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 13:40:24 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:44:43 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:44:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok, agree, agree, agree, huh? I never said that it shouldn't have a syntax. I said that I don't see how one method is easier, or clearer then another. (Admittedly, I'm really comparing C to VB, not C# to VB.Net.....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:06 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 13:54:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:54:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 14:21:27 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:21:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Message-ID: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:52:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Anagnorisis? What's with the archaic words? I guess it's fitting in the defense of an archaic language... LOL Sorry, that was below the belt! BRIEF is only better sometimes....and really C isn't all that brief. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 14:54:26 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:56:52 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:56:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:57:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:57:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Aha, thanks. I seem to remember that in my brief foray, years ago, into VB.Net. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:59:28 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:59:28 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Aha.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:42 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:42 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:58 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: That might be dead on.... then again, I enjoy fiddling with my cars...the one I have now is the first I haven't fiddled with, and I've had it for months.... Guy thing, maybe? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:05:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:12:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:12:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 15:13:07 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:13:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:24:47 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:24:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> Message-ID: There's a neutral on all automatics, can coast with those too, people just don't, but I think this is getting a little off topic then we already were! LOL Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:41:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:41:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 15:48:10 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...apparently lots of improvements in VS2010 :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Waters" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:00 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM > To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > >> >> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... >> >> Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. >> >> I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol >> days >> that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing >> out >> thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the >> examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on >> earth >> would I want to go back to that?..." >> >> Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the >> part >> of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of >> code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. >> >> The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the >> non-compilation >> and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. >> >> I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the >> supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is >> a >> "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on >> that >> back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly >> reason >> why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net >> route >> with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he >> stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. >> Most >> programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and >> code >> examples are the life blood of learning. >> >> I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. >> >> >> Max >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Drew -- >> >> OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's >> good >> enough for me. >> >> Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil {^;^} >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, >> relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" >> >> The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. >> >> Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an >> End >> Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End >> Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now >> I'm >> looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, >> another >> {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that >> 3 >> or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers >> 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is >> indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End >> Function'? >> >> Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus >> it's >> the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for >> you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me >> a >> clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the >> end >> of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a >> procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? >> >> Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again >> did } >> just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down >> to >> get too? >> >> Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell >> me, >> 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know >> when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is >> missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting >> told, >> hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the >> language >> is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less >> ambiguous >> to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. >> >> Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! >> >> ;) >> >> Drew >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> OK, Max :) >> >> Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do >> enhance >> code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as >> brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - >> '{' >> and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable >> (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and >> code >> blocks will become ambiguous... >> >> Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just >> IMO) >> using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise >> and >> as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... >> >> And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) >> substitutes: >> >> - Namespace ... End Namespace >> - Module ... End Module >> - Class ... End Class >> - Sub ... End Sub >> - Function ... End Function >> - For ... Next >> - While ... End While >> - If .... Then ... End If >> - ... >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> -- >> Shamil {^;^} >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:52:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 16:06:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Message-ID: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 16:27:58 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <0C730E13A7E44B34BCBD09EC29FB4D20@jislaptopdev> ...nice find William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Shamil Salakhetdinov" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:06 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... > > Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more > often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just > found it)?: > > http://langpop.com/ > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company > like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. > > I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and > new > programmers eventually become the only programmers. > > We'll see what happens! > > Thanks! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>>> > No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very > intensively > used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation > system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... > > Look at "MONO" sources... > > No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to > use C# as you're only starting with .NET... > > With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than > anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features > (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all > that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then > they > will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but > will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... > > I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB > programmers? > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > To Everyone! > > This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where > the > two languages have the same functionality. > > So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only > as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. > > MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can > switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of > Visual > Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. > > What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding > where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will > do > is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as > possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're > not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 > years C# is going to be deprecated. > > Thanks! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do > in > C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to > stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, > so > it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you > can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a > lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the > language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and > possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for > "professional" > programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed > Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# > and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is > destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) > > LOL. > > I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't > using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, > and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you > didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be > completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. > > But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually > coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this > specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of > 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, > and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to > their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds > and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even > relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost > impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without > picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) > > So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' > grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little > more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In > the examples: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Can be written as... > class SomeClass > { > public int SomeField { Get; } > } > > 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: > > Public SomeField as Integer > > No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a > simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) > * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make > anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the > function. > > Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. > > If Something Then > Do Something > Else > Do SomethingElse > End if > > Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. > > Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be > actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense > within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is > the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is > there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that > others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally > nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't > program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB > 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would > like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world > at all, right now!) > > Drew > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:07:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:07:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <30BCC27727E54DA082A8ABDB6BD89733@Server> > f course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) Oh dear, you sound like my (ex) wife(s). Always seeing fault where non-exists... Max Ps - I am definitely with you on Automatics. It is particulary relevant over here where traffic queues are everywhere. Where is the fun moving neutral-1st-neutral-1st-neutral-1st-woah-2nd-back to 1st. Let the auto gears take the strain. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:12:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:12:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <515E9ADEF83D4C7EB8EA1B64FD9BA930@Server> >I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing Neither am I. This is correct Drew (snuggling up again)... I just thing that they are so unnecessary and clutter the screen when what I was to see if the code, not pretty curlers. I have seen programmers put Tabs chars of 4 or even 6 so the code can indent. Huh, 2 is quite sufficient thank you and 1 will do. I can see an indent without being smacking in the face with it. Horses for courses. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:14:54 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:14:54 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server><7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Indeed and very similar. On the way, I went the Foxbase and Foxpro route when I moved from Ashton Tate and then, when MS acquired Fox, I moved to Access with its much aclaimed Rushmore Jet technology. Fluffery is spot on. What it compiles down to is what matters. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:20:31 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:20:31 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <11F3C72A8FDA40BFAF6F13D1C0CB853C@Server> I am with you William. For me, the biggest help in coding is the Indenter which keeps all my ducks lined up and I can see quickly when my END is missing. Sometimes, I am really good, I put the For and Next in before the stuff in the middle. Doesn't happen too often as I am not that disciplined but the Indenter sorts it for me. I would love to be able to collapse and expand code based on For/Next/While/Wend etc. That would be neat. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on > spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I > looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and > say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the > part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the > borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation > of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it > is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I > started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There > is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in > preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one > put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was > MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples > of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life > blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, > clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see > an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking > for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a > {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a > { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and > oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. > Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify > that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really > less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this > term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how > does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells > me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I > just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just > ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again > did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've > scrolled down to get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will > tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a > }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting > told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack > sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH > easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate > relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, > then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do > enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, > accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic > (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO > just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise > and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:23:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <1A4874BDA8BD43359C6CE6227DCB6F25@Server> This is so true, I am working with Serif Webplus X4 which is really, really cool. CMS (content management systems) the lot. Forums, Facebook, all that sort of stuff all there for you at a few clicks if you want it. We are moving into a new realm. The whole shebang about ?40. Once again, spot on Drew (snuggle) Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 17:27:13 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:34:14 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:34:14 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 17:47:43 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:47:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <261B9616BB3D4282BA18D8434BB3364A@danwaters> I see a slightly higher usage rate for C# over Visual Basic. Remember though, all that data is now invalid because that was based on when the two languages had different features. With that in mind, you would expect one of them to be more preferred than the other. But with VS 2010, it's a new game. Neither language does more or less than the other. And that's the basis of all my comments today. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:07 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:25:38 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:25:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:26:07 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:26:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Gone in 2003 forward. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 20:56:18 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:56:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...slaps head, grits teeth, sighs ...thanks for telling me ...now :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlotte Foust" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but > again, it was years ago. > > I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as > much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples > I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for > what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API > calls from other languages and using them in VB. > > As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are > difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, > and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about > it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I > think. So that's simply a personal preference. > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William > Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process > it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I > stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and > then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I > know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its > any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have > to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 21:12:33 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:12:33 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , Message-ID: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 21:57:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:57:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA04505.8060009@colbyconsulting.com> Why, isn't that Begin Grin g End Grin ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:37:36 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: No, Stuart I did mean CLI (Common Language Infrastructure). You might also find the following link interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI_languages Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:51:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:51:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <509DF0D44A54489EAE5BB149BBA95966@creativesystemdesigns.com> I have been caught many times with such simple errors and that is just with VB/VBA. On the other hand with the syntax checker in the frame work of your choice, can catch most anything. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:57:42 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:57:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <4B9BC100C678430391C44118001307EA@creativesystemdesigns.com> You are making me laugh... Max. I never thought I would find programming so humorous. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 17 00:40:10 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:10 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I programmed for a number of years in the best programming language I have ever seen. It had the tightest code with the smallest number of Operands. It compiled code into very small fast executables. When you finished a code group you just put down a period... now that is simple. The language was called Clarion and I am sure few have heard of it but I wrote a number of excellent applications with the product. I have not used it for many years and doubt whether it even exists now. Times move on... all languages fade and disappear but there are always new great languages coming along. (Except C which is such a dumb language that it does not even check its variable types... if you hear of a stack-overflow rest assured someone has been programming in C again.) I think the .Net frame work is great because it has so many flavours. If you get bored with one flavour just pick another. I have a friend who is raving about Eiffel.Net?? (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms973898.aspx) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:34:19 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:34:19 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:39:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:39:47 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:53:09 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:53:09 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002901cac59e$82660870$6a01a8c0@nant> Forgot to post the link on MS Singularity OS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_%28operating_system%29 --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 02:55:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:55:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] The Last One In-Reply-To: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <16FA5A36341A432994174DEF2C5A5710@Server> Thank you so much for that link, Shamil. I can remember reading and following this saga as it unravelled in my life time courtesy of PCW which was required reading for me in those days. Oh, happy memories. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 03:55:27 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:55:27 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Me Too Arthur, I also spent time (1-2 days) a year or two ago automating and shipping backups to another server, Since I started using RedGate Backup, I just love it. But I love RedGate SQL Prompt even more. Having said that, I could not currently work without Redgate Compare and Redgate Data Compare. They have saved me days and days of time. Mark On 11 March 2010 20:42, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 04:01:18 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:01:18 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark On 13 March 2010 18:09, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. > > I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working > copy on my laptop. If > anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the > server to get a fresh copy. > I have wanted to do this for a long time. > > The obvious next question is... Access? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > William Hindman wrote: > > "if you are a little confused" > > > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > > > William > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Gustav Brock" > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > > To: > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > > > >> Hi John > >> > >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > >> may happen if you are a little confused. > >> > >> /gustav > >> > >> > >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >> > >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two > different > >> machines, and so far it is just me. > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >> > >> > >> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>> Hi John > >>> > >>> So now you are a lucky man! > >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. > >>> > >>> /gustav > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I > >>> assume. > >>> > >>> John W. Colby > >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>>> Hi John > >>>> > >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. > >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > >>>> > >>>> /gustav > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 04:21:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:21:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-studio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 08:52:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:52:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:28:04 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:28:04 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one ways to do this. But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in subject. 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a specified Top Level Folder. 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment and work on it. 5. The application will then email the results back to him. Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and then do the same without the excel s/sheet. Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the rule. Many ways Now tell me you don't use outlook!! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 09:34:21 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:21 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001201cac5de$f0584a10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I suppose you can make a Web Service with two methods: - first one to upload a spreadsheet with zips, and start your "machination" running as a Windows Service; - second one to query for results; Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 09:49:19 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:49:19 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Wed Mar 17 09:57:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice link! I liked this line: "In the same manner, we will experience dramatic progress over the coming decades, but it won't feel as dramatic while we are actually experiencing it." The old frog in boiling water scenario. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 09:59:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:59:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> Message-ID: <4BA0EE46.3030107@colbyconsulting.com> Max, Actually I don't use outlook, though I know how to automate it in VBA (Access). But I am doing this in C# or .Net. Thanks for the suggestion. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. > > My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one > ways to do this. > > But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: > > 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in > subject. > 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a > specified Top Level Folder. > 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. > 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment > and work on it. > 5. The application will then email the results back to him. > > Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and > then do the same without the excel s/sheet. > > Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the > rule. > > Many ways > > Now tell me you don't use outlook!! > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM > To: VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific > client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." > kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex > process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to > do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how > would i go about doing something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new > "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. > I don't know how to build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but > hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a > machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL > Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. > Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year > or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the > loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, > log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do > a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the > loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my > time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:00:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:00:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:13:32 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:13:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:30:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F5A5.9030800@colbyconsulting.com> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:54 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL Charlotte -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:42:08 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA0F850.6050409@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. They are easy to lose, not as In Your Face as a ton of BEGIN / ENDs. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL > > Charlotte > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:43:36 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:36 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:49:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F9FC.1020809@colbyconsulting.com> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> > I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the > list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty > much just looking for something like: > > Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population > 56 127,435 437,329 > > Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list > across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to > potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: > > 1) Create a working directory using the order number > 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory > 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) > 4) Import the data into that order database > 5) Run the queries and get the counts > 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. > > This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): > > 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. > 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers > > No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. > > I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. > > They would be THRILLED with this. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> Too bad. >> Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> >> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >>> >>> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dw-murphy at cox.net Wed Mar 17 11:48:04 2010 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:48:04 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: One way to do this is with web services. I have a client who wants to keep order data on a local access database, but also has a web order entry system that I built in ASP.NET. The ASP.NET site uses a SQL server database. I keep them in synch with web services. Works well. A more .NET type approach would be to use the entity framework and Windows Communcation Foundation. It looked really attractive for the project I mentioned but we originally started with a version of SQL Server that wasn't supported. Don't remember much about it except that it would have been easier to build. I don't understand the theory behind a lot of the .NET stuff but it does seem to work as advertised. Doug -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:53 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 11:51:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#DownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:20:48 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to transfer data. Web services are really easy. You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is almost as easy as a webpage. I can help you out with those if you need. You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. David McAfee On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... ?What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 12:20:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:20:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cac5f6$31b1c100$6a01a8c0@nant> Thank you, Gustav, Yes, John, making simple ASP.NET Web Services is an easy exercise, and as Gustav noted we have a sample of such a web service on nowthwind.codeplex.com... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:52 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#D ownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:54:38 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:54:38 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171054t3cf32a37t673d465051d605d2@mail.gmail.com> This is how I pull data from my SQLCE database and send it to my webservice: (You would be reading from a CSV file instead) private void moveInvHdrFromSdfToSQL() { localhost.Service1 MyObj = new localhost.Service1(); SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection CEconn; CEconn = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection(("Data Source =" + (PathPC + FileName))); CEconn.Open(); string strSQL = "SELECT ICNo,StoreNo,InvNo,InvDate,CustPoNo,ResaleFlag,CrMemoFlag,SelForPrtFlag FROM tblInvHdr"; SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter CEda = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter(strSQL, CEconn); DataSet ds = new DataSet(); CEda.Fill(ds, "InvHdr"); string RtnMsg = MyObj.InsertInvHdr(ds); if ((RtnMsg != "InvHdr data inserted")) { throw new Exception(RtnMsg); } CEda.Dispose(); CEconn.Close(); CEconn.Dispose(); } and this is the webservice being called: [WebMethod()] public string InsertInvHdr(string strInput, DataSet dsIn) { int errNum; string errMsg; SqlConnection myConnection; SqlCommand myCommand; DataRow row; try { myConnection = new SqlConnection("server=MyServerName;uid=MyLogin;pwd=MyPW;database=MyDataBaseName"); myConnection.Open(); myCommand = new SqlCommand(); myCommand.Connection = myConnection; foreach (row in dsIn.Tables[0].Rows) { myCommand.CommandText = ("EXEC stpInsertIntoInvHdr \'" + (row["ICNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["StoreNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvDate"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["CustPoNo"].ToString().Replace(''', "||") + ("\', " + (row["ResaleFlag"].ToString() + (", " + (row["CrMemoFlag"].ToString() + (", " + row["SelForPrtFlag"].ToString()))))))))))))))); myCommand.ExecuteNonQuery(); } return "InvHdr data inserted"; myConnection.Close(); } catch (Exception ex) { errNum = Err.Number; errMsg = ex.Message; return ("SQL/WS Error: WS.InsertInvHdr - " + (errNum + (":" + errMsg))); } } And this is the Stored procedure: (I've simplified it a bit, just to save time) CREATE PROCEDURE stpInsertIntoInvHdr( @ICnum AS VARCHAR(10), @StoreNo AS VARCHAR(16), @InvNo AS VARCHAR (8), @InvDate AS VARCHAR(22), @CustPoNo AS VARCHAR (20), @ResaleFlag AS INT, @CrMemoFlag AS INT, @SelForPrtFlag AS INT) AS INSERT INTO InvHdr (ICNo, StoreNo, InvNo, InvDate, CustPoNo, ResaleFlag, CrMemoFlag, SelForPrtFlag) VALUES (@ICnum, @StoreNo, @InvNo, @InvDate, @CustPoNo, @ResaleFlag, at CrMemoFlag, at SelForPrtFlag) This is using a SQL 2000 database, if you are using SQL Server 2008, you don't have to insert line by line and can actually do a bulk insert, which is even easier. David On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David McAfee wrote: > John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to > transfer data. > > Web services are really easy. > > You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is > almost as easy as a webpage. > > I can help you out with those if you need. > > You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. > > David McAfee > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with >> me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a >> moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do >> is to make it a process that they can do themselves. >> >> My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing >> something like this. >> >> 1) The client is in NY. >> 2) The data is in my server in NC >> 3) The server is Windows 2003 >> 4) SQL Server 2008 >> 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# >> 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which >> essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. >> >> So... ?What are my options? >> >> 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to >> build a web app. >> 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my >> office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. >> 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. >> >> At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a >> directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to >> get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. >> >> I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or >> 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows >> them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time >> they do a count. >> >> Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a >> little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 17 18:08:36 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:08:36 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN References: Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> I'm using Tortoise. It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I didn't look into it. Cheers Michael M Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 06:33:00 From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 17 18:40:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:40:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> References: , <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 20:18:58 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:18:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA17F82.8040203@colbyconsulting.com> I am using VisualVSN integrated into VS2008. It is dead easy. It is also pretty cheap at $50 / seat. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > I'm using Tortoise. > It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. > > Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 > virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) > Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it > had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I > didn't look into it. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > Hi Mark > > I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu > dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh > > Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: > > http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ > > However, I haven't experimented with any of these. > > /gustav > > >>>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> > Just check the mdb in John. > > It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will > version control the mdb file. > > It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage > sizes nowadays anyway :o) > > it is very comforting to check files in and out. > > Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives > you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:15:30 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:15:30 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would second that thought of slowly moving to web based entry forms. It is sort of half way in between being sent all the data and then you having to manage it and sending the results back. By building a web form the data can be controlled or at least partially managed by the client and then you just have to manage the BE. I also use a combination of Hamachi VPN (a LogMeIn component) and Filezilla (a very secure FTP client and Server) to move large blocks of data back and forth. The free LogMeIn module does not have data transfer... Bigger clients either have and can use MS Remote Desktop Connection or Linux/Unix based clients have Citrix. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:49 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:21:11 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:21:11 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:29:55 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:29:55 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <022ABAA50D8C4690817E6CD2DAF92FD3@creativesystemdesigns.com> Stuart: ...Or FileZilla for example. Server version will set listener to any port ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:32:07 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:56:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:56:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A6F1FBE1E984015B4936A3A360DCA80@Server> Doug, I use FileZilla Server (free) and that maintains a list of banned IP addresses as well as a log showing who was trying to get in. Blocked Ips can be timed specific. Not sure about FileZilla Client, but may have the same. I log them and then check back on what names they were using to try to guess the password - quite funny some of them. There are others. New: Automatically block IP addresses after a specific number of failed login attempts. http://www.pablosoftwaresolutions.com/html/quick__n_easy_ftp_server.html http://software.informer.com/getfree-bullet-ftp-block-ip-address/ Do a google for "ftp block ip addresses" Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:32 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 14:22:10 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:22:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Thu Mar 18 14:33:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:33:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:36:48 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:36:48 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:55:17 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:55:17 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 19:31:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:31:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA2C5CB.7060703@colbyconsulting.com> You would think that the UK would be one place you could get him prosecuted. Of course that assumes that he really is in the UK. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Going OT but I gotta share :-) > I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. > We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. > Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account > and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! > Who would do that??? > I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's > hard to see his payment :-) > He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... > The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the > incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? > I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to > collect but decided it was too much effort. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute > force your PW. It keeps him > from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" > scams. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi Jim: >> >> I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data > from >> clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the > server >> screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying > to >> brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third > wrong >> guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break > in, but >> it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming >> ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which > can be >> all over the place. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence > wrote: >>> Hi Gustav: >>> >>> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so >>> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 22:47:35 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:47:35 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. It works very and I have never had any problems since. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 23:16:14 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:16:14 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003182116o5976ec7evfdc37d3ca19477b6@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jim. I'll definitely take your advice about port 21. Our passwords are pretty strong - as I said, there haven't been any successful attacks. I haven't tried a VPN. I was exaggerating slightly about China; lots of the hackers are in North America, so banning IP ranges would only be a partial solution. I did once try working through an ISP's abuse department, but ended up spending quite a bit of time only to discover that, basically, they didn't care and weren't going to do anything. Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. > > 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. > 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. > 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. > 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" > 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. > 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com > 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. > > It works very and I have never had any problems since. > HTH > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, > but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can > be > all over the place. > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 23:58:52 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: Micheal: This happens all the time with sites like Craig's list. There has happened so many time people scammed that banks will not even back cheques any more. Only deal with cash... Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 00:52:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:52:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Fri Mar 19 00:57:26 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:26 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/19/10 06:33:00 From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 01:41:37 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:37 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local><001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001c01cac72f$3a71b040$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, but in this his last issue he promises to publish something new, even better - and the subject tutorial is one of the best his works I suppose... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:57 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 09:10:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:10:13 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 11:42:38 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:38 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 11:52:52 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:52:52 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Gustav -- That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st udio-2008-together/ I must note I haven't used it yet. Thank you. --Shamii -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 19 12:26:24 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26494BC39BA443D9B01695E02869F25C@creativesystemdesigns.com> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:10 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 12:41:12 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:41:12 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FTP server (was: Goin' for the (browser based) gold) Message-ID: Hi Jim OK, I'll make a note on this. Sounds very nice. Just about the only feature I recall to have used is virtual folders which FTP of IIS handles well. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 19-03-2010 18:26 >>> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 13:11:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:11:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Outlook Macros In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223BF14B7E204BB7B60941E00BBF592D@Server> I have just written some code to move all accessList emails from all the initial folder into other folders based on the subject matter, creating a new folder as necessary. They are now grouped by subject instead of person (which I had before and that was impossible to follow threads). I can run that code from Access or from within Outlook by selecting Tools/Macro/Macros or Alt-F8 and then clicking Run. The Outlook Macro options do not appear to have any way to RECORD a Macro so that I can run it directly with a hot-key. IS this correct, because it sound strange when other office apps have this facility. I don't want to go via the macro menu if I can avoid it. Thanks Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 08:37:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart Message-ID: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time configuration". Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it configured VS for first time use. I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there and seems to be functioning. A little strange! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:19:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:19:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Call for development assistance Message-ID: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective advocates. First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ For my state the link is: http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a system for coordinating the graduates. What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web site. Sigh. So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people with a disability. Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: http://consumer-action.org/ This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. Thanks, -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:58:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for development assistance In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA8D708.2000901@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Susan! If it works, eventually this thing will be huge I think. In the meantime I am going to need SQL Server stuff, C# stuff and ASP.Net stuff. Lots for everyone to do I am sure. Not to mention brainstorming, high level planning, documentation and so much more. I would like to be able to do startup in time for my last session which will be in the November time frame. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Susan Harkins wrote: >> Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and >> let's make this thing happen. > > ======JC, count me in -- I have no experience in building web sites, but I'm > sure there's something I could do to help, and I'm not opposing to learning > new skills. > > Susan H. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 14:20:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:20:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for Development In-Reply-To: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> References: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> Message-ID: <4BA9147B.2040903@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Randy! I will do some organization stuff to allow us all to work together and then call a meeting. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Randy Sigmond wrote: > John, > > > > Count me in! > > > > I have experience in C#, ASP.NET & SQL Development. > > > > Randy Sigmond > > > > Ps - I can be found on LinkedIn.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From garykjos at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:37:50 2010 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart In-Reply-To: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Patch Tuesday maybe? GK On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time > configuration". ?Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it > configured VS for first time use. > > I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. > > Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. ?It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there > and seems to be functioning. > > A little strange! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:16:49 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> Message-ID: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:46:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up Message-ID: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes docked on that side and so forth. Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio Brain Farts). Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:59:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:59:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? From dwaters at usinternet.com Wed Mar 24 08:38:09 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:38:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the same: 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click Next 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 08:42:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Sometimes Microsoft really is good Message-ID: <4BAA16D5.8090605@colbyconsulting.com> I had an issue with Visual Studio, it decided that I was using it for the first time. BOO! I had to reconfigure how the panes dock. BOO! When I finished and tried to run, the application crashed. BOO! It reported the error. YEAAA! It told me I needed to download a hotfix. YEAAA! It took me directly to the page to get the hotfix! YEAAA! Which I did. Now, I have no idea whether this is going to actually fix it or not but it is in areas like this that I am impressed with Microsoft. Yea, bugs are a PITA, but we all have them. It is how we handle them that makes the difference and MS really handles that side of things well IMHO. To have a list of bugs, the specific patch that fixes it, the reporting that finds it, and the system to get it and install it is pretty cool. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 09:25:21 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:25:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA20D1.7050907@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Dan, that was it. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the > same: > > 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... > 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next > 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click > Next > 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish > > Good Luck, > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up > > OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the > middle it would dock on > the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing > new there) but I am at > least working. > > Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears > that maybe it didn't > set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the > project. Now F6 is ignored > and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it > immediately offers to build > a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells > VS which environment to > use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, > if I pinned them open >> they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at > the top, the next would >> be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me > to select the panes >> docked on that side and so forth. >> >> Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by > side, taking up just TONS >> of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that > got reset (see Visual Studio >> Brain Farts). >> >> Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mikedorism at verizon.net Wed Mar 24 16:12:19 2010 From: mikedorism at verizon.net (Doris Manning) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:12:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, If you could use another body, I'd be happy to throw my hat into the ring. I am familiar with SQL Server and C#. Looking to improve my web UI skills. Doris Manning Senior Developer/Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:17 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server; VBA Subject: Re: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 20:45:06 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:45:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 24 20:58:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:58:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos References: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582E33@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, I feel your pain :-) If you have a BindingSource for the combo you can apply a filter there. Heres my code for filtering a DataGridView. BS.Filter = "Archived = False And " + String.Format ( "ReceivedDate >= '{0:yyyy-MM-dd}'", DateTime.Today.AddMonths (-3 )); There is a remove filter method as well. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 25 March 2010 12:45 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/25/10 06:33:00 From Gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 25 05:38:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: Hi John You are doing it right and you will end up with three icons per source. If that bothers you, you will notice that the code for creating these are held in the designer code of the form. They can be moved to the code module if you like, and then the icons will not be present. Here is an example where a predefined dataset is used: public partial class FormMain : Form { public DataSetDL DlDataSet = new DataSetDL(); public FormMain() { InitializeComponent(); InitializeDataSet(); InitializeFolders(); } private void FillEmployerComboBox() { DataSetDL.DataTableEmployerDataTable dataTableEmployer = DlDataSet.DataTableEmployer; EmployerComboBox.SelectedItem = "Id"; EmployerComboBox.DisplayMember = "Organisation"; EmployerComboBox.DataSource = dataTableEmployer; } } InitializeDataSet fills the datasets from an XML file. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 25-03-2010 02:45 >>> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 07:29:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:29:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 08:29:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] One or more objects access this field Message-ID: <4BACB6AF.7090508@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to do a drop column from a sql statement and it failed with that error message. AFAICT I had no cursors etc open that displayed that field. I eventually went into design view of the table and manually deleted the column and that worked. Any ideas why something like this occurs? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 26 14:18:01 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:18:01 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I do use it here: http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 06:17:52 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:17:52 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:18:53 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:32:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:32:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE170C.10205@colbyconsulting.com> Mark, It is too expensive for me. I am currently using VisualSVN and it is "enough" for my simple needs, and at $50 / seat is cheap enough to actually afford and buy, though I haven't done so yet - still on the 30 day review. ATM I have just me and I am in the process of bringing in two or three students to learn and then assist me in my C# / SQL Server project, which is 1/2 of my business and income right now. I would switch to Mercurial if: I can make the switch. I can get transparent integration to VS2008. It is cheap / free. It provides recognizable benefits over VisualSVN. The bottom line is that what I have works, and it was dead simple to get working and to use. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Mark Breen wrote: > Hello All, > > I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. > It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. > > IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for > Mecurial - or did I not get it right? > > I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering > downloading and installing it here. > > What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could > set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not > really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. > > Thanks > > Mark > > > > > On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi John -- >> >> I do use it here: >> >> http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets >> >> But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >> >> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >>> Hi Gustav -- >>> >>> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >>> >>> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >>> >>> >> http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >>> udio-2008-together/ >>> >>> I must note I haven't used it yet. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> --Shamii >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock >>> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM >>> To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi Shamil and Michael >>> >>> But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic >> light" >>> sub-icons. >>> >>> Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all >> evil >>> to maintain. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> >>> Hi Shamil, >>> >>> Beat me to it..lol >>> Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial >>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html >>> >>> >>> Talk about timing :-) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >>> Salakhetdinov >>> Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM >>> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >>> Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged >> (:)) >>> if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be >> polite): >>> http://hginit.com/ >>> >>> I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago >>> (before I did find this article/tutorial). >>> >>> Enjoy! ;) >>> >>> -- >>> Shamil >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 10:04:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler Message-ID: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 14:22:26 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:22:26 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... All these tools are free. As I'm working with a Codeplex project (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis When working with student support team you'd probably not need any Mercurial servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with some training it should go smoothly): - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as many folders as the size of students' support team you have; - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; - ... - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's call it STDSET1; - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); - ... - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and overwrite cloned source folder for this student; - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's cloned repository; - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) to the main repository; - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - ... - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their changes to get MAINSET_vX; - ... - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as a default one; - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm "all ears".... Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve step. There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG to create Mercurial repository. If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with SVN. Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject tool. There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all ears"... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 14:52:11 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:52:11 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello John and Shamil, I too consider Kiln expensive and I feel I could manage the command line commands. if nothing else, using command line will ensure that I learn the tool. I was mentioning Kiln from the point of view that if Joel has launched an interface for it, he must consider it "One to Watch" for the future. I am like you, and work mostly alone, so I could continue to use SVN, but I think that Merurial might be worth learning so I am watching this space. thanks Mark On 27 March 2010 19:22, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. > > I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - > TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... > > All these tools are free. > > As I'm working with a Codeplex project > (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do > not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. > > As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers > but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi > r-on-iis > > When working with student support team you'd probably not need any > Mercurial > servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with > some training it should go smoothly): > > - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as > many > folders as the size of students' support team you have; > - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; > - ... > - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's > call it STDSET1; > - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send > changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); > - ... > - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and > overwrite cloned source folder for this student; > - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's > cloned repository; > - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); > - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default > => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) > to > the main repository; > - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from > student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - ... > - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their > changes to get MAINSET_vX; > - ... > - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; > - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as > a default one; > - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... > > See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ > > The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. > If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm > "all > ears".... > > Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched > above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source > control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve > step. > > There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm > formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... > > Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) > to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support > files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG > to > create Mercurial repository. > > If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with > SVN. > > Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject > tool. > There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss > > If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise > tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all > ears"... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Shamil, > > I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your > source control? If so do > you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / > inexpensively with Visual > studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into > Murcurial? Are you > available as a source for coaching us through the change? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi John -- > > > > I do use it here: > > > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > > > John W. Colby > > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi Gustav -- > >> > >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > >> > >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > >> > >> > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > >> udio-2008-together/ > >> > >> I must note I haven't used it yet. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> --Shamii > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 15:01:07 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:01:07 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant><4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000701cacde8$3e94db10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Mark -- As I noted in my reply to JC in this thread Mercurial tools (including Visual Studio plug-in and web server) are free. If you can set Central Mercurial Server (to play with) on your publicly available IIS web server and post reproducible setup steps that would be very useful for many developers AFAICS: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484151/how-to-setup-mercurial-central-re pository-on-shared-hosting http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Breen Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 16:39:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:39:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: <4BAE7B0F.1060707@colbyconsulting.com> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 16:54:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:54:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John It is 1 that is True. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 17:06:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:06:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAE814B.4050902@colbyconsulting.com> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 17:19:18 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:19:18 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 07:36:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Sun Mar 28 08:24:39 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:24:39 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Hi Gustav, What is MyBooleanOrBitField? Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 28 10:18:44 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:18:44 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> References: , <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Message-ID: <4BAF7354.22705.17DE841A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> An example name fo the Boolean( Access BE) or Bit (SQL Server BE) field he is working with. -- Stuart On 28 Mar 2010 at 8:24, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Gustav, > > What is MyBooleanOrBitField? > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? > > Hi John > > That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and > false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is > - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. > I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to > use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to > make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. > > /gustav > > >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> > Any idea why it displays as -1? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > It is 1 that is True. > > > > /gustav > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I > have a bit field and > > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out > records. If I try == True it > > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set > (true). > > > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it > display -1 but I can't > > test for that? > > > > TIA > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 28 14:22:07 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:22:07 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. To look up a record here is one method I use. ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: private void ChangeCustomerSelection() { if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) { _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); } else { this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() { this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); } Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: private void SaveRow() { if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) { // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) { bool enableSave = this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; if (enableSave) { this.Validate(false); if (FormValidated()) { this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; // Enable selection of customer. this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; } } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } } } private bool FormValidated() { // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) { return false; } if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) { return false; } return true; } This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 17:40:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:40:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAFDAF3.7070707@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Gustav, This is the kind of stuff I need. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 21:31:02 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:31:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB010E6.5090106@colbyconsulting.com> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 29 02:21:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:21:13 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John That is a method created by VS when you add a custom select query to a DataTable in the designer (right-click at the bottom of the box holding the table). As one of the last steps, the wizard offers to create two methods, GetData() and Fill(), which you can rename, and this I do to reflect what the query - and thus the method - does. It is all stored in the xsd file of the dataset as this snip of the XML shows: SELECT CustomerId, EmailAddress, EmailAddressType, Id, Inactive, Name FROM CustomerEmail WHERE (CustomerId = @CustomerId) ORDER BY Name /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 29-03-2010 04:31 >>> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 30 08:59:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Message-ID: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:16:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:16:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: So you're talking about using the combo as a navigational tool? We create user controls for this purpose and load them into the header area of the form. Our nav controls have next/prev buttons and a combo that allows the user to select a particular record. The nav control has a handler in the form and the form sinks the results of a change in value and calls a routine to reload the data for the form using a where clause built on the nav control value. Or possibly uses the data for the filter property of a dataview and sets the binding context of the form to that. There are other possibilities that I leave you to discover. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:36 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:22:08 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler In-Reply-To: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, We use an IsValid method on each of our forms/subforms and call that before allowing the user to leave a form. The routine tests against any rules we've established to determine whether this is a valid record, and if it is, it calls an update routine and returns a true value to the calling object. If you use the bindingcontext of the datasource and EndCurrentEdit, you can reliably call HasChanges and if so update the datasource. With a grid, the IsValid method is called from the validating event of the grid, so it is triggered when the grid loses focus or adds or changes a row. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:04 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 30 14:00:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:00:54 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control In-Reply-To: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001c01cad03b$548990f0$6a01a8c0@nant> VisualHG - http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ Mercurial isn't "so much better" - it's different, and more suitable for distributed source control... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:00 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 31 16:11:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:11:47 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance Message-ID: <000f01cad116$c7608e40$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, If you haven't yet got collected a set of "bird view" links on MS Application Platform here it's: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance http://blogs.msdn.com/jmeier/archive/2010/02/08/mapping-out-the-microsoft-ap plication-platform-at-a-glance.aspx Thank you. -- Shamil From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 4 07:24:29 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:24:29 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform Message-ID: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 09:07:59 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:07:59 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003040707x505c97f3ja15514f5440d37c1@mail.gmail.com> This site: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/?lang=cs#master has a bunch of excellent tutorials, with several on master/detail forms. Doug On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:24 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out > how to do that in C#, > probably using a DataGridView as the subform. > > I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do > the parent/child link > thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the > child table. Basically I > want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the > subform automatically > display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / > child table. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 4 10:45:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:45:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: There are a variety of ways to do it, John. The simplest I've found is to create a usercontrol with whatever controls I need on it, grid, listview, textboxes, whatever. The usercontrol usually has a public method called FillData with arguments for the values needed to sync the usercontrol to the parent form. When we use FillData, the subform fills its own datasource using the arguments passed in. This acts pretty much like the master/child links in Access. An alternative is to fill the dataset at the parent form and simply pass a datarow to the usercontrol. Or possibly the entire dataset if you're using a grid. You would only do that when the subform is causing changes to the parent form because they share fields. Not an ideal situation but one that happens sometimes. We most commonly run into the need when we have a grid that includes a button to popup a child form. Since changes to the child form also changes the data displayed in the grid (which shows a subset of information), we pass the datarow to the child form so that the changes are automatically made as if a ByRef were being used. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:24 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 13:21:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:21:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view Message-ID: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:19:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: UPDATE vSplitZip SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:39:05 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:39:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From drawbridgej at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 5 15:30:34 2010 From: drawbridgej at sympatico.ca (Jack and Pat) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, Glad you solved it. I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = Right([zip9],4); jack -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:39 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.; Sqlserver-Dba Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2723 - Release Date: 03/05/10 02:34:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 16:00:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:00:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B917EF6.6050607@colbyconsulting.com> Jack, That would, in this specific case, because in this case everything is contained in a single table. I am trying to solve a larger problem however which is that I often have to do updates to views where I am joining table A to Table B On PKID and then updating tableA.FieldA = TableB.FieldA. I am not a SQL guru and I do not play one on TV, but the only way I know how to do that is to save the query as a view, then update the view. By learning how to use Common Table Expressions (CTEs), I can create the view "in memory" and update it right then and there. What I used to do was create the query in code, then save the query (as a view) in code, then update the saved view in code. The issue I ran into is that TSQL didn't like to save a query using the DBName.Dbo.Viewname syntax. IOW the stored procedure doing all of this had to be stored in and executed from the database that the view would be saved in. I am trying to create a library of stored procedures that can be run against any database and stored in a "library" database. This CTE thingie provides me with that "indirection". John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jack and Pat wrote: > John, > Glad you solved it. > > I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > > UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = > Right([zip9],4); > > jack From raibeart at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 11:29:31 2010 From: raibeart at gmail.com (Robert Stewart) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:29:31 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] dba-VB Digest, Vol 77, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b93e26a.5644f10a.1ac0.0e83@mx.google.com> That is the correct and simple way of doing it Jack. At 12:00 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 >From: "Jack and Pat" >Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view >To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming > issues.'" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >John, >Glad you solved it. > >I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > >UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = >Right([zip9],4); > >jack From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 16:18:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx Message-ID: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 8 18:06:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John: That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short sighted.) Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 22:08:34 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:08:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B95C9C2.3060505@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, not at all. They need something to spend their time on. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the > industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the > universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short > sighted.) > > Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx > > An interesting read > > http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 14:47:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:47:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Message-ID: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in version control. But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like file://F:/Repositories It gives an error Repository is not available unable to open an ra_local session to URL Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to the server. I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked in, the rest refuse. Has anyone run into / solved this problem? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 15:04:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:04:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 16:35:38 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:35:38 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it just seems to work :-) Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches with shared projects every time. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 18:57:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:57:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 19:11:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:11:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D57@ddi-01.DDI.local> Not yet, I may be starting a new SQL based project soon so I'll give it a go then. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/11/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 07:34:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Message-ID: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. First of all, it ain't fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or clean install over it. Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding smoothly. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 07:42:30 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:42:30 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 10:26:17 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:26:17 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:15:37 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 11:36:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that > was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access > etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and > 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not > work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >> back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:58:41 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:58:41 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6B1635AA335E48D6A28B41F5D6443CDA@Server> If you, for example, download DNN from here :http://www.microsoft.com/web/gallery/Default.aspx You get tons of tools with it incl SQL Server 2008 etc but no management stuff. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:36 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and > that was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, > access etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both > 2008 and 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will > not work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server >> awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server >> Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:10:50 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003111110i6a9a3d2fi896b06b0ad72682e@mail.gmail.com> What issues are you seeing? I deal with .Net 2005/SQLCE3.0 and .Net2008/SQLCE3.5 and the two aren't compatible with each other. .Net2008 wont read a SQLCE3.0 database and vice versa. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:36 AM, jwcolby wrote: > 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. ?And I too ran around in circles looking for an express > edition of 2008. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: >> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? >> >> I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that >> was incompatible... >> >> No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the >> management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access >> etc, that sort of thing. >> >> Max >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and >> 2005. >> >> Charlotte Foust >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not >> work in 2008. >> >> Not absolutely sure about that, but... >> >> max >> >> >> On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> Well THAT was a PITA. ?I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >>> back. ?Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >>> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >>> ?So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev >> laptop. >>> ?First of all, it ain't >>> fast. ?Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. ?In >>> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >>> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >>> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >>> clean install over it. >>> >>> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >>> smoothly. >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:32:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen Message-ID: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:35:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:35:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Never mind John, As least your c# is coming on a-pace. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:42:24 2010 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:42:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is awesome. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:51:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and > writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, > mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup > was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of > my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back > out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do > that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using > the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that > working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files > in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to > begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a > largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right > service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one > last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a > query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have > restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:53:41 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B995855.60105@colbyconsulting.com> With 2008 developer edition, backup compression is built-in so I don't really need anything any more. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 14:56:00 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:48:25 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:48:25 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com><5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: Thanks Charlotte, Why didn't MS say that on their forum!! They have "experts" posting there telling people to use the 2005 tools. If you want to know anything, come to AccessD. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:56 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:51:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:51:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com><2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I am going to learn PowerBasic next. Once I have finished the Blat Form program (and that is nearly there) I want to put it into an .exe and from what I read on the PB site, it should be pretty straight forward with their Forms module. I did Quick Basic (Qbasic) some years back and that was very powerful without a too steep learning curve. C# is OTT for my needs. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) > and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my > databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free > backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get > all of my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them > back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# > code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able > to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the > Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have > that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of > reading the files in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor > to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I > discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the > right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the > services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset > of file names in a query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will > have restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 16:54:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:54:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: <4B9AC643.2060203@colbyconsulting.com> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 22:51:00 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:51:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# inheritance - first foray Message-ID: <4B9B19B4.204@colbyconsulting.com> Tonight I made my first foray into doing my own base class and inheriting that, as opposed to inheriting a base class from the framework, which I have done many times. I had designed a class which implemented my stored procedure widget. Basically the what and why was that I wanted to absolutely standardize the names and data types of a set of parameters that I pass to my stored procedures in SQL Server. I developed a fair number of SPs over a couple of years. I didn't check back (for naming conventions) to previous SPs as I developed the next so I ended up with the "same" variable named many different things. @FieldName and @FldName, @TableName and @tblName etc. Once I started trying to drive them from C# is became a PITA because the name passed in from C# must exactly match the name in the SP definition line. Thus I started defining a standard out in my C# code and rebuilding the SPs as I encountered errors trying to run the SPs. Code like: public void paramDBName(string lstrDBName) { sCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter( "@DBName", SqlDbType.VarChar, 50)); sCmd.Parameters["@DBName"].Value = lstrDBName; } and public void paramErrorDesc() { base.pCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter("@ErrorDesc", System.Data.SqlDbType.VarChar, 4000)); base.pCmd.Parameters["@ErrorDesc"].Direction = System.Data.ParameterDirection.Output; } This effectively "hard codes" the parameter name, but allows easy passing of the value going into that parameter, or defining the direction if it is a value coming back. I have about 20 of these parameters. So fine I did that. Then I defined the command object, initialization code, variables to allow me to capture the time required to execute the SP, code to log the fact that the sp executed etc. This worked great for my "generic" SPs. Except that I eventually wanted to define some specific parameters for stored procedures used for purposed processes, such as backup / restore. But I still wanted the code surrounding the command object to be standard. So tonight I started carving that "class header" kind of stuff out into a base class, and inheriting that in the child classes. It is interesting what you have to go through to make it happen. I seem to have the main class that I carved apart working, now I have to go into the other classes and carve out the header stuff and have them inherit the base class. It is also interesting working with projects within a solution. The main clsStoredProcedure is out in its own project under the solution and has to be added under references etc. Learning C# has been a journey, and I haven't gotten all that far along the road. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 02:59:26 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:59:26 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 05:48:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:48:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9B7B79.4040205@colbyconsulting.com> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 08:40:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:40:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John So now you are a lucky man! Red indicates conflicts or errors. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 09:59:52 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9BB678.1040503@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 10:07:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:07:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:39 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:16:39 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > > >Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 11:25:03 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:25:03 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi David Yes, it will bring up the two files showing the parts where they differ and let you pick and choose which parts to keep. /gustav >>> davidmcafee at gmail.com 13-03-2010 17:16 >>> If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Sat Mar 13 11:53:48 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:53:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> "if you are a little confused" ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gustav Brock" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM To: Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > Hi John > > Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > may happen if you are a little confused. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > > I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different > machines, and so far it is just me. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >> assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 12:09:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working copy on my laptop. If anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the server to get a fresh copy. I have wanted to do this for a long time. The obvious next question is... Access? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com William Hindman wrote: > "if you are a little confused" > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gustav Brock" > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > >> Hi John >> >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation >> may happen if you are a little confused. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? >> >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different >> machines, and so far it is just me. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> So now you are a lucky man! >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >>> assume. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> >>> >>> Gustav Brock wrote: >>>> Hi John >>>> >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>>> >>>> /gustav >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 08:35:03 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:35:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 09:00:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:00:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 10:18:21 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. Careful, there, John. GRrrrr Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 10:49:39 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:49:39 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9E5713.7090808@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: >> filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > Careful, there, John. GRrrrr > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. > > "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by > the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Dan Waters wrote: >> http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx >> >> This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality >> differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. >> For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the >> preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's >> easier to read. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 15 15:06:43 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:06:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Mon Mar 15 15:52:10 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:52:10 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 16:00:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:00:35 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <288F1A0CAAB44D76BC2A5F8F8B418314@Server> Perhaps, if (and only if) they had dropped the stupid curly brances which is not "normal" in a language no matter what the origin. If the structure of functions and commands did not have meaningless clutter. Unnecessary and unwanted and serve no purpose other than obfuscation. 2p Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Mon Mar 15 16:51:08 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 15 17:13:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:13:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: , <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:25:47 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Mon Mar 15 17:40:24 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:40:24 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:49:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list Message-ID: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a list of zips. I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, this would narrow things down pretty well. So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. Does that make sense. OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't know where to find that, though I will Google more. Anyway... I ran out and found C# code to perform that calculation. It would be NICE to do this in TSQL in a query right inside of SQL Server. I found code for both. Ain't the internet GRAND? The C# code: // Calculate Distance in Milesdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625); // Calculate Distance in Kilometersdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers); //GeoCodeCalc C# Class: public static class GeoCodeCalc{ public const double EarthRadiusInMiles = 3956.0; public const double EarthRadiusInKilometers = 6367.0; public static double ToRadian(double val) { return val * (Math.PI / 180); } public static double DiffRadian(double val1, double val2) { return ToRadian(val2) - ToRadian(val1); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. Defaults to using Miles. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2) { return CalcDistance(lat1, lng1, lat2, lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Miles); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement m) { double radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInMiles; if (m == GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers) { radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInKilometers; } return radius * 2 * Math.Asin( Math.Min(1, Math.Sqrt( ( Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lat1, lat2)) / 2.0), 2.0) + Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat1)) * Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat2)) * Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lng1, lng2)) / 2.0), 2.0) ) ) ) ); } } public enum GeoCodeCalcMeasurement : int { Miles = 0, Kilometers = 1 } The TSQL code: Create Function [dbo].[fnGetDistance] ( @Lat1 Float(18), @Long1 Float(18), @Lat2 Float(18), @Long2 Float(18), @ReturnType VarChar(10) ) Returns Float(18) AS Begin Declare @R Float(8); Declare @dLat Float(18); Declare @dLon Float(18); Declare @a Float(18); Declare @c Float(18); Declare @d Float(18); Set @R = Case @ReturnType When 'Miles' Then 3956.55 When 'Kilometers' Then 6367.45 When 'Feet' Then 20890584 When 'Meters' Then 6367450 Else 20890584 -- Default feet (Garmin rel elev) End Set @dLat = Radians(@lat2 - @lat1); Set @dLon = Radians(@long2 - @long1); Set @a = Sin(@dLat / 2) * Sin(@dLat / 2) + Cos(Radians(@lat1)) * Cos(Radians(@lat2)) * Sin(@dLon / 2) * Sin(@dLon / 2); Set @c = 2 * Asin(Min(Sqrt(@a))); Set @d = @R * @c; Return @d; End -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:50:17 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:50:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: "over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework." jc ...exactly ...as I said earlier in this thread, the ONLY reasons I'm investing time in C# are: 1: Potential employers give far more respect to C# than they do to VB/VBA ...like it or not, its true 2: There is one HELL of a lot more sample code for .net in C# than there is in VB ...again, like it or not, its true William -------------------------------------------------- From: "jwcolby" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next > line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# > really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two > >different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case > insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't > LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and > the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if > you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" > is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a > doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT > easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you > are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more > keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to > mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier > and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and > whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to > become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW > the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB > syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and > other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the >> person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI >> Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >> the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic >> or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, >> dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:53:34 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:53:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 18:12:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9EBED9.1070200@colbyconsulting.com> I am just explaining what the ; does. It is not valid nor invalid, just the facts ma'm. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 18:44:59 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:44:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 19:03:53 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:03:53 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. ?I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. ?It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 19:37:51 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:37:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 20:01:13 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:01:13 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9ED859.6050204@colbyconsulting.com> Likewise, ATM. However unlike you I am still young enough that I probably will eventually. It is best for me to prepare. In the end C# has not been so bad. Yes, VB would have been easier but not enough so to lose potential clients (or sleep) over. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. > > C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. > > I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" > something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. > > I need to stop thinking that way. > > It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of > using the GUI. > > I'm so glad I finally did! > > D > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 21:53:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:53:00 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:37:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:37:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:48:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:48:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:21:34 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:21:34 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:23:44 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:23:44 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 16 03:55:39 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:55:39 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 05:17:12 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:17:12 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But I do Gustav, When I am writing a financial proposal I put it in financial terms using standard terminology and laid out in a specific way. When I am writing a medical case for funding I put it in medical terminology and laid out in a specific way. etc etc But in all cases, I am using plain language, not interspersed with unnecessary hieroglyphics which are only there because the people who wrote the particular compilers for that language wished it to be so, not because it is necessary- you have only to look at other languages written for other compilers to know that is so. Take Stuart's PB. That is an excellent example of easy to read, high level code which compiles down to executable code - no P code etc. The reason I, and many other people, use Access is because of the RAD that it comes with. Thanks for the F# link, that is very interesting. max On 16 March 2010 08:55, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Max > > > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and > write. > > But to you F# must smell like honey: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) > > /gustav > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 06:04:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:04:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Message-ID: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. You might try to use netCOBOL: http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview Thank you. --Shamil P.S. <<< why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? >>> Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan <<< skip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:21:01 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:21:01 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Horses for Courses, Shamil > > None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are > "good" > things. > > 1. Case should be indifferent. > 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in > programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus > reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal > indentation serves the same purposes. > 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the > same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the > wrong > result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can > understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end > of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by > convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a > different matter entirely. > > Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and > verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity. > > When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from > masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Max -- > > Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally > approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the > following declarations: > > 1) string _temp; > 2) string temp; > 3) string Temp; > > are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - > they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good > programmers' > hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull > using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages > do... > > "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but > by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can > easily get similar > kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good > (unit) testing... > > "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" > as > I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', > methods', ... code lines... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Except for one thing Jim, > > Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is > diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in > logic and in implementation. > > Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it > was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting > somewhere over norther Nebraska. > > Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure > text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". > KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). > > > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so > what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who > cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are > always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does > a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who > cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > <<< skip >>> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:54:03 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:54:03 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 06:59:01 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:59:01 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Of the top of my head: Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator I degree at equator = 69.172 5 / 69.172 = .07228 So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > list of zips. > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > Does that make sense. > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > know where to find that, though I will Google more. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:01:55 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:01:55 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > <<< snip >>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:16:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:16:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000401cac502$91e8a5b0$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) <<< Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs >>> Niklaus Wirth's book (http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/books/AlgorithmE0/) was one of my first books on generic principles of programming together with Knuth's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming But that was 20th century, and we're in 21st one now. And nowadays "slogan" is "Objects + Messages = Programs" call it OOP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming) or not - it's rather different approach to Niklaus Wirth's classics... I could be missing something but IMO modern projects having hundreds of thousands/millions of code lines can't be developed and supported economically effective way by using 20-ieth century ideas... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:20:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:20:38 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 07:40:35 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:40:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Public Dan Response() If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. Fortunately, I can write code without them. End Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 07:44:53 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:44:53 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 07:47:35 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:47:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com>, <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4B9F7DE7.23980.10B22AFD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> That's what you get for "off the top of the head" :-( It should be: LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- .07228 / cosine(LatY) -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 21:59, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Of the top of my head: > > Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator > I degree at equator = 69.172 > 5 / 69.172 = .07228 > > So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY > if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 > > -- > Stuart > > > On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > > > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > > list of zips. > > > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > > Does that make sense. > > > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > > know where to find that, though I will Google more. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:57:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F8057.9030908@colbyconsulting.com> > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. No you wouldn't. The parens are often inserted INTENTIONALLY to make the equation more readable, even though it is often quite possible to cause the thing to work without them, and the math professor TEACHES US to use them to make the equation more readable and to ENSURE that it does what you intend. > Fortunately, I can write code without them. No, you can't! You use: If () then Begin end Else begin end While () begin end With() begin end Those Begin / End keywords are nothing more that parenthesis. Long, wordy, verbose parenthesis but parenthesis none the less. The parenthesis group the code into blocks that execute together. Use begin / end or {}, makes no difference to me but you are doing the exact same thing regardless. The language designer did NOT include them because they are unnecessary. (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end I LIKE a lot of things about VB but Begin / END is NOT one of them. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Public Dan Response() > > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using > parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. > > Fortunately, I can write code without them. > > End Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing > about using parenthesis to > group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we > have people bitching and > moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! > > ;) > > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > Who in their right minds would WANT > > begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end > > Which is the more readable? > > In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want > to have to take the time > and effort to learn a new way. > > I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and > breath to continue this > conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants > to do the same? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 08:01:32 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, max your arguments are specious. Begin VBA DOES USE THEM End John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and > oranges. > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > Max > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:12:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:12:00 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 08:39:47 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong since the last list rumble :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > ROTL > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > Live with it. > > Max > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. >> >> Begin >> VBA DOES USE THEM >> End >> >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Max Wanadoo wrote: >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with >> > coding....apples >> and >> > oranges. >> > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct >> > calculations >> but >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in >> > every >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU >> and >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. >> > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and >> pretend >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some >> curly >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white >> > space >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe >> Public >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" >> > >> > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. >> When I >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is >> > it >> how >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I >> can >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. >> > What >> is >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it >> > is >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic >> > and >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and >> some >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the >> other, >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. >> > >> > Max >> > _______________________________________________ >> > dba-VB mailing list >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:46:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> References: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Oh God, you joining in. Trouble at mill! Max On 16 March 2010 13:39, William Hindman wrote: > ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong > since the last list rumble :) > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM > To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > > ROTL > > > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > > > Live with it. > > > > Max > > > > > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > > > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. > >> > >> Begin > >> VBA DOES USE THEM > >> End > >> > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com < > http://www.colbyconsulting.com/> > >> > >> > >> Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with > >> > coding....apples > >> and > >> > oranges. > >> > > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct > >> > calculations > >> but > >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in > >> > every > >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > >> and > >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > >> > > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > >> pretend > >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > >> curly > >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white > >> > space > >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > >> Public > >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > >> > > >> > > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > >> When I > >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is > >> > it > >> how > >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > >> can > >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. > >> > What > >> is > >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it > >> > is > >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues > doesn't > >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic > >> > and > >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > >> some > >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > >> other, > >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > >> > > >> > Max > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > dba-VB mailing list > >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 09:59:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:59:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Message-ID: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:16:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:16:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle with your statements of learning curves. However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except when it sees an underscore before it. Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Mar 16 10:17:19 2010 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:17:19 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: <201003161454.o2GErls12123@smarthost.yourcomms.net> Yes, good practice and keeps code easier to find/manage e.g Form Load Events Control Events Data Accces Helper Misc It does take a little time, but when I do it I realise the benefit. Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: 16 March 2010 15:00 To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why not visit our website www.bury.gov.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our information security policy. The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it is for the intended recipient(s) alone. 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Electronic service accepted only at legalservices at bury.gov.uk and on fax number 0161 253 5119 . ************************************************************* From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:31:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 10:35:15 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:35:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't > have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle > with your statements of learning curves. > > However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the > end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a > line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no > way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. > Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long > SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will > break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I > almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly > that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except > when it sees an underscore before it. > > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of > the ;, just find it annoying. > > Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:34:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:34:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Wrong, JC. I bitched about complex math formulas sprinkled with parens and curly brackets and braces too. I used them, but they didn't make me happy. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:37:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:37:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: One of the things I love about .Net. When you're trying to track something down in code, it's much simpler to find the region first and dig around in there, plus it's nice to be able to collapse regions you aren't using so you don't have to look at so much code. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:41:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:02:01 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank goodness I'm in an IT department. I've always avoided those nasty developer/IT problems at work. Though on some of my side jobs, I've had to listen to other IT department 'demands'. I always just found them to be funny, sad, but funny. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 11:05:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:05:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:51:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:52:26 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:52:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:02:00 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually Gustav, you DO build system logic the way you speak and right. That's the entire purpose of a 'plain language coding method'. When you are given a task, you aren't told: 001101101001000110010100111000011010100100110111000110101011100001101100 10101010 If you are, you need to either put down the pipe, or move back to Earth...... Instead, you are told: When an Order's Total Value is less than $150, then we need to charge 15% shipping and handling, instead of 10%. In VB 6 (sorry, I know I'm behind on the VB curve...), that would be this, in the 'Order' Class: Property Get ShippingAndHandlingFee() As Currency If Me.TotalValue<$150 Then ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .15 Else ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .10 End If End Property Now, because of the 'plain language' ability of VB, anyone with a general understanding of Visual Basic would know immediately what is going on. More importantly, someone without even a hint of VB skill, could see that in the 'Order' Class, the Shipping and Handling 'Property' is 10% for orders 150 and up, and 15% for below 150. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:56 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 12:10:37 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm Message-ID: I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:18:49 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:18:49 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mean the toolbox? It's only available when you have an object open in design view. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:11 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:25:39 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:25:39 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:26:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:26:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> True Drew! Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom in agreement with many of the Listers. At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those are "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that a language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent and machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that meets those objectives. If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage in a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not talking about specialist language but general mainstream ones). To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with a cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:30:33 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:30:33 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <030F5799F4244C629648CABD8DA6103B@Server> >Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName An example of Pennsylvanian dutch spelling perhaps? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice. I know that you would not take offence. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:26 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:41:38 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:41:38 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:43:56 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:43:56 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:51:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:51:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok Max, that is just getting a little snitty..... Using ; to execute a line, or _ to extend a line.... two sides of the same fence. Using Function, End function, or { }, again, two sides of the same fence. Now, there may be reasons why one side is better than the other. There are definitely reasons why personal taste, or situations would favor one side or the other, but to just sit on one side and say 'Your side is full of posers and intellectual snobs'....... that just goes against the 'code'... the nerd code. Now place your pocket protector on the ground, and stand back five feet. Take deep breathes and calm down. Are you ready to play with the other children now? Oops, should that be { {;} } Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:45 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:52:40 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:52:40 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> Message-ID: <003e01cac531$7a347cd0$6a01a8c0@nant> Nope, Max, good modern C# code's methods/properties/... have just a few code lines, with a few leading spaces for indentation... One can also use #region statement to hide parts of large classes (if any)... IOW, no need at all to "scroll 2 miles" up and down or left to right - and I'd also note that modern programmers do use Class Diagrams/Class View when coding - no need to scroll source code lines at all... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:55:16 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:55:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:26 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:20 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:59:33 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:59:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I must admit that curly brackets affect me much as the Paradox script that used If..Then blocks with no End If. Harder than hell to figure out where one ended. With curly brackets littering the landscape and representing stuff that only C# family programmers may be able to interpret at a glance, I can't be bothered unless I really need to translate an example into equivalent VB. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:01:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:01:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ooops, I meant 'at the end of each line for execution'. I realize that ; is basically saying 'execute', which is what a CRLF in VB is doing too. In fact, you can also put multiple 'executable' lines in a single line. (At least you can in other languages that use ;, like Javascript). Though I do agree that syntax is to the language like women are to sex. They're quirky, confusing, and will smack you down for the slightest goof, but really, it's no fun without them..... My question is something Max asked. What is the real reason to change then? You've listed two that I understand (though I'm not really in that world right now), available of learning resources, and client requests. Anything else? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:35 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:58:58 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life blood of learning. I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 13:05:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:05:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:29:44 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 13:40:24 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:44:43 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:44:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok, agree, agree, agree, huh? I never said that it shouldn't have a syntax. I said that I don't see how one method is easier, or clearer then another. (Admittedly, I'm really comparing C to VB, not C# to VB.Net.....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:06 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 13:54:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:54:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 14:21:27 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:21:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Message-ID: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:52:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Anagnorisis? What's with the archaic words? I guess it's fitting in the defense of an archaic language... LOL Sorry, that was below the belt! BRIEF is only better sometimes....and really C isn't all that brief. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 14:54:26 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:56:52 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:56:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:57:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:57:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Aha, thanks. I seem to remember that in my brief foray, years ago, into VB.Net. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:59:28 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:59:28 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Aha.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:42 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:42 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:58 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: That might be dead on.... then again, I enjoy fiddling with my cars...the one I have now is the first I haven't fiddled with, and I've had it for months.... Guy thing, maybe? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:05:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:12:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:12:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 15:13:07 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:13:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:24:47 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:24:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> Message-ID: There's a neutral on all automatics, can coast with those too, people just don't, but I think this is getting a little off topic then we already were! LOL Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:41:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:41:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 15:48:10 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...apparently lots of improvements in VS2010 :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Waters" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:00 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM > To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > >> >> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... >> >> Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. >> >> I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol >> days >> that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing >> out >> thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the >> examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on >> earth >> would I want to go back to that?..." >> >> Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the >> part >> of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of >> code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. >> >> The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the >> non-compilation >> and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. >> >> I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the >> supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is >> a >> "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on >> that >> back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly >> reason >> why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net >> route >> with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he >> stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. >> Most >> programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and >> code >> examples are the life blood of learning. >> >> I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. >> >> >> Max >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Drew -- >> >> OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's >> good >> enough for me. >> >> Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil {^;^} >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, >> relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" >> >> The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. >> >> Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an >> End >> Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End >> Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now >> I'm >> looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, >> another >> {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that >> 3 >> or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers >> 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is >> indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End >> Function'? >> >> Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus >> it's >> the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for >> you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me >> a >> clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the >> end >> of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a >> procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? >> >> Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again >> did } >> just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down >> to >> get too? >> >> Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell >> me, >> 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know >> when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is >> missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting >> told, >> hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the >> language >> is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less >> ambiguous >> to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. >> >> Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! >> >> ;) >> >> Drew >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> OK, Max :) >> >> Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do >> enhance >> code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as >> brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - >> '{' >> and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable >> (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and >> code >> blocks will become ambiguous... >> >> Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just >> IMO) >> using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise >> and >> as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... >> >> And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) >> substitutes: >> >> - Namespace ... End Namespace >> - Module ... End Module >> - Class ... End Class >> - Sub ... End Sub >> - Function ... End Function >> - For ... Next >> - While ... End While >> - If .... Then ... End If >> - ... >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> -- >> Shamil {^;^} >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:52:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 16:06:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Message-ID: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 16:27:58 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <0C730E13A7E44B34BCBD09EC29FB4D20@jislaptopdev> ...nice find William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Shamil Salakhetdinov" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:06 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... > > Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more > often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just > found it)?: > > http://langpop.com/ > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company > like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. > > I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and > new > programmers eventually become the only programmers. > > We'll see what happens! > > Thanks! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>>> > No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very > intensively > used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation > system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... > > Look at "MONO" sources... > > No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to > use C# as you're only starting with .NET... > > With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than > anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features > (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all > that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then > they > will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but > will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... > > I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB > programmers? > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > To Everyone! > > This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where > the > two languages have the same functionality. > > So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only > as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. > > MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can > switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of > Visual > Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. > > What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding > where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will > do > is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as > possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're > not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 > years C# is going to be deprecated. > > Thanks! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do > in > C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to > stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, > so > it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you > can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a > lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the > language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and > possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for > "professional" > programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed > Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# > and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is > destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) > > LOL. > > I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't > using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, > and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you > didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be > completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. > > But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually > coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this > specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of > 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, > and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to > their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds > and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even > relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost > impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without > picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) > > So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' > grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little > more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In > the examples: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Can be written as... > class SomeClass > { > public int SomeField { Get; } > } > > 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: > > Public SomeField as Integer > > No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a > simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) > * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make > anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the > function. > > Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. > > If Something Then > Do Something > Else > Do SomethingElse > End if > > Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. > > Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be > actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense > within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is > the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is > there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that > others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally > nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't > program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB > 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would > like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world > at all, right now!) > > Drew > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:07:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:07:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <30BCC27727E54DA082A8ABDB6BD89733@Server> > f course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) Oh dear, you sound like my (ex) wife(s). Always seeing fault where non-exists... Max Ps - I am definitely with you on Automatics. It is particulary relevant over here where traffic queues are everywhere. Where is the fun moving neutral-1st-neutral-1st-neutral-1st-woah-2nd-back to 1st. Let the auto gears take the strain. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:12:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:12:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <515E9ADEF83D4C7EB8EA1B64FD9BA930@Server> >I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing Neither am I. This is correct Drew (snuggling up again)... I just thing that they are so unnecessary and clutter the screen when what I was to see if the code, not pretty curlers. I have seen programmers put Tabs chars of 4 or even 6 so the code can indent. Huh, 2 is quite sufficient thank you and 1 will do. I can see an indent without being smacking in the face with it. Horses for courses. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:14:54 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:14:54 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server><7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Indeed and very similar. On the way, I went the Foxbase and Foxpro route when I moved from Ashton Tate and then, when MS acquired Fox, I moved to Access with its much aclaimed Rushmore Jet technology. Fluffery is spot on. What it compiles down to is what matters. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:20:31 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:20:31 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <11F3C72A8FDA40BFAF6F13D1C0CB853C@Server> I am with you William. For me, the biggest help in coding is the Indenter which keeps all my ducks lined up and I can see quickly when my END is missing. Sometimes, I am really good, I put the For and Next in before the stuff in the middle. Doesn't happen too often as I am not that disciplined but the Indenter sorts it for me. I would love to be able to collapse and expand code based on For/Next/While/Wend etc. That would be neat. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on > spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I > looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and > say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the > part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the > borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation > of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it > is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I > started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There > is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in > preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one > put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was > MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples > of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life > blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, > clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see > an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking > for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a > {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a > { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and > oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. > Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify > that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really > less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this > term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how > does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells > me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I > just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just > ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again > did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've > scrolled down to get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will > tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a > }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting > told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack > sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH > easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate > relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, > then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do > enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, > accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic > (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO > just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise > and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:23:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <1A4874BDA8BD43359C6CE6227DCB6F25@Server> This is so true, I am working with Serif Webplus X4 which is really, really cool. CMS (content management systems) the lot. Forums, Facebook, all that sort of stuff all there for you at a few clicks if you want it. We are moving into a new realm. The whole shebang about ?40. Once again, spot on Drew (snuggle) Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 17:27:13 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:34:14 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:34:14 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 17:47:43 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:47:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <261B9616BB3D4282BA18D8434BB3364A@danwaters> I see a slightly higher usage rate for C# over Visual Basic. Remember though, all that data is now invalid because that was based on when the two languages had different features. With that in mind, you would expect one of them to be more preferred than the other. But with VS 2010, it's a new game. Neither language does more or less than the other. And that's the basis of all my comments today. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:07 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:25:38 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:25:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:26:07 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:26:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Gone in 2003 forward. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 20:56:18 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:56:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...slaps head, grits teeth, sighs ...thanks for telling me ...now :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlotte Foust" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but > again, it was years ago. > > I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as > much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples > I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for > what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API > calls from other languages and using them in VB. > > As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are > difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, > and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about > it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I > think. So that's simply a personal preference. > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William > Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process > it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I > stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and > then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I > know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its > any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have > to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 21:12:33 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:12:33 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , Message-ID: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 21:57:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:57:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA04505.8060009@colbyconsulting.com> Why, isn't that Begin Grin g End Grin ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:37:36 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: No, Stuart I did mean CLI (Common Language Infrastructure). You might also find the following link interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI_languages Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:51:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:51:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <509DF0D44A54489EAE5BB149BBA95966@creativesystemdesigns.com> I have been caught many times with such simple errors and that is just with VB/VBA. On the other hand with the syntax checker in the frame work of your choice, can catch most anything. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:57:42 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:57:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <4B9BC100C678430391C44118001307EA@creativesystemdesigns.com> You are making me laugh... Max. I never thought I would find programming so humorous. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 17 00:40:10 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:10 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I programmed for a number of years in the best programming language I have ever seen. It had the tightest code with the smallest number of Operands. It compiled code into very small fast executables. When you finished a code group you just put down a period... now that is simple. The language was called Clarion and I am sure few have heard of it but I wrote a number of excellent applications with the product. I have not used it for many years and doubt whether it even exists now. Times move on... all languages fade and disappear but there are always new great languages coming along. (Except C which is such a dumb language that it does not even check its variable types... if you hear of a stack-overflow rest assured someone has been programming in C again.) I think the .Net frame work is great because it has so many flavours. If you get bored with one flavour just pick another. I have a friend who is raving about Eiffel.Net?? (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms973898.aspx) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:34:19 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:34:19 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:39:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:39:47 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:53:09 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:53:09 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002901cac59e$82660870$6a01a8c0@nant> Forgot to post the link on MS Singularity OS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_%28operating_system%29 --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 02:55:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:55:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] The Last One In-Reply-To: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <16FA5A36341A432994174DEF2C5A5710@Server> Thank you so much for that link, Shamil. I can remember reading and following this saga as it unravelled in my life time courtesy of PCW which was required reading for me in those days. Oh, happy memories. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 03:55:27 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:55:27 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Me Too Arthur, I also spent time (1-2 days) a year or two ago automating and shipping backups to another server, Since I started using RedGate Backup, I just love it. But I love RedGate SQL Prompt even more. Having said that, I could not currently work without Redgate Compare and Redgate Data Compare. They have saved me days and days of time. Mark On 11 March 2010 20:42, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 04:01:18 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:01:18 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark On 13 March 2010 18:09, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. > > I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working > copy on my laptop. If > anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the > server to get a fresh copy. > I have wanted to do this for a long time. > > The obvious next question is... Access? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > William Hindman wrote: > > "if you are a little confused" > > > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > > > William > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Gustav Brock" > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > > To: > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > > > >> Hi John > >> > >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > >> may happen if you are a little confused. > >> > >> /gustav > >> > >> > >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >> > >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two > different > >> machines, and so far it is just me. > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >> > >> > >> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>> Hi John > >>> > >>> So now you are a lucky man! > >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. > >>> > >>> /gustav > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I > >>> assume. > >>> > >>> John W. Colby > >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>>> Hi John > >>>> > >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. > >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > >>>> > >>>> /gustav > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 04:21:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:21:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-studio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 08:52:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:52:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:28:04 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:28:04 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one ways to do this. But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in subject. 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a specified Top Level Folder. 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment and work on it. 5. The application will then email the results back to him. Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and then do the same without the excel s/sheet. Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the rule. Many ways Now tell me you don't use outlook!! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 09:34:21 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:21 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001201cac5de$f0584a10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I suppose you can make a Web Service with two methods: - first one to upload a spreadsheet with zips, and start your "machination" running as a Windows Service; - second one to query for results; Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 09:49:19 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:49:19 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Wed Mar 17 09:57:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice link! I liked this line: "In the same manner, we will experience dramatic progress over the coming decades, but it won't feel as dramatic while we are actually experiencing it." The old frog in boiling water scenario. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 09:59:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:59:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> Message-ID: <4BA0EE46.3030107@colbyconsulting.com> Max, Actually I don't use outlook, though I know how to automate it in VBA (Access). But I am doing this in C# or .Net. Thanks for the suggestion. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. > > My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one > ways to do this. > > But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: > > 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in > subject. > 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a > specified Top Level Folder. > 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. > 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment > and work on it. > 5. The application will then email the results back to him. > > Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and > then do the same without the excel s/sheet. > > Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the > rule. > > Many ways > > Now tell me you don't use outlook!! > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM > To: VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific > client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." > kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex > process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to > do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how > would i go about doing something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new > "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. > I don't know how to build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but > hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a > machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL > Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. > Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year > or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the > loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, > log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do > a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the > loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my > time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:00:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:00:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:13:32 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:13:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:30:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F5A5.9030800@colbyconsulting.com> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:54 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL Charlotte -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:42:08 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA0F850.6050409@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. They are easy to lose, not as In Your Face as a ton of BEGIN / ENDs. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL > > Charlotte > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:43:36 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:36 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:49:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F9FC.1020809@colbyconsulting.com> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> > I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the > list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty > much just looking for something like: > > Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population > 56 127,435 437,329 > > Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list > across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to > potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: > > 1) Create a working directory using the order number > 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory > 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) > 4) Import the data into that order database > 5) Run the queries and get the counts > 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. > > This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): > > 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. > 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers > > No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. > > I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. > > They would be THRILLED with this. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> Too bad. >> Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> >> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >>> >>> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dw-murphy at cox.net Wed Mar 17 11:48:04 2010 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:48:04 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: One way to do this is with web services. I have a client who wants to keep order data on a local access database, but also has a web order entry system that I built in ASP.NET. The ASP.NET site uses a SQL server database. I keep them in synch with web services. Works well. A more .NET type approach would be to use the entity framework and Windows Communcation Foundation. It looked really attractive for the project I mentioned but we originally started with a version of SQL Server that wasn't supported. Don't remember much about it except that it would have been easier to build. I don't understand the theory behind a lot of the .NET stuff but it does seem to work as advertised. Doug -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:53 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 11:51:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#DownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:20:48 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to transfer data. Web services are really easy. You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is almost as easy as a webpage. I can help you out with those if you need. You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. David McAfee On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... ?What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 12:20:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:20:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cac5f6$31b1c100$6a01a8c0@nant> Thank you, Gustav, Yes, John, making simple ASP.NET Web Services is an easy exercise, and as Gustav noted we have a sample of such a web service on nowthwind.codeplex.com... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:52 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#D ownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:54:38 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:54:38 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171054t3cf32a37t673d465051d605d2@mail.gmail.com> This is how I pull data from my SQLCE database and send it to my webservice: (You would be reading from a CSV file instead) private void moveInvHdrFromSdfToSQL() { localhost.Service1 MyObj = new localhost.Service1(); SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection CEconn; CEconn = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection(("Data Source =" + (PathPC + FileName))); CEconn.Open(); string strSQL = "SELECT ICNo,StoreNo,InvNo,InvDate,CustPoNo,ResaleFlag,CrMemoFlag,SelForPrtFlag FROM tblInvHdr"; SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter CEda = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter(strSQL, CEconn); DataSet ds = new DataSet(); CEda.Fill(ds, "InvHdr"); string RtnMsg = MyObj.InsertInvHdr(ds); if ((RtnMsg != "InvHdr data inserted")) { throw new Exception(RtnMsg); } CEda.Dispose(); CEconn.Close(); CEconn.Dispose(); } and this is the webservice being called: [WebMethod()] public string InsertInvHdr(string strInput, DataSet dsIn) { int errNum; string errMsg; SqlConnection myConnection; SqlCommand myCommand; DataRow row; try { myConnection = new SqlConnection("server=MyServerName;uid=MyLogin;pwd=MyPW;database=MyDataBaseName"); myConnection.Open(); myCommand = new SqlCommand(); myCommand.Connection = myConnection; foreach (row in dsIn.Tables[0].Rows) { myCommand.CommandText = ("EXEC stpInsertIntoInvHdr \'" + (row["ICNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["StoreNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvDate"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["CustPoNo"].ToString().Replace(''', "||") + ("\', " + (row["ResaleFlag"].ToString() + (", " + (row["CrMemoFlag"].ToString() + (", " + row["SelForPrtFlag"].ToString()))))))))))))))); myCommand.ExecuteNonQuery(); } return "InvHdr data inserted"; myConnection.Close(); } catch (Exception ex) { errNum = Err.Number; errMsg = ex.Message; return ("SQL/WS Error: WS.InsertInvHdr - " + (errNum + (":" + errMsg))); } } And this is the Stored procedure: (I've simplified it a bit, just to save time) CREATE PROCEDURE stpInsertIntoInvHdr( @ICnum AS VARCHAR(10), @StoreNo AS VARCHAR(16), @InvNo AS VARCHAR (8), @InvDate AS VARCHAR(22), @CustPoNo AS VARCHAR (20), @ResaleFlag AS INT, @CrMemoFlag AS INT, @SelForPrtFlag AS INT) AS INSERT INTO InvHdr (ICNo, StoreNo, InvNo, InvDate, CustPoNo, ResaleFlag, CrMemoFlag, SelForPrtFlag) VALUES (@ICnum, @StoreNo, @InvNo, @InvDate, @CustPoNo, @ResaleFlag, at CrMemoFlag, at SelForPrtFlag) This is using a SQL 2000 database, if you are using SQL Server 2008, you don't have to insert line by line and can actually do a bulk insert, which is even easier. David On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David McAfee wrote: > John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to > transfer data. > > Web services are really easy. > > You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is > almost as easy as a webpage. > > I can help you out with those if you need. > > You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. > > David McAfee > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with >> me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a >> moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do >> is to make it a process that they can do themselves. >> >> My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing >> something like this. >> >> 1) The client is in NY. >> 2) The data is in my server in NC >> 3) The server is Windows 2003 >> 4) SQL Server 2008 >> 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# >> 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which >> essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. >> >> So... ?What are my options? >> >> 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to >> build a web app. >> 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my >> office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. >> 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. >> >> At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a >> directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to >> get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. >> >> I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or >> 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows >> them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time >> they do a count. >> >> Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a >> little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 17 18:08:36 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:08:36 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN References: Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> I'm using Tortoise. It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I didn't look into it. Cheers Michael M Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 06:33:00 From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 17 18:40:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:40:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> References: , <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 20:18:58 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:18:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA17F82.8040203@colbyconsulting.com> I am using VisualVSN integrated into VS2008. It is dead easy. It is also pretty cheap at $50 / seat. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > I'm using Tortoise. > It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. > > Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 > virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) > Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it > had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I > didn't look into it. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > Hi Mark > > I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu > dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh > > Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: > > http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ > > However, I haven't experimented with any of these. > > /gustav > > >>>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> > Just check the mdb in John. > > It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will > version control the mdb file. > > It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage > sizes nowadays anyway :o) > > it is very comforting to check files in and out. > > Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives > you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:15:30 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:15:30 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would second that thought of slowly moving to web based entry forms. It is sort of half way in between being sent all the data and then you having to manage it and sending the results back. By building a web form the data can be controlled or at least partially managed by the client and then you just have to manage the BE. I also use a combination of Hamachi VPN (a LogMeIn component) and Filezilla (a very secure FTP client and Server) to move large blocks of data back and forth. The free LogMeIn module does not have data transfer... Bigger clients either have and can use MS Remote Desktop Connection or Linux/Unix based clients have Citrix. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:49 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:21:11 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:21:11 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:29:55 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:29:55 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <022ABAA50D8C4690817E6CD2DAF92FD3@creativesystemdesigns.com> Stuart: ...Or FileZilla for example. Server version will set listener to any port ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:32:07 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:56:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:56:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A6F1FBE1E984015B4936A3A360DCA80@Server> Doug, I use FileZilla Server (free) and that maintains a list of banned IP addresses as well as a log showing who was trying to get in. Blocked Ips can be timed specific. Not sure about FileZilla Client, but may have the same. I log them and then check back on what names they were using to try to guess the password - quite funny some of them. There are others. New: Automatically block IP addresses after a specific number of failed login attempts. http://www.pablosoftwaresolutions.com/html/quick__n_easy_ftp_server.html http://software.informer.com/getfree-bullet-ftp-block-ip-address/ Do a google for "ftp block ip addresses" Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:32 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 14:22:10 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:22:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Thu Mar 18 14:33:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:33:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:36:48 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:36:48 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:55:17 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:55:17 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 19:31:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:31:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA2C5CB.7060703@colbyconsulting.com> You would think that the UK would be one place you could get him prosecuted. Of course that assumes that he really is in the UK. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Going OT but I gotta share :-) > I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. > We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. > Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account > and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! > Who would do that??? > I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's > hard to see his payment :-) > He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... > The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the > incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? > I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to > collect but decided it was too much effort. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute > force your PW. It keeps him > from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" > scams. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi Jim: >> >> I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data > from >> clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the > server >> screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying > to >> brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third > wrong >> guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break > in, but >> it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming >> ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which > can be >> all over the place. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence > wrote: >>> Hi Gustav: >>> >>> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so >>> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 22:47:35 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:47:35 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. It works very and I have never had any problems since. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 23:16:14 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:16:14 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003182116o5976ec7evfdc37d3ca19477b6@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jim. I'll definitely take your advice about port 21. Our passwords are pretty strong - as I said, there haven't been any successful attacks. I haven't tried a VPN. I was exaggerating slightly about China; lots of the hackers are in North America, so banning IP ranges would only be a partial solution. I did once try working through an ISP's abuse department, but ended up spending quite a bit of time only to discover that, basically, they didn't care and weren't going to do anything. Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. > > 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. > 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. > 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. > 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" > 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. > 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com > 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. > > It works very and I have never had any problems since. > HTH > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, > but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can > be > all over the place. > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 23:58:52 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: Micheal: This happens all the time with sites like Craig's list. There has happened so many time people scammed that banks will not even back cheques any more. Only deal with cash... Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 00:52:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:52:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Fri Mar 19 00:57:26 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:26 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/19/10 06:33:00 From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 01:41:37 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:37 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local><001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001c01cac72f$3a71b040$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, but in this his last issue he promises to publish something new, even better - and the subject tutorial is one of the best his works I suppose... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:57 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 09:10:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:10:13 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 11:42:38 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:38 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 11:52:52 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:52:52 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Gustav -- That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st udio-2008-together/ I must note I haven't used it yet. Thank you. --Shamii -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 19 12:26:24 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26494BC39BA443D9B01695E02869F25C@creativesystemdesigns.com> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:10 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 12:41:12 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:41:12 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FTP server (was: Goin' for the (browser based) gold) Message-ID: Hi Jim OK, I'll make a note on this. Sounds very nice. Just about the only feature I recall to have used is virtual folders which FTP of IIS handles well. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 19-03-2010 18:26 >>> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 13:11:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:11:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Outlook Macros In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223BF14B7E204BB7B60941E00BBF592D@Server> I have just written some code to move all accessList emails from all the initial folder into other folders based on the subject matter, creating a new folder as necessary. They are now grouped by subject instead of person (which I had before and that was impossible to follow threads). I can run that code from Access or from within Outlook by selecting Tools/Macro/Macros or Alt-F8 and then clicking Run. The Outlook Macro options do not appear to have any way to RECORD a Macro so that I can run it directly with a hot-key. IS this correct, because it sound strange when other office apps have this facility. I don't want to go via the macro menu if I can avoid it. Thanks Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 08:37:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart Message-ID: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time configuration". Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it configured VS for first time use. I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there and seems to be functioning. A little strange! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:19:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:19:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Call for development assistance Message-ID: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective advocates. First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ For my state the link is: http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a system for coordinating the graduates. What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web site. Sigh. So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people with a disability. Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: http://consumer-action.org/ This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. Thanks, -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:58:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for development assistance In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA8D708.2000901@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Susan! If it works, eventually this thing will be huge I think. In the meantime I am going to need SQL Server stuff, C# stuff and ASP.Net stuff. Lots for everyone to do I am sure. Not to mention brainstorming, high level planning, documentation and so much more. I would like to be able to do startup in time for my last session which will be in the November time frame. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Susan Harkins wrote: >> Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and >> let's make this thing happen. > > ======JC, count me in -- I have no experience in building web sites, but I'm > sure there's something I could do to help, and I'm not opposing to learning > new skills. > > Susan H. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 14:20:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:20:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for Development In-Reply-To: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> References: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> Message-ID: <4BA9147B.2040903@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Randy! I will do some organization stuff to allow us all to work together and then call a meeting. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Randy Sigmond wrote: > John, > > > > Count me in! > > > > I have experience in C#, ASP.NET & SQL Development. > > > > Randy Sigmond > > > > Ps - I can be found on LinkedIn.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From garykjos at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:37:50 2010 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart In-Reply-To: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Patch Tuesday maybe? GK On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time > configuration". ?Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it > configured VS for first time use. > > I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. > > Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. ?It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there > and seems to be functioning. > > A little strange! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:16:49 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> Message-ID: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:46:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up Message-ID: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes docked on that side and so forth. Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio Brain Farts). Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:59:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:59:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? From dwaters at usinternet.com Wed Mar 24 08:38:09 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:38:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the same: 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click Next 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 08:42:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Sometimes Microsoft really is good Message-ID: <4BAA16D5.8090605@colbyconsulting.com> I had an issue with Visual Studio, it decided that I was using it for the first time. BOO! I had to reconfigure how the panes dock. BOO! When I finished and tried to run, the application crashed. BOO! It reported the error. YEAAA! It told me I needed to download a hotfix. YEAAA! It took me directly to the page to get the hotfix! YEAAA! Which I did. Now, I have no idea whether this is going to actually fix it or not but it is in areas like this that I am impressed with Microsoft. Yea, bugs are a PITA, but we all have them. It is how we handle them that makes the difference and MS really handles that side of things well IMHO. To have a list of bugs, the specific patch that fixes it, the reporting that finds it, and the system to get it and install it is pretty cool. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 09:25:21 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:25:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA20D1.7050907@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Dan, that was it. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the > same: > > 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... > 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next > 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click > Next > 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish > > Good Luck, > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up > > OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the > middle it would dock on > the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing > new there) but I am at > least working. > > Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears > that maybe it didn't > set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the > project. Now F6 is ignored > and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it > immediately offers to build > a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells > VS which environment to > use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, > if I pinned them open >> they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at > the top, the next would >> be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me > to select the panes >> docked on that side and so forth. >> >> Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by > side, taking up just TONS >> of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that > got reset (see Visual Studio >> Brain Farts). >> >> Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mikedorism at verizon.net Wed Mar 24 16:12:19 2010 From: mikedorism at verizon.net (Doris Manning) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:12:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, If you could use another body, I'd be happy to throw my hat into the ring. I am familiar with SQL Server and C#. Looking to improve my web UI skills. Doris Manning Senior Developer/Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:17 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server; VBA Subject: Re: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 20:45:06 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:45:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 24 20:58:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:58:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos References: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582E33@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, I feel your pain :-) If you have a BindingSource for the combo you can apply a filter there. Heres my code for filtering a DataGridView. BS.Filter = "Archived = False And " + String.Format ( "ReceivedDate >= '{0:yyyy-MM-dd}'", DateTime.Today.AddMonths (-3 )); There is a remove filter method as well. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 25 March 2010 12:45 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/25/10 06:33:00 From Gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 25 05:38:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: Hi John You are doing it right and you will end up with three icons per source. If that bothers you, you will notice that the code for creating these are held in the designer code of the form. They can be moved to the code module if you like, and then the icons will not be present. Here is an example where a predefined dataset is used: public partial class FormMain : Form { public DataSetDL DlDataSet = new DataSetDL(); public FormMain() { InitializeComponent(); InitializeDataSet(); InitializeFolders(); } private void FillEmployerComboBox() { DataSetDL.DataTableEmployerDataTable dataTableEmployer = DlDataSet.DataTableEmployer; EmployerComboBox.SelectedItem = "Id"; EmployerComboBox.DisplayMember = "Organisation"; EmployerComboBox.DataSource = dataTableEmployer; } } InitializeDataSet fills the datasets from an XML file. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 25-03-2010 02:45 >>> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 07:29:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:29:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 08:29:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] One or more objects access this field Message-ID: <4BACB6AF.7090508@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to do a drop column from a sql statement and it failed with that error message. AFAICT I had no cursors etc open that displayed that field. I eventually went into design view of the table and manually deleted the column and that worked. Any ideas why something like this occurs? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 26 14:18:01 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:18:01 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I do use it here: http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 06:17:52 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:17:52 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:18:53 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:32:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:32:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE170C.10205@colbyconsulting.com> Mark, It is too expensive for me. I am currently using VisualSVN and it is "enough" for my simple needs, and at $50 / seat is cheap enough to actually afford and buy, though I haven't done so yet - still on the 30 day review. ATM I have just me and I am in the process of bringing in two or three students to learn and then assist me in my C# / SQL Server project, which is 1/2 of my business and income right now. I would switch to Mercurial if: I can make the switch. I can get transparent integration to VS2008. It is cheap / free. It provides recognizable benefits over VisualSVN. The bottom line is that what I have works, and it was dead simple to get working and to use. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Mark Breen wrote: > Hello All, > > I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. > It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. > > IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for > Mecurial - or did I not get it right? > > I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering > downloading and installing it here. > > What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could > set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not > really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. > > Thanks > > Mark > > > > > On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi John -- >> >> I do use it here: >> >> http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets >> >> But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >> >> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >>> Hi Gustav -- >>> >>> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >>> >>> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >>> >>> >> http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >>> udio-2008-together/ >>> >>> I must note I haven't used it yet. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> --Shamii >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock >>> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM >>> To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi Shamil and Michael >>> >>> But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic >> light" >>> sub-icons. >>> >>> Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all >> evil >>> to maintain. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> >>> Hi Shamil, >>> >>> Beat me to it..lol >>> Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial >>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html >>> >>> >>> Talk about timing :-) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >>> Salakhetdinov >>> Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM >>> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >>> Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged >> (:)) >>> if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be >> polite): >>> http://hginit.com/ >>> >>> I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago >>> (before I did find this article/tutorial). >>> >>> Enjoy! ;) >>> >>> -- >>> Shamil >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 10:04:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler Message-ID: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 14:22:26 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:22:26 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... All these tools are free. As I'm working with a Codeplex project (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis When working with student support team you'd probably not need any Mercurial servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with some training it should go smoothly): - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as many folders as the size of students' support team you have; - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; - ... - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's call it STDSET1; - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); - ... - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and overwrite cloned source folder for this student; - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's cloned repository; - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) to the main repository; - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - ... - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their changes to get MAINSET_vX; - ... - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as a default one; - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm "all ears".... Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve step. There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG to create Mercurial repository. If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with SVN. Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject tool. There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all ears"... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 14:52:11 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:52:11 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello John and Shamil, I too consider Kiln expensive and I feel I could manage the command line commands. if nothing else, using command line will ensure that I learn the tool. I was mentioning Kiln from the point of view that if Joel has launched an interface for it, he must consider it "One to Watch" for the future. I am like you, and work mostly alone, so I could continue to use SVN, but I think that Merurial might be worth learning so I am watching this space. thanks Mark On 27 March 2010 19:22, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. > > I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - > TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... > > All these tools are free. > > As I'm working with a Codeplex project > (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do > not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. > > As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers > but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi > r-on-iis > > When working with student support team you'd probably not need any > Mercurial > servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with > some training it should go smoothly): > > - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as > many > folders as the size of students' support team you have; > - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; > - ... > - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's > call it STDSET1; > - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send > changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); > - ... > - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and > overwrite cloned source folder for this student; > - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's > cloned repository; > - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); > - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default > => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) > to > the main repository; > - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from > student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - ... > - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their > changes to get MAINSET_vX; > - ... > - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; > - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as > a default one; > - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... > > See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ > > The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. > If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm > "all > ears".... > > Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched > above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source > control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve > step. > > There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm > formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... > > Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) > to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support > files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG > to > create Mercurial repository. > > If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with > SVN. > > Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject > tool. > There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss > > If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise > tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all > ears"... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Shamil, > > I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your > source control? If so do > you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / > inexpensively with Visual > studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into > Murcurial? Are you > available as a source for coaching us through the change? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi John -- > > > > I do use it here: > > > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > > > John W. Colby > > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi Gustav -- > >> > >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > >> > >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > >> > >> > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > >> udio-2008-together/ > >> > >> I must note I haven't used it yet. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> --Shamii > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 15:01:07 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:01:07 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant><4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000701cacde8$3e94db10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Mark -- As I noted in my reply to JC in this thread Mercurial tools (including Visual Studio plug-in and web server) are free. If you can set Central Mercurial Server (to play with) on your publicly available IIS web server and post reproducible setup steps that would be very useful for many developers AFAICS: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484151/how-to-setup-mercurial-central-re pository-on-shared-hosting http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Breen Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 16:39:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:39:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: <4BAE7B0F.1060707@colbyconsulting.com> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 16:54:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:54:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John It is 1 that is True. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 17:06:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:06:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAE814B.4050902@colbyconsulting.com> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 17:19:18 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:19:18 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 07:36:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Sun Mar 28 08:24:39 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:24:39 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Hi Gustav, What is MyBooleanOrBitField? Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 28 10:18:44 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:18:44 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> References: , <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Message-ID: <4BAF7354.22705.17DE841A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> An example name fo the Boolean( Access BE) or Bit (SQL Server BE) field he is working with. -- Stuart On 28 Mar 2010 at 8:24, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Gustav, > > What is MyBooleanOrBitField? > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? > > Hi John > > That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and > false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is > - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. > I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to > use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to > make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. > > /gustav > > >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> > Any idea why it displays as -1? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > It is 1 that is True. > > > > /gustav > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I > have a bit field and > > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out > records. If I try == True it > > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set > (true). > > > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it > display -1 but I can't > > test for that? > > > > TIA > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 28 14:22:07 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:22:07 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. To look up a record here is one method I use. ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: private void ChangeCustomerSelection() { if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) { _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); } else { this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() { this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); } Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: private void SaveRow() { if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) { // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) { bool enableSave = this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; if (enableSave) { this.Validate(false); if (FormValidated()) { this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; // Enable selection of customer. this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; } } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } } } private bool FormValidated() { // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) { return false; } if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) { return false; } return true; } This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 17:40:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:40:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAFDAF3.7070707@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Gustav, This is the kind of stuff I need. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 21:31:02 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:31:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB010E6.5090106@colbyconsulting.com> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 29 02:21:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:21:13 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John That is a method created by VS when you add a custom select query to a DataTable in the designer (right-click at the bottom of the box holding the table). As one of the last steps, the wizard offers to create two methods, GetData() and Fill(), which you can rename, and this I do to reflect what the query - and thus the method - does. It is all stored in the xsd file of the dataset as this snip of the XML shows: SELECT CustomerId, EmailAddress, EmailAddressType, Id, Inactive, Name FROM CustomerEmail WHERE (CustomerId = @CustomerId) ORDER BY Name /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 29-03-2010 04:31 >>> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 30 08:59:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Message-ID: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:16:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:16:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: So you're talking about using the combo as a navigational tool? We create user controls for this purpose and load them into the header area of the form. Our nav controls have next/prev buttons and a combo that allows the user to select a particular record. The nav control has a handler in the form and the form sinks the results of a change in value and calls a routine to reload the data for the form using a where clause built on the nav control value. Or possibly uses the data for the filter property of a dataview and sets the binding context of the form to that. There are other possibilities that I leave you to discover. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:36 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:22:08 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler In-Reply-To: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, We use an IsValid method on each of our forms/subforms and call that before allowing the user to leave a form. The routine tests against any rules we've established to determine whether this is a valid record, and if it is, it calls an update routine and returns a true value to the calling object. If you use the bindingcontext of the datasource and EndCurrentEdit, you can reliably call HasChanges and if so update the datasource. With a grid, the IsValid method is called from the validating event of the grid, so it is triggered when the grid loses focus or adds or changes a row. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:04 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 30 14:00:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:00:54 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control In-Reply-To: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001c01cad03b$548990f0$6a01a8c0@nant> VisualHG - http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ Mercurial isn't "so much better" - it's different, and more suitable for distributed source control... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:00 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 31 16:11:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:11:47 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance Message-ID: <000f01cad116$c7608e40$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, If you haven't yet got collected a set of "bird view" links on MS Application Platform here it's: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance http://blogs.msdn.com/jmeier/archive/2010/02/08/mapping-out-the-microsoft-ap plication-platform-at-a-glance.aspx Thank you. -- Shamil From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 4 07:24:29 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:24:29 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform Message-ID: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 09:07:59 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:07:59 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003040707x505c97f3ja15514f5440d37c1@mail.gmail.com> This site: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/?lang=cs#master has a bunch of excellent tutorials, with several on master/detail forms. Doug On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:24 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out > how to do that in C#, > probably using a DataGridView as the subform. > > I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do > the parent/child link > thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the > child table. Basically I > want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the > subform automatically > display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / > child table. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 4 10:45:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:45:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: There are a variety of ways to do it, John. The simplest I've found is to create a usercontrol with whatever controls I need on it, grid, listview, textboxes, whatever. The usercontrol usually has a public method called FillData with arguments for the values needed to sync the usercontrol to the parent form. When we use FillData, the subform fills its own datasource using the arguments passed in. This acts pretty much like the master/child links in Access. An alternative is to fill the dataset at the parent form and simply pass a datarow to the usercontrol. Or possibly the entire dataset if you're using a grid. You would only do that when the subform is causing changes to the parent form because they share fields. Not an ideal situation but one that happens sometimes. We most commonly run into the need when we have a grid that includes a button to popup a child form. Since changes to the child form also changes the data displayed in the grid (which shows a subset of information), we pass the datarow to the child form so that the changes are automatically made as if a ByRef were being used. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:24 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 13:21:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:21:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view Message-ID: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:19:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: UPDATE vSplitZip SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:39:05 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:39:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From drawbridgej at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 5 15:30:34 2010 From: drawbridgej at sympatico.ca (Jack and Pat) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, Glad you solved it. I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = Right([zip9],4); jack -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:39 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.; Sqlserver-Dba Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2723 - Release Date: 03/05/10 02:34:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 16:00:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:00:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B917EF6.6050607@colbyconsulting.com> Jack, That would, in this specific case, because in this case everything is contained in a single table. I am trying to solve a larger problem however which is that I often have to do updates to views where I am joining table A to Table B On PKID and then updating tableA.FieldA = TableB.FieldA. I am not a SQL guru and I do not play one on TV, but the only way I know how to do that is to save the query as a view, then update the view. By learning how to use Common Table Expressions (CTEs), I can create the view "in memory" and update it right then and there. What I used to do was create the query in code, then save the query (as a view) in code, then update the saved view in code. The issue I ran into is that TSQL didn't like to save a query using the DBName.Dbo.Viewname syntax. IOW the stored procedure doing all of this had to be stored in and executed from the database that the view would be saved in. I am trying to create a library of stored procedures that can be run against any database and stored in a "library" database. This CTE thingie provides me with that "indirection". John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jack and Pat wrote: > John, > Glad you solved it. > > I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > > UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = > Right([zip9],4); > > jack From raibeart at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 11:29:31 2010 From: raibeart at gmail.com (Robert Stewart) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:29:31 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] dba-VB Digest, Vol 77, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b93e26a.5644f10a.1ac0.0e83@mx.google.com> That is the correct and simple way of doing it Jack. At 12:00 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 >From: "Jack and Pat" >Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view >To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming > issues.'" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >John, >Glad you solved it. > >I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > >UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = >Right([zip9],4); > >jack From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 16:18:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx Message-ID: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 8 18:06:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John: That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short sighted.) Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 22:08:34 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:08:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B95C9C2.3060505@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, not at all. They need something to spend their time on. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the > industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the > universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short > sighted.) > > Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx > > An interesting read > > http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 14:47:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:47:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Message-ID: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in version control. But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like file://F:/Repositories It gives an error Repository is not available unable to open an ra_local session to URL Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to the server. I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked in, the rest refuse. Has anyone run into / solved this problem? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 15:04:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:04:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 16:35:38 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:35:38 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it just seems to work :-) Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches with shared projects every time. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 18:57:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:57:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 19:11:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:11:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D57@ddi-01.DDI.local> Not yet, I may be starting a new SQL based project soon so I'll give it a go then. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/11/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 07:34:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Message-ID: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. First of all, it ain't fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or clean install over it. Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding smoothly. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 07:42:30 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:42:30 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 10:26:17 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:26:17 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:15:37 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 11:36:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that > was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access > etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and > 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not > work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >> back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:58:41 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:58:41 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6B1635AA335E48D6A28B41F5D6443CDA@Server> If you, for example, download DNN from here :http://www.microsoft.com/web/gallery/Default.aspx You get tons of tools with it incl SQL Server 2008 etc but no management stuff. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:36 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and > that was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, > access etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both > 2008 and 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will > not work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server >> awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server >> Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:10:50 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003111110i6a9a3d2fi896b06b0ad72682e@mail.gmail.com> What issues are you seeing? I deal with .Net 2005/SQLCE3.0 and .Net2008/SQLCE3.5 and the two aren't compatible with each other. .Net2008 wont read a SQLCE3.0 database and vice versa. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:36 AM, jwcolby wrote: > 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. ?And I too ran around in circles looking for an express > edition of 2008. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: >> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? >> >> I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that >> was incompatible... >> >> No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the >> management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access >> etc, that sort of thing. >> >> Max >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and >> 2005. >> >> Charlotte Foust >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not >> work in 2008. >> >> Not absolutely sure about that, but... >> >> max >> >> >> On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> Well THAT was a PITA. ?I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >>> back. ?Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >>> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >>> ?So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev >> laptop. >>> ?First of all, it ain't >>> fast. ?Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. ?In >>> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >>> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >>> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >>> clean install over it. >>> >>> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >>> smoothly. >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:32:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen Message-ID: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:35:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:35:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Never mind John, As least your c# is coming on a-pace. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:42:24 2010 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:42:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is awesome. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:51:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and > writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, > mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup > was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of > my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back > out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do > that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using > the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that > working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files > in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to > begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a > largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right > service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one > last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a > query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have > restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:53:41 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B995855.60105@colbyconsulting.com> With 2008 developer edition, backup compression is built-in so I don't really need anything any more. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 14:56:00 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:48:25 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:48:25 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com><5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: Thanks Charlotte, Why didn't MS say that on their forum!! They have "experts" posting there telling people to use the 2005 tools. If you want to know anything, come to AccessD. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:56 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:51:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:51:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com><2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I am going to learn PowerBasic next. Once I have finished the Blat Form program (and that is nearly there) I want to put it into an .exe and from what I read on the PB site, it should be pretty straight forward with their Forms module. I did Quick Basic (Qbasic) some years back and that was very powerful without a too steep learning curve. C# is OTT for my needs. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) > and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my > databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free > backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get > all of my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them > back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# > code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able > to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the > Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have > that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of > reading the files in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor > to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I > discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the > right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the > services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset > of file names in a query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will > have restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 16:54:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:54:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: <4B9AC643.2060203@colbyconsulting.com> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 22:51:00 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:51:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# inheritance - first foray Message-ID: <4B9B19B4.204@colbyconsulting.com> Tonight I made my first foray into doing my own base class and inheriting that, as opposed to inheriting a base class from the framework, which I have done many times. I had designed a class which implemented my stored procedure widget. Basically the what and why was that I wanted to absolutely standardize the names and data types of a set of parameters that I pass to my stored procedures in SQL Server. I developed a fair number of SPs over a couple of years. I didn't check back (for naming conventions) to previous SPs as I developed the next so I ended up with the "same" variable named many different things. @FieldName and @FldName, @TableName and @tblName etc. Once I started trying to drive them from C# is became a PITA because the name passed in from C# must exactly match the name in the SP definition line. Thus I started defining a standard out in my C# code and rebuilding the SPs as I encountered errors trying to run the SPs. Code like: public void paramDBName(string lstrDBName) { sCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter( "@DBName", SqlDbType.VarChar, 50)); sCmd.Parameters["@DBName"].Value = lstrDBName; } and public void paramErrorDesc() { base.pCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter("@ErrorDesc", System.Data.SqlDbType.VarChar, 4000)); base.pCmd.Parameters["@ErrorDesc"].Direction = System.Data.ParameterDirection.Output; } This effectively "hard codes" the parameter name, but allows easy passing of the value going into that parameter, or defining the direction if it is a value coming back. I have about 20 of these parameters. So fine I did that. Then I defined the command object, initialization code, variables to allow me to capture the time required to execute the SP, code to log the fact that the sp executed etc. This worked great for my "generic" SPs. Except that I eventually wanted to define some specific parameters for stored procedures used for purposed processes, such as backup / restore. But I still wanted the code surrounding the command object to be standard. So tonight I started carving that "class header" kind of stuff out into a base class, and inheriting that in the child classes. It is interesting what you have to go through to make it happen. I seem to have the main class that I carved apart working, now I have to go into the other classes and carve out the header stuff and have them inherit the base class. It is also interesting working with projects within a solution. The main clsStoredProcedure is out in its own project under the solution and has to be added under references etc. Learning C# has been a journey, and I haven't gotten all that far along the road. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 02:59:26 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:59:26 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 05:48:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:48:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9B7B79.4040205@colbyconsulting.com> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 08:40:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:40:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John So now you are a lucky man! Red indicates conflicts or errors. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 09:59:52 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9BB678.1040503@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 10:07:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:07:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:39 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:16:39 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > > >Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 11:25:03 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:25:03 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi David Yes, it will bring up the two files showing the parts where they differ and let you pick and choose which parts to keep. /gustav >>> davidmcafee at gmail.com 13-03-2010 17:16 >>> If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Sat Mar 13 11:53:48 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:53:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> "if you are a little confused" ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gustav Brock" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM To: Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > Hi John > > Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > may happen if you are a little confused. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > > I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different > machines, and so far it is just me. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >> assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 12:09:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working copy on my laptop. If anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the server to get a fresh copy. I have wanted to do this for a long time. The obvious next question is... Access? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com William Hindman wrote: > "if you are a little confused" > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gustav Brock" > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > >> Hi John >> >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation >> may happen if you are a little confused. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? >> >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different >> machines, and so far it is just me. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> So now you are a lucky man! >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >>> assume. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> >>> >>> Gustav Brock wrote: >>>> Hi John >>>> >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>>> >>>> /gustav >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 08:35:03 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:35:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 09:00:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:00:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 10:18:21 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. Careful, there, John. GRrrrr Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 10:49:39 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:49:39 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9E5713.7090808@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: >> filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > Careful, there, John. GRrrrr > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. > > "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by > the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Dan Waters wrote: >> http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx >> >> This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality >> differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. >> For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the >> preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's >> easier to read. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 15 15:06:43 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:06:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Mon Mar 15 15:52:10 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:52:10 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 16:00:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:00:35 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <288F1A0CAAB44D76BC2A5F8F8B418314@Server> Perhaps, if (and only if) they had dropped the stupid curly brances which is not "normal" in a language no matter what the origin. If the structure of functions and commands did not have meaningless clutter. Unnecessary and unwanted and serve no purpose other than obfuscation. 2p Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Mon Mar 15 16:51:08 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 15 17:13:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:13:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: , <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:25:47 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Mon Mar 15 17:40:24 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:40:24 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:49:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list Message-ID: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a list of zips. I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, this would narrow things down pretty well. So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. Does that make sense. OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't know where to find that, though I will Google more. Anyway... I ran out and found C# code to perform that calculation. It would be NICE to do this in TSQL in a query right inside of SQL Server. I found code for both. Ain't the internet GRAND? The C# code: // Calculate Distance in Milesdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625); // Calculate Distance in Kilometersdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers); //GeoCodeCalc C# Class: public static class GeoCodeCalc{ public const double EarthRadiusInMiles = 3956.0; public const double EarthRadiusInKilometers = 6367.0; public static double ToRadian(double val) { return val * (Math.PI / 180); } public static double DiffRadian(double val1, double val2) { return ToRadian(val2) - ToRadian(val1); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. Defaults to using Miles. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2) { return CalcDistance(lat1, lng1, lat2, lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Miles); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement m) { double radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInMiles; if (m == GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers) { radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInKilometers; } return radius * 2 * Math.Asin( Math.Min(1, Math.Sqrt( ( Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lat1, lat2)) / 2.0), 2.0) + Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat1)) * Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat2)) * Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lng1, lng2)) / 2.0), 2.0) ) ) ) ); } } public enum GeoCodeCalcMeasurement : int { Miles = 0, Kilometers = 1 } The TSQL code: Create Function [dbo].[fnGetDistance] ( @Lat1 Float(18), @Long1 Float(18), @Lat2 Float(18), @Long2 Float(18), @ReturnType VarChar(10) ) Returns Float(18) AS Begin Declare @R Float(8); Declare @dLat Float(18); Declare @dLon Float(18); Declare @a Float(18); Declare @c Float(18); Declare @d Float(18); Set @R = Case @ReturnType When 'Miles' Then 3956.55 When 'Kilometers' Then 6367.45 When 'Feet' Then 20890584 When 'Meters' Then 6367450 Else 20890584 -- Default feet (Garmin rel elev) End Set @dLat = Radians(@lat2 - @lat1); Set @dLon = Radians(@long2 - @long1); Set @a = Sin(@dLat / 2) * Sin(@dLat / 2) + Cos(Radians(@lat1)) * Cos(Radians(@lat2)) * Sin(@dLon / 2) * Sin(@dLon / 2); Set @c = 2 * Asin(Min(Sqrt(@a))); Set @d = @R * @c; Return @d; End -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:50:17 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:50:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: "over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework." jc ...exactly ...as I said earlier in this thread, the ONLY reasons I'm investing time in C# are: 1: Potential employers give far more respect to C# than they do to VB/VBA ...like it or not, its true 2: There is one HELL of a lot more sample code for .net in C# than there is in VB ...again, like it or not, its true William -------------------------------------------------- From: "jwcolby" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next > line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# > really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two > >different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case > insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't > LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and > the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if > you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" > is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a > doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT > easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you > are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more > keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to > mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier > and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and > whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to > become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW > the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB > syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and > other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the >> person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI >> Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >> the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic >> or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, >> dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:53:34 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:53:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 18:12:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9EBED9.1070200@colbyconsulting.com> I am just explaining what the ; does. It is not valid nor invalid, just the facts ma'm. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 18:44:59 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:44:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 19:03:53 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:03:53 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. ?I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. ?It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 19:37:51 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:37:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 20:01:13 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:01:13 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9ED859.6050204@colbyconsulting.com> Likewise, ATM. However unlike you I am still young enough that I probably will eventually. It is best for me to prepare. In the end C# has not been so bad. Yes, VB would have been easier but not enough so to lose potential clients (or sleep) over. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. > > C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. > > I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" > something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. > > I need to stop thinking that way. > > It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of > using the GUI. > > I'm so glad I finally did! > > D > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 21:53:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:53:00 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:37:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:37:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:48:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:48:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:21:34 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:21:34 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:23:44 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:23:44 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 16 03:55:39 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:55:39 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 05:17:12 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:17:12 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But I do Gustav, When I am writing a financial proposal I put it in financial terms using standard terminology and laid out in a specific way. When I am writing a medical case for funding I put it in medical terminology and laid out in a specific way. etc etc But in all cases, I am using plain language, not interspersed with unnecessary hieroglyphics which are only there because the people who wrote the particular compilers for that language wished it to be so, not because it is necessary- you have only to look at other languages written for other compilers to know that is so. Take Stuart's PB. That is an excellent example of easy to read, high level code which compiles down to executable code - no P code etc. The reason I, and many other people, use Access is because of the RAD that it comes with. Thanks for the F# link, that is very interesting. max On 16 March 2010 08:55, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Max > > > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and > write. > > But to you F# must smell like honey: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) > > /gustav > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 06:04:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:04:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Message-ID: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. You might try to use netCOBOL: http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview Thank you. --Shamil P.S. <<< why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? >>> Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan <<< skip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:21:01 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:21:01 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Horses for Courses, Shamil > > None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are > "good" > things. > > 1. Case should be indifferent. > 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in > programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus > reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal > indentation serves the same purposes. > 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the > same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the > wrong > result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can > understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end > of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by > convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a > different matter entirely. > > Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and > verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity. > > When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from > masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Max -- > > Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally > approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the > following declarations: > > 1) string _temp; > 2) string temp; > 3) string Temp; > > are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - > they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good > programmers' > hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull > using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages > do... > > "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but > by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can > easily get similar > kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good > (unit) testing... > > "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" > as > I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', > methods', ... code lines... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Except for one thing Jim, > > Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is > diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in > logic and in implementation. > > Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it > was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting > somewhere over norther Nebraska. > > Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure > text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". > KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). > > > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so > what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who > cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are > always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does > a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who > cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > <<< skip >>> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:54:03 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:54:03 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 06:59:01 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:59:01 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Of the top of my head: Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator I degree at equator = 69.172 5 / 69.172 = .07228 So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > list of zips. > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > Does that make sense. > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > know where to find that, though I will Google more. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:01:55 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:01:55 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > <<< snip >>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:16:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:16:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000401cac502$91e8a5b0$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) <<< Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs >>> Niklaus Wirth's book (http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/books/AlgorithmE0/) was one of my first books on generic principles of programming together with Knuth's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming But that was 20th century, and we're in 21st one now. And nowadays "slogan" is "Objects + Messages = Programs" call it OOP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming) or not - it's rather different approach to Niklaus Wirth's classics... I could be missing something but IMO modern projects having hundreds of thousands/millions of code lines can't be developed and supported economically effective way by using 20-ieth century ideas... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:20:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:20:38 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 07:40:35 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:40:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Public Dan Response() If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. Fortunately, I can write code without them. End Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 07:44:53 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:44:53 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 07:47:35 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:47:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com>, <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4B9F7DE7.23980.10B22AFD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> That's what you get for "off the top of the head" :-( It should be: LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- .07228 / cosine(LatY) -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 21:59, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Of the top of my head: > > Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator > I degree at equator = 69.172 > 5 / 69.172 = .07228 > > So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY > if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 > > -- > Stuart > > > On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > > > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > > list of zips. > > > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > > Does that make sense. > > > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > > know where to find that, though I will Google more. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:57:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F8057.9030908@colbyconsulting.com> > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. No you wouldn't. The parens are often inserted INTENTIONALLY to make the equation more readable, even though it is often quite possible to cause the thing to work without them, and the math professor TEACHES US to use them to make the equation more readable and to ENSURE that it does what you intend. > Fortunately, I can write code without them. No, you can't! You use: If () then Begin end Else begin end While () begin end With() begin end Those Begin / End keywords are nothing more that parenthesis. Long, wordy, verbose parenthesis but parenthesis none the less. The parenthesis group the code into blocks that execute together. Use begin / end or {}, makes no difference to me but you are doing the exact same thing regardless. The language designer did NOT include them because they are unnecessary. (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end I LIKE a lot of things about VB but Begin / END is NOT one of them. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Public Dan Response() > > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using > parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. > > Fortunately, I can write code without them. > > End Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing > about using parenthesis to > group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we > have people bitching and > moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! > > ;) > > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > Who in their right minds would WANT > > begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end > > Which is the more readable? > > In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want > to have to take the time > and effort to learn a new way. > > I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and > breath to continue this > conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants > to do the same? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 08:01:32 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, max your arguments are specious. Begin VBA DOES USE THEM End John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and > oranges. > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > Max > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:12:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:12:00 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 08:39:47 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong since the last list rumble :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > ROTL > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > Live with it. > > Max > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. >> >> Begin >> VBA DOES USE THEM >> End >> >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Max Wanadoo wrote: >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with >> > coding....apples >> and >> > oranges. >> > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct >> > calculations >> but >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in >> > every >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU >> and >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. >> > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and >> pretend >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some >> curly >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white >> > space >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe >> Public >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" >> > >> > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. >> When I >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is >> > it >> how >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I >> can >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. >> > What >> is >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it >> > is >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic >> > and >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and >> some >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the >> other, >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. >> > >> > Max >> > _______________________________________________ >> > dba-VB mailing list >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:46:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> References: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Oh God, you joining in. Trouble at mill! Max On 16 March 2010 13:39, William Hindman wrote: > ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong > since the last list rumble :) > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM > To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > > ROTL > > > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > > > Live with it. > > > > Max > > > > > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > > > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. > >> > >> Begin > >> VBA DOES USE THEM > >> End > >> > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com < > http://www.colbyconsulting.com/> > >> > >> > >> Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with > >> > coding....apples > >> and > >> > oranges. > >> > > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct > >> > calculations > >> but > >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in > >> > every > >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > >> and > >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > >> > > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > >> pretend > >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > >> curly > >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white > >> > space > >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > >> Public > >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > >> > > >> > > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > >> When I > >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is > >> > it > >> how > >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > >> can > >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. > >> > What > >> is > >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it > >> > is > >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues > doesn't > >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic > >> > and > >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > >> some > >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > >> other, > >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > >> > > >> > Max > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > dba-VB mailing list > >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 09:59:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:59:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Message-ID: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:16:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:16:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle with your statements of learning curves. However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except when it sees an underscore before it. Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Mar 16 10:17:19 2010 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:17:19 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: <201003161454.o2GErls12123@smarthost.yourcomms.net> Yes, good practice and keeps code easier to find/manage e.g Form Load Events Control Events Data Accces Helper Misc It does take a little time, but when I do it I realise the benefit. Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: 16 March 2010 15:00 To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why not visit our website www.bury.gov.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our information security policy. The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it is for the intended recipient(s) alone. 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Electronic service accepted only at legalservices at bury.gov.uk and on fax number 0161 253 5119 . ************************************************************* From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:31:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 10:35:15 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:35:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't > have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle > with your statements of learning curves. > > However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the > end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a > line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no > way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. > Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long > SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will > break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I > almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly > that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except > when it sees an underscore before it. > > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of > the ;, just find it annoying. > > Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:34:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:34:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Wrong, JC. I bitched about complex math formulas sprinkled with parens and curly brackets and braces too. I used them, but they didn't make me happy. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:37:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:37:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: One of the things I love about .Net. When you're trying to track something down in code, it's much simpler to find the region first and dig around in there, plus it's nice to be able to collapse regions you aren't using so you don't have to look at so much code. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:41:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:02:01 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank goodness I'm in an IT department. I've always avoided those nasty developer/IT problems at work. Though on some of my side jobs, I've had to listen to other IT department 'demands'. I always just found them to be funny, sad, but funny. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 11:05:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:05:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:51:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:52:26 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:52:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:02:00 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually Gustav, you DO build system logic the way you speak and right. That's the entire purpose of a 'plain language coding method'. When you are given a task, you aren't told: 001101101001000110010100111000011010100100110111000110101011100001101100 10101010 If you are, you need to either put down the pipe, or move back to Earth...... Instead, you are told: When an Order's Total Value is less than $150, then we need to charge 15% shipping and handling, instead of 10%. In VB 6 (sorry, I know I'm behind on the VB curve...), that would be this, in the 'Order' Class: Property Get ShippingAndHandlingFee() As Currency If Me.TotalValue<$150 Then ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .15 Else ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .10 End If End Property Now, because of the 'plain language' ability of VB, anyone with a general understanding of Visual Basic would know immediately what is going on. More importantly, someone without even a hint of VB skill, could see that in the 'Order' Class, the Shipping and Handling 'Property' is 10% for orders 150 and up, and 15% for below 150. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:56 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 12:10:37 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm Message-ID: I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:18:49 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:18:49 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mean the toolbox? It's only available when you have an object open in design view. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:11 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:25:39 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:25:39 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:26:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:26:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> True Drew! Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom in agreement with many of the Listers. At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those are "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that a language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent and machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that meets those objectives. If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage in a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not talking about specialist language but general mainstream ones). To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with a cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:30:33 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:30:33 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <030F5799F4244C629648CABD8DA6103B@Server> >Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName An example of Pennsylvanian dutch spelling perhaps? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice. I know that you would not take offence. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:26 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:41:38 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:41:38 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:43:56 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:43:56 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:51:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:51:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok Max, that is just getting a little snitty..... Using ; to execute a line, or _ to extend a line.... two sides of the same fence. Using Function, End function, or { }, again, two sides of the same fence. Now, there may be reasons why one side is better than the other. There are definitely reasons why personal taste, or situations would favor one side or the other, but to just sit on one side and say 'Your side is full of posers and intellectual snobs'....... that just goes against the 'code'... the nerd code. Now place your pocket protector on the ground, and stand back five feet. Take deep breathes and calm down. Are you ready to play with the other children now? Oops, should that be { {;} } Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:45 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:52:40 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:52:40 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> Message-ID: <003e01cac531$7a347cd0$6a01a8c0@nant> Nope, Max, good modern C# code's methods/properties/... have just a few code lines, with a few leading spaces for indentation... One can also use #region statement to hide parts of large classes (if any)... IOW, no need at all to "scroll 2 miles" up and down or left to right - and I'd also note that modern programmers do use Class Diagrams/Class View when coding - no need to scroll source code lines at all... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:55:16 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:55:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:26 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:20 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:59:33 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:59:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I must admit that curly brackets affect me much as the Paradox script that used If..Then blocks with no End If. Harder than hell to figure out where one ended. With curly brackets littering the landscape and representing stuff that only C# family programmers may be able to interpret at a glance, I can't be bothered unless I really need to translate an example into equivalent VB. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:01:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:01:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ooops, I meant 'at the end of each line for execution'. I realize that ; is basically saying 'execute', which is what a CRLF in VB is doing too. In fact, you can also put multiple 'executable' lines in a single line. (At least you can in other languages that use ;, like Javascript). Though I do agree that syntax is to the language like women are to sex. They're quirky, confusing, and will smack you down for the slightest goof, but really, it's no fun without them..... My question is something Max asked. What is the real reason to change then? You've listed two that I understand (though I'm not really in that world right now), available of learning resources, and client requests. Anything else? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:35 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:58:58 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life blood of learning. I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 13:05:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:05:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:29:44 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 13:40:24 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:44:43 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:44:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok, agree, agree, agree, huh? I never said that it shouldn't have a syntax. I said that I don't see how one method is easier, or clearer then another. (Admittedly, I'm really comparing C to VB, not C# to VB.Net.....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:06 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 13:54:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:54:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 14:21:27 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:21:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Message-ID: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:52:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Anagnorisis? What's with the archaic words? I guess it's fitting in the defense of an archaic language... LOL Sorry, that was below the belt! BRIEF is only better sometimes....and really C isn't all that brief. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 14:54:26 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:56:52 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:56:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:57:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:57:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Aha, thanks. I seem to remember that in my brief foray, years ago, into VB.Net. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:59:28 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:59:28 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Aha.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:42 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:42 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:58 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: That might be dead on.... then again, I enjoy fiddling with my cars...the one I have now is the first I haven't fiddled with, and I've had it for months.... Guy thing, maybe? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:05:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:12:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:12:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 15:13:07 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:13:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:24:47 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:24:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> Message-ID: There's a neutral on all automatics, can coast with those too, people just don't, but I think this is getting a little off topic then we already were! LOL Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:41:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:41:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 15:48:10 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...apparently lots of improvements in VS2010 :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Waters" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:00 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM > To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > >> >> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... >> >> Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. >> >> I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol >> days >> that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing >> out >> thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the >> examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on >> earth >> would I want to go back to that?..." >> >> Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the >> part >> of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of >> code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. >> >> The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the >> non-compilation >> and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. >> >> I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the >> supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is >> a >> "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on >> that >> back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly >> reason >> why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net >> route >> with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he >> stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. >> Most >> programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and >> code >> examples are the life blood of learning. >> >> I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. >> >> >> Max >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Drew -- >> >> OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's >> good >> enough for me. >> >> Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil {^;^} >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, >> relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" >> >> The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. >> >> Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an >> End >> Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End >> Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now >> I'm >> looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, >> another >> {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that >> 3 >> or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers >> 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is >> indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End >> Function'? >> >> Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus >> it's >> the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for >> you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me >> a >> clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the >> end >> of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a >> procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? >> >> Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again >> did } >> just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down >> to >> get too? >> >> Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell >> me, >> 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know >> when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is >> missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting >> told, >> hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the >> language >> is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less >> ambiguous >> to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. >> >> Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! >> >> ;) >> >> Drew >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> OK, Max :) >> >> Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do >> enhance >> code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as >> brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - >> '{' >> and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable >> (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and >> code >> blocks will become ambiguous... >> >> Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just >> IMO) >> using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise >> and >> as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... >> >> And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) >> substitutes: >> >> - Namespace ... End Namespace >> - Module ... End Module >> - Class ... End Class >> - Sub ... End Sub >> - Function ... End Function >> - For ... Next >> - While ... End While >> - If .... Then ... End If >> - ... >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> -- >> Shamil {^;^} >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:52:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 16:06:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Message-ID: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 16:27:58 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <0C730E13A7E44B34BCBD09EC29FB4D20@jislaptopdev> ...nice find William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Shamil Salakhetdinov" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:06 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... > > Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more > often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just > found it)?: > > http://langpop.com/ > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company > like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. > > I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and > new > programmers eventually become the only programmers. > > We'll see what happens! > > Thanks! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>>> > No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very > intensively > used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation > system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... > > Look at "MONO" sources... > > No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to > use C# as you're only starting with .NET... > > With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than > anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features > (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all > that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then > they > will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but > will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... > > I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB > programmers? > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > To Everyone! > > This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where > the > two languages have the same functionality. > > So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only > as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. > > MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can > switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of > Visual > Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. > > What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding > where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will > do > is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as > possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're > not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 > years C# is going to be deprecated. > > Thanks! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do > in > C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to > stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, > so > it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you > can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a > lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the > language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and > possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for > "professional" > programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed > Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# > and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is > destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) > > LOL. > > I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't > using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, > and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you > didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be > completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. > > But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually > coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this > specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of > 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, > and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to > their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds > and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even > relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost > impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without > picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) > > So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' > grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little > more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In > the examples: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Can be written as... > class SomeClass > { > public int SomeField { Get; } > } > > 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: > > Public SomeField as Integer > > No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a > simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) > * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make > anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the > function. > > Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. > > If Something Then > Do Something > Else > Do SomethingElse > End if > > Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. > > Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be > actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense > within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is > the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is > there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that > others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally > nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't > program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB > 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would > like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world > at all, right now!) > > Drew > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:07:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:07:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <30BCC27727E54DA082A8ABDB6BD89733@Server> > f course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) Oh dear, you sound like my (ex) wife(s). Always seeing fault where non-exists... Max Ps - I am definitely with you on Automatics. It is particulary relevant over here where traffic queues are everywhere. Where is the fun moving neutral-1st-neutral-1st-neutral-1st-woah-2nd-back to 1st. Let the auto gears take the strain. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:12:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:12:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <515E9ADEF83D4C7EB8EA1B64FD9BA930@Server> >I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing Neither am I. This is correct Drew (snuggling up again)... I just thing that they are so unnecessary and clutter the screen when what I was to see if the code, not pretty curlers. I have seen programmers put Tabs chars of 4 or even 6 so the code can indent. Huh, 2 is quite sufficient thank you and 1 will do. I can see an indent without being smacking in the face with it. Horses for courses. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:14:54 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:14:54 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server><7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Indeed and very similar. On the way, I went the Foxbase and Foxpro route when I moved from Ashton Tate and then, when MS acquired Fox, I moved to Access with its much aclaimed Rushmore Jet technology. Fluffery is spot on. What it compiles down to is what matters. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:20:31 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:20:31 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <11F3C72A8FDA40BFAF6F13D1C0CB853C@Server> I am with you William. For me, the biggest help in coding is the Indenter which keeps all my ducks lined up and I can see quickly when my END is missing. Sometimes, I am really good, I put the For and Next in before the stuff in the middle. Doesn't happen too often as I am not that disciplined but the Indenter sorts it for me. I would love to be able to collapse and expand code based on For/Next/While/Wend etc. That would be neat. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on > spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I > looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and > say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the > part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the > borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation > of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it > is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I > started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There > is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in > preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one > put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was > MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples > of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life > blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, > clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see > an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking > for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a > {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a > { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and > oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. > Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify > that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really > less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this > term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how > does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells > me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I > just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just > ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again > did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've > scrolled down to get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will > tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a > }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting > told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack > sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH > easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate > relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, > then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do > enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, > accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic > (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO > just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise > and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:23:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <1A4874BDA8BD43359C6CE6227DCB6F25@Server> This is so true, I am working with Serif Webplus X4 which is really, really cool. CMS (content management systems) the lot. Forums, Facebook, all that sort of stuff all there for you at a few clicks if you want it. We are moving into a new realm. The whole shebang about ?40. Once again, spot on Drew (snuggle) Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 17:27:13 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:34:14 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:34:14 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 17:47:43 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:47:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <261B9616BB3D4282BA18D8434BB3364A@danwaters> I see a slightly higher usage rate for C# over Visual Basic. Remember though, all that data is now invalid because that was based on when the two languages had different features. With that in mind, you would expect one of them to be more preferred than the other. But with VS 2010, it's a new game. Neither language does more or less than the other. And that's the basis of all my comments today. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:07 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:25:38 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:25:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:26:07 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:26:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Gone in 2003 forward. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 20:56:18 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:56:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...slaps head, grits teeth, sighs ...thanks for telling me ...now :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlotte Foust" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but > again, it was years ago. > > I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as > much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples > I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for > what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API > calls from other languages and using them in VB. > > As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are > difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, > and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about > it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I > think. So that's simply a personal preference. > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William > Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process > it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I > stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and > then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I > know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its > any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have > to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 21:12:33 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:12:33 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , Message-ID: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 21:57:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:57:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA04505.8060009@colbyconsulting.com> Why, isn't that Begin Grin g End Grin ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:37:36 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: No, Stuart I did mean CLI (Common Language Infrastructure). You might also find the following link interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI_languages Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:51:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:51:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <509DF0D44A54489EAE5BB149BBA95966@creativesystemdesigns.com> I have been caught many times with such simple errors and that is just with VB/VBA. On the other hand with the syntax checker in the frame work of your choice, can catch most anything. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:57:42 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:57:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <4B9BC100C678430391C44118001307EA@creativesystemdesigns.com> You are making me laugh... Max. I never thought I would find programming so humorous. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 17 00:40:10 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:10 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I programmed for a number of years in the best programming language I have ever seen. It had the tightest code with the smallest number of Operands. It compiled code into very small fast executables. When you finished a code group you just put down a period... now that is simple. The language was called Clarion and I am sure few have heard of it but I wrote a number of excellent applications with the product. I have not used it for many years and doubt whether it even exists now. Times move on... all languages fade and disappear but there are always new great languages coming along. (Except C which is such a dumb language that it does not even check its variable types... if you hear of a stack-overflow rest assured someone has been programming in C again.) I think the .Net frame work is great because it has so many flavours. If you get bored with one flavour just pick another. I have a friend who is raving about Eiffel.Net?? (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms973898.aspx) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:34:19 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:34:19 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:39:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:39:47 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:53:09 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:53:09 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002901cac59e$82660870$6a01a8c0@nant> Forgot to post the link on MS Singularity OS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_%28operating_system%29 --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 02:55:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:55:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] The Last One In-Reply-To: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <16FA5A36341A432994174DEF2C5A5710@Server> Thank you so much for that link, Shamil. I can remember reading and following this saga as it unravelled in my life time courtesy of PCW which was required reading for me in those days. Oh, happy memories. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 03:55:27 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:55:27 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Me Too Arthur, I also spent time (1-2 days) a year or two ago automating and shipping backups to another server, Since I started using RedGate Backup, I just love it. But I love RedGate SQL Prompt even more. Having said that, I could not currently work without Redgate Compare and Redgate Data Compare. They have saved me days and days of time. Mark On 11 March 2010 20:42, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 04:01:18 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:01:18 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark On 13 March 2010 18:09, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. > > I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working > copy on my laptop. If > anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the > server to get a fresh copy. > I have wanted to do this for a long time. > > The obvious next question is... Access? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > William Hindman wrote: > > "if you are a little confused" > > > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > > > William > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Gustav Brock" > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > > To: > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > > > >> Hi John > >> > >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > >> may happen if you are a little confused. > >> > >> /gustav > >> > >> > >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >> > >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two > different > >> machines, and so far it is just me. > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >> > >> > >> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>> Hi John > >>> > >>> So now you are a lucky man! > >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. > >>> > >>> /gustav > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I > >>> assume. > >>> > >>> John W. Colby > >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>>> Hi John > >>>> > >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. > >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > >>>> > >>>> /gustav > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 04:21:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:21:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-studio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 08:52:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:52:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:28:04 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:28:04 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one ways to do this. But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in subject. 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a specified Top Level Folder. 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment and work on it. 5. The application will then email the results back to him. Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and then do the same without the excel s/sheet. Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the rule. Many ways Now tell me you don't use outlook!! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 09:34:21 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:21 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001201cac5de$f0584a10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I suppose you can make a Web Service with two methods: - first one to upload a spreadsheet with zips, and start your "machination" running as a Windows Service; - second one to query for results; Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 09:49:19 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:49:19 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Wed Mar 17 09:57:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice link! I liked this line: "In the same manner, we will experience dramatic progress over the coming decades, but it won't feel as dramatic while we are actually experiencing it." The old frog in boiling water scenario. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 09:59:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:59:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> Message-ID: <4BA0EE46.3030107@colbyconsulting.com> Max, Actually I don't use outlook, though I know how to automate it in VBA (Access). But I am doing this in C# or .Net. Thanks for the suggestion. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. > > My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one > ways to do this. > > But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: > > 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in > subject. > 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a > specified Top Level Folder. > 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. > 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment > and work on it. > 5. The application will then email the results back to him. > > Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and > then do the same without the excel s/sheet. > > Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the > rule. > > Many ways > > Now tell me you don't use outlook!! > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM > To: VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific > client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." > kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex > process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to > do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how > would i go about doing something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new > "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. > I don't know how to build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but > hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a > machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL > Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. > Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year > or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the > loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, > log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do > a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the > loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my > time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:00:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:00:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:13:32 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:13:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:30:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F5A5.9030800@colbyconsulting.com> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:54 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL Charlotte -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:42:08 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA0F850.6050409@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. They are easy to lose, not as In Your Face as a ton of BEGIN / ENDs. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL > > Charlotte > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:43:36 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:36 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:49:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F9FC.1020809@colbyconsulting.com> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> > I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the > list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty > much just looking for something like: > > Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population > 56 127,435 437,329 > > Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list > across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to > potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: > > 1) Create a working directory using the order number > 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory > 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) > 4) Import the data into that order database > 5) Run the queries and get the counts > 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. > > This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): > > 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. > 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers > > No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. > > I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. > > They would be THRILLED with this. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> Too bad. >> Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> >> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >>> >>> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dw-murphy at cox.net Wed Mar 17 11:48:04 2010 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:48:04 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: One way to do this is with web services. I have a client who wants to keep order data on a local access database, but also has a web order entry system that I built in ASP.NET. The ASP.NET site uses a SQL server database. I keep them in synch with web services. Works well. A more .NET type approach would be to use the entity framework and Windows Communcation Foundation. It looked really attractive for the project I mentioned but we originally started with a version of SQL Server that wasn't supported. Don't remember much about it except that it would have been easier to build. I don't understand the theory behind a lot of the .NET stuff but it does seem to work as advertised. Doug -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:53 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 11:51:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#DownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:20:48 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to transfer data. Web services are really easy. You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is almost as easy as a webpage. I can help you out with those if you need. You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. David McAfee On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... ?What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 12:20:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:20:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cac5f6$31b1c100$6a01a8c0@nant> Thank you, Gustav, Yes, John, making simple ASP.NET Web Services is an easy exercise, and as Gustav noted we have a sample of such a web service on nowthwind.codeplex.com... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:52 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#D ownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:54:38 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:54:38 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171054t3cf32a37t673d465051d605d2@mail.gmail.com> This is how I pull data from my SQLCE database and send it to my webservice: (You would be reading from a CSV file instead) private void moveInvHdrFromSdfToSQL() { localhost.Service1 MyObj = new localhost.Service1(); SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection CEconn; CEconn = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection(("Data Source =" + (PathPC + FileName))); CEconn.Open(); string strSQL = "SELECT ICNo,StoreNo,InvNo,InvDate,CustPoNo,ResaleFlag,CrMemoFlag,SelForPrtFlag FROM tblInvHdr"; SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter CEda = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter(strSQL, CEconn); DataSet ds = new DataSet(); CEda.Fill(ds, "InvHdr"); string RtnMsg = MyObj.InsertInvHdr(ds); if ((RtnMsg != "InvHdr data inserted")) { throw new Exception(RtnMsg); } CEda.Dispose(); CEconn.Close(); CEconn.Dispose(); } and this is the webservice being called: [WebMethod()] public string InsertInvHdr(string strInput, DataSet dsIn) { int errNum; string errMsg; SqlConnection myConnection; SqlCommand myCommand; DataRow row; try { myConnection = new SqlConnection("server=MyServerName;uid=MyLogin;pwd=MyPW;database=MyDataBaseName"); myConnection.Open(); myCommand = new SqlCommand(); myCommand.Connection = myConnection; foreach (row in dsIn.Tables[0].Rows) { myCommand.CommandText = ("EXEC stpInsertIntoInvHdr \'" + (row["ICNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["StoreNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvDate"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["CustPoNo"].ToString().Replace(''', "||") + ("\', " + (row["ResaleFlag"].ToString() + (", " + (row["CrMemoFlag"].ToString() + (", " + row["SelForPrtFlag"].ToString()))))))))))))))); myCommand.ExecuteNonQuery(); } return "InvHdr data inserted"; myConnection.Close(); } catch (Exception ex) { errNum = Err.Number; errMsg = ex.Message; return ("SQL/WS Error: WS.InsertInvHdr - " + (errNum + (":" + errMsg))); } } And this is the Stored procedure: (I've simplified it a bit, just to save time) CREATE PROCEDURE stpInsertIntoInvHdr( @ICnum AS VARCHAR(10), @StoreNo AS VARCHAR(16), @InvNo AS VARCHAR (8), @InvDate AS VARCHAR(22), @CustPoNo AS VARCHAR (20), @ResaleFlag AS INT, @CrMemoFlag AS INT, @SelForPrtFlag AS INT) AS INSERT INTO InvHdr (ICNo, StoreNo, InvNo, InvDate, CustPoNo, ResaleFlag, CrMemoFlag, SelForPrtFlag) VALUES (@ICnum, @StoreNo, @InvNo, @InvDate, @CustPoNo, @ResaleFlag, at CrMemoFlag, at SelForPrtFlag) This is using a SQL 2000 database, if you are using SQL Server 2008, you don't have to insert line by line and can actually do a bulk insert, which is even easier. David On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David McAfee wrote: > John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to > transfer data. > > Web services are really easy. > > You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is > almost as easy as a webpage. > > I can help you out with those if you need. > > You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. > > David McAfee > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with >> me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a >> moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do >> is to make it a process that they can do themselves. >> >> My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing >> something like this. >> >> 1) The client is in NY. >> 2) The data is in my server in NC >> 3) The server is Windows 2003 >> 4) SQL Server 2008 >> 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# >> 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which >> essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. >> >> So... ?What are my options? >> >> 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to >> build a web app. >> 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my >> office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. >> 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. >> >> At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a >> directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to >> get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. >> >> I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or >> 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows >> them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time >> they do a count. >> >> Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a >> little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 17 18:08:36 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:08:36 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN References: Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> I'm using Tortoise. It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I didn't look into it. Cheers Michael M Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 06:33:00 From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 17 18:40:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:40:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> References: , <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 20:18:58 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:18:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA17F82.8040203@colbyconsulting.com> I am using VisualVSN integrated into VS2008. It is dead easy. It is also pretty cheap at $50 / seat. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > I'm using Tortoise. > It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. > > Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 > virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) > Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it > had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I > didn't look into it. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > Hi Mark > > I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu > dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh > > Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: > > http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ > > However, I haven't experimented with any of these. > > /gustav > > >>>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> > Just check the mdb in John. > > It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will > version control the mdb file. > > It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage > sizes nowadays anyway :o) > > it is very comforting to check files in and out. > > Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives > you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:15:30 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:15:30 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would second that thought of slowly moving to web based entry forms. It is sort of half way in between being sent all the data and then you having to manage it and sending the results back. By building a web form the data can be controlled or at least partially managed by the client and then you just have to manage the BE. I also use a combination of Hamachi VPN (a LogMeIn component) and Filezilla (a very secure FTP client and Server) to move large blocks of data back and forth. The free LogMeIn module does not have data transfer... Bigger clients either have and can use MS Remote Desktop Connection or Linux/Unix based clients have Citrix. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:49 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:21:11 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:21:11 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:29:55 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:29:55 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <022ABAA50D8C4690817E6CD2DAF92FD3@creativesystemdesigns.com> Stuart: ...Or FileZilla for example. Server version will set listener to any port ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:32:07 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:56:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:56:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A6F1FBE1E984015B4936A3A360DCA80@Server> Doug, I use FileZilla Server (free) and that maintains a list of banned IP addresses as well as a log showing who was trying to get in. Blocked Ips can be timed specific. Not sure about FileZilla Client, but may have the same. I log them and then check back on what names they were using to try to guess the password - quite funny some of them. There are others. New: Automatically block IP addresses after a specific number of failed login attempts. http://www.pablosoftwaresolutions.com/html/quick__n_easy_ftp_server.html http://software.informer.com/getfree-bullet-ftp-block-ip-address/ Do a google for "ftp block ip addresses" Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:32 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 14:22:10 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:22:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Thu Mar 18 14:33:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:33:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:36:48 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:36:48 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:55:17 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:55:17 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 19:31:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:31:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA2C5CB.7060703@colbyconsulting.com> You would think that the UK would be one place you could get him prosecuted. Of course that assumes that he really is in the UK. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Going OT but I gotta share :-) > I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. > We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. > Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account > and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! > Who would do that??? > I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's > hard to see his payment :-) > He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... > The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the > incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? > I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to > collect but decided it was too much effort. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute > force your PW. It keeps him > from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" > scams. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi Jim: >> >> I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data > from >> clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the > server >> screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying > to >> brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third > wrong >> guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break > in, but >> it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming >> ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which > can be >> all over the place. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence > wrote: >>> Hi Gustav: >>> >>> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so >>> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 22:47:35 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:47:35 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. It works very and I have never had any problems since. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 23:16:14 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:16:14 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003182116o5976ec7evfdc37d3ca19477b6@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jim. I'll definitely take your advice about port 21. Our passwords are pretty strong - as I said, there haven't been any successful attacks. I haven't tried a VPN. I was exaggerating slightly about China; lots of the hackers are in North America, so banning IP ranges would only be a partial solution. I did once try working through an ISP's abuse department, but ended up spending quite a bit of time only to discover that, basically, they didn't care and weren't going to do anything. Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. > > 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. > 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. > 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. > 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" > 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. > 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com > 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. > > It works very and I have never had any problems since. > HTH > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, > but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can > be > all over the place. > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 23:58:52 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: Micheal: This happens all the time with sites like Craig's list. There has happened so many time people scammed that banks will not even back cheques any more. Only deal with cash... Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 00:52:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:52:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Fri Mar 19 00:57:26 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:26 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/19/10 06:33:00 From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 01:41:37 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:37 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local><001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001c01cac72f$3a71b040$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, but in this his last issue he promises to publish something new, even better - and the subject tutorial is one of the best his works I suppose... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:57 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 09:10:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:10:13 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 11:42:38 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:38 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 11:52:52 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:52:52 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Gustav -- That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st udio-2008-together/ I must note I haven't used it yet. Thank you. --Shamii -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 19 12:26:24 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26494BC39BA443D9B01695E02869F25C@creativesystemdesigns.com> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:10 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 12:41:12 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:41:12 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FTP server (was: Goin' for the (browser based) gold) Message-ID: Hi Jim OK, I'll make a note on this. Sounds very nice. Just about the only feature I recall to have used is virtual folders which FTP of IIS handles well. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 19-03-2010 18:26 >>> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 13:11:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:11:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Outlook Macros In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223BF14B7E204BB7B60941E00BBF592D@Server> I have just written some code to move all accessList emails from all the initial folder into other folders based on the subject matter, creating a new folder as necessary. They are now grouped by subject instead of person (which I had before and that was impossible to follow threads). I can run that code from Access or from within Outlook by selecting Tools/Macro/Macros or Alt-F8 and then clicking Run. The Outlook Macro options do not appear to have any way to RECORD a Macro so that I can run it directly with a hot-key. IS this correct, because it sound strange when other office apps have this facility. I don't want to go via the macro menu if I can avoid it. Thanks Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 08:37:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart Message-ID: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time configuration". Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it configured VS for first time use. I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there and seems to be functioning. A little strange! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:19:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:19:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Call for development assistance Message-ID: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective advocates. First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ For my state the link is: http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a system for coordinating the graduates. What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web site. Sigh. So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people with a disability. Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: http://consumer-action.org/ This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. Thanks, -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:58:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for development assistance In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA8D708.2000901@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Susan! If it works, eventually this thing will be huge I think. In the meantime I am going to need SQL Server stuff, C# stuff and ASP.Net stuff. Lots for everyone to do I am sure. Not to mention brainstorming, high level planning, documentation and so much more. I would like to be able to do startup in time for my last session which will be in the November time frame. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Susan Harkins wrote: >> Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and >> let's make this thing happen. > > ======JC, count me in -- I have no experience in building web sites, but I'm > sure there's something I could do to help, and I'm not opposing to learning > new skills. > > Susan H. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 14:20:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:20:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for Development In-Reply-To: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> References: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> Message-ID: <4BA9147B.2040903@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Randy! I will do some organization stuff to allow us all to work together and then call a meeting. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Randy Sigmond wrote: > John, > > > > Count me in! > > > > I have experience in C#, ASP.NET & SQL Development. > > > > Randy Sigmond > > > > Ps - I can be found on LinkedIn.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From garykjos at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:37:50 2010 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart In-Reply-To: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Patch Tuesday maybe? GK On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time > configuration". ?Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it > configured VS for first time use. > > I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. > > Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. ?It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there > and seems to be functioning. > > A little strange! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:16:49 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> Message-ID: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:46:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up Message-ID: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes docked on that side and so forth. Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio Brain Farts). Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:59:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:59:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? From dwaters at usinternet.com Wed Mar 24 08:38:09 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:38:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the same: 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click Next 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 08:42:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Sometimes Microsoft really is good Message-ID: <4BAA16D5.8090605@colbyconsulting.com> I had an issue with Visual Studio, it decided that I was using it for the first time. BOO! I had to reconfigure how the panes dock. BOO! When I finished and tried to run, the application crashed. BOO! It reported the error. YEAAA! It told me I needed to download a hotfix. YEAAA! It took me directly to the page to get the hotfix! YEAAA! Which I did. Now, I have no idea whether this is going to actually fix it or not but it is in areas like this that I am impressed with Microsoft. Yea, bugs are a PITA, but we all have them. It is how we handle them that makes the difference and MS really handles that side of things well IMHO. To have a list of bugs, the specific patch that fixes it, the reporting that finds it, and the system to get it and install it is pretty cool. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 09:25:21 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:25:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA20D1.7050907@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Dan, that was it. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the > same: > > 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... > 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next > 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click > Next > 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish > > Good Luck, > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up > > OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the > middle it would dock on > the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing > new there) but I am at > least working. > > Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears > that maybe it didn't > set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the > project. Now F6 is ignored > and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it > immediately offers to build > a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells > VS which environment to > use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, > if I pinned them open >> they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at > the top, the next would >> be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me > to select the panes >> docked on that side and so forth. >> >> Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by > side, taking up just TONS >> of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that > got reset (see Visual Studio >> Brain Farts). >> >> Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mikedorism at verizon.net Wed Mar 24 16:12:19 2010 From: mikedorism at verizon.net (Doris Manning) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:12:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, If you could use another body, I'd be happy to throw my hat into the ring. I am familiar with SQL Server and C#. Looking to improve my web UI skills. Doris Manning Senior Developer/Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:17 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server; VBA Subject: Re: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 20:45:06 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:45:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 24 20:58:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:58:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos References: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582E33@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, I feel your pain :-) If you have a BindingSource for the combo you can apply a filter there. Heres my code for filtering a DataGridView. BS.Filter = "Archived = False And " + String.Format ( "ReceivedDate >= '{0:yyyy-MM-dd}'", DateTime.Today.AddMonths (-3 )); There is a remove filter method as well. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 25 March 2010 12:45 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/25/10 06:33:00 From Gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 25 05:38:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: Hi John You are doing it right and you will end up with three icons per source. If that bothers you, you will notice that the code for creating these are held in the designer code of the form. They can be moved to the code module if you like, and then the icons will not be present. Here is an example where a predefined dataset is used: public partial class FormMain : Form { public DataSetDL DlDataSet = new DataSetDL(); public FormMain() { InitializeComponent(); InitializeDataSet(); InitializeFolders(); } private void FillEmployerComboBox() { DataSetDL.DataTableEmployerDataTable dataTableEmployer = DlDataSet.DataTableEmployer; EmployerComboBox.SelectedItem = "Id"; EmployerComboBox.DisplayMember = "Organisation"; EmployerComboBox.DataSource = dataTableEmployer; } } InitializeDataSet fills the datasets from an XML file. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 25-03-2010 02:45 >>> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 07:29:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:29:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 08:29:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] One or more objects access this field Message-ID: <4BACB6AF.7090508@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to do a drop column from a sql statement and it failed with that error message. AFAICT I had no cursors etc open that displayed that field. I eventually went into design view of the table and manually deleted the column and that worked. Any ideas why something like this occurs? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 26 14:18:01 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:18:01 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I do use it here: http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 06:17:52 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:17:52 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:18:53 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:32:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:32:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE170C.10205@colbyconsulting.com> Mark, It is too expensive for me. I am currently using VisualSVN and it is "enough" for my simple needs, and at $50 / seat is cheap enough to actually afford and buy, though I haven't done so yet - still on the 30 day review. ATM I have just me and I am in the process of bringing in two or three students to learn and then assist me in my C# / SQL Server project, which is 1/2 of my business and income right now. I would switch to Mercurial if: I can make the switch. I can get transparent integration to VS2008. It is cheap / free. It provides recognizable benefits over VisualSVN. The bottom line is that what I have works, and it was dead simple to get working and to use. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Mark Breen wrote: > Hello All, > > I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. > It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. > > IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for > Mecurial - or did I not get it right? > > I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering > downloading and installing it here. > > What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could > set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not > really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. > > Thanks > > Mark > > > > > On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi John -- >> >> I do use it here: >> >> http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets >> >> But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >> >> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >>> Hi Gustav -- >>> >>> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >>> >>> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >>> >>> >> http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >>> udio-2008-together/ >>> >>> I must note I haven't used it yet. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> --Shamii >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock >>> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM >>> To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi Shamil and Michael >>> >>> But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic >> light" >>> sub-icons. >>> >>> Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all >> evil >>> to maintain. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> >>> Hi Shamil, >>> >>> Beat me to it..lol >>> Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial >>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html >>> >>> >>> Talk about timing :-) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >>> Salakhetdinov >>> Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM >>> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >>> Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged >> (:)) >>> if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be >> polite): >>> http://hginit.com/ >>> >>> I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago >>> (before I did find this article/tutorial). >>> >>> Enjoy! ;) >>> >>> -- >>> Shamil >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 10:04:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler Message-ID: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 14:22:26 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:22:26 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... All these tools are free. As I'm working with a Codeplex project (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis When working with student support team you'd probably not need any Mercurial servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with some training it should go smoothly): - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as many folders as the size of students' support team you have; - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; - ... - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's call it STDSET1; - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); - ... - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and overwrite cloned source folder for this student; - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's cloned repository; - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) to the main repository; - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - ... - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their changes to get MAINSET_vX; - ... - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as a default one; - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm "all ears".... Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve step. There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG to create Mercurial repository. If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with SVN. Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject tool. There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all ears"... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 14:52:11 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:52:11 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello John and Shamil, I too consider Kiln expensive and I feel I could manage the command line commands. if nothing else, using command line will ensure that I learn the tool. I was mentioning Kiln from the point of view that if Joel has launched an interface for it, he must consider it "One to Watch" for the future. I am like you, and work mostly alone, so I could continue to use SVN, but I think that Merurial might be worth learning so I am watching this space. thanks Mark On 27 March 2010 19:22, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. > > I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - > TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... > > All these tools are free. > > As I'm working with a Codeplex project > (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do > not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. > > As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers > but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi > r-on-iis > > When working with student support team you'd probably not need any > Mercurial > servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with > some training it should go smoothly): > > - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as > many > folders as the size of students' support team you have; > - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; > - ... > - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's > call it STDSET1; > - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send > changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); > - ... > - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and > overwrite cloned source folder for this student; > - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's > cloned repository; > - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); > - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default > => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) > to > the main repository; > - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from > student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - ... > - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their > changes to get MAINSET_vX; > - ... > - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; > - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as > a default one; > - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... > > See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ > > The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. > If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm > "all > ears".... > > Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched > above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source > control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve > step. > > There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm > formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... > > Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) > to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support > files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG > to > create Mercurial repository. > > If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with > SVN. > > Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject > tool. > There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss > > If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise > tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all > ears"... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Shamil, > > I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your > source control? If so do > you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / > inexpensively with Visual > studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into > Murcurial? Are you > available as a source for coaching us through the change? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi John -- > > > > I do use it here: > > > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > > > John W. Colby > > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi Gustav -- > >> > >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > >> > >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > >> > >> > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > >> udio-2008-together/ > >> > >> I must note I haven't used it yet. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> --Shamii > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 15:01:07 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:01:07 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant><4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000701cacde8$3e94db10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Mark -- As I noted in my reply to JC in this thread Mercurial tools (including Visual Studio plug-in and web server) are free. If you can set Central Mercurial Server (to play with) on your publicly available IIS web server and post reproducible setup steps that would be very useful for many developers AFAICS: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484151/how-to-setup-mercurial-central-re pository-on-shared-hosting http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Breen Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 16:39:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:39:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: <4BAE7B0F.1060707@colbyconsulting.com> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 16:54:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:54:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John It is 1 that is True. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 17:06:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:06:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAE814B.4050902@colbyconsulting.com> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 17:19:18 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:19:18 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 07:36:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Sun Mar 28 08:24:39 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:24:39 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Hi Gustav, What is MyBooleanOrBitField? Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 28 10:18:44 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:18:44 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> References: , <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Message-ID: <4BAF7354.22705.17DE841A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> An example name fo the Boolean( Access BE) or Bit (SQL Server BE) field he is working with. -- Stuart On 28 Mar 2010 at 8:24, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Gustav, > > What is MyBooleanOrBitField? > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? > > Hi John > > That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and > false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is > - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. > I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to > use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to > make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. > > /gustav > > >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> > Any idea why it displays as -1? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > It is 1 that is True. > > > > /gustav > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I > have a bit field and > > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out > records. If I try == True it > > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set > (true). > > > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it > display -1 but I can't > > test for that? > > > > TIA > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 28 14:22:07 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:22:07 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. To look up a record here is one method I use. ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: private void ChangeCustomerSelection() { if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) { _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); } else { this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() { this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); } Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: private void SaveRow() { if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) { // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) { bool enableSave = this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; if (enableSave) { this.Validate(false); if (FormValidated()) { this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; // Enable selection of customer. this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; } } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } } } private bool FormValidated() { // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) { return false; } if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) { return false; } return true; } This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 17:40:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:40:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAFDAF3.7070707@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Gustav, This is the kind of stuff I need. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 21:31:02 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:31:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB010E6.5090106@colbyconsulting.com> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 29 02:21:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:21:13 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John That is a method created by VS when you add a custom select query to a DataTable in the designer (right-click at the bottom of the box holding the table). As one of the last steps, the wizard offers to create two methods, GetData() and Fill(), which you can rename, and this I do to reflect what the query - and thus the method - does. It is all stored in the xsd file of the dataset as this snip of the XML shows: SELECT CustomerId, EmailAddress, EmailAddressType, Id, Inactive, Name FROM CustomerEmail WHERE (CustomerId = @CustomerId) ORDER BY Name /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 29-03-2010 04:31 >>> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 30 08:59:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Message-ID: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:16:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:16:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: So you're talking about using the combo as a navigational tool? We create user controls for this purpose and load them into the header area of the form. Our nav controls have next/prev buttons and a combo that allows the user to select a particular record. The nav control has a handler in the form and the form sinks the results of a change in value and calls a routine to reload the data for the form using a where clause built on the nav control value. Or possibly uses the data for the filter property of a dataview and sets the binding context of the form to that. There are other possibilities that I leave you to discover. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:36 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:22:08 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler In-Reply-To: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, We use an IsValid method on each of our forms/subforms and call that before allowing the user to leave a form. The routine tests against any rules we've established to determine whether this is a valid record, and if it is, it calls an update routine and returns a true value to the calling object. If you use the bindingcontext of the datasource and EndCurrentEdit, you can reliably call HasChanges and if so update the datasource. With a grid, the IsValid method is called from the validating event of the grid, so it is triggered when the grid loses focus or adds or changes a row. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:04 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 30 14:00:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:00:54 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control In-Reply-To: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001c01cad03b$548990f0$6a01a8c0@nant> VisualHG - http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ Mercurial isn't "so much better" - it's different, and more suitable for distributed source control... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:00 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 31 16:11:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:11:47 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance Message-ID: <000f01cad116$c7608e40$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, If you haven't yet got collected a set of "bird view" links on MS Application Platform here it's: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance http://blogs.msdn.com/jmeier/archive/2010/02/08/mapping-out-the-microsoft-ap plication-platform-at-a-glance.aspx Thank you. -- Shamil From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 4 07:24:29 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:24:29 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform Message-ID: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 09:07:59 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:07:59 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003040707x505c97f3ja15514f5440d37c1@mail.gmail.com> This site: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/?lang=cs#master has a bunch of excellent tutorials, with several on master/detail forms. Doug On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:24 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out > how to do that in C#, > probably using a DataGridView as the subform. > > I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do > the parent/child link > thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the > child table. Basically I > want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the > subform automatically > display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / > child table. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 4 10:45:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:45:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform In-Reply-To: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B8FB48D.9030104@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: There are a variety of ways to do it, John. The simplest I've found is to create a usercontrol with whatever controls I need on it, grid, listview, textboxes, whatever. The usercontrol usually has a public method called FillData with arguments for the values needed to sync the usercontrol to the parent form. When we use FillData, the subform fills its own datasource using the arguments passed in. This acts pretty much like the master/child links in Access. An alternative is to fill the dataset at the parent form and simply pass a datarow to the usercontrol. Or possibly the entire dataset if you're using a grid. You would only do that when the subform is causing changes to the parent form because they share fields. Not an ideal situation but one that happens sometimes. We most commonly run into the need when we have a grid that includes a button to popup a child form. Since changes to the child form also changes the data displayed in the grid (which shows a subset of information), we pass the datarow to the child form so that the changes are automatically made as if a ByRef were being used. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:24 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Emulate the Access subform I like the Access main form / subform paradigm. I am trying to figure out how to do that in C#, probably using a DataGridView as the subform. I assume that you guys do something like this. I need to know how you do the parent/child link thing to cause the parent ID to automatically fill in the FK field in the child table. Basically I want the user to be able to move through the main form records and have the subform automatically display the child records, then stop and fill in records in the subform / child table. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 13:21:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:21:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view Message-ID: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:19:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate That works great. Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: UPDATE vSplitZip SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> the update happens and all is well. My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: UPDATE (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. Any assistance greatly appreciated. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 14:39:05 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:39:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com> <4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From drawbridgej at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 5 15:30:34 2010 From: drawbridgej at sympatico.ca (Jack and Pat) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, Glad you solved it. I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = Right([zip9],4); jack -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 3:39 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.; Sqlserver-Dba Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view And of course I figured it out. WITH T1 AS (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) UPDATE T1 SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] GO Sorry for the ring. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > Sorry the previous email got mangled in the creation. > > I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add > the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: > > SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate > > That works great. > > Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: > > UPDATE vSplitZip > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4]> > > the update happens and all is well. > > My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: > > UPDATE > (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 > FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) > > SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] > ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. > > When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the > changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. > > I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored > procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the > table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. > > So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of > thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> I have a recurring situation where I will get a zip9 and need to split it into zip5 / zip4. I add >> the two fields to the table, then use right() and left() to carve out the pieces in a query as follows: >> >> SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate >> >> That works great. >> >> Now if I save that to a view vSplitzip and use the following: >> >> UPDATE vSplitZip >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] > > >> the update happens and all is well. >> >> My problem is that I really want to not have to create the view, but rather to do something like: >> >> UPDATE >> (SELECT LEFT(Zip9, 5) AS SplitZip5, RIGHT(Zip9, 4) AS SplitZip4, Zip5, Zip4 >> FROM dbo.AZSMKRevalidate) >> >> SET [Zip5] = [SplitZip5] >> ,[Zip4] = [SplitZip4] >> >> IOW to replace the view with the exact same SQL statement as is stored in the view. >> >> When I do that however SQL Server pukes, with the infamous "error near (". Obviously I need the >> changes to post back down to the original table that I created the new fields on. >> >> I want to do this because if I can do it this way, then I can throw everything into a stored >> procedure where I pass in the name of the db and table, have the SP create the new fields in the >> table, build the SQL statement on the fly, and do the split on any db / table. >> >> So is it possible to do an update to a select statement like this? I have seen " AS T1" kind of >> thing but tried that and couldn't get that to work either. >> >> Any assistance greatly appreciated. >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2723 - Release Date: 03/05/10 02:34:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 5 16:00:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:00:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Update without using a view In-Reply-To: References: <4B9159C9.7000701@colbyconsulting.com><4B91676F.60000@colbyconsulting.com> <4B916BE9.6020506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B917EF6.6050607@colbyconsulting.com> Jack, That would, in this specific case, because in this case everything is contained in a single table. I am trying to solve a larger problem however which is that I often have to do updates to views where I am joining table A to Table B On PKID and then updating tableA.FieldA = TableB.FieldA. I am not a SQL guru and I do not play one on TV, but the only way I know how to do that is to save the query as a view, then update the view. By learning how to use Common Table Expressions (CTEs), I can create the view "in memory" and update it right then and there. What I used to do was create the query in code, then save the query (as a view) in code, then update the saved view in code. The issue I ran into is that TSQL didn't like to save a query using the DBName.Dbo.Viewname syntax. IOW the stored procedure doing all of this had to be stored in and executed from the database that the view would be saved in. I am trying to create a library of stored procedures that can be run against any database and stored in a "library" database. This CTE thingie provides me with that "indirection". John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jack and Pat wrote: > John, > Glad you solved it. > > I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > > UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = > Right([zip9],4); > > jack From raibeart at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 11:29:31 2010 From: raibeart at gmail.com (Robert Stewart) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:29:31 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] dba-VB Digest, Vol 77, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b93e26a.5644f10a.1ac0.0e83@mx.google.com> That is the correct and simple way of doing it Jack. At 12:00 PM 3/6/2010, you wrote: >Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:30:34 -0500 >From: "Jack and Pat" >Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Update without using a view >To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming > issues.'" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >John, >Glad you solved it. > >I'm curious, and I don't use Sql server, but why wouldn't this work > >UPDATE dbo.AZSMKRevalidate SET zip5 = Left([zip9],5), zip4 = >Right([zip9],4); > >jack From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 16:18:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx Message-ID: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 8 18:06:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John: That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short sighted.) Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx An interesting read http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 8 22:08:34 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:08:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx In-Reply-To: References: <4B9577B9.3030004@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B95C9C2.3060505@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, not at all. They need something to spend their time on. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi John: > > That is a very interesting read indeed. Many people, I know of in the > industry, have articulated similar sentiments but I have been unaware of the > universality of this methodology. (IMHO it is really sick and short > sighted.) > > Do you mind if I pass this link on to the DBA OT list? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:19 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving; VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] The Game Industry - Push cx > > An interesting read > > http://push.cx/2009/the-game-industry From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 14:47:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:47:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Message-ID: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in version control. But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like file://F:/Repositories It gives an error Repository is not available unable to open an ra_local session to URL Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to the server. I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked in, the rest refuse. Has anyone run into / solved this problem? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 15:04:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:04:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 16:35:38 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:35:38 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it just seems to work :-) Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches with shared projects every time. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just fine, both from my laptop and from the server. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first time. I installed the SVN > and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened a project, and did an initial > deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid array) and it took a bit of > messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of my c# VS2008 projects is in > version control. > > But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be that VisualVSN just passes > commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error codes are unfriendly. > > I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use something like > > file://F:/Repositories > > It gives an error > > Repository is not available > unable to open an ra_local session to URL > Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' > > I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network (different URL though) and local to > the server. > > I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, even from my laptop. I just > can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server directly. > > I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing projects. The first one checked > in, the rest refuse. > > Has anyone run into / solved this problem? > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 10 18:57:31 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:57:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 10 19:11:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:11:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN References: <4B980563.7040603@colbyconsulting.com> <4B98095E.7060207@colbyconsulting.com><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D56@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B983FFB.9000705@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D57@ddi-01.DDI.local> Not yet, I may be starting a new SQL based project soon so I'll give it a go then. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 11:58 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN I am looking forward to using this. Having all of the code in a VCS is going to be a huge improvement. Have you managed to use it with SQL Server's Management Studio? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Hi John, > > Been running Subversion here for a few months now. Very impressive. > I've not had cause to delve too deeply into how it all works because it > just seems to work :-) > Integration with VS 2008 is great, unlike SS which caused me headaches > with shared projects every time. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:05 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Subversion / VisualSVN > > Well... of course after pressing "Send" ;) > > Instead of the File:// crap, just using the actual path worked just > fine, both from my laptop and > from the server. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> I am trying to set up Visual SVN on my server and laptop for the first > time. I installed the SVN >> and Tortoise on the server, then Visual SVN. I opened VS 2008, opened > a project, and did an initial >> deposit. I am trying to place the repository on my F: drive (a raid > array) and it took a bit of >> messing around but eventually I managed to get it to work. So ONE of > my c# VS2008 projects is in >> version control. >> >> But now, trying to get the rest in there. the problem seems to be > that VisualVSN just passes >> commands to a command utility and if that fails, the resulting error > codes are unfriendly. >> I am trying set it up on my RAID volume F:\Repositories. So I use > something like >> file://F:/Repositories >> >> It gives an error >> >> Repository is not available >> unable to open an ra_local session to URL >> Unable to open 'File://F:/Repositories' >> >> I am getting this same error from my laptop across the network > (different URL though) and local to >> the server. >> >> I am able to check out the one project that I managed to check in, > even from my laptop. I just >> can't check in the next one, either from my laptop or from the server > directly. >> I have been working on the server in VS2008 so I have some existing > projects. The first one checked >> in, the rest refuse. >> >> Has anyone run into / solved this problem? >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/10/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2715 - Release Date: 03/11/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 07:34:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:34:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Message-ID: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. First of all, it ain't fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or clean install over it. Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding smoothly. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 07:42:30 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:42:30 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 10:26:17 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:26:17 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev > laptop, which was running SQL Server Express 2005, could not connect to the > databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In the > end I had to completely > uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:15:37 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:15:37 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 11:36:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:36:22 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that > was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access > etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and > 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not > work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >> back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:58:41 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:58:41 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <6B1635AA335E48D6A28B41F5D6443CDA@Server> If you, for example, download DNN from here :http://www.microsoft.com/web/gallery/Default.aspx You get tons of tools with it incl SQL Server 2008 etc but no management stuff. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:36 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. And I too ran around in circles looking for an express edition of 2008. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? > > I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and > that was incompatible... > > No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the > management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, > access etc, that sort of thing. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both > 2008 and 2005. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install > > ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will > not work in 2008. > > Not absolutely sure about that, but... > > max > > > On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > >> Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server >> awhile back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server >> Express 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >> So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev > laptop. >> First of all, it ain't >> fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In >> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >> clean install over it. >> >> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >> smoothly. >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:10:50 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> <4B992A16.1040600@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003111110i6a9a3d2fi896b06b0ad72682e@mail.gmail.com> What issues are you seeing? I deal with .Net 2005/SQLCE3.0 and .Net2008/SQLCE3.5 and the two aren't compatible with each other. .Net2008 wont read a SQLCE3.0 database and vice versa. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:36 AM, jwcolby wrote: > 2005 stuff does not work with 2008 AFAICT. ?And I too ran around in circles looking for an express > edition of 2008. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: >> Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? >> >> I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that >> was incompatible... >> >> No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the >> management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access >> etc, that sort of thing. >> >> Max >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and >> 2005. >> >> Charlotte Foust >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install >> >> ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not >> work in 2008. >> >> Not absolutely sure about that, but... >> >> max >> >> >> On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: >> >>> Well THAT was a PITA. ?I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile >>> back. ?Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express >>> 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. >>> ?So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev >> laptop. >>> ?First of all, it ain't >>> fast. ?Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. ?In >>> the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. >>> It simply did NOT LIKE Express >>> 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or >>> clean install over it. >>> >>> Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding >>> smoothly. >>> >>> -- >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:32:33 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen Message-ID: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:35:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:35:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Never mind John, As least your c# is coming on a-pace. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. Sigh. Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of my backups restored to 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files in a directory. I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a query. And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have restored my backups to the alternate server. I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. How to waste a day. Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From fuller.artful at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 14:42:24 2010 From: fuller.artful at gmail.com (Arthur Fuller) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:42:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is awesome. Arthur From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:51:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> Message-ID: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) and > writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my databases, > mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free backup > was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get all of > my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them back > out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# code to do > that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able to re-backup using > the latest and greatest and don't even need the Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have that > working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of reading the files > in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor to > begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I discover a > largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the right > service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the services one > last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset of file names in a > query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will have > restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 11 14:53:41 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B995855.60105@colbyconsulting.com> With 2008 developer edition, backup compression is built-in so I don't really need anything any more. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Thu Mar 11 14:56:00 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com> <5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:48:25 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:48:25 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install In-Reply-To: References: <4B98F16D.7000308@colbyconsulting.com><5403ACEB6C8F4EFEB3692D4C67B2F281@Server> Message-ID: Thanks Charlotte, Why didn't MS say that on their forum!! They have "experts" posting there telling people to use the 2005 tools. If you want to know anything, come to AccessD. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:56 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install You can download the SQL 2008 management tools and they work on Express. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install Yes, but is that the 2008 Express edition? I couldn't find one and MS's web site said to use the 2005 Express and that was incompatible... No quite sure if we are talking about the same thing, but it is the management console which allow the SA to change people, passwords, access etc, that sort of thing. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install The 2008 management tools are better anyhow, and they work in both 2008 and 2005. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:43 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] SQL Server 2008 install ..and I think you will find that the management console for 2005 will not work in 2008. Not absolutely sure about that, but... max On 11 March 2010 13:34, jwcolby wrote: > Well THAT was a PITA. I installed SQL Server 2008 on my server awhile > back. Since then my dev laptop, which was running SQL Server Express > 2005, could not connect to the databases on the server. > So last night late I decided to install SQL Server 2008 on the dev laptop. > First of all, it ain't > fast. Second it kept failing with this warning and that warning. In > the end I had to completely uninstall all the old SQL Server stuff. > It simply did NOT LIKE Express > 2005 and wouldn't upgrade or > clean install over it. > > Since a complete uninstall, the 2008 install seems to be proceeding > smoothly. > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:51:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:51:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com><2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <4B9957BB.2040109@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: I am going to learn PowerBasic next. Once I have finished the Blat Form program (and that is nearly there) I want to put it into an .exe and from what I read on the PB site, it should be pretty straight forward with their Forms module. I did Quick Basic (Qbasic) some years back and that was very powerful without a too steep learning curve. C# is OTT for my needs. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. LOL, it is indeed. I started taking a C# class at the local community college last fall semester (sept). At that time I couldn't do much of anything in C# directly. Since then I have done hundreds of hours in C# and am finally feeling somewhat comfortable in it. I live by example code. I get something running and then look back at that to see how I did it before. It sure wouldn't be the same without the internet though. I have learned so much from googlin stuff. I have to also say that the state of the art in .Net and SQL Server has advanced so much in just the last 5 years. AMAZING! John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > Never mind John, > > As least your c# is coming on a-pace. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:33 PM > To: VBA; Dba-Sqlserver > Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen > > I spent many hours searching for a free SQL Server backup tool (Idera) > and writing stored procedures to automatically back up all of my > databases, mount them, unmount them etc., from C#. > > Then I updated to SQL Server 2008 and it all broke. The Idera Free > backup was a DLL and apparently it is simply incompatible with SQL Server 2008. > Sigh. > > Luckily my other server still has 2005 installed so... I need to get > all of my backups restored to > 2005 so that they are available in case I need them, then write them > back out using 2008 and its wonderful compression. I have written C# > code to do that, so once I get the backups restored I should be able > to re-backup using the latest and greatest and don't even need the > Idera Free backup > - which is a good thing since it has since gone away entirely. > > Lesson learned - free is only free until it's not. > > So, I had never automated restoring the lot of backups in a directory. > Never needed to. However the Idera Free restore does that and I have > that working on the 2005 server so... all I need is a method of > reading the files in a directory. > > I go a googlin' and what pops up but Phil Factor. I LOVE Phil Factor > to begin with. Just a cool guy. Anyway within a few minutes I > discover a largeish piece of code that looks like it will work. > Except that it needs the OLEDB stuff turned on in surface area config. > Except that I've shut down all of the extraneous SQL Server services > (because this server normally just hosts my VMs). I finally get the > right service started, the OLEDB stuff enabled, turn off / on all the > services one last time and voila, TSQL code that hands me a recordset > of file names in a query. > > And on, and on, and on. With luck, before I go to bed tonight, I will > have restored my backups to the alternate server. > > I'm a wondering now... can I backup a database on server A running SQl > Server 2005 from Server B running 2008? I guess I'll find out. > > How to waste a day. > > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > Ahhhoooooommmmm this is what I do for a living... > > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 16:54:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:54:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: <4B9AC643.2060203@colbyconsulting.com> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 12 22:51:00 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:51:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# inheritance - first foray Message-ID: <4B9B19B4.204@colbyconsulting.com> Tonight I made my first foray into doing my own base class and inheriting that, as opposed to inheriting a base class from the framework, which I have done many times. I had designed a class which implemented my stored procedure widget. Basically the what and why was that I wanted to absolutely standardize the names and data types of a set of parameters that I pass to my stored procedures in SQL Server. I developed a fair number of SPs over a couple of years. I didn't check back (for naming conventions) to previous SPs as I developed the next so I ended up with the "same" variable named many different things. @FieldName and @FldName, @TableName and @tblName etc. Once I started trying to drive them from C# is became a PITA because the name passed in from C# must exactly match the name in the SP definition line. Thus I started defining a standard out in my C# code and rebuilding the SPs as I encountered errors trying to run the SPs. Code like: public void paramDBName(string lstrDBName) { sCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter( "@DBName", SqlDbType.VarChar, 50)); sCmd.Parameters["@DBName"].Value = lstrDBName; } and public void paramErrorDesc() { base.pCmd.Parameters.Add(new SqlParameter("@ErrorDesc", System.Data.SqlDbType.VarChar, 4000)); base.pCmd.Parameters["@ErrorDesc"].Direction = System.Data.ParameterDirection.Output; } This effectively "hard codes" the parameter name, but allows easy passing of the value going into that parameter, or defining the direction if it is a value coming back. I have about 20 of these parameters. So fine I did that. Then I defined the command object, initialization code, variables to allow me to capture the time required to execute the SP, code to log the fact that the sp executed etc. This worked great for my "generic" SPs. Except that I eventually wanted to define some specific parameters for stored procedures used for purposed processes, such as backup / restore. But I still wanted the code surrounding the command object to be standard. So tonight I started carving that "class header" kind of stuff out into a base class, and inheriting that in the child classes. It is interesting what you have to go through to make it happen. I seem to have the main class that I carved apart working, now I have to go into the other classes and carve out the header stuff and have them inherit the base class. It is also interesting working with projects within a solution. The main clsStoredProcedure is out in its own project under the solution and has to be added under references etc. Learning C# has been a journey, and I haven't gotten all that far along the road. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 02:59:26 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:59:26 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? Nothing special I need to do? If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 05:48:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:48:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9B7B79.4040205@colbyconsulting.com> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 08:40:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:40:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John So now you are a lucky man! Red indicates conflicts or errors. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 12-03-2010 23:54 >>> > So this stuff is just automatic? I checked in my main project, and now I am adding stuff, modifying > stuff etc. Just checking it back in stores the changes and preserves the old stuff "just in case"? > Nothing special I need to do? > > If that is the case it sure makes me feel a ton better. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 09:59:52 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:59:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9BB678.1040503@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 10:07:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:07:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi John Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > So now you are a lucky man! > Red indicates conflicts or errors. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >> >> /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 10:16:39 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:16:39 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > > >Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 13 11:25:03 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:25:03 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi David Yes, it will bring up the two files showing the parts where they differ and let you pick and choose which parts to keep. /gustav >>> davidmcafee at gmail.com 13-03-2010 17:16 >>> If I remember correctly, you can even compare two checked in versions for differences. Gustav Brock wrote: >Hi John > >Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation may happen if you are a little confused. > >/gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different machines, and so far it is just me. > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Sat Mar 13 11:53:48 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:53:48 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> "if you are a little confused" ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Gustav Brock" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM To: Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > Hi John > > Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > may happen if you are a little confused. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > > I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different > machines, and so far it is just me. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> So now you are a lucky man! >> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >> assume. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 13 12:09:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working copy on my laptop. If anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the server to get a fresh copy. I have wanted to do this for a long time. The obvious next question is... Access? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com William Hindman wrote: > "if you are a little confused" > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Gustav Brock" > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > >> Hi John >> >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation >> may happen if you are a little confused. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? >> >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two different >> machines, and so far it is just me. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> So now you are a lucky man! >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I >>> assume. >>> >>> John W. Colby >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com >>> >>> >>> Gustav Brock wrote: >>>> Hi John >>>> >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. >>>> >>>> /gustav >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 08:35:03 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:35:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 09:00:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:00:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 10:18:21 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. Careful, there, John. GRrrrr Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 10:49:39 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:49:39 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <4B9E3D7B.1000703@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9E5713.7090808@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: >> filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > Careful, there, John. GRrrrr > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:00 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > That ignores the psychological phenomenon where scarcity implies value. > > "preferred" is not valuable with qualifying that. "Preferred" by who? It is already preferred by > the beginning programmer. The employer however may actually use the "C# is harder" as a natural > filter to weed out the less capable / dedicated programmer. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Dan Waters wrote: >> http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx >> >> This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality >> differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. >> For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the >> preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's >> easier to read. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Mon Mar 15 15:06:43 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:06:43 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Mon Mar 15 15:52:10 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:52:10 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 16:00:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:00:35 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <288F1A0CAAB44D76BC2A5F8F8B418314@Server> Perhaps, if (and only if) they had dropped the stupid curly brances which is not "normal" in a language no matter what the origin. If the structure of functions and commands did not have meaningless clutter. Unnecessary and unwanted and serve no purpose other than obfuscation. 2p Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Mon Mar 15 16:51:08 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Mon Mar 15 17:13:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:13:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: , <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:25:47 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Mon Mar 15 17:40:24 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:40:24 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 17:49:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list Message-ID: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a list of zips. I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, this would narrow things down pretty well. So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. Does that make sense. OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't know where to find that, though I will Google more. Anyway... I ran out and found C# code to perform that calculation. It would be NICE to do this in TSQL in a query right inside of SQL Server. I found code for both. Ain't the internet GRAND? The C# code: // Calculate Distance in Milesdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625); // Calculate Distance in Kilometersdouble //d = GeoCodeCalc.CalcDistance(47.8131545175277, -122.783203125, 42.0982224111897, -87.890625, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers); //GeoCodeCalc C# Class: public static class GeoCodeCalc{ public const double EarthRadiusInMiles = 3956.0; public const double EarthRadiusInKilometers = 6367.0; public static double ToRadian(double val) { return val * (Math.PI / 180); } public static double DiffRadian(double val1, double val2) { return ToRadian(val2) - ToRadian(val1); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. Defaults to using Miles. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2) { return CalcDistance(lat1, lng1, lat2, lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Miles); } /// /// Calculate the distance between two geocodes. /// public static double CalcDistance(double lat1, double lng1, double lat2, double lng2, GeoCodeCalcMeasurement m) { double radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInMiles; if (m == GeoCodeCalcMeasurement.Kilometers) { radius = GeoCodeCalc.EarthRadiusInKilometers; } return radius * 2 * Math.Asin( Math.Min(1, Math.Sqrt( ( Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lat1, lat2)) / 2.0), 2.0) + Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat1)) * Math.Cos(ToRadian(lat2)) * Math.Pow(Math.Sin((DiffRadian(lng1, lng2)) / 2.0), 2.0) ) ) ) ); } } public enum GeoCodeCalcMeasurement : int { Miles = 0, Kilometers = 1 } The TSQL code: Create Function [dbo].[fnGetDistance] ( @Lat1 Float(18), @Long1 Float(18), @Lat2 Float(18), @Long2 Float(18), @ReturnType VarChar(10) ) Returns Float(18) AS Begin Declare @R Float(8); Declare @dLat Float(18); Declare @dLon Float(18); Declare @a Float(18); Declare @c Float(18); Declare @d Float(18); Set @R = Case @ReturnType When 'Miles' Then 3956.55 When 'Kilometers' Then 6367.45 When 'Feet' Then 20890584 When 'Meters' Then 6367450 Else 20890584 -- Default feet (Garmin rel elev) End Set @dLat = Radians(@lat2 - @lat1); Set @dLon = Radians(@long2 - @long1); Set @a = Sin(@dLat / 2) * Sin(@dLat / 2) + Cos(Radians(@lat1)) * Cos(Radians(@lat2)) * Sin(@dLon / 2) * Sin(@dLon / 2); Set @c = 2 * Asin(Min(Sqrt(@a))); Set @d = @R * @c; Return @d; End -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:50:17 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:50:17 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: "over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework." jc ...exactly ...as I said earlier in this thread, the ONLY reasons I'm investing time in C# are: 1: Potential employers give far more respect to C# than they do to VB/VBA ...like it or not, its true 2: There is one HELL of a lot more sample code for .net in C# than there is in VB ...again, like it or not, its true William -------------------------------------------------- From: "jwcolby" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next > line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# > really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two > >different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case > insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't > LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and > the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if > you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" > is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a > doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT > easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you > are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more > keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to > mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier > and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and > whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to > become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW > the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB > syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and > other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the >> person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI >> Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact >> the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic >> or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, >> dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 17:53:34 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:53:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 18:12:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9EBED9.1070200@colbyconsulting.com> I am just explaining what the ; does. It is not valid nor invalid, just the facts ma'm. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > You won't need continuation characters in the next version of VB.Net either, John. Not a valid argument! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:26 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? > > Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. > > From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that > regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. > > >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. > > I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern > coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact > C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC > first character (or VV). > > And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend > that, whether in VB or C#. > > It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try > reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if > you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax > require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that > from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it > takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays > the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. > > I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is > easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first > and / or longest is which is "easiest". > > I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# > over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn > either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as > opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going > to be 95% (or more!). > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Drew Wutka wrote: >> I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development >> in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many >> tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already >> written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since >> I'm not doing it full time anyways. >> >> However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment >> in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he >> clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. >> There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty >> much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But >> it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we >> create, therefore the creator understands it the best. >> >> However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in >> C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. >> One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive >> parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 >> years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have >> strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and >> found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a >> vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case >> sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an >> instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on >> that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style >> difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure >> nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need >> to put ; at the end of a line? >> >> Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' >> files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. >> I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size >> of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of >> broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) >> >> Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word >> laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: >> >> class SomeClass >> { >> private int someField; >> >> public int SomeField >> { >> get { return SomeField; } >> } >> } >> >> Versus: >> >> Option Explicit >> Public SomeField as Integer >> >> Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? >> >> Drew >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Dan -- >> >> <<< >> ...because it's easier to read... >> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code >> for >> a (beginner) programmer?: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> or >> >> dim line as string = "test" >> >> IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial >> value >> equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: >> >> string line = "test"; >> >> but not to a VB.NET one... >> >> And there could be found many samples like that one above, more >> complicated >> samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# >> coding >> and algorithmic specifications... >> >> IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more >> straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" >> programming language over time... >> >> Thank you :) >> >> -- >> Shamil >> >> The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business >> Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender >> immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. >> You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, >> or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Mon Mar 15 18:44:59 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:44:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 19:03:53 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:03:53 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. ?I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:35 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. ?It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Mon Mar 15 19:37:51 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:37:51 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Mon Mar 15 20:01:13 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:01:13 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9ED859.6050204@colbyconsulting.com> Likewise, ATM. However unlike you I am still young enough that I probably will eventually. It is best for me to prepare. In the end C# has not been so bad. Yes, VB would have been easier but not enough so to lose potential clients (or sleep) over. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. > > C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. > > I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" > something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. > > I need to stop thinking that way. > > It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of > using the GUI. > > I'm so glad I finally did! > > D > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 21:53:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:53:00 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:37:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:37:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> Message-ID: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 01:48:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:48:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:21:34 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:21:34 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 03:23:44 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:23:44 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Tue Mar 16 03:55:39 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:55:39 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Message-ID: Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 05:17:12 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:17:12 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But I do Gustav, When I am writing a financial proposal I put it in financial terms using standard terminology and laid out in a specific way. When I am writing a medical case for funding I put it in medical terminology and laid out in a specific way. etc etc But in all cases, I am using plain language, not interspersed with unnecessary hieroglyphics which are only there because the people who wrote the particular compilers for that language wished it to be so, not because it is necessary- you have only to look at other languages written for other compilers to know that is so. Take Stuart's PB. That is an excellent example of easy to read, high level code which compiles down to executable code - no P code etc. The reason I, and many other people, use Access is because of the RAD that it comes with. Thanks for the F# link, that is very interesting. max On 16 March 2010 08:55, Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi Max > > > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and > write. > > But to you F# must smell like honey: > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) > > /gustav > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 06:04:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:04:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> Message-ID: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. You might try to use netCOBOL: http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview Thank you. --Shamil P.S. <<< why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? >>> Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Horses for Courses, Shamil None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are "good" things. 1. Case should be indifferent. 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal indentation serves the same purposes. 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the wrong result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a different matter entirely. Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and brevity. When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max -- Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the following declarations: 1) string _temp; 2) string temp; 3) string Temp; are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good programmers' hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages do... "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can easily get similar kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good (unit) testing... "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" as I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', methods', ... code lines... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan <<< skip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:21:01 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:21:01 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:22 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Horses for Courses, Shamil > > None of what you state would even remotely convince me that they are > "good" > things. > > 1. Case should be indifferent. > 2. Curly braces should be left on kid's teeth - they have no place in > programming and merely serve to take up lines where code should be, thus > reducing the amount of code that can be seen at a glance. Normal > indentation serves the same purposes. > 3. ADA - The absence of a silly piece of syntax does not give rise to the > same sort of error as late binding whereby the error is giving the > wrong > result. A wrong result is a completely different sort of error. I can > understand your emails wether or not you leave out a full stop at the end > of the sentence and you can understand mine. It is only there by > convention and not by necessity. Adding 2+2 and getting 5 is however, a > different matter entirely. > > Sorry, but not convinced that OIIV (obtuse, irrelevant, inaccurate and > verbosity) will ever win over CRAB. Clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity. > > When it all gets compiled down to the same thing, then why (apart from > masochistic tendencies) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:49 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hi Max -- > > Programming language variables' etc. case sensitivity used with generally > approved naming conventions is more "KISSful" approach IMO (just IMO) - the > following declarations: > > 1) string _temp; > 2) string temp; > 3) string Temp; > > are all different, and easily distinguished when referred from the code - > they (IMO just IMO) can't be a source of obscure errors in good > programmers' > hands. They in fact help as they make programming language more expressfull > using minimal "expression tools" - case sensitivity - as natural languages > do... > > "ADA fiasco" you mentioned was not caused (IMO just IMO) by ADA syntax but > by insufficient (unit) testing - in VB(A)/VB.NET you can > easily get similar > kinds of errors if you'll use late binding or Eval() or Run() without good > (unit) testing... > > "Curly braces" - { ... } - they are my best friends now - "helping hands" > as > I have already noted enclosing/keeping/scoping code blocks or properties', > methods', ... code lines... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:53 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Except for one thing Jim, > > Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is > diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in > logic and in implementation. > > Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it > was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting > somewhere over norther Nebraska. > > Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure > text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". > KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). > > > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so > what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who > cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are > always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does > a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who > cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > <<< skip >>> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 06:54:03 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:54:03 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 06:59:01 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:59:01 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Of the top of my head: Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator I degree at equator = 69.172 5 / 69.172 = .07228 So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > list of zips. > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > Does that make sense. > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > know where to find that, though I will Google more. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:01:55 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:01:55 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and mathematic symbols? because that is the language of mathematics and similarly for chemistry, etc. Using these symbols is universally recognised for this particular subject matter. There is ONE language for chemistry and the whole World uses it. And similarly for other specialised subject areas. curly brackets are NOT the language of coding and do nothing to enhance readability or understanding of what the code is trying to do. To understand what the code is doing it is necessary to read the code BETWEEN the obfuscation caused by sprinkling meaningless symbols all over it. Take the words out of the code and you do not have code. Take the curly brackets out of the code and you are still left with code - albeit not code that will run in a curly bracket compiler. max On 16 March 2010 11:04, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Yes, I know there is no way to "even remotely convince" you that C# is one > of the best (the best IMO) examples of "clarity, relevance, accuracy and > brevity" for general purpose programming languages. And so I didn't try to > convince you - I just expressed my opinion here. > > You might try to use netCOBOL: > http://www.netcobol.com/products/Fujitsu-NetCOBOL-for-.NET/overview > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > P.S. > <<< > why (apart from masochistic tendencies) would > anybody go for non-plain language coding? > >>> > Why ("apart from masochistic tendencies") does people use arithmetic and > mathematic symbols? > <<< snip >>> From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 07:16:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:16:54 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000401cac502$91e8a5b0$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) <<< Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs >>> Niklaus Wirth's book (http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/books/AlgorithmE0/) was one of my first books on generic principles of programming together with Knuth's one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming But that was 20th century, and we're in 21st one now. And nowadays "slogan" is "Objects + Messages = Programs" call it OOP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming) or not - it's rather different approach to Niklaus Wirth's classics... I could be missing something but IMO modern projects having hundreds of thousands/millions of code lines can't be developed and supported economically effective way by using 20-ieth century ideas... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Also, if I could just add one bit more to this interesting discussion. 1. I came from a background where Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs 2. Coding came from pidgin languages like PDL - http://www.cfg.com/pdl81/pdlpaper.html where we can express our needs independant of the code platform. 3. and from there comes the need to actually code it into the language of your choice. If you choose C# then that is fine. If you choose verbosity over clarity then that is fine. Just remember that at some stage it is going to compile down to machine code - all the other stuff is there for us humans. 4. If we could read/write machine code as easy as we can read/write, say English, then we would not need any high level code platform but we probably would still need 1. and perhaps 2. above. 3. would be redundant. Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:20:38 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:20:38 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 07:40:35 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:40:35 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Public Dan Response() If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. Fortunately, I can write code without them. End Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 07:44:53 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:44:53 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 07:47:35 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:47:35 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] C# / SQL Server: select all zips within 5 miles of a ZIP list In-Reply-To: <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4B9EB96E.9000309@colbyconsulting.com>, <4B9F7285.15143.1085B5BE@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4B9F7DE7.23980.10B22AFD@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> That's what you get for "off the top of the head" :-( It should be: LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- .07228 / cosine(LatY) -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 21:59, Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Of the top of my head: > > Length of 1 degree of Longitude = cosine (latitude) * length of degree at equator > I degree at equator = 69.172 > 5 / 69.172 = .07228 > > So LonZ is within 5 miles of longitude of LonX, LatY > if LonZ lies in the range LonX +/- cosine(LatY) * .07228 > > -- > Stuart > > > On 15 Mar 2010 at 18:49, jwcolby wrote: > > > I wrote an Access application to get a list of all the zips within X miles of another zip, based on > > Lat/Long. Today my client asked me to perform population counts of all zips within 5 miles of a > > list of zips. > > > > I do not particularly want to do an exhaustive calculation (cartesian product) of each zip in the > > list against every other zip, there are 33K zips in my specific zip table. The list itself (in this > > instance) contains 400 zips and another that contains 250 zips. The distance calc has a ton of math > > and doing that math on 12 million lines is probably not going to be particularly speedy. > > > > In thinking about how to narrow down the results, it occurred to me that if i did a preliminary > > calculation on the Lat so that I only pulled other zips within 5 miles of the zip(s) in the list, > > this would narrow things down pretty well. > > > > So I did, and the result is 7K zips within 5 miles of the latitude of the 400 zips in the list. > > Does that make sense. > > > > OK so I have a list of 400 zips, and another list of 7K zips "in the 5 mile latitude band" as those > > 400 zips. That is certainly better. I could have done the same thing with the longitude. The > > problem is that the longitude is not a fixed distance apart, but rather starts at zero at the poles > > and becomes greatest at the equator. Although the max distance between two adjacent longitudes (for > > the US) is going to be found at a specific latitude point in the Hawaiian islands. If I just knew > > what that the distance was at that latitude in Hawaii I could use that factor as well. But I don't > > know where to find that, though I will Google more. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 07:57:59 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:57:59 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F8057.9030908@colbyconsulting.com> > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. No you wouldn't. The parens are often inserted INTENTIONALLY to make the equation more readable, even though it is often quite possible to cause the thing to work without them, and the math professor TEACHES US to use them to make the equation more readable and to ENSURE that it does what you intend. > Fortunately, I can write code without them. No, you can't! You use: If () then Begin end Else begin end While () begin end With() begin end Those Begin / End keywords are nothing more that parenthesis. Long, wordy, verbose parenthesis but parenthesis none the less. The parenthesis group the code into blocks that execute together. Use begin / end or {}, makes no difference to me but you are doing the exact same thing regardless. The language designer did NOT include them because they are unnecessary. (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end I LIKE a lot of things about VB but Begin / END is NOT one of them. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Public Dan Response() > > If I could write a mathematical algorithm that worked without using > parentheses, I would, and so would everyone else. > > Fortunately, I can write code without them. > > End Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing > about using parenthesis to > group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we > have people bitching and > moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! > > ;) > > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > Who in their right minds would WANT > > begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end > > Which is the more readable? > > In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want > to have to take the time > and effort to learn a new way. > > I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and > breath to continue this > conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants > to do the same? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 08:01:32 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> LOL, max your arguments are specious. Begin VBA DOES USE THEM End John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and > oranges. > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > Max > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:12:00 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:12:00 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> <001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant> <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 08:39:47 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:47 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong since the last list rumble :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > ROTL > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > Live with it. > > Max > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. >> >> Begin >> VBA DOES USE THEM >> End >> >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Max Wanadoo wrote: >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with >> > coding....apples >> and >> > oranges. >> > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct >> > calculations >> but >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in >> > every >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU >> and >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. >> > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and >> pretend >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some >> curly >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white >> > space >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe >> Public >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" >> > >> > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. >> When I >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is >> > it >> how >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I >> can >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. >> > What >> is >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it >> > is >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic >> > and >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and >> some >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the >> other, >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. >> > >> > Max >> > _______________________________________________ >> > dba-VB mailing list >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 08:46:35 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> References: <7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server> <000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> <1A15AC4235724155A355B14AC341EBCE@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Oh God, you joining in. Trouble at mill! Max On 16 March 2010 13:39, William Hindman wrote: > ...dear god, its been soooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooooong > since the last list rumble :) > > William > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:12 AM > To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > > ROTL > > > > Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! > > > > Live with it. > > > > Max > > > > > > > > On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > > > >> LOL, max your arguments are specious. > >> > >> Begin > >> VBA DOES USE THEM > >> End > >> > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com < > http://www.colbyconsulting.com/> > >> > >> > >> Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > >> > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with > >> > coding....apples > >> and > >> > oranges. > >> > > >> > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct > >> > calculations > >> but > >> > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in > >> > every > >> > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > >> and > >> > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > >> > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > >> > > >> > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > >> > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > >> pretend > >> > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > >> curly > >> > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white > >> > space > >> > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > >> Public > >> > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > >> > > >> > > >> > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > >> When I > >> > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is > >> > it > >> how > >> > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > >> can > >> > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. > >> > What > >> is > >> > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it > >> > is > >> > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues > doesn't > >> > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic > >> > and > >> > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > >> some > >> > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > >> other, > >> > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > >> > > >> > Max > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > dba-VB mailing list > >> > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 09:59:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:59:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Message-ID: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:16:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:16:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle with your statements of learning curves. However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except when it sees an underscore before it. Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:26 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Because now you don't need the _ nonsense to continue code to the next line. From the beginning of the line to the first ; is all a line of code. C# really is nice in that regard. White space is white space whether it is a space, tab or CRLF. >It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. I don't particularly like case sensitivity, I would PREFER case insensitivity, but now with modern coding editors it is dead easy to find and fix such things. I still don't LIKE it though. In fact C# coders tend to use a convention where the variable has UC all words and the function has a LC first character (or VV). And you can declare class fields public and do away with the get/set if you wish. I don't recommend that, whether in VB or C#. It is a fact that VB was designed to be easier to read, but again "easier" is relative to what? Try reading a medical article. Holy crap. But it is perfectly easy to a doctor. Trying to read VB if you come from C# is NOT easy, trying to read C# if you come from VB is NOT easy. Both syntax require learning. Writing code in VB is actually a tad harder once you are good at both, and that from a person that comes from VB. Typing Begin instead of { is more keystrokes. It just is, and it takes longer and allows this "keyboard dyslexic" lots of opportunities to mis-spell. OTOH nowadays the editor tends to do the "auto-finish" thing anyway. I think it is instructive to notice that the VB crowd says VB is easier and the C crowd says C# is easier. I think at the core, both are pretty much equally hard / easy and whichever you do first and / or longest is which is "easiest". I tend to believe that, over the long haul, the "extra" time it takes to become familiar with C# over VB is lost in the noise of the time to learn the .net framework. IOW the total time to learn either syntax is under 5% of the time to learn "dot net". Learning VB syntax might be 4.5% as opposed to 5% for C#. In either case learning all of the classes and other stuff of .Net is going to be 95% (or more!). John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development > in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many > tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already > written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since > I'm not doing it full time anyways. > > However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment > in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he > clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. > There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty > much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But > it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we > create, therefore the creator understands it the best. > > However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in > C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. > One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive > parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 > years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have > strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and > found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a > vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case > sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an > instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on > that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style > difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure > nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need > to put ; at the end of a line? > > Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' > files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. > I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size > of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of > broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) > > Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word > laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Versus: > > Option Explicit > Public SomeField as Integer > > Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? > > Drew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial > value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Mar 16 10:17:19 2010 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:17:19 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: <201003161454.o2GErls12123@smarthost.yourcomms.net> Yes, good practice and keeps code easier to find/manage e.g Form Load Events Control Events Data Accces Helper Misc It does take a little time, but when I do it I realise the benefit. Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: 16 March 2010 15:00 To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Why not visit our website www.bury.gov.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our information security policy. The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it is for the intended recipient(s) alone. 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Electronic service accepted only at legalservices at bury.gov.uk and on fax number 0161 253 5119 . ************************************************************* From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 10:31:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 10:35:15 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:35:15 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > Understand and agree with everything you said, except one item. I don't > have ANY experience with C#, only C++, so I am agreeing on principle > with your statements of learning curves. > > However, my exception is to the ; and _ issue. You have to put ; at the > end of each line, where as in VB, you only have to put _ at the end of a > line that you want to extend to the next physical line. The is just no > way, that you would end up typing more _ then you would type ;. > Personally, the only times I use an underscore is when I create a long > SQL string, something more then select x from y where z=1. Then I will > break it up into something more readable with _. But other than that, I > almost never 'extend' a line. From my POV, I just think that it's silly > that the compiler won't recognize a CRLF as the execution point, except > when it sees an underscore before it. > > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of > the ;, just find it annoying. > > Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:34:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:34:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Wrong, JC. I bitched about complex math formulas sprinkled with parens and curly brackets and braces too. I used them, but they didn't make me happy. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:37:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:37:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: One of the things I love about .Net. When you're trying to track something down in code, it's much simpler to find the region first and dig around in there, plus it's nice to be able to collapse regions you aren't using so you don't have to look at so much code. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 10:41:59 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:41:59 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:02:01 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:02:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><8786a4c01003151703o4b8fb622sc52453661ced4ff4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank goodness I'm in an IT department. I've always avoided those nasty developer/IT problems at work. Though on some of my side jobs, I've had to listen to other IT department 'demands'. I always just found them to be funny, sad, but funny. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 But one big difference is that the code isn't what the user uses! It's the compiled code and that is in CLR no matter what language you use to develop it. Thank goodness I don't have to pander to IT departments who know nothing about development but are convinced that one language is better than another!! Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of David McAfee Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:04 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I made the mistake of thinking that too, and unfortunately, I was wrong. C# is way more popular and sought after, at least in my neck of the woods. I've done some stuff in C#, and always make the mistake of "pumping" something out in VB.Net because I'm faster at it. I need to stop thinking that way. It's like when I started writing TSQL, breaking myself of the habit of using the GUI. I'm so glad I finally did! D _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 11:05:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:05:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:51:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 11:52:26 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:52:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:02:00 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually Gustav, you DO build system logic the way you speak and right. That's the entire purpose of a 'plain language coding method'. When you are given a task, you aren't told: 001101101001000110010100111000011010100100110111000110101011100001101100 10101010 If you are, you need to either put down the pipe, or move back to Earth...... Instead, you are told: When an Order's Total Value is less than $150, then we need to charge 15% shipping and handling, instead of 10%. In VB 6 (sorry, I know I'm behind on the VB curve...), that would be this, in the 'Order' Class: Property Get ShippingAndHandlingFee() As Currency If Me.TotalValue<$150 Then ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .15 Else ShippingAndHandlingFee=Me.TotalValue * .10 End If End Property Now, because of the 'plain language' ability of VB, anyone with a general understanding of Visual Basic would know immediately what is going on. More importantly, someone without even a hint of VB skill, could see that in the 'Order' Class, the Shipping and Handling 'Property' is 10% for orders 150 and up, and 15% for below 150. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:56 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Max > .. why (..) would anybody go for non-plain language coding? Because you don't build application logic the same way as you speak and write. But to you F# must smell like honey: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/fsharp/default.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Sharp_(programming_language) /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 12:10:37 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm Message-ID: I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:18:49 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:18:49 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mean the toolbox? It's only available when you have an object open in design view. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:11 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Formatting Toolbar is Disabled for WinForm I'm designing a Windows form. I displayed the formatting toolbar, but the toolbar is disabled. How do I fix this? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:25:39 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:25:39 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:26:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:26:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> True Drew! Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom in agreement with many of the Listers. At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those are "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that a language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent and machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that meets those objectives. If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage in a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not talking about specialist language but general mainstream ones). To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with a cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm probably going to make this a red letter day! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:30:33 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:30:33 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <030F5799F4244C629648CABD8DA6103B@Server> >Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName An example of Pennsylvanian dutch spelling perhaps? Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:51 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Guys, Drew, your code... class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } Hard to get more concise then that lol. I've been coding in various VB languages since VB3 and am now (after a few years) very comfortable with C#. I actually find doing maintenance in VB6 a real problem now. It's so slow to write code in the IDE. Typing the whole word, how odd...lol. As others have said, Foo and foo is very easy to distinguish in C#. Foo is a class, foo is a local instance of Foo. When you get used to it it makes good sense and actually makes your code more not less readable IMO. You just need to use a naming convention, preferably MS's. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0%28VS.71%29.aspx Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, 16 March 2010 8:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I hate to chime in here, cause I haven't done any serious development in about 2 years now. I still use VB 6, simply because I have so many tools that I have built for that, and I have so much code already written that it's not worth the effort to dig into anything new since I'm not doing it full time anyways. However, JWC posted a link from a "coder's" blog where he made a comment in one of his posts about having to deal with 'sloppy code' where he clarified that with 'other peoples code'. LOL. So dead on the mark. There are standards, none of which are universally applied. So pretty much every 'coder' out there thinks their code is the best written. But it makes sense, since code, in a way, is an artistic output, that we create, therefore the creator understands it the best. However, as a 'semi-retired' developer, back in the days, I dabbled in C++, php, even a little Java. And I always preferred VB 6, VBA and ASP. One of my hang-ups with the C style languages is the case sensitive parts. I remember having an argument with my sister years ago (about 9 years ago) about this very topic. It just makes no sense to me to have strtemp and strTemp represent two different values. No I googled, and found out that C# is still case sensitive. And one of the links had a vivid discussion about this. The C world pointed out that with case sensitivity, you could create a class called Foo, and then have an instance of the class called foo. Sure, great, wouldn't want to work on that code if my life depended on it. But then again, it's a style difference. And as Max just posted, there is all the structure nomenclature that, to me, just seems like just a hassle. Why do I need to put ; at the end of a line? Another issue I have had is that .Net requires much larger 'support' files. And when it first hit, there were versioning issues with them. I don't think this is much of an issue today, especially with the size of available media (hard drives, DVDs, etc) and the wide spread use of broadband. But I still like the simple 1.4 megs for VB6.... ;) Dan, specifically to your post, however, I had to look up the word laconic. I find that kind of odd to be used with C code: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Versus: Option Explicit Public SomeField as Integer Can you really say that the C version is really more concise? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2735 - Release Date: 03/15/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:35:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:35:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <003a01cac52d$b3f07180$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice. I know that you would not take offence. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:26 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan <<< snip >>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:41:38 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:41:38 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:43:56 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:43:56 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 LOL. It is amazing to me that everyone on this list never thinks a thing about using parenthesis to group mathematics for readability and to specify execution order and yet we have people bitching and moaning about a programming language that does the EXACT same thing! ;) (X + Y) * (z^2-3) Who in their right minds would WANT begin X+1 end * begin x^2 -3 end Which is the more readable? In the end it is all about comfort level. People (me included) don't want to have to take the time and effort to learn a new way. I am making the effort and I am happy I am, and it is a waste of time and breath to continue this conversation further. Do I really care whether Max (or anyone else) wants to do the same? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:51:34 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:51:34 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok Max, that is just getting a little snitty..... Using ; to execute a line, or _ to extend a line.... two sides of the same fence. Using Function, End function, or { }, again, two sides of the same fence. Now, there may be reasons why one side is better than the other. There are definitely reasons why personal taste, or situations would favor one side or the other, but to just sit on one side and say 'Your side is full of posers and intellectual snobs'....... that just goes against the 'code'... the nerd code. Now place your pocket protector on the ground, and stand back five feet. Take deep breathes and calm down. Are you ready to play with the other children now? Oops, should that be { {;} } Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:45 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > (X + Y) * (z^2-3) because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples and oranges. the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations but if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU and for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and pretend it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some curly brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe Public and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. When I sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it how to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I can do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What is it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and some compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the other, why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. Max _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 12:52:40 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:52:40 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <5C2AD2280C2F4CAF928DC507E4E5E089@Server> Message-ID: <003e01cac531$7a347cd0$6a01a8c0@nant> Nope, Max, good modern C# code's methods/properties/... have just a few code lines, with a few leading spaces for indentation... One can also use #region statement to hide parts of large classes (if any)... IOW, no need at all to "scroll 2 miles" up and down or left to right - and I'd also note that modern programmers do use Class Diagrams/Class View when coding - no need to scroll source code lines at all... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:35 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...and let us not forget that to read this code you have not only to scroll up and down repeatedly to see the construct of what is supposed to be going on, you have to scroll 2 miles to the right to find when the incredibly indented code ends. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 12:55:16 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:55:16 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:54:26 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:54:26 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant> <000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:57:20 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:57:20 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 12:59:33 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:59:33 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: I must admit that curly brackets affect me much as the Paradox script that used If..Then blocks with no End If. Harder than hell to figure out where one ended. With curly brackets littering the landscape and representing stuff that only C# family programmers may be able to interpret at a glance, I can't be bothered unless I really need to translate an example into equivalent VB. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:01:53 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:01:53 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <4B9EB3EB.3020205@colbyconsulting.com> <4B9FA533.7080500@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ooops, I meant 'at the end of each line for execution'. I realize that ; is basically saying 'execute', which is what a CRLF in VB is doing too. In fact, you can also put multiple 'executable' lines in a single line. (At least you can in other languages that use ;, like Javascript). Though I do agree that syntax is to the language like women are to sex. They're quirky, confusing, and will smack you down for the slightest goof, but really, it's no fun without them..... My question is something Max asked. What is the real reason to change then? You've listed two that I understand (though I'm not really in that world right now), available of learning resources, and client requests. Anything else? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:35 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 >You have to put ; at the end of each line Not true. Try to extend any syntactically valid line of code to one or more new lines. Break at any white space, as many times as you wish. At the very end of the "last" line make sure that you have a ; Compile. It will compile and run. > Just my opinion though. Not that I would never use C# or C++ because of the ;, just find it annoying. What I have discovered is that it helps to not "fight" any language, just accept the syntax and move on. There is waaaaaaay more important things in life than the ; at the end of a line of code, or a code block designated by curly brackets. I didn't invent the language (any of them), I am NEVER asked for my opinion (on any of them). Just accept the syntax of the language and move on. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 12:58:58 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life blood of learning. I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 13:05:45 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:05:45 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:29:44 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 13:40:24 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:40:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 13:44:43 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:44:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <4B9FAC58.6040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Ok, agree, agree, agree, huh? I never said that it shouldn't have a syntax. I said that I don't see how one method is easier, or clearer then another. (Admittedly, I'm really comparing C to VB, not C# to VB.Net.....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:06 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Drew, I don't make the rules, I learn the rules and I play by them The rules say that the compiler needs to be able to know where a block of code starts and stops in order to correctly execute the entire group. You have done this all of your programming life. If (Some condition) THEN (begins the block of code) Do something Do something else Do some third thing ELSE (ends that block of code Do some other thing so something else End else (ends the block of code) You have been telling the compiler where to start and stop blocks of code since you wrote your first line of code. Each language has its own syntax for doing that but it always exists, and it is not going away. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Drew Wutka wrote: > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 13:54:47 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:54:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 14:21:27 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:21:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> <1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> Message-ID: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:52:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant> <003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Anagnorisis? What's with the archaic words? I guess it's fitting in the defense of an archaic language... LOL Sorry, that was below the belt! BRIEF is only better sometimes....and really C isn't all that brief. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:42 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's good enough for me. Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down to get too? Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! ;) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Max :) Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - '{' and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and code blocks will become ambiguous... Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just IMO) using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) substitutes: - Namespace ... End Namespace - Module ... End Module - Class ... End Class - Sub ... End Sub - Function ... End Function - For ... Next - While ... End While - If .... Then ... End If - ... Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 14:54:26 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> <7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:56:52 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:56:52 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:57:24 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:57:24 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters> Message-ID: Aha, thanks. I seem to remember that in my brief foray, years ago, into VB.Net. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the 'region' when I started too, no.... LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? Pros? Cons? Thanks! Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 14:59:28 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:59:28 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><4B9F812C.2070202@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Aha.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 My response was in reference to his use of mathematical expressions as a justification of using brackets and implying that they were both optional. You yourself have debunked that myth and clearly demonstrated that brackets in (some) expressions are absolutely necessary. I also stated (below) that if the same applied to code languages then all code languages would use them. Clearly it doesn't and they don't. QED ROTL. I thank you. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max, slow down a bit. You do a lot of VBA. Do you do any VB.Net? That is what JWC is talking about. There are a lot of Begin/End statements. I nearly forgot about that, it has been a while since I played in there. So it is not as natural language friendly as VB 6 or VBA. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:12 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ROTL Won't make any difference. You are simply wrong! Live with it. Max On 16 March 2010 13:01, jwcolby wrote: > LOL, max your arguments are specious. > > Begin > VBA DOES USE THEM > End > > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Max Wanadoo wrote: > >> (X + Y) * (z^2-3) > > because mathematical expression have nothing to do with coding....apples > and > > oranges. > > > > the brackets are necessary to ensure mathematically correct calculations > but > > if curly brackets were neecessary for code they would be present in every > > code language - but they are not. Why? because they are there for YOU > and > > for no other reason. They are NOT necessary and we all know that VBA > > doesn't use them, neither do tons of other languages. > > > > When the compilers say back to contemplate writing a new compiler they > > clearly said "What can we do to make our C# language stand out and > pretend > > it is a cut above everybody elses's language? I know, lets stick some > curly > > brackets in there - that will take up at least half a page of white space > > and contribute nothing, but hey? It will confuse the life out of Joe > Public > > and we can make pretend that we are really intelligent" > > > > > > If that is your comfort zone then so be it. Just ask yourself this. > When I > > sit down and "learn" a new language, what am I actually learning? Is it > how > > to code? No, I can do that. Is it how to structure algorithms? No, I > can > > do that. Is it to learn how to structure data? No, I can do that. What > is > > it then? Does it compile down to something extra stupendous? Nay, it is > > just about another way of doing the same thing. If the langues doesn't > > bring any REAL advantage then why bother? Some languages are archaic and > > cumbersom, some are slick and neat and some compile to executables and > some > > compile to p-code. But if there is no real advantage of one over the > other, > > why bother and why waste your time, but most of all WHY PRETEND. > > > > Max > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:42 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:42 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:00:58 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:00:58 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: That might be dead on.... then again, I enjoy fiddling with my cars...the one I have now is the first I haven't fiddled with, and I've had it for months.... Guy thing, maybe? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a clutch every four years. As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the "helping hands". LOL Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just banter. With that said, how can you say: { Blah blah { blah blah ;} } Is easier then Blah blah ???? I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:05:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:12:32 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:12:32 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From pharold at cfl.rr.com Tue Mar 16 15:13:07 2010 From: pharold at cfl.rr.com (Perry Harold) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:13:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:23:37 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:23:37 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 15:24:47 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:24:47 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> <5B529C198B7A415AAEFA0CFBFA525A48@ptiorl.local> Message-ID: There's a neutral on all automatics, can coast with those too, people just don't, but I think this is getting a little off topic then we already were! LOL Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I'm with Charlotte. Drove a 79 Volare for about 200K miles with the same clutch. (That model was classified as one of the top 10 lemons of all time.) Currently on my 2nd PT Cruiser with nary a clutch problem. I prefer them because even in Florida I can coast between traffic lights and up to stop signs. Helps my mpg be 4-5 miles better than the rated mileage. Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > This is like the bound-unbound religious discussion. YMMV. My experience > has been otherwise and I have replaced exactly one clutch in my car in the > 12 years I've had it ... when the clutch plate broke from metal fatigue. > You've been driving the wrong cars, Drew! LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > It wasn't the best example. Needs a little more flushing out. > > For example, what you say about gas and brakes is true, for about 20 > years ago. The difference in fuel efficiency between the two nowadays > is marginal, and CVTs out perform anything in City driving, and will > advance even more as technology gets better. You wouldn't want to > operate a transmission with a thousand gears, which is why an automatic > 'CVT' will increase engine efficiency beyond the limited loss of the > controlling mechanism. Really, you can improve the fuel efficiency by > not getting A/C too...but who wants to do that? As for Brakes, my older > cars did wear out faster between automatic and manual. But in my newer > cars, brake life is majorly extended. Properly maintained brakes work > for quite sometime, and are VERY cheap an easy to replace. Clutches > aren't. I would rather replace my brakes every year, then replace a > clutch every four years. > > As for control....ummmm, other then it's easier to jump start your car, > that 'control' is an illusion. You are still making the car go > backwards or forwards, based on the gas you are giving it. Is there > some magic in having human control as to when you shift gears? > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte > Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I have to take exception to your transmission example, Drew. I've > driven an manual transmission for most of my life and only drive an > automatic under duress. It reduces wear on the brakes, saves gas and > gives me the fine control I want over the vehicle. I don't see that > curly brackets give any particular kind of control over anything. > They're a visual representation of something, but for readability, you > have to add all that wasted space or you can't make sense of the > "helping hands". LOL > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > First, let me reiterate that I'm no longer a developer, so this is just > banter. > > With that said, how can you say: > > { > Blah blah { blah blah ;} > } > > Is easier then > > Blah blah > > ???? > > I think this is like automatic vs. manual transmission. Granted, you > want to use a manual transmission in a race car, but do you really need > to use it in everyday life? The nomenclature of C is just giving the > illusion of control. Control over something that just isn't necessary > anymore.... sort like caring about whether a program takes up 1k versus > 4k. Doesn't it really matter anymore? > > Drew > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 15:41:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:41:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 15:48:10 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...apparently lots of improvements in VS2010 :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Dan Waters" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:00 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Max Wanadoo" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM > To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > >> >> Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... >> >> Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. >> >> I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol >> days >> that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing >> out >> thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the >> examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on >> earth >> would I want to go back to that?..." >> >> Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the >> part >> of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of >> code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. >> >> The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the >> non-compilation >> and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. >> >> I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the >> supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is >> a >> "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on >> that >> back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly >> reason >> why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net >> route >> with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he >> stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. >> Most >> programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and >> code >> examples are the life blood of learning. >> >> I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. >> >> >> Max >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> Hi Drew -- >> >> OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's >> good >> enough for me. >> >> Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil {^;^} >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, >> relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" >> >> The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. >> >> Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an >> End >> Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End >> Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now >> I'm >> looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, >> another >> {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that >> 3 >> or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers >> 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is >> indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End >> Function'? >> >> Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus >> it's >> the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for >> you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me >> a >> clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the >> end >> of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a >> procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? >> >> Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again >> did } >> just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down >> to >> get too? >> >> Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell >> me, >> 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know >> when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is >> missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting >> told, >> hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the >> language >> is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less >> ambiguous >> to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. >> >> Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! >> >> ;) >> >> Drew >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >> Salakhetdinov >> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM >> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS >> 2010 >> >> OK, Max :) >> >> Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do >> enhance >> code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as >> brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - >> '{' >> and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable >> (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and >> code >> blocks will become ambiguous... >> >> Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just >> IMO) >> using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise >> and >> as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... >> >> And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) >> substitutes: >> >> - Namespace ... End Namespace >> - Module ... End Module >> - Class ... End Class >> - Sub ... End Sub >> - Function ... End Function >> - For ... Next >> - While ... End While >> - If .... Then ... End If >> - ... >> >> >> Thank you. >> >> -- >> Shamil {^;^} >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 15:52:31 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> <000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 16 16:06:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:06:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant> <8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> Message-ID: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 16:27:58 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <0C730E13A7E44B34BCBD09EC29FB4D20@jislaptopdev> ...nice find William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Shamil Salakhetdinov" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:06 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... > > Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more > often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just > found it)?: > > http://langpop.com/ > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company > like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. > > I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and > new > programmers eventually become the only programmers. > > We'll see what happens! > > Thanks! > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>>> > No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very > intensively > used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation > system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... > > Look at "MONO" sources... > > No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to > use C# as you're only starting with .NET... > > With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than > anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features > (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all > that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then > they > will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but > will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... > > I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB > programmers? > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > To Everyone! > > This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where > the > two languages have the same functionality. > > So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only > as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. > > MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can > switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of > Visual > Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. > > What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding > where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will > do > is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as > possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're > not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 > years C# is going to be deprecated. > > Thanks! > Dan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do > in > C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to > stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, > so > it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you > can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a > lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the > language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and > possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for > "professional" > programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed > Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# > and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is > destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) > > LOL. > > I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't > using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, > and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you > didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be > completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. > > But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually > coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this > specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of > 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, > and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to > their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds > and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even > relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost > impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without > picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) > > So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' > grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little > more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In > the examples: > > class SomeClass > { > private int someField; > > public int SomeField > { > get { return SomeField; } > } > } > > Can be written as... > class SomeClass > { > public int SomeField { Get; } > } > > 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: > > Public SomeField as Integer > > No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a > simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) > * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make > anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the > function. > > Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. > > If Something Then > Do Something > Else > Do SomethingElse > End if > > Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. > > Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be > actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense > within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is > the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is > there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that > others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally > nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't > program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB > 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would > like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world > at all, right now!) > > Drew > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:07:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:07:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <30BCC27727E54DA082A8ABDB6BD89733@Server> > f course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) Oh dear, you sound like my (ex) wife(s). Always seeing fault where non-exists... Max Ps - I am definitely with you on Automatics. It is particulary relevant over here where traffic queues are everywhere. Where is the fun moving neutral-1st-neutral-1st-neutral-1st-woah-2nd-back to 1st. Let the auto gears take the strain. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:57 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Boy, I'm agreeing with Charlotte too! (of course, after I agreed with Max, he got a little snooty with his posts....) So just out of curiosity, what can you do in C# that you can't do in VB.Net and vice versa? What I have found with VB 6, is that there really isn't anything you can't do, you just can't do it a certain way. I have run into one issue a few months ago, where VB was just going to be WAY to complicated. Had to do with ftps. A secured FTP protocol that uses key encryption. It's possible to do it in VB, but it's a roll your own TCP/IP comms using that encryption, where as VB.Net has libraries to handle it. But things like inheritance are an internal difference, not an external. It allows for designing things in a different way, but the end result can be functionally the same. But I am curious, since when I have time, I'd like to be delving into both of these languages.... Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:12:13 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:12:13 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <515E9ADEF83D4C7EB8EA1B64FD9BA930@Server> >I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing Neither am I. This is correct Drew (snuggling up again)... I just thing that they are so unnecessary and clutter the screen when what I was to see if the code, not pretty curlers. I have seen programmers put Tabs chars of 4 or even 6 so the code can indent. Huh, 2 is quite sufficient thank you and 1 will do. I can see an indent without being smacking in the face with it. Horses for courses. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:14:54 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:14:54 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant><31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters><001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant><891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server><7297CF3168E04A1CB326CC386B26BE42@Server> Message-ID: Indeed and very similar. On the way, I went the Foxbase and Foxpro route when I moved from Ashton Tate and then, when MS acquired Fox, I moved to Access with its much aclaimed Rushmore Jet technology. Fluffery is spot on. What it compiles down to is what matters. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Perry Harold Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Max The only reason I switched from Quick Basic (to either VB3 or VB4 I think) was that everyone decided they had to have "pretty" forms on the screen because that's the way MS products had it. Having a list of options and choosing one had worked just fine for years. Green lines on black - worked quickly and simply. No overhead for graphics. Used DB3 or DB4 (don't remember version) databases and everything got done that was needed. Actually started with AlphBasic from Alpha Micro but that went by the wayside when the AM died and we changed to PCs. All the inner workings were the same so going to Quick Basic wasn't too painful. Fortunately moving to VB from QB wasn't quite so bad except for adding in all the fluff of visual components. On top of that I've been lucky enough to work for the same company for 30+ years. Don't need the extra "languages" for the resume. VB also handles everything that my home side business requires. Then MS needed more revenue strings and new "languages" came down the pipe. Each required a new learning curve. It seems the main argument I hear for moving to C++ or C# is for a resume's sake not because it's better or not. Mostly just because it's the current buzzword of programming. .Net '2015' may have a "new and improved" coding language. Once again it will be hyped as the end all of programming because we all know that M$ needs the money. As long as the OS doesn't keep what works from working, in the long run it doesn't make any difference in what "language" it was written. Until we can speak to the machine in both Queen's English and Americanese with simple requests and let it do all the underlining, curly bracketing or whatever it needs why rock the boat. Isn't it great to get older and to the point where you don't care about unimportant fluffery any more? Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Wanadoo" To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > True Drew! > > Also some of the other guys on here...amazing...First for me...I am seldom > in agreement with many of the Listers. > > At the end of the day, a "language" is a way for me to write "code" to > implement the decisions made using "my PDL examples" which are designed to > implement the agreed "flow" of the "algorithm" in support of the "data > structures". (My PDL guru was Dijkstra BTW) > > Which language I choose is determined by many factors but amongst those > are > "ease of use and learning" and "readability and mainenance". > > Within the concepts of a "general programming language" and assuming that > a > language does what is necessary and outputs the results in a consistent > and > machine-implementable way (IOW cet par) then I will opt for the one that > meets those objectives. > > If it could be shown (to me) that one language had a definitive advantage > in > a meaningful way over another language then I would go for it. (Not > talking > about specialist language but general mainstream ones). > > To go for the latest "fad of the day" because it has nice curly hair with > a > cute kiss-curl over one eye and which can be likened to "helping hands" to > comfort and embrace falls somewhat short of reasoned argument. > > I will stick with VBA and Powerbasic to meet my current needs and hey, > guess what, short learning curve = more productivity! > > Max > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:52 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Max, you and I are rarely in such close proximity of agreement, I'm > probably > going to make this a red letter day! ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:24 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the > sky is leaning down to help you. > > Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like > it. > > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and > related > programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - > > - left - > > { > > and > > - right - > > } > > :) > > If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never > look > back... > > I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I > have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. > in > many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Shamil, > > Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are > weird and off putting! > > I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things > being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Dan -- > > <<< > ...because it's easier to read... >>>> > Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code > for > a (beginner) programmer?: > > string line = "test"; > > or > > dim line as string = "test" > > IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value > equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: > > string line = "test"; > > but not to a VB.NET one... > > And there could be found many samples like that one above, more > complicated > samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# > coding > and algorithmic specifications... > > IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more > straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" > programming language over time... > > Thank you :) > > -- > Shamil > > <<>> > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI > Proprietary > and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material > in > its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon > this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient > is > prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:20:31 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:20:31 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <11F3C72A8FDA40BFAF6F13D1C0CB853C@Server> I am with you William. For me, the biggest help in coding is the Indenter which keeps all my ducks lined up and I can see quickly when my END is missing. Sometimes, I am really good, I put the For and Next in before the stuff in the middle. Doesn't happen too often as I am not that disciplined but the Indenter sorts it for me. I would love to be able to collapse and expand code based on For/Next/While/Wend etc. That would be neat. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on > spewing out thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I > looked at the examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and > say "..why on earth would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the > part of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the > borders of code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation > of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it > is a "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I > started on that back in Borland days. That went by the board. There > is no earthly reason why I would need to do the C#.net route in > preference to the VBA.net route with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one > put forward by William where he stated, inter alia, that there was > MORE code examples for plagarism. Most programmers rely upon examples > of others to learn and move forward and code examples are the life > blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, > clear, relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see > an End Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking > for End Function to be on the last line of the function. With a > {....him, now I'm looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a > { first...wait, another {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and > oops, another {, crap, is that 3 or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. > Or, I could trust the programmers 'perfect ' indentation to verify > that the brackets are good...... So is indentation and faith really > less ambiguous then finding the first 'End Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this > term for you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how > does } give me a clear indication of what just happened? End If tells > me I just hit the end of a logical statement. End Function tells me I > just hit the end of a procedure...... What did } tell me that I just > ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again > did } just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've > scrolled down to get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will > tell me, 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a > }? I know when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting > told that a ) is missing is like finding a needle in a haystack > sometimes. But getting told, hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH > easier to find, because the language is providing a MORE accurate > relevance, which is clearer, and less ambiguous to a human eye/brain, > then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do > enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, > accurate and as brief as possible - all using just two generic > (helping hands) symbols - '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO > just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise > and as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:23:48 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:23:48 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: <1A4874BDA8BD43359C6CE6227DCB6F25@Server> This is so true, I am working with Serif Webplus X4 which is really, really cool. CMS (content management systems) the lot. Forums, Facebook, all that sort of stuff all there for you at a few clicks if you want it. We are moving into a new realm. The whole shebang about ?40. Once again, spot on Drew (snuggle) Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Just wanted to throw something else into this discussion. We've debated a lot of things, but the irony is that we will all be outdated eventually in our paradigm of programming. If you don't have an inkling of what I am talking about, you have never encountered a 'modern' 'web programmer'. Their use of the word 'programmer' or 'developer' would be laughable to any of us on this list no matter what our personal prejudices are. Web development has gone through many changes, from plain old HTML, to server side scripts to a multitude of client side scripting/process languages. To truly understand all of them at a code line level is beyond a daunting task. For example, I can write HTML and asp in my sleep. I can fuddle through php, and I'm actually not too bad at javascript. VBScript is like walking, but it's got a VERY limited use since it requires IE as a browser. To deal with such a broad range (Java, Flash, Shockwave, etc.) of tools/languages, there are more and more 'tools' out there which have taken programming from .... Hmmm, I'd say the best way to explain would be to compare an old PC, with a very basic BIOS and DOS, to a brand new PC with Windows 7. Heck, the modern BIOSes are coming with mouse interfaces...MOUSE INTERFACES for pete's sake! But these tools allow someone that would stare blankly at a few lines of code, to whip up database backend systems on a webserver, with fancy pictures, buttons, functions, etc, with no more complicated knowledge then knowing how to spell d a t a b a s e. It's way more art and color coordination then actual development. Granted, right now these tools are way more generic then is necessary for a customized applications. But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. Drew The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Tue Mar 16 17:27:13 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:27:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> <000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 17:34:14 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:34:14 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Tue Mar 16 17:47:43 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:47:43 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><4B9F7796.5070405@colbyconsulting.com><000901cac545$0400d860$6a01a8c0@nant><8735FD42195448C0B99BDD13214A0692@danwaters> <000b01cac54c$9ad83f10$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <261B9616BB3D4282BA18D8434BB3364A@danwaters> I see a slightly higher usage rate for C# over Visual Basic. Remember though, all that data is now invalid because that was based on when the two languages had different features. With that in mind, you would expect one of them to be more preferred than the other. But with VS 2010, it's a new game. Neither language does more or less than the other. And that's the basis of all my comments today. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 4:07 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 OK, Dan, let's hope we will see what happens... Still, I can't get why do you suppose that "new programmers will now more often use VB.NET" - have you seen stats like the following (I have just found it)?: http://langpop.com/ Thank you. -- Shamil {^;^} -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Whatever investments have been made in the past are sunk costs. A company like MS will only use future costs/profits to make their decisions. I do believe that new programmers will now more often choose VB.Net, and new programmers eventually become the only programmers. We'll see what happens! Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ... So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated... >>> No, IMO they can depreciate VB.Net but not C# - AFAIK C# is very intensively used inside MS, also they have a whole new "state of the art operation system" - "Singularity"(?) - developed using C# etc. ... Look at "MONO" sources... No way to have C# depreciated IMO - BTW this is why I do recommend you to use C# as you're only starting with .NET... With Bill Gates retired VB(.NET() support is more an "inertia" there than anything else - when C# and VB.NET will get the same set of features (VS2010?) then it will be a waste of resources to support both(look at all that huge amount of technical books - C# and VB.Net versions), and then they will make a tool to generate C# code sources from VB.NET code sources but will depreciate usage of VB.NET compiler - in VS2014(?)... I can be wrong but how many times they did already "play bad" with VB programmers? Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:40 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 To Everyone! This entire discussion is only meant to apply to VS 2010 (and up), where the two languages have the same functionality. So, how long will MS put up with supporting two identical languages? Only as long as they think they need to. One will eventually be deprecated. MS isn't worried about any existing experienced programmers - they can switch from one to the other easily enough, and they won't bug out of Visual Studio altogether over moving to one language or the other. What MS is concerned about are relatively new programmers who are deciding where to program - Apple? VS? Java? Linux? Something Else? What MS will do is set up their premier programming platform (VS) to be as appealing as possible to new programmers. C# is just less appealing than VB, if you're not already experienced in one or the other. So I predict that in 3 - 5 years C# is going to be deprecated. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:54 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In the current versions (2005 and 2008), there are some things you can do in C# that you can't do in VB, but not many. Of course, there's nothing to stop you from using, say, a J# dll to harness the power of THAT dialect, so it isn't an overwhelming advantage. There are things you can do in VB you can't in C# too. In the next version, that becomes history. There's a lemming trend that seems to happen with languages: the more esoteric the language, the more "professional". If any fool can read the code and possibly make sense of it, it can't be a "real" language for "professional" programmers. Weren't you aware of that?? Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:44 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion, don't leave yet. I installed Visual Studio 2008 months ago, cause some day I'm going to dig into C# and VB.Net when I have time! (that very well might be after the world is destroyed in 2012, but hey, here's hoping I get to it!) LOL. I would like to point out that your example (X + Y) * (Z^2-3) isn't using parenthesis for 'readability'. You have addition in the first, and subtraction in the last, and multiplication in between, if you didn't have parenthesis in your statement, the function would be completely different. Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. But you bring up a good point, about mathematics and coding. Usually coders are good at math. Now don't take this the wrong way, cause this specifically isn't pointed at you, but in my experience, a lot of 'developers' are actually database people that have picked up coding, and coders are usually only using a database to store data relevant to their code. It's rare to find people that delve into multiple worlds and have them come out with compartmentalized understanding, or even relational understanding between the various worlds. But it's almost impossible to have people learn another sphere of learning without picking up some 'quirks' from the learning source! ;) So as to your statement about brackets 'simplifying' grouping/readability, I think that needs to be substantiated a little more. In the C world, which has it's own structure, it makes sense. In the examples: class SomeClass { private int someField; public int SomeField { get { return SomeField; } } } Can be written as... class SomeClass { public int SomeField { Get; } } 3 groups in one, 2 in another. In VB: Public SomeField as Integer No grouping at all, but it's only one property, in what could be a simple class. In your example, (X + Y) * (Z^2-3), what good does (X + Y) * ((Z^2)-3) do? It doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't make anything more or less readable. In fact, it is just lengthening the function. Moreover, both languages are commonly indented in groupings. If Something Then Do Something Else Do SomethingElse End if Brackets in the indentations are just overkill. Now, seriously, I can't believe you find {} and case sensitivity to be actual attractions to C#. I can understand that it may make sense within the C# paradigm, couldn't argue that if I wanted too! What is the pull to C#, other than more googable source and client requests. Is there any aspects of the language where you can truly do something that others can't? (From my personal perspective, there is functionally nothing I can't do in VB, that you can do in anything else. I don't program for OSes other then Windows, and many of the 'limitations' of VB 6, such as multi-threaded or NT services, I can actually do. I would like true inheritance, so that is my only real pull into the .Net world at all, right now!) Drew _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:25:38 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:25:38 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but again, it was years ago. I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API calls from other languages and using them in VB. As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I think. So that's simply a personal preference. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 16 19:26:07 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:26:07 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server> <866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: Gone in 2003 forward. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:01 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In VS 2010 I'm using Regions in VB.Net. That trade-off is gone. Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process it became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I stopped translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and then it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is basically where I am today. ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its any less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample code is available in it. ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask which they should learn. ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the vb world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are not nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once you get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. William p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have to pass that one on to Pamela ;) -------------------------------------------------- From: "Max Wanadoo" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:58 PM To: "'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.'" Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > Hang on, there is a word I have never heard before....anagnorisis... > > Hmm, cool word. I will try to remember that. > > I have to say that I do agree with him. I can recall back in the Cobol > days > that if you had an error early on, the compile gaily marched on spewing > out > thousands of cascading "false-positive" errors. When I looked at the > examples on that NetCobol you posted I had to smile and say "..why on > earth > would I want to go back to that?..." > > Drews analogy is pretty accurate from what I can see, particulary the part > of about the curly braces emcompassing (and thus defining) the borders of > code-structure. But what structure? All curly braces look alike. > > The VBA compiler stops with a very-near exact reason for the > non-compilation > and, in most case - not all, a reasonable explanation of why. > > I am not agueing against C# or any other language but rather in the > supposition being put forward directly and indirectly that somehow it is a > "better" platform for implementing code. Remember Pascal - I started on > that > back in Borland days. That went by the board. There is no earthly reason > why I would need to do the C#.net route in preference to the VBA.net route > with ONE EXCEPTION and that is the one put forward by William where he > stated, inter alia, that there was MORE code examples for plagarism. Most > programmers rely upon examples of others to learn and move forward and > code > examples are the life blood of learning. > > I would be interested to see how Charlotte responds. > > > Max > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:42 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > Hi Drew -- > > OK. Even if "the only 'accurate' part on my statement is BRIEF" that's > good > enough for me. > > Max and Charlotte, do you agree with that Drew's anagnorisis ? :) > > Thank you. > > --Shamil {^;^} > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > " curly brackets do enhance code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, > relevant, accurate and as brief as possible" > > The only 'accurate' part of that statement, Shamil, is BRIEF. > > Unabmiguous.... Nope, If I write Function TestProcess(), I better see an > End > Function. Not End If, End Loop, End Sub, I know I am looking for End > Function to be on the last line of the function. With a {....him, now I'm > looking for a }, hey there's one...oh wait, I hit a { first...wait, > another > {, and another, okay, and here's a }, and oops, another {, crap, is that 3 > or 4 {'s, darn, need to go back up. Or, I could trust the programmers > 'perfect ' indentation to verify that the brackets are good...... So is > indentation and faith really less ambiguous then finding the first 'End > Function'? > > Clear ... Hmmmmm, that pretty much is the opposite of ambiguous, thus > it's > the same as unambiguous. But I'll smack some more logic on this term for > you...after scrolling through a page of code, exactly how does } give me a > clear indication of what just happened? End If tells me I just hit the > end > of a logical statement. End Function tells me I just hit the end of a > procedure...... What did } tell me that I just ended? > > Relevent ... Hmmm, spilled into this one with Clear..... what again did } > just end? How is it relevant at the bottom of a page I've scrolled down > to > get too? > > Accurate ... Really? Odd, if I miss an End if, the compiler will tell > me, > 'Missing End If', does a C compiler tell you you're missing a }? I know > when I'm writing SQL with a slew of parenthesis, getting told that a ) is > missing is like finding a needle in a haystack sometimes. But getting > told, > hey, you're missing an End if....MUCH easier to find, because the language > is providing a MORE accurate relevance, which is clearer, and less > ambiguous > to a human eye/brain, then symbols with tribal meaning. > > Man, I could do this all day! And to think I rarely post on this list! > > ;) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:02 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > OK, Max :) > > Not trying to convince you (:)) just noting that curly brackets do enhance > code readability, make it unambiguous, clear, relevant, accurate and as > brief as possible - all using just two generic (helping hands) symbols - > '{' > and '}' . And in most of the cases curly brackets are inalienable > (indefeasible, integral, essential) part of the code - remove them and > code > blocks will become ambiguous... > > Programming languages do come from mathematics, and therefore (IMO just > IMO) > using special symbols to keep a programming language syntax as concise and > as unambiguous as possible is a good and productive idea... > > And in VB(A)(.NET) one have to use the whole set of (natural language) > substitutes: > > - Namespace ... End Namespace > - Module ... End Module > - Class ... End Class > - Sub ... End Sub > - Function ... End Function > - For ... Next > - While ... End While > - If .... Then ... End If > - ... > > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil {^;^} > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com Tue Mar 16 20:56:18 2010 From: wdhindman at dejpolsystems.com (William Hindman) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:56:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev> Message-ID: ...slaps head, grits teeth, sighs ...thanks for telling me ...now :) William -------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlotte Foust" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:25 PM To: "Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues." Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > Regions are part of .Net, VB or any other language. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:06 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > I could have sworn that VB.Net had collapsible regions too.... but > again, it was years ago. > > I hear you on the code examples. First starting in VB, I did just as > much as everyone else. However, as time went on, the only real examples > I ever looked for were API examples (like which arguments to use for > what). Got pretty good and understanding the intricacies of taking API > calls from other languages and using them in VB. > > As for the bracket issue, I'm really not saying that brackets are > difficult or even confusing. I've actually done several things in php, > and even more in javascript. I find them a nuisance, but that's about > it, simply because I just find the VB method more intuitive to how I > think. So that's simply a personal preference. > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William > Hindman > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:21 PM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS > 2010 > > ...not just MORE code examples, Max ...a whole lot more ...it was so bad > > when I was first learning .Net that I was forced to decipher numerous C# > > samples (thank god for the free web translators) ...and in the process > it > became evident that although the syntax was different, it wasn't THAT > different ...and then it dawned on me that I could intermix vb.net with > c#.net in the same project and VS didn't care ...so much so that I > stopped > translating and started just using C# when that was what I had ...and > then > it became rote to do some things in C# and others in vb.net ...which is > basically where I am today. > > ...I use whatever is most productive for me ...if I knew then what I > know > now, I'd have never wasted a minute learning vb.net ...not because its > any > less capable than C#, but because its in much wider use among those > producing the type of code I need and therefore much, much more sample > code > is available in it. > > ...that is the reason you find me saying C# when people new to net ask > which > they should learn. > > ...I don't like the brackets any better than anyone else coming from the > vb > world ...but I love regions ...it's a trade off ...and the brackets are > not > nearly as hard to read as you, Charlotte, and Drew are positing ...once > you > get past the short learning curve, they're second nature. > > William > p.s. ...anagnorisis IS a cool word ...had to look it up as well ...have > to > pass that one on to Pamela ;) > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the > person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI > Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact > the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic > or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, > dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information > by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Tue Mar 16 21:12:33 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:12:33 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , Message-ID: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 16 21:57:09 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:57:09 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA04505.8060009@colbyconsulting.com> Why, isn't that Begin Grin g End Grin ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Stuart McLachlan wrote: > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:37:36 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <4B9EB0F0.10524.D91853C@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: No, Stuart I did mean CLI (Common Language Infrastructure). You might also find the following link interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI_languages Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 I think you meant CRT (Common RunTime), not CLI (COmmand Line Interface?) -- Stuart On 15 Mar 2010 at 13:06, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance > gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what > ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? > > ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always > code translators. Here is a link to one of many: > http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a > good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > > http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx > > This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality > differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. > For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the > preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's > easier to read. > > Dan > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:51:57 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:51:57 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com> <63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server> Message-ID: <509DF0D44A54489EAE5BB149BBA95966@creativesystemdesigns.com> I have been caught many times with such simple errors and that is just with VB/VBA. On the other hand with the syntax checker in the frame work of your choice, can catch most anything. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:53 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Except for one thing Jim, Where you program in, say C# where strTemp is different to StrTemp and is diffent again to strtemp etc, there is tons of scope for errors, but in logic and in implementation. Remember the ADA fiasco some years back on the Appollo flights (I think it was) where a trailing ; was omitted? The spacecraft is still orbiting somewhere over norther Nebraska. Stick with the language which obviates these sort of errors. Simple pure text in English. Forget curly braces and obscurity of "the chosen word". KISS and keep it correct, readable, maintainable (even if not documented). Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:07 PM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Your language choice has simply become irrelevant. There is no performance gain or AFAIK feature gain from what ever CLI language you choose... so what ever works is my motto...and if you are running your own business who cares? ..and if a client wants to see one code type over the other there are always code translators. Here is a link to one of many: http://www.carlosag.net/Tools/CodeTranslator I make no claim that it does a good job but neither does VS and apps like DNN but it compiles so who cares? Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 6:35 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 http://blogs.msdn.com/scottwil/archive/2010/03/09/vb-and-c-coevolution.aspx This is pretty good info - I think. It looks like the functionality differences between the two languages from now on will be inconsequential. For that reason, I'm going to predict that over time VB.Net will become the preferred language - just because it's easier to start with because it's easier to read. Dan _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 23:57:42 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:57:42 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <31DE9AF6CD484ADA91E255FA3B4AC418@danwaters> <001e01cac4d3$2941eb90$6a01a8c0@nant> <891B12DF01F743F1A2D2AED0F75E5598@Server> Message-ID: <4B9BC100C678430391C44118001307EA@creativesystemdesigns.com> You are making me laugh... Max. I never thought I would find programming so humorous. ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:24 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yeah, but only if you are a dim wit and think that the great being in the sky is leaning down to help you. Two helping hands to deliver you into obscurity and confusion more like it. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:38 AM To: dwaters at usinternet.com; 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- You can imagine curly braces as being two open helping hands - - left - { and - right - } :) If you're only starting using VB.NET then try C# instead - you'll never look back... I have been programming fluently on VB(A) for 10+ years (and before that I have used (macro) Assemblers, FORTRAN, PL/1, COBOL, PASCAL, C/C++ etc. in many projects) - VB(A) and VB.NET look so "weird" for me now... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:45 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Shamil, Well - I'm just getting started with VB. I think those curly braces are weird and off putting! I do believe that VB.Net will be preferred over time - all other things being equal the easy path is the one more trodden! Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:52 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Dan -- <<< ...because it's easier to read... >>> Well what of the following code lines is easier to read/understand/code for a (beginner) programmer?: string line = "test"; or dim line as string = "test" IMO (just IMO) defining a string variable named 'line' with initial value equal to "test" is directly translated to C#'s code line: string line = "test"; but not to a VB.NET one... And there could be found many samples like that one above, more complicated samples, which will highlight "one-to-one" correspondence between C# coding and algorithmic specifications... IMO (just IMO, I'm not trying to start a discussion here) C# is more straightforward and laconic, and is expected to become "preferred" programming language over time... Thank you :) -- Shamil <<>> _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Mar 17 00:40:10 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:40:10 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <002101cac481$6301d450$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582D8E@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: I programmed for a number of years in the best programming language I have ever seen. It had the tightest code with the smallest number of Operands. It compiled code into very small fast executables. When you finished a code group you just put down a period... now that is simple. The language was called Clarion and I am sure few have heard of it but I wrote a number of excellent applications with the product. I have not used it for many years and doubt whether it even exists now. Times move on... all languages fade and disappear but there are always new great languages coming along. (Except C which is such a dumb language that it does not even check its variable types... if you hear of a stack-overflow rest assured someone has been programming in C again.) I think the .Net frame work is great because it has so many flavours. If you get bored with one flavour just pick another. I have a friend who is raving about Eiffel.Net?? (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms973898.aspx) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:51 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 You don't have to type the whole word! Ctrl-Space, will autofill anything VB will recognize.... Ya know, if I went up to the person on the street, and said, spell 'hoop', and they wrote 'Hoop', I wouldn't go, NO, 'hoop'. The entire argument about case sensitivity really boils down to a generation gap, between old case sensitive languages, and newer non-sensitive ones. It's that simple. The true reason for case sensitivity is a moot point. It's no longer necessary. What has kept it alive, is the 'conformity' to it, not the necessity for it. You statement that it's part of a naming convention is counter-intuitive when it comes to programming. A naming convention is designed so that code is INHERENTLY more readable from one programmer to another. It should NOT be a requirement to understand a naming convention to be able to read the code in the first place! The original reasons for case sensitive were space and time. There were limited spaces in a line, and for a compiler to figure out the difference in ascii between A and a took more compiling time. Neither of these is an issue today, nor have they been for quite some time (in fact, for as long as I've been programming!). So when you were pressed for space in an 80 character line, allowing x and X to represent two different variables made life easier for the programmer. And saving a few cycles while compiling also saved time, precious time, because when you were limited in line space, you also didn't have Ghz processors, let alone Mhz or even Khz. The irony, is that programming is logic at its best. The spoken/written languages of humanity defies logic in many ways. 'She's Phat!' (pronounced 'fat') would sound like an insult to the uninitiated, but for people that pay attention to trends, they would understand that Phat means Pretty hot and tempting. I before E, except after C, with x number of exceptions. Throw Papa down the stairs his shoes. (An example of Pennsylvanian dutch). Yet a world of 1's and 0's is logical heaven! There was logic in the origins of case sensitivity, now we are stuck with a habit, instead of logic. In fact, case sensitivity flies in the face of logic, on the simple fact that a programming language's primary intent is to provide a bridge between machine language and human language. If I were to tell you 'Bob and I went to the store, and then bob and I went to a restaurant, and that Restaurant is Denny's.' Logic would say that I went to Denny's and a store with a guy named Bob. However, with the 'naming convention' that is being applied to today's C descendant, I could be saying that I went to the store with one guy, then went to a restaurant with another guy, and that a restaurant that I might be pointing too is named Denny's. With modern programming languages, we have the ability to write code like this: Dim int7DaysFromNow As Date = Date()+7 If SomeOtherDate>int7DaysFromNow Then RunAFunctionWithADescritpiveName Yet constrictions of the past want to muck up the wave of the future with long learned habits, instead of newer, and better logic. I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator, I am a Network Administrator Ah..... SNMP protocols and Active Directory... back to the world of logic I go! Drew From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:34:19 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:34:19 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:39:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:39:47 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 01:53:09 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:53:09 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <002901cac59e$82660870$6a01a8c0@nant> Forgot to post the link on MS Singularity OS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_%28operating_system%29 --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 9:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 02:55:10 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:55:10 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] The Last One In-Reply-To: <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002701cac59b$e08a6750$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <16FA5A36341A432994174DEF2C5A5710@Server> Thank you so much for that link, Shamil. I can remember reading and following this saga as it unravelled in my life time courtesy of PCW which was required reading for me in those days. Oh, happy memories. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Yes, I remember AI, then Expert Systems, and Last One (http://www.tebbo.com/presshere/html/wf8104.htm )... Funny... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Max Wanadoo Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:34 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 > In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built) And who here remebers The Last One (TLO) back in the 80's ? Never program again, just answer prompts and it would create the program for you. Huh, it was even supposed to run on the Osborne. Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:27 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 03:55:27 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:55:27 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Backups and the art of Zen In-Reply-To: <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B995361.6050400@colbyconsulting.com> <2112B64808434B359B4EED4F9DCB9272@Server> <29f585dd1003111242l44de6c4docaeb306a5e3d0d2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Me Too Arthur, I also spent time (1-2 days) a year or two ago automating and shipping backups to another server, Since I started using RedGate Backup, I just love it. But I love RedGate SQL Prompt even more. Having said that, I could not currently work without Redgate Compare and Redgate Data Compare. They have saved me days and days of time. Mark On 11 March 2010 20:42, Arthur Fuller wrote: > I cannot think of a freebie but I swear by Red Gate's SQL Backup. It is > awesome. > > Arthur > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From marklbreen at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 04:01:18 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:01:18 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> References: <75DB2FBF9AC24FF1B06B88AA9C0FCCFD@jislaptopdev> <4B9BD4E2.8080306@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark On 13 March 2010 18:09, jwcolby wrote: > LOL. > > I do like the fact that the project is sitting on my server and the working > copy on my laptop. If > anything goes wrong, the laptop is stolen etc, I can just go back to the > server to get a fresh copy. > I have wanted to do this for a long time. > > The obvious next question is... Access? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > William Hindman wrote: > > "if you are a little confused" > > > > ...jc? ...nnnnoooooooooo > > > > William > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Gustav Brock" > > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:07 AM > > To: > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] VisualVSN > > > >> Hi John > >> > >> Yes. However, if you are working on more than one machine, the situation > >> may happen if you are a little confused. > >> > >> /gustav > >> > >> > >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 16:59 >>> > >> Well, I don't have any red (yet). You mentioned red didn't you? > >> > >> I assume conflicts would be between checked out versions in two > different > >> machines, and so far it is just me. > >> > >> John W. Colby > >> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >> > >> > >> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>> Hi John > >>> > >>> So now you are a lucky man! > >>> Red indicates conflicts or errors. > >>> > >>> /gustav > >>> > >>> > >>>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 13-03-2010 12:48 >>> > >>> And they are. Green unless edited, yellow if edited. Red if new I > >>> assume. > >>> > >>> John W. Colby > >>> www.ColbyConsulting.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Gustav Brock wrote: > >>>> Hi John > >>>> > >>>> If your files (file names) now are marked with tiny red or green etc. > >>>> bullets which change when you edit and commit, that should be it. > >>>> > >>>> /gustav > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dba-VB mailing list > >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 04:21:08 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:21:08 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN Message-ID: Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-studio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 08:52:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:52:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:28:04 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:28:04 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one ways to do this. But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in subject. 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a specified Top Level Folder. 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment and work on it. 5. The application will then email the results back to him. Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and then do the same without the excel s/sheet. Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the rule. Many ways Now tell me you don't use outlook!! Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 09:34:21 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:21 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001201cac5de$f0584a10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I suppose you can make a Web Service with two methods: - first one to upload a spreadsheet with zips, and start your "machination" running as a Windows Service; - second one to query for results; Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:53 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 09:49:19 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:49:19 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From DWUTKA at Marlow.com Wed Mar 17 09:57:19 2010 From: DWUTKA at Marlow.com (Drew Wutka) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 In-Reply-To: <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <2C898FA0D4C24B889E1189A7601C45CC@creativesystemdesigns.com><63B7E6C77F6E490595A001A301F7D62B@Server><001f01cac4d4$bfe44740$6a01a8c0@nant><7A0437F2E93D4D99BB6DD7929EC23EF0@Server><000601cac4f8$80c57c40$6a01a8c0@nant><000301cac500$7a102230$6a01a8c0@nant><003b01cac52f$ef6d4150$6a01a8c0@nant><1F130B98B5B14B4EB4AF6D79A967D49B@Server><866EFC9E35264F5A9D62AE94546A60E9@jislaptopdev><000a01cac549$02f0a410$6a01a8c0@nant> <002801cac59c$a4196c20$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Nice link! I liked this line: "In the same manner, we will experience dramatic progress over the coming decades, but it won't feel as dramatic while we are actually experiencing it." The old frog in boiling water scenario. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:40 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Hi Drew -- <<< To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. >>> Yes, but the point is that the new tasks to be programmed "old way" do appear with higher speed... I do not believe in AI per se - I do believe that Singularity may happen (http://www.nesteduniverse.net/2007/11/what-is-the-sin.html) - it's happening nowadays in fact. But for me Singularity somehow doesn't exclude the need in "good old programmers" :) I can be wrong... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} P.S. BTW, here is the link on the brief information on MS "Singularity" experimental operation system I mentioned previously: "Objects + Messages = Operating System" - the sources (mainly on Sing# - a C# dialect) are available on CodePlex they say... -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:27 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 Thanks for the article! That was a great read. But Shamil, NEVER say never. To begin with, the authors statement said it wouldn't happen in 10 year, and it didn't. He said that in '86, and it certainly didn't happen by '96. It's now almost 15 years after that mark. To begin with, many tasks which would have required a programmer, have gotten to a point where a user can point and click for what they want. Next, you are completely ignoring any progress made with AI. In essence, AI is self programmable (once it's built). You never know what was around the corner. My main point, however, is that a lot of what I've seen people like our list members do, is being slowly replaced by newer technology. There is a curve up, stating it'll never reach a certain point is not a mathematical certainty. Drew -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:41 PM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Recent Discussion from MS on VB.Net and C# in VS 2010 <<< But the move to making point and click development tools is not too far in the distant future. >>> No, Drew, no way (if by the above statement you mean mainstream professional software development): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet Software development tools do evolve but the complexity of the tasks to be solved by the modern software does evolve quicker - that promise to be never ending "hunting one own tail story" - the more advanced development tools we get the more complicated programming tasks we will have to solve... Thank you. --Shamil {^;^} _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 09:59:18 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:59:18 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <4B05D9C61D9145149A1D1C7B554A97C0@Server> Message-ID: <4BA0EE46.3030107@colbyconsulting.com> Max, Actually I don't use outlook, though I know how to automate it in VBA (Access). But I am doing this in C# or .Net. Thanks for the suggestion. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Max Wanadoo wrote: > John, you are going to get lots of different ways to solve this. > > My "restrictions" are pretty much like yours but there are a million and one > ways to do this. > > But, keeping in lean and mean, I would do this: > > 1. Get him to Email the zips as excel attachment and specific words in > subject. > 2. Create a RULE in Outlook that looks for these words and moves it to a > specified Top Level Folder. > 3. Have the rule then open an Access application. > 4. The application will go to that folder in Outlook, extract the attachment > and work on it. > 5. The application will then email the results back to him. > > Or, if you wish, have them set as one-per-line in the body of the email and > then do the same without the excel s/sheet. > > Or,complet a Web form and have that auto-emailed to you and then run the > rule. > > Many ways > > Now tell me you don't use outlook!! > Max > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:53 PM > To: VBA > Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific > client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." > kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex > process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to > do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how > would i go about doing something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new > "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. > I don't know how to build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but > hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a > machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL > Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. > Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year > or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the > loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, > log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do > a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the > loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my > time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:00:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:00:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:13:32 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:13:32 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:30:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F5A5.9030800@colbyconsulting.com> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Wed Mar 17 10:30:54 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL Charlotte -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? Why isn't that #Region { ... } -- Stuart On 16 Mar 2010 at 12:57, Charlotte Foust wrote: > Regions are #Region ... #End Region blocks that enclose routines. They are strictly for readability and convenience and don't affect the code itself in any way. Just make it easier to organize. You can collapse regions just as you can collapse routines, and you can nest regions for tidiness. > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:55 AM > To: dwaters at usinternet.com; Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Other then the 'region' where I didn't really use classes, and the > 'region' when I started too, no.... > > LOL (ok, had to post, cause I'm curious what it is....) > > Drew > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:00 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Does anyone use Regions to organize your code? > > Pros? Cons? > > Thanks! > Dan > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person or entity > to which it is addressed and may contain II-VI Proprietary and/or II-VI Business > Sensitive material. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender > immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. > You are notified that any review, retransmission, copying, disclosure, dissemination, > or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:42:08 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Using Regions? In-Reply-To: References: <4254D0C18D114CF5A64D9F7F65FEF6F1@danwaters>, , <4BA03A91.29074.139324F4@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <4BA0F850.6050409@colbyconsulting.com> ROTFL. They are easy to lose, not as In Your Face as a ton of BEGIN / ENDs. ;) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Charlotte Foust wrote: > Oops, I must have mislaid my curly brackets. Probably left them in my other coat. LOL > > Charlotte > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:13 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Using Regions? > > Why isn't that > > #Region { > ... > } > > From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 10:43:36 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:36 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty much just looking for something like: Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population 56 127,435 437,329 Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: 1) Create a working directory using the order number 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) 4) Import the data into that order database 5) Run the queries and get the counts 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. They would be THRILLED with this. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Too bad. > Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >> >> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >> >> /gustav From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 10:49:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA0F9FC.1020809@colbyconsulting.com> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:30 >>> > I can do that. I am looking more toward something that runs directly on their computer, takes the > list, shovels it across the internet, processes the data and hands back a count. They are pretty > much just looking for something like: > > Zip Cnt : Household Count : Population > 56 127,435 437,329 > > Thus if I can devise a program that runs on their machine, talks to my servers, feeds a zip list > across to my server, receives these counts back and displays them I am gold. This would allow me to > potentially get rid of a bunch of stuff on my end. ATM I have to: > > 1) Create a working directory using the order number > 2) Save the spreadsheet they send me into that directory > 3) Copy a template database to the name of the order (not strictly required but what I am doing) > 4) Import the data into that order database > 5) Run the queries and get the counts > 6) Paste the numbers into email and send the email. > > This whole thing could be shrunk down to (on my end): > > 1) Receive a stream of zips and save to a standard database. > 2) Run the queries and send back the numbers > > No more manual labor (on my end), no order directories, no order databases, no email. > > I am thinking a "service" as Shamil suggested, talking to a C#.Net program running on their computer. > > They would be THRILLED with this. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: >> Hi John >> >> Too bad. >> Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. >> >> /gustav >> >> >>>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> >> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Gustav Brock wrote: >>> Hi John >>> >>> The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? >>> >>> If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. >>> >>> /gustav > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From dw-murphy at cox.net Wed Mar 17 11:48:04 2010 From: dw-murphy at cox.net (Doug Murphy) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:48:04 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: One way to do this is with web services. I have a client who wants to keep order data on a local access database, but also has a web order entry system that I built in ASP.NET. The ASP.NET site uses a SQL server database. I keep them in synch with web services. Works well. A more .NET type approach would be to use the entity framework and Windows Communcation Foundation. It looked really attractive for the project I mentioned but we originally started with a version of SQL Server that wasn't supported. Don't remember much about it except that it would have been easier to build. I don't understand the theory behind a lot of the .NET stuff but it does seem to work as advertised. Doug -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:53 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Wed Mar 17 11:51:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:51:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#DownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:20:48 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to transfer data. Web services are really easy. You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is almost as easy as a webpage. I can help you out with those if you need. You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. David McAfee On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > something like this. > > 1) The client is in NY. > 2) The data is in my server in NC > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > 4) SQL Server 2008 > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > So... ?What are my options? > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to > build a web app. > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > they do a count. > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 17 12:20:49 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:20:49 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cac5f6$31b1c100$6a01a8c0@nant> Thank you, Gustav, Yes, John, making simple ASP.NET Web Services is an easy exercise, and as Gustav noted we have a sample of such a web service on nowthwind.codeplex.com... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:52 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John But that's the easy part. The wizard nearly sets it up for you (you will, of course, need the connection to the backend database as well but that's kid's stuff for you). For the client - the app - the web service appears like a record source. Shamil once posted a demo. Thread: Aug. 2009: Posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com > FYI: I have posted web service test sample at northwind.codeplex.com http://northwind.codeplex.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=26600#D ownloadId=81254 Also, lots of example code out there. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:49 >>> > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. LOL, all I have to do is learn how to do web services. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > OK, then you could create a standard WinForms application and deploy it as a ClickOnce application. It works extremely well. > See the old threads (subject: ClickOnce) from 10. and 24. of Oct. 2008. > > However, as this sounds so simple a UI, you could as well consider this being your first web application. The advantage is, of course, zero installation at client side. > > As Shamil suggests, let this app (win- or webform) communicate with a web service you set up. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From davidmcafee at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 12:54:38 2010 From: davidmcafee at gmail.com (David McAfee) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:54:38 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BA0DEB3.9000002@colbyconsulting.com> <8786a4c01003171020j65ba8e26xff942bb791cecc25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8786a4c01003171054t3cf32a37t673d465051d605d2@mail.gmail.com> This is how I pull data from my SQLCE database and send it to my webservice: (You would be reading from a CSV file instead) private void moveInvHdrFromSdfToSQL() { localhost.Service1 MyObj = new localhost.Service1(); SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection CEconn; CEconn = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeConnection(("Data Source =" + (PathPC + FileName))); CEconn.Open(); string strSQL = "SELECT ICNo,StoreNo,InvNo,InvDate,CustPoNo,ResaleFlag,CrMemoFlag,SelForPrtFlag FROM tblInvHdr"; SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter CEda = new SqlServerCe.SqlCeDataAdapter(strSQL, CEconn); DataSet ds = new DataSet(); CEda.Fill(ds, "InvHdr"); string RtnMsg = MyObj.InsertInvHdr(ds); if ((RtnMsg != "InvHdr data inserted")) { throw new Exception(RtnMsg); } CEda.Dispose(); CEconn.Close(); CEconn.Dispose(); } and this is the webservice being called: [WebMethod()] public string InsertInvHdr(string strInput, DataSet dsIn) { int errNum; string errMsg; SqlConnection myConnection; SqlCommand myCommand; DataRow row; try { myConnection = new SqlConnection("server=MyServerName;uid=MyLogin;pwd=MyPW;database=MyDataBaseName"); myConnection.Open(); myCommand = new SqlCommand(); myCommand.Connection = myConnection; foreach (row in dsIn.Tables[0].Rows) { myCommand.CommandText = ("EXEC stpInsertIntoInvHdr \'" + (row["ICNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["StoreNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvNo"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["InvDate"].ToString() + ("\', \'" + (row["CustPoNo"].ToString().Replace(''', "||") + ("\', " + (row["ResaleFlag"].ToString() + (", " + (row["CrMemoFlag"].ToString() + (", " + row["SelForPrtFlag"].ToString()))))))))))))))); myCommand.ExecuteNonQuery(); } return "InvHdr data inserted"; myConnection.Close(); } catch (Exception ex) { errNum = Err.Number; errMsg = ex.Message; return ("SQL/WS Error: WS.InsertInvHdr - " + (errNum + (":" + errMsg))); } } And this is the Stored procedure: (I've simplified it a bit, just to save time) CREATE PROCEDURE stpInsertIntoInvHdr( @ICnum AS VARCHAR(10), @StoreNo AS VARCHAR(16), @InvNo AS VARCHAR (8), @InvDate AS VARCHAR(22), @CustPoNo AS VARCHAR (20), @ResaleFlag AS INT, @CrMemoFlag AS INT, @SelForPrtFlag AS INT) AS INSERT INTO InvHdr (ICNo, StoreNo, InvNo, InvDate, CustPoNo, ResaleFlag, CrMemoFlag, SelForPrtFlag) VALUES (@ICnum, @StoreNo, @InvNo, @InvDate, @CustPoNo, @ResaleFlag, at CrMemoFlag, at SelForPrtFlag) This is using a SQL 2000 database, if you are using SQL Server 2008, you don't have to insert line by line and can actually do a bulk insert, which is even easier. David On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David McAfee wrote: > John I vote for either a Webpage or a C# FE using a Web Service to > transfer data. > > Web services are really easy. > > You can even distribute your FE via Click Once, so distribution is > almost as easy as a webpage. > > I can help you out with those if you need. > > You can pass datasets to your webservice and have them Returned to your app. > > David McAfee > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:52 AM, jwcolby wrote: >> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. ?One specific client places orders with >> me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. ?To make a long story short, it is a >> moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. ?However what I would REALLY like to do >> is to make it a process that they can do themselves. >> >> My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing >> something like this. >> >> 1) The client is in NY. >> 2) The data is in my server in NC >> 3) The server is Windows 2003 >> 4) SQL Server 2008 >> 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# >> 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which >> essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. >> >> So... ?What are my options? >> >> 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. ?I don't know how to >> build a web app. >> 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my >> office. ?I don't know how to do web services yet. >> 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. >> >> At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. ?I do a machination, place the zips in a >> directory, import into a database in SQL Server. ?Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to >> get the counts. ?Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. >> >> I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or >> 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. ?My idea is to build a program that allows >> them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time >> they do a count. >> >> Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a >> little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. ?Gets me out of the loop is BIG! >> >> -- >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 17 18:08:36 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:08:36 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN References: Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> I'm using Tortoise. It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I didn't look into it. Cheers Michael M Hi Mark I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ However, I haven't experimented with any of these. /gustav >>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> Just check the mdb in John. It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will version control the mdb file. It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage sizes nowadays anyway :o) it is very comforting to check files in and out. Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. Mark _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 06:33:00 From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Wed Mar 17 18:40:04 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:40:04 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> References: , <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 17 20:18:58 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:18:58 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] VisualVSN In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DB4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA17F82.8040203@colbyconsulting.com> I am using VisualVSN integrated into VS2008. It is dead easy. It is also pretty cheap at $50 / seat. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > I'm using Tortoise. > It integrates with VS2008 just like a bought one. > > Only real drama I've had with SVN/Tortoise is when I'm developing in 2 > virtual machines on the same code (don't ask :-)) > Occasionally I get odd characters displaying when updating. I think it > had something to do with line numbers. But it was such a small issue I > didn't look into it. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > Hi Mark > > I located this discussion on Ankh and VisualSVN: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/283311/source-control-with-visual-stu > dio-switch-from-visualsvn-to-ankh > > Also, a free add-in, TortoiseSVN Addin for Visual Studio: > > http://tsvnaddin.codeplex.com/ > > However, I haven't experimented with any of these. > > /gustav > > >>>> marklbreen at gmail.com 17-03-2010 10:01 >>> > Just check the mdb in John. > > It will not look inside the mdb for the objects in there, but it will > version control the mdb file. > > It might grow large in size if the mdb file, but who cares about storage > sizes nowadays anyway :o) > > it is very comforting to check files in and out. > > Did you also come across ANKH to integrate with Visual SVN? It gives > you the ability to incorporate SVN within VS2008. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/17/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:15:30 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:15:30 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would second that thought of slowly moving to web based entry forms. It is sort of half way in between being sent all the data and then you having to manage it and sending the results back. By building a web form the data can be controlled or at least partially managed by the client and then you just have to manage the BE. I also use a combination of Hamachi VPN (a LogMeIn component) and Filezilla (a very secure FTP client and Server) to move large blocks of data back and forth. The free LogMeIn module does not have data transfer... Bigger clients either have and can use MS Remote Desktop Connection or Linux/Unix based clients have Citrix. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:49 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do is to make it a process that they can do themselves. My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing something like this. 1) The client is in NY. 2) The data is in my server in NC 3) The server is Windows 2003 4) SQL Server 2008 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. So... What are my options? 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to build a web app. 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my office. I don't know how to do web services yet. 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time they do a count. Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:21:11 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:21:11 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 13:29:55 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:29:55 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> References: <4BA0EE83.8010407@colbyconsulting.com> <4BA16854.26182.182DE638@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> Message-ID: <022ABAA50D8C4690817E6CD2DAF92FD3@creativesystemdesigns.com> Stuart: ...Or FileZilla for example. Server version will set listener to any port ;-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Stuart McLachlan Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:40 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold I'd use: 1. A "Listener" application on your network. a. Set you router to forward packets on Port xxx to MachineA. b. A program on MachineA that just listens on Port xxx - when it receives an appropriate notification, it downloads a file from the Internet, does the SQL processing and uses Blat to send an email containing the results. 2. A simple webpage that lets the user upload the CSV file and then sends a notification on Port xxx to your router's public IP address. I can send you a demo Listener written in PB and some simple PHP to do the notification. I have a couple of website/in house database setups that essentially do this, the only difference is that they feed back HTML to the website to display the results, rather than emailing them. -- Stuart On 17 Mar 2010 at 11:00, jwcolby wrote: > It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 14:52 >>> > > As you guys know, I have started doing a lot of stuff in C#. One specific client places orders with > > me to provide him "counts of records where..." kind of thing. To make a long story short, it is a > > moderately complex process which I am automating using C#. However what I would REALLY like to do > > is to make it a process that they can do themselves. > > > > My question to those who know more than I (translated "most everybody") how would i go about doing > > something like this. > > > > 1) The client is in NY. > > 2) The data is in my server in NC > > 3) The server is Windows 2003 > > 4) SQL Server 2008 > > 5) I have and am getting pretty comfortable with C# > > 6) I have moderately high internet speed, 12M down 1 meg up, but the new "burst mode" which > > essentially doubles that for the first 30 seconds. > > > > So... What are my options? > > > > 1) Make it a browser based widget that hits a web server here in my office. I don't know how to > > build a web app. > > 2) Make it a service based C# program that they have on their desktop but hits a data service on my > > office. I don't know how to do web services yet. > > 3) Something else that I am not thinking about yet. > > > > At the moment the client sends me a spreadsheet of zips. I do a machination, place the zips in a > > directory, import into a database in SQL Server. Maybe perform a minor edit to an existing view to > > get the counts. Open an email and paste the results back in, and send the email. > > > > I have this process down from what used to take an hour or two back a year or so ago to about 15 or > > 20 minutes today, but I still have to be in the loop. My idea is to build a program that allows > > them to do this themselves, log that it has happened and bill them $25 (or something) every time > > they do a count. > > > > Let them do it themselves making it faster for them, gets me out of the loop, drops my income a > > little but I get paid for my computer instead of my time. Gets me out of the loop is BIG! > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:32:07 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 13:56:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:56:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A6F1FBE1E984015B4936A3A360DCA80@Server> Doug, I use FileZilla Server (free) and that maintains a list of banned IP addresses as well as a log showing who was trying to get in. Blocked Ips can be timed specific. Not sure about FileZilla Client, but may have the same. I log them and then check back on what names they were using to try to guess the password - quite funny some of them. There are others. New: Automatically block IP addresses after a specific number of failed login attempts. http://www.pablosoftwaresolutions.com/html/quick__n_easy_ftp_server.html http://software.informer.com/getfree-bullet-ftp-block-ip-address/ Do a google for "ftp block ip addresses" Max -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:32 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 14:22:10 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:22:10 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Thu Mar 18 14:33:08 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:33:08 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:36:48 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:36:48 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Thu Mar 18 17:55:17 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:55:17 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Mar 18 19:31:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:31:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <4BA2C5CB.7060703@colbyconsulting.com> You would think that the UK would be one place you could get him prosecuted. Of course that assumes that he really is in the UK. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Michael Maddison wrote: > Going OT but I gotta share :-) > I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. > We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. > Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account > and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! > Who would do that??? > I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's > hard to see his payment :-) > He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... > The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the > incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? > I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to > collect but decided it was too much effort. > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute > force your PW. It keeps him > from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" > scams. > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Doug Steele wrote: >> Hi Jim: >> >> I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data > from >> clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the > server >> screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying > to >> brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third > wrong >> guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break > in, but >> it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming >> ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which > can be >> all over the place. >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> >> On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence > wrote: >>> Hi Gustav: >>> >>> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it > is so >>> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 > 06:33:00 > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 22:47:35 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:47:35 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. It works very and I have never had any problems since. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim: I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be all over the place. Thanks, Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Hi Gustav: > > Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so > secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From dbdoug at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 23:16:14 2010 From: dbdoug at gmail.com (Doug Steele) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:16:14 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <5CE461E6C1E949449181FC29836EA605@creativesystemdesigns.com> Message-ID: <4dd71a0c1003182116o5976ec7evfdc37d3ca19477b6@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jim. I'll definitely take your advice about port 21. Our passwords are pretty strong - as I said, there haven't been any successful attacks. I haven't tried a VPN. I was exaggerating slightly about China; lots of the hackers are in North America, so banning IP ranges would only be a partial solution. I did once try working through an ISP's abuse department, but ended up spending quite a bit of time only to discover that, basically, they didn't care and weren't going to do anything. Doug On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:47 PM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > Move you ports Doug. Port 21 is just uncool and downright dangerous. > > 1. Turn off Port 21 on your client's router. > 2. Setup a Hamachi VPN on your and your client's computer. > 3. VPN to the FTP server and Password protect access. > 4. Create a good password like "{0ver+the+Hill&aroundTheBend!!}" > 5. Block the IP range from that boy in China. > 6. Send a note to the boys ISP addressed to abuse.***.com > 7. Send an email to the boy threatening to call his mother. > > It works very and I have never had any problems since. > HTH > > Jim > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Doug Steele > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:32 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold > > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, > but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the > incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can > be > all over the place. > > From accessd at shaw.ca Thu Mar 18 23:58:52 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <4dd71a0c1003181132k360d5793yaafb4dd6bddcc9d8@mail.gmail.com> <4BA27D62.4050509@colbyconsulting.com> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC7@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: Micheal: This happens all the time with sites like Craig's list. There has happened so many time people scammed that banks will not even back cheques any more. Only deal with cash... Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:55 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Going OT but I gotta share :-) I had some clown in the UK try a over pay scam on my wife last week. We advertised a scooter on a commercial web site here in OZ. Guy strings us along then claims to have overpaid into PayPal account and wants the difference sent back via Western Union to the UK! Who would do that??? I strung him along for a while saying we get so many transactions it's hard to see his payment :-) He tried to threaten me with the FRAUD POLICE. Lol... The web site I advertised sent me a form letter when I reported the incident warning me to be careful of fraud. Wtf? I so wanted to forge a WU transfer just to make him/her go and try to collect but decided it was too much effort. Cheers Michael M I would think you would WANT to keep that 14 year old trying to brute force your PW. It keeps him from more profitable stuff like "you have won the hong kong lottery" scams. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Doug Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I have been using a Filezilla server for some time to transfer data from > clients. The one annoying problem I have is that I'll look at the server > screen in the morning, and some 14 year old in China has been trying to > brute force the password all night, getting kicked off on every third wrong > guess then logging right back in. I've never had a successful break in, but > it's annoying - do you have a solution for this? I can't limit the incoming > ip range as the server is picking up data from client computers which can be > all over the place. > > Thanks, > Doug > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Jim Lawrence wrote: > >> Hi Gustav: >> >> Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so >> secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) >> >> Jim >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 00:52:50 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:52:50 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Fri Mar 19 00:57:26 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:26 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local> <001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/18/10 06:33:00 _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/19/10 06:33:00 From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 01:41:37 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:37 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> References: <000001cac6d1$d7c13b30$6a01a8c0@nant><59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DC5@ddi-01.DDI.local><001b01cac728$6a51b780$6a01a8c0@nant> <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582DD4@ddi-01.DDI.local> Message-ID: <001c01cac72f$3a71b040$6a01a8c0@nant> Yes, but in this his last issue he promises to publish something new, even better - and the subject tutorial is one of the best his works I suppose... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:57 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Me too, Shame thats the last one. Cheers Michael M Hi Michael -- Yes, I have already read the Joel's explanation/introduction to the subject tutorial - it was where I have got a link to the tutorial (I'm "Joel On Software" subscriber for many years now))... --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddison Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:37 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 09:10:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:10:13 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Message-ID: Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 11:42:38 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:38 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Message-ID: Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 19 11:52:52 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:52:52 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Gustav -- That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st udio-2008-together/ I must note I haven't used it yet. Thank you. --Shamii -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi Shamil and Michael But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" sub-icons. Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil to maintain. /gustav >>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> Hi Shamil, Beat me to it..lol Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html Talk about timing :-) Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hi All, Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): http://hginit.com/ I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago (before I did find this article/tutorial). Enjoy! ;) -- Shamil From accessd at shaw.ca Fri Mar 19 12:26:24 2010 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26494BC39BA443D9B01695E02869F25C@creativesystemdesigns.com> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:10 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi Jim Why not? I've never had the need for extra features. The FTP service of IIS has been fine. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 18-03-2010 19:21 >>> Hi Gustav: Why not try FileZila...many of my clients use this package because it is so secure. (http://filezilla-project.org) Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:14 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Goin' for the (browser based) gold Hi John Too bad. Could you persuade the client to send the file via FTP to your server? Then you could have a folder change service running picking up the uploaded file and pass it on to be processed. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 17-03-2010 16:00 >>> It appears that ordinarily they get a list of zips directly from their client, in a CSV. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > The big question is how the lead data get into the worksheet. Are they extracted/exported from somewhere or are they typed in manually? > > If the latter, they could as well type data into a (web)form of yours. If you are not in the mood for creating your first web application, the simple method is to create a winform in a small Windows app which you leave running on a (virtual) machine for which you grant the client remote access. A splendid and free method for this is to use LogMeIn Free. > > /gustav _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Fri Mar 19 12:41:12 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:41:12 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] FTP server (was: Goin' for the (browser based) gold) Message-ID: Hi Jim OK, I'll make a note on this. Sounds very nice. Just about the only feature I recall to have used is virtual folders which FTP of IIS handles well. /gustav >>> accessd at shaw.ca 19-03-2010 18:26 >>> It is just such an easy install for small clients and has so many nice features and easy interface that with a little training they can manage much of their own data receipt and transfers. ...But for us programmers and administrators it provides so much more. It allows central control, with private ports for administration control (also blocks remote changes in administration privileges and can bind remote admin to specific IP addresses), sets users with their own passwords, level of access, level of data transfer compression, restricts sizes of transferred files, access times, speed control, blocks certain types of interfaces or sets strict IP range limits, can set SSL/TLS private and public keys, support for FTPS, GSS and Kerberos and has a command line interface and public classes for fine grained data control. There is more but I can not remember all the features but you can see that it goes far beyond just basic FTP. Jim From max.wanadoo at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 13:11:02 2010 From: max.wanadoo at gmail.com (Max Wanadoo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:11:02 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Outlook Macros In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223BF14B7E204BB7B60941E00BBF592D@Server> I have just written some code to move all accessList emails from all the initial folder into other folders based on the subject matter, creating a new folder as necessary. They are now grouped by subject instead of person (which I had before and that was impossible to follow threads). I can run that code from Access or from within Outlook by selecting Tools/Macro/Macros or Alt-F8 and then clicking Run. The Outlook Macro options do not appear to have any way to RECORD a Macro so that I can run it directly with a hot-key. IS this correct, because it sound strange when other office apps have this facility. I don't want to go via the macro menu if I can avoid it. Thanks Max From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 08:37:07 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart Message-ID: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time configuration". Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it configured VS for first time use. I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there and seems to be functioning. A little strange! -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:19:22 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:19:22 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Call for development assistance Message-ID: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective advocates. First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ For my state the link is: http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a system for coordinating the graduates. What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web site. Sigh. So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people with a disability. Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: http://consumer-action.org/ This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. Thanks, -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 09:58:16 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:58:16 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for development assistance In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8CDEA.9000907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BA8D708.2000901@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Susan! If it works, eventually this thing will be huge I think. In the meantime I am going to need SQL Server stuff, C# stuff and ASP.Net stuff. Lots for everyone to do I am sure. Not to mention brainstorming, high level planning, documentation and so much more. I would like to be able to do startup in time for my last session which will be in the November time frame. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Susan Harkins wrote: >> Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and >> let's make this thing happen. > > ======JC, count me in -- I have no experience in building web sites, but I'm > sure there's something I could do to help, and I'm not opposing to learning > new skills. > > Susan H. > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 23 14:20:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:20:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] Call for Development In-Reply-To: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> References: <002601cacabc$0f8ad6a0$2ea083e0$@net> Message-ID: <4BA9147B.2040903@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Randy! I will do some organization stuff to allow us all to work together and then call a meeting. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Randy Sigmond wrote: > John, > > > > Count me in! > > > > I have experience in C#, ASP.NET & SQL Development. > > > > Randy Sigmond > > > > Ps - I can be found on LinkedIn.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-SQLServer mailing list > dba-SQLServer at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-sqlserver > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From garykjos at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:37:50 2010 From: garykjos at gmail.com (Gary Kjos) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:37:50 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual studio has a brain fart In-Reply-To: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BA8C403.9040506@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Patch Tuesday maybe? GK On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, jwcolby wrote: > I tried to open Visual Studio this morning and it told me that it had to do "first time > configuration". ?Asked me what language I was working in etc, then told me to wait while it > configured VS for first time use. > > I have been using VS daily for many months, essentially since I started my C# class last Sept. > > Once it did this configuration it all seems to be there. ?It knows my solutions, Visual SVN is there > and seems to be functioning. > > A little strange! > > -- > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- Gary Kjos garykjos at gmail.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:16:49 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:16:49 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> Message-ID: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:46:25 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:46:25 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up Message-ID: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Guys, In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes docked on that side and so forth. Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio Brain Farts). Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 07:59:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:59:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? From dwaters at usinternet.com Wed Mar 24 08:38:09 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:38:09 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the same: 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click Next 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish Good Luck, Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the middle it would dock on the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing new there) but I am at least working. Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears that maybe it didn't set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the project. Now F6 is ignored and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it immediately offers to build a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells VS which environment to use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com jwcolby wrote: > Guys, > > In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, if I pinned them open > they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at the top, the next would > be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me to select the panes > docked on that side and so forth. > > Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by side, taking up just TONS > of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that got reset (see Visual Studio > Brain Farts). > > Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 08:42:45 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Sometimes Microsoft really is good Message-ID: <4BAA16D5.8090605@colbyconsulting.com> I had an issue with Visual Studio, it decided that I was using it for the first time. BOO! I had to reconfigure how the panes dock. BOO! When I finished and tried to run, the application crashed. BOO! It reported the error. YEAAA! It told me I needed to download a hotfix. YEAAA! It took me directly to the page to get the hotfix! YEAAA! Which I did. Now, I have no idea whether this is going to actually fix it or not but it is in areas like this that I am impressed with Microsoft. Yea, bugs are a PITA, but we all have them. It is how we handle them that makes the difference and MS really handles that side of things well IMHO. To have a list of bugs, the specific patch that fixes it, the reporting that finds it, and the system to get it and install it is pretty cool. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 09:25:21 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:25:21 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up In-Reply-To: References: <4BAA09A1.1070907@colbyconsulting.com> <4BAA0C97.8000804@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <4BAA20D1.7050907@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Dan, that was it. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Dan Waters wrote: > Hi John, > > Found this in a search - it's for VS 2005 but my screen (2010) shows the > same: > > 1. Choose Tools -> Import and Export Settings... > 2. Select Reset All Settings and click Next > 3. Select whether you would like to save the current settings and click > Next > 4. Select the settings you want to use and click Finish > > Good Luck, > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Visual Studio docking screwed up > > OK, I discovered that if I dragged the pane to the little "dock icon" in the > middle it would dock on > the side with the tabs at the bottom. I am still a little confused (nothing > new there) but I am at > least working. > > Now, even though I told VS that I want to use the C# environment, it appears > that maybe it didn't > set me up for that. For example I used to use F6 (I think) to build the > project. Now F6 is ignored > and I have to use Ctl-Shft-B. Also when I go to create a new project it > immediately offers to build > a VB project, not a C# project. I know I have found the property that tells > VS which environment to > use but I am not finding it now. Where is that thing? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > jwcolby wrote: >> Guys, >> >> In the past, if I had a couple of panes docked on one side of the VS pane, > if I pinned them open >> they would position themselves underneath each other. IOW one would be at > the top, the next would >> be underneath that one etc. There would be tabs at the bottom allowing me > to select the panes >> docked on that side and so forth. >> >> Now for some reason, when I pin them open the position themselves side by > side, taking up just TONS >> of screen real estate. Obviously there is some property somewhere that > got reset (see Visual Studio >> Brain Farts). >> >> Does anyone know how to set things up the way I know and love? > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From mikedorism at verizon.net Wed Mar 24 16:12:19 2010 From: mikedorism at verizon.net (Doris Manning) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:12:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> References: <66D9CA142291D741B515207C09AA3BC3147F00@MAIL2.FLDOE.INT> <4BAA02B1.9060909@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, If you could use another body, I'd be happy to throw my hat into the ring. I am familiar with SQL Server and C#. Looking to improve my web UI skills. Doris Manning Senior Developer/Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:17 AM To: Discussion concerning MS SQL Server; VBA Subject: Re: [dba-VB] [dba-SQLServer] dba-SQLServer Digest, Vol 85, Issue 13 Susan, I need everyone I can get. In the end this will be a large project and I am certain that it will take a large team to complete. I will need to get a web server up and available to the team. I would like to do this in .Net simply because that is something that many of the people on this list want to learn how to use. I am open to other tools but before I select another tool I want to know that .Net is not going to work. I assume that means ASP.Net. I will also need to get a SQL Server available. Or maybe MySQL, I am open to that. I happen to be somewhat familiar with SQL Server and not at all familiar with MYSQL so of course SQL Server would be my first choice. Plus I have SQL Server at my fingertips. While we are doing development I am thinking of setting up one or more virtual machines on my servers to host this stuff. I have a VMWare server and virtual machines already created; I use VMWare for other things. It would be fairly easy for me to get a couple up and running and ready to go. I would like to build a pair of VMs that think they are a self contained network, exposed to the internet so that people could come in and work. Try to minimize the security risk to the rest of my network. I would also like to use source control from the getgo. And then there is documentation. So as you can see, there are many areas of expertise, lots of stuff to do. I don't think it will be hard to find something for everyone to do. Thanks for volunteering. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Klos, Susan wrote: > John, count me in also. I am not familiar with .net but have built websites using a text editor and knowledge of html code. I would be more than willing to help where I can and learn new things. I am an advocate for cross browser coding. It should look good in browsers other than IE. I used to use Cold Fusion for getting data from and to a database on the server. I could learn .net I am sure. > > If you need further assistance feel free to contact me. > > Susan Klos > Senior Database Analyst > Florida Department of Education > Evaluation and Reporting Office > Phone: 850.245.0708 > Fax: 850.245.0710 > email: susan.klos at fldoe.org > > > Guys, > > Please bear with me for just a bit of explanation. > > Because my daughter has a genetic problem which causes her a variety of medical issues, I have > become involved in an organization that is training my wife and I to be advocates for people with > disabilities. The organization is called Partners in Policymaking (PIP) and their intent is to > train individuals with disabilities, or caretakers for people with disabilities to be effective > advocates. > > First of all anyone (in the US) who has a disability or is a caretaker, I highly recommend the > following site as it provides a ton of links to other sites for specific issues. > > http://www.partnersinpolicymaking.com/ > > For my state the link is: > > http://www.ncpartnersinpolicymaking.com/index.html > > PIP is a national organization but each state has their own organization to provide training in that > state. PIP provides a series of about 9 monthly trainings (16 hours, once a month) on a variety of > issues. Each participant (me) has to do a project. > > While PIP has a web site and stuff, what they do not have (or I haven't found) is an effective > system for allowing every PIP graduate from every state to find each other and communicate. For my > project I have decided to try to leverage my technical abilities (and contacts!) to try and build a > system for coordinating the graduates. > > What I want to do is build a web site. BUT I do not do web sites! But it really needs to be a web > site. Sigh. > > So (THE PURPOSE OF THIS EMAIL) I am putting out a call for anyone who wants to get involved with a > good cause and knows anything at all about building a web site (in .Net). I am going to be involved > in this. I am going to learn everything I can about every phase of this, but I need help. > > I expect to have a fairly large database of contact information, including email addresses. I > expect eventually to broaden the base to anyone with a stake, people with or caretakers of people > with a disability. > > Eventually I would like to build a system similar to one belonging to: > > http://consumer-action.org/ > > This organization collects email addresses for consumers who want to affect legislation. Someone at > consumer-action.org then monitors legislation before congress and emails us consumers when > legislation is about to be voted on. More importantly it provides a way, through their web site, to > SEND EMAIL to MY legislators (based on my zip code). > > Way cool, way easy to send the email to my legislator. > > I want to do that for disability rights legislation. I need help. > > Anyone interested in helping please raise your hand, get with me, and let's make this thing happen. > > Thanks, > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Wed Mar 24 20:45:06 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 21:45:06 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From michael at ddisolutions.com.au Wed Mar 24 20:58:25 2010 From: michael at ddisolutions.com.au (Michael Maddison) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:58:25 +1100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos References: <4BAAC022.1090602@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <59A61174B1F5B54B97FD4ADDE71E7D01582E33@ddi-01.DDI.local> Hi John, I feel your pain :-) If you have a BindingSource for the combo you can apply a filter there. Heres my code for filtering a DataGridView. BS.Filter = "Archived = False And " + String.Format ( "ReceivedDate >= '{0:yyyy-MM-dd}'", DateTime.Today.AddMonths (-3 )); There is a remove filter method as well. Cheers Michael M -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Thursday, 25 March 2010 12:45 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2749 - Release Date: 03/25/10 06:33:00 From Gustav at cactus.dk Thu Mar 25 05:38:29 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Filtered Combos Message-ID: Hi John You are doing it right and you will end up with three icons per source. If that bothers you, you will notice that the code for creating these are held in the designer code of the form. They can be moved to the code module if you like, and then the icons will not be present. Here is an example where a predefined dataset is used: public partial class FormMain : Form { public DataSetDL DlDataSet = new DataSetDL(); public FormMain() { InitializeComponent(); InitializeDataSet(); InitializeFolders(); } private void FillEmployerComboBox() { DataSetDL.DataTableEmployerDataTable dataTableEmployer = DlDataSet.DataTableEmployer; EmployerComboBox.SelectedItem = "Id"; EmployerComboBox.DisplayMember = "Organisation"; EmployerComboBox.DataSource = dataTableEmployer; } } InitializeDataSet fills the datasets from an XML file. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 25-03-2010 02:45 >>> I am trying to filter a bound combo when another combo changes selection. I have to tell you this is overwhelming my tiny mind. My form is bound and I have three combos also bound. There must be a DOZEN objects down in the foot of my form - datasets, binding sources, tableadapters and binding navigators. Too much stuff. It's like each bound object drags along three different things just to make it work. Am I doing this right? Which piece would I modify to change the sql that changes the data displayed in the filtered combo? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 07:29:30 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:29:30 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Mar 26 08:29:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:29:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] One or more objects access this field Message-ID: <4BACB6AF.7090508@colbyconsulting.com> I tried to do a drop column from a sql statement and it failed with that error message. AFAICT I had no cursors etc open that displayed that field. I eventually went into design view of the table and manually deleted the column and that worked. Any ideas why something like this occurs? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Fri Mar 26 14:18:01 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:18:01 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- I do use it here: http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... Thank you. --Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial So is anyone (of us) actually using this? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi Gustav -- > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > udio-2008-together/ > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > Thank you. > > --Shamii > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic light" > sub-icons. > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all evil > to maintain. > > /gustav > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > Hi Shamil, > > Beat me to it..lol > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > Talk about timing :-) > > Cheers > > Michael M > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Hi All, > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged (:)) > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be polite): > > http://hginit.com/ > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > Enjoy! ;) > > -- > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 06:17:52 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:17:52 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-VB mailing list > > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:18:53 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 09:32:44 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:32:44 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <4BAE170C.10205@colbyconsulting.com> Mark, It is too expensive for me. I am currently using VisualSVN and it is "enough" for my simple needs, and at $50 / seat is cheap enough to actually afford and buy, though I haven't done so yet - still on the 30 day review. ATM I have just me and I am in the process of bringing in two or three students to learn and then assist me in my C# / SQL Server project, which is 1/2 of my business and income right now. I would switch to Mercurial if: I can make the switch. I can get transparent integration to VS2008. It is cheap / free. It provides recognizable benefits over VisualSVN. The bottom line is that what I have works, and it was dead simple to get working and to use. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Mark Breen wrote: > Hello All, > > I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. > It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. > > IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for > Mecurial - or did I not get it right? > > I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering > downloading and installing it here. > > What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could > set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not > really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. > > Thanks > > Mark > > > > > On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi John -- >> >> I do use it here: >> >> http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets >> >> But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamil >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby >> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM >> To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. >> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >> >> So is anyone (of us) actually using this? >> >> John W. Colby >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> >> >> Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >>> Hi Gustav -- >>> >>> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >>> >>> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >>> >>> >> http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >>> udio-2008-together/ >>> >>> I must note I haven't used it yet. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> --Shamii >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock >>> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM >>> To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>> Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi Shamil and Michael >>> >>> But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic >> light" >>> sub-icons. >>> >>> Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all >> evil >>> to maintain. >>> >>> /gustav >>> >>> >>>>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> >>> Hi Shamil, >>> >>> Beat me to it..lol >>> Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial >>> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html >>> >>> >>> Talk about timing :-) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Michael M >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil >>> Salakhetdinov >>> Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM >>> To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' >>> Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged >> (:)) >>> if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be >> polite): >>> http://hginit.com/ >>> >>> I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago >>> (before I did find this article/tutorial). >>> >>> Enjoy! ;) >>> >>> -- >>> Shamil >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dba-VB mailing list >>> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dba-VB mailing list >> dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >> http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 10:04:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler Message-ID: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 14:22:26 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:22:26 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi John -- Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... All these tools are free. As I'm working with a Codeplex project (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis When working with student support team you'd probably not need any Mercurial servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with some training it should go smoothly): - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as many folders as the size of students' support team you have; - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; - ... - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's call it STDSET1; - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); - ... - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and overwrite cloned source folder for this student; - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's cloned repository; - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) to the main repository; - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; - ... - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their changes to get MAINSET_vX; - ... - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as a default one; - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm "all ears".... Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve step. There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG to create Mercurial repository. If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with SVN. Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject tool. There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all ears"... Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Shamil, I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your source control? If so do you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / inexpensively with Visual studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into Murcurial? Are you available as a source for coaching us through the change? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: >> Hi Gustav -- >> >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: >> >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ >> >> > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st >> udio-2008-together/ >> >> I must note I haven't used it yet. >> >> Thank you. >> >> --Shamii From marklbreen at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 14:52:11 2010 From: marklbreen at gmail.com (Mark Breen) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:52:11 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com> <001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> <4BAE13CD.2040000@colbyconsulting.com> <000601cacde2$d7429b50$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: Hello John and Shamil, I too consider Kiln expensive and I feel I could manage the command line commands. if nothing else, using command line will ensure that I learn the tool. I was mentioning Kiln from the point of view that if Joel has launched an interface for it, he must consider it "One to Watch" for the future. I am like you, and work mostly alone, so I could continue to use SVN, but I think that Merurial might be worth learning so I am watching this space. thanks Mark On 27 March 2010 19:22, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > Yes, I have switched to Mercurial recently. > > I'm currently using Mercurial via command line/Windows Explorer shell - > TortoiseHG (http://tortoisehg.org/), and via VS plug-in: > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ ... > > All these tools are free. > > As I'm working with a Codeplex project > (http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets) I do > not need currently a Mercurial repository (web) server. > > As far as I see there exist free(?) solutions for Mercurial (web) servers > but their setup is a bit(?) tricky: > > > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi > r-on-iis > > When working with student support team you'd probably not need any > Mercurial > servers first time - you can work this way (it looks a bit tricky but with > some training it should go smoothly): > > - coordinator/you: - "just" clone your main Mercurial repository for as > many > folders as the size of students' support team you have; > - send them cloned folders to work locally on their computers; > - ... > - student1 works locally and commits their changes to a changeset - let's > call it STDSET1; > - student1 sends their whole folder to coordinator (you) (they can send > changeset only I guess but I do not know yet how); > - ... > - coordinator/you - collect back their work (whole folder with STDSET1) and > overwrite cloned source folder for this student; > - pull latest changeset from the main repository (MAINSET1) into student's > cloned repository; > - merge pulled main changeset with student changeset (MAINSET1+STDSET1); > - commit merged changset into student cloned repository to make it default > => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - push merged and committed student changeset (STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1) > to > the main repository; > - update main repository to set default changeset to the one committed from > student's cloned folder => STUDENT1:MAINSET1+STDSET1; > - ... > - do all the above coordination steps for all students who sent you their > changes to get MAINSET_vX; > - ... > - pull MAINSET_vX into student's cloned folder; > - update student cloned folder's Mercurial repository to have MAINSET_vX as > a default one; > - send latest version of cloned folders to the students... > > See http://mercurial.selenic.com/quickstart/ > > The above steps assume that there is no source changes' collisions. > If you'll find how to make the above coordination with less steps - I'm > "all > ears".... > > Of course, real life cases will be (much) more complicated than sketched > above - and therefore playing manually with Mercurial distributed source > control using simple projects seems to be a 'must have' learning curve > step. > > There are good docs installed by TortoiseHG setup in .htm, .pdf and .chm > formats having "TORTOISEHG IN DAILY USE" chapter.... > > Mercurial and SVN are different tools - to switch your SVN repository(-ies) > to Mercurial you'll have first to backup them, then delete all SVN support > files (hidden .svn files), then use hg command line utility or TortoiseHG > to > create Mercurial repository. > > If you're in doubt of using/switching to Mercurial maybe better stay with > SVN. > > Sorry, I'm not available for coaching as I'm only a beginner with subject > tool. > There is a Mercurial discussion list you can post your questions in > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tortoisehg-discuss > > If you'll switch to Mercurial and you'll find useful and really concise > tutorials/guides how to setup a free IIS web server for it - I'm "all > ears"... > > Thank you. > > -- > Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > Shamil, > > I was really asking if you have made the switch to using Murcurial as your > source control? If so do > you find it easy to do? Is it cheap / free? Does it integrate easily / > inexpensively with Visual > studio? What was involved to get the old archived files out of SVN and into > Murcurial? Are you > available as a source for coaching us through the change? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi John -- > > > > I do use it here: > > > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > > > John W. Colby > > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > >> Hi Gustav -- > >> > >> That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > >> > >> http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > >> > >> > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > >> udio-2008-together/ > >> > >> I must note I haven't used it yet. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> --Shamii > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Sat Mar 27 15:01:07 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:01:07 +0300 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial In-Reply-To: References: <000001cac784$9ecac5e0$6a01a8c0@nant><4BACA8AA.80106@colbyconsulting.com><001501cacd19$0e80d0c0$6a01a8c0@nant> Message-ID: <000701cacde8$3e94db10$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi Mark -- As I noted in my reply to JC in this thread Mercurial tools (including Visual Studio plug-in and web server) are free. If you can set Central Mercurial Server (to play with) on your publicly available IIS web server and post reproducible setup steps that would be very useful for many developers AFAICS: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484151/how-to-setup-mercurial-central-re pository-on-shared-hosting http://stackoverflow.com/questions/818571/how-to-setup-mercurial-and-hgwebdi r-on-iis Thank you. -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Breen Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 2:18 PM To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial Hello All, I see that Joel has launched Kiln 1.0 which looks to be a GUI for Mecurial. It seems that he is commited to it as a technology. IMO Kiln is pretty expensive for what it seems to be offering - a GUI for Mecurial - or did I not get it right? I have to say that I also found his tutorial facinating and I am considering downloading and installing it here. What do you all think, do we need a Central Mecurial Server also? I could set one up for use all to use if we want / need, but I think we do not really need one unless we were working on a centralised project. Thanks Mark On 26 March 2010 19:18, Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > Hi John -- > > I do use it here: > > http://accesspowertools.codeplex.com/SourceControl/list/changesets > > But I'm just a beginner with subject SCC toolset... > > Thank you. > > --Shamil > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:30 PM > To: Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues. > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > So is anyone (of us) actually using this? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Shamil Salakhetdinov wrote: > > Hi Gustav -- > > > > That seems to be a VS tool for Mercurial: > > > > http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ > > > > > > http://jat45.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/using-mercurial-visualhg-and-visual-st > > udio-2008-together/ > > > > I must note I haven't used it yet. > > > > Thank you. > > > > --Shamii > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 7:43 PM > > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi Shamil and Michael > > > > But how about the integration with VS? I would miss my small "traffic > light" > > sub-icons. > > > > Besides, I have always tried to avoid branching. It's the root of all > evil > > to maintain. > > > > /gustav > > > > > >>>> michael at ddisolutions.com.au 18-03-2010 23:36 >>> > > Hi Shamil, > > > > Beat me to it..lol > > Heres Joels explanation for the tutorial > > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2010/03/17.html > > > > > > Talk about timing :-) > > > > Cheers > > > > Michael M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > > Salakhetdinov > > Sent: Friday, 19 March 2010 6:33 AM > > To: 'Discussion concerning Visual Basic and related programming issues.' > > Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: a Mercurial tutorial > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is a Mercurial tutorial by Joel Spolsky: "You're a brain damaged > (:)) > > if you used Subversion", - he writes in this tutorial (trying to be > polite): > > > > http://hginit.com/ > > > > I did use Subversion but occasionally switched to Mercurial a while ago > > (before I did find this article/tutorial). > > > > Enjoy! ;) > > > > -- > > Shamil > > > > From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 16:39:27 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:39:27 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: <4BAE7B0F.1060707@colbyconsulting.com> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 16:54:49 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:54:49 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John It is 1 that is True. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't test for that? TIA -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Mar 27 17:06:03 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:06:03 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAE814B.4050902@colbyconsulting.com> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sat Mar 27 17:19:18 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:19:18 +0100 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Message-ID: Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 07:36:19 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From dwaters at usinternet.com Sun Mar 28 08:24:39 2010 From: dwaters at usinternet.com (Dan Waters) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:24:39 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Hi Gustav, What is MyBooleanOrBitField? Dan -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? Hi John That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> Any idea why it displays as -1? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > It is 1 that is True. > > /gustav > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I have a bit field and > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out records. If I try == True it > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set (true). > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it display -1 but I can't > test for that? > > TIA _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From stuart at lexacorp.com.pg Sun Mar 28 10:18:44 2010 From: stuart at lexacorp.com.pg (Stuart McLachlan) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:18:44 +1000 Subject: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? In-Reply-To: <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> References: , <120CDC74C3D14389BB33A7F644401D34@danwaters> Message-ID: <4BAF7354.22705.17DE841A@stuart.lexacorp.com.pg> An example name fo the Boolean( Access BE) or Bit (SQL Server BE) field he is working with. -- Stuart On 28 Mar 2010 at 8:24, Dan Waters wrote: > Hi Gustav, > > What is MyBooleanOrBitField? > > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:19 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: Re: [dba-VB] Wha's up with True? > > Hi John > > That is in Access, right? As I've understood it, 1 and 0 _are_ true and > false in SQL Server and preferred to "True" and "False". In Access, true is > - as you know - numerically displayed as -1. > I've made it a habit when working with numeric values for True and False to > use Abs([MyBooleanOrBitField] to avoid further thinking about this and to > make SQL code easier to move between SQL Server and Access. > > /gustav > > >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 23:06 >>> > Any idea why it displays as -1? > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > > Gustav Brock wrote: > > Hi John > > > > It is 1 that is True. > > > > /gustav > > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 27-03-2010 22:39 >>> > > I am working on my billing database which holds the data in SQL Server. I > have a bit field and > > while it shows a value of -1, if I try to do a == -1 it filters out > records. If I try == True it > > pukes. I have to do a <> 0 which returns records where that bit is set > (true). > > > > So bit fields are not True / False? What "value" is it? And why does it > display -1 but I can't > > test for that? > > > > TIA > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From Gustav at cactus.dk Sun Mar 28 14:22:07 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:22:07 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. To look up a record here is one method I use. ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: private void ChangeCustomerSelection() { if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) { _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); } else { this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() { this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); } Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: private void SaveRow() { if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) { // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) { bool enableSave = this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; if (enableSave) { this.Validate(false); if (FormValidated()) { this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; // Enable selection of customer. this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; } } this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; } } } private bool FormValidated() { // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) { return false; } if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) { return false; } return true; } This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 17:40:51 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:40:51 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BAFDAF3.7070707@colbyconsulting.com> Thanks Gustav, This is the kind of stuff I need. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sun Mar 28 21:31:02 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 22:31:02 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] SPAM-LOW: Re: C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB010E6.5090106@colbyconsulting.com> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Gustav Brock wrote: > Hi John > > Did you work through the tutorials referred to through the years here? > > You can look up the thread "Old Dog - New Tricks" from January 2008 where Shamil and others posted some excellent links - including this: > > http://www.asp.net/learn/data-access/ > > This is an absolute must which will teach you about DataTables and TableAdapters and Data Access Layers (and much more) and lift you off all the SqlClient and SqlCommand stuff found everywhere which is waste of time to deal with except for very special purposes. > > Also, I enjoyed some of the free videos from this site: > > http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ > > The "navigation widget" is the binding navigator. Those buttons you don't use can either be deleted or made invisible. > > To look up a record here is one method I use. > ChangeCustomerSelection is called at OnChange of comboBoxCustomer: > > > private void ChangeCustomerSelection() > { > if (this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue != null) > { > _customerId = Convert.ToInt32(this.comboBoxCustomer.SelectedValue); > this.FillCustomerEmailAddress(); > } > else > { > this.textBoxEmailOrganisation.Text = null; > } > > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } > > > Saving a record is done via the table adapter. Here's an example where this.karnelia.CustomerEmail is the dataset updated by the user: > > > > private void SaveRow() > { > if (this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled) > { > // Only save a new media isssue if textBoxMediaId.Text has been properly set. > if (this.textBoxCustomerId.Text.Equals(_customerId.ToString())) > { > bool enableSave = > this.textBoxName.Text.Length > 0 && > this.textBoxEmailAddress.Text.Length > 0; > if (enableSave) > { > this.Validate(false); > if (FormValidated()) > { > this.customerEmailBindingSource.EndEdit(); > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.Update(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail); > this.bindingNavigatorAddNewItem.Enabled = true; > // Enable selection of customer. > this.comboBoxCustomer.Enabled = true; > } > } > this.bindingNavigatorSaveItem.Enabled = false; > } > } > } > > private bool FormValidated() > { > // Checks if no error is displayed for validated controls. > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxName).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > if (errorProvider1.GetError(textBoxEmailAddress).Length > 0) > { > return false; > } > return true; > } > > > > This uses the ErrorProvider object which it sounds like you have found. Very useful. > > As always with .Net, this is only one method. If you have more elaborate validation tests, you could apply DAL, data access layer. A more novel approach is to apply the Entity Framework. > > /gustav > > >>>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 28-03-2010 14:36 >>> > I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS > the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the > record selected with the client id from the combo. > > Seems simple enough. > > Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the > equation. > > I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual > controls. > > So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What > component does that and what property? > > Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a > single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? > > Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... > > And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How > do I save the record? What object / property? > > Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does > this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. > > Any assistance greatly appreciated. From Gustav at cactus.dk Mon Mar 29 02:21:13 2010 From: Gustav at cactus.dk (Gustav Brock) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:21:13 +0200 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components Message-ID: Hi John That is a method created by VS when you add a custom select query to a DataTable in the designer (right-click at the bottom of the box holding the table). As one of the last steps, the wizard offers to create two methods, GetData() and Fill(), which you can rename, and this I do to reflect what the query - and thus the method - does. It is all stored in the xsd file of the dataset as this snip of the XML shows: SELECT CustomerId, EmailAddress, EmailAddressType, Id, Inactive, Name FROM CustomerEmail WHERE (CustomerId = @CustomerId) ORDER BY Name /gustav >>> jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com 29-03-2010 04:31 >>> Gustav, How is the .FillByCustomerID method created? This is in fact my "missing piece". > private void FillCustomerEmailAddress() > { > this.customerEmailTableAdapter.FillByCustomerId(this.karnelia.CustomerEmail, _customerId); > } John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Mar 30 08:59:37 2010 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (jwcolby) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:59:37 -0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Message-ID: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:16:45 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:16:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components In-Reply-To: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAF4D43.4050003@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: So you're talking about using the combo as a navigational tool? We create user controls for this purpose and load them into the header area of the form. Our nav controls have next/prev buttons and a combo that allows the user to select a particular record. The nav control has a handler in the form and the form sinks the results of a change in value and calls a routine to reload the data for the form using a where clause built on the nav control value. Or possibly uses the data for the filter property of a dataview and sets the binding context of the form to that. There are other possibilities that I leave you to discover. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:36 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# Help with binding components I want to load one record in a main form - client, product etc. I want to use a combo which SELECTS the client and on the change event, do some undefined thing to cause that client form to load the record selected with the client id from the combo. Seems simple enough. Except I am having difficulty understanding which of the binding objects hold what parts of the equation. I created a "bound form" which pulls the entire table but displays the current record in individual controls. So for starters, now that I have that, how do I set a sql statement to load just one record? What component does that and what property? Next, I have a navigation widget that causes the form to move through the records. If I only have a single record I do not need that so I want to get rid of it. I assume it is safe to just delete it? Except that object also has the add new / delete and save buttons. Hmm... And finally (for now), have found code to watch the controls for changes and set a dirty flag. How do I save the record? What object / property? Once I see this done one time I will be good to go but I am not finding code on the web that does this. Everything assumes loading the entire recordset then filtering down. Any assistance greatly appreciated. -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From cfoust at infostatsystems.com Tue Mar 30 10:22:08 2010 From: cfoust at infostatsystems.com (Charlotte Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler In-Reply-To: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BAE1E7B.5080407@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: John, We use an IsValid method on each of our forms/subforms and call that before allowing the user to leave a form. The routine tests against any rules we've established to determine whether this is a valid record, and if it is, it calls an update routine and returns a true value to the calling object. If you use the bindingcontext of the datasource and EndCurrentEdit, you can reliably call HasChanges and if so update the datasource. With a grid, the IsValid method is called from the validating event of the grid, so it is triggered when the grid loses focus or adds or changes a row. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:04 AM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] C# dirty handler What do you guys use to handle dirty records? I am migrating my billing program to C# and so have a ton of forms for the little list tables. If I forget to click save after making a change the change is not saved back to the database. Not cool. I have found a couple of pieces of code that do the check and at least tell you that the form is dirty. http://crfdesign.net/crf-design/quick-and-dirty-dirty-checking-for-windows-form-c http://www.mishainthecloud.com/2009/07/simple-dirty-tracking-for-winforms-in-c.html Either looks fine, but I just thought I'd check and see if y'all had any favorites or any words of wisdom. Also does this kind of code handle grid controls correctly? IOW if the form simply hosts a grid, will that grid report dirty and be picked up by this kind of code? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Tue Mar 30 14:00:54 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:00:54 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control In-Reply-To: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> References: <4BB203C9.5090006@colbyconsulting.com> Message-ID: <001c01cad03b$548990f0$6a01a8c0@nant> VisualHG - http://visualhg.codeplex.com/ Mercurial isn't "so much better" - it's different, and more suitable for distributed source control... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of jwcolby Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 6:00 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] Mercurial Source Control Well, I decided since I am an absolute nubee to source control I might as well start with Mercurial if it is indeed so much better. My question now is what VS integration plug-in do you guys use? -- John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com From shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru Wed Mar 31 16:11:47 2010 From: shamil at smsconsulting.spb.ru (Shamil Salakhetdinov) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:11:47 +0400 Subject: [dba-VB] FYI: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance Message-ID: <000f01cad116$c7608e40$6a01a8c0@nant> Hi All, If you haven't yet got collected a set of "bird view" links on MS Application Platform here it's: Mapping Out the Microsoft Application Platform at a Glance http://blogs.msdn.com/jmeier/archive/2010/02/08/mapping-out-the-microsoft-ap plication-platform-at-a-glance.aspx Thank you. -- Shamil