Wortz, Charles
CWortz at tea.state.tx.us
Thu Jul 31 08:24:48 CDT 2003
Scott, Don't be shy about giving a more meaningful subject line in your response. <grin> Charles Wortz Software Development Division Texas Education Agency 1701 N. Congress Ave Austin, TX 78701-1494 512-463-9493 CWortz at tea.state.tx.us -----Original Message----- From: Marcus, Scott (GEAE, Contractor) [mailto:scott.marcus at ae.ge.com] Sent: Thursday 2003 Jul 31 07:48 To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Bruce, I reread my post and am offering an apology for sounding rude. The discussion is interesting, I just wish it had a different subject line. Scott -----Original Message----- From: William Hindman [mailto:wdhindman at bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:43 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com ...JC goes on vacation and Bruce decides to assume his mantle :)))) ...interesting rant btw :) William Hindman ...It's a proven fact that if you smoke a pack of cigarettes a day for 90 years, you'll live to a ripe old age. :))) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Bruen" <bbruen at bigpond.com> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > Well, > > Having had the winge, I suppose I'd better propose a desired solution. > > IMHO, what is needed is a truly lightweight application runtime that > can be installed on various desktops providing the basic > infrastructure to enable a tuple based information set to be displayed > in a functional format suitable for human user interfaces. That is, a > runtime that supports secure, structured, data-only transfer across > TCP/IP and which locally transforms that data into a dataset that can > be displayed or printed. For the sake of the argument, lets call the > data transport mechanism "XML". Instead of the runtime containing a > heavy load of (lets call it) "desktop database" functionality it would > only contain some sort of coded buiness logic (lets call it p-code), a high speed > interpreter and a set of <bold red italic 72 point> B A S I C > </emphasis> UI components. However, I note that the UI components > provided by HTML 3/4 do not cope well with tuple based data, they do > need to be extended. > > Application components (p-code) could be distributed on a download > once > - use many basis. Including any necessary (so-called) web services. > The technology exists today to enable secure application loading, data > transfer and transactional control. We (developers) need a business > logic level development environment to enable delivery of business > benefit software. > > What I am talking about, of course, is an Access with the db part > stripped out and replaced with an easy to use XML based data transfer > bottom end. However, as I will shortly expand upon, I don't think > VB/VBA/VBS/ASP are the fruit of the true vine. > > I have recently looked (very briefly) at the ruby language. If it > lives up to all its claims, my golly gosh, it's a huge step out of the > current fight with the technical level application development > problems that plague us today. There is not one current manistream > development language that truly lives up to the promises of OODD. For > example, VB doesn't inherit; C++ does not protect or garbage collect > properly, Java has non-object typeing; etc. In short, these languages > are still leaving us with buggy applications that are difficult to > support in changing business environments. Developers have to spend > too much time looking at technical difficulties rather than business > logic. Look at AccessD mail lately, if I'm not reading it at too much > of an angle, the vast majority of questions handled by the list are > technical - not business logic level issues. Or is it that we, of > AccessD, are so adept at handling business logic problems that the > only problems we have are technical. Somehow I think not. > > Hence my short query re hta. I really thought this was a fantastic > step forward in net based application taming. A client stored page > that ran on a level of the IE intfrastructure that removed the www > cr*p (the bits unnecessary to a business application) and presented a > clean, albeit very standard, interface. And, while I'm on that > soapbox, who in their right minds needs half the UI noodledust that is > floating around web based apps today. My <insert deity of choice>! If > I'm looking at a couple of hundred, or even a couple of dozen, totally similar > transactions a day I DO NOT SEE ALL THE CR*P JUST THE DATA. And this > applies whether I'm using the data as an operator or an information > consumer... > > I went to the supermarket last week. The checkouts now have decent > sized customer facing screens that list each scanned item as it gets > swiped. SUPERB! I can now see when I'm not being charged the expected > price. BUT SOME IDIOT OF A MARKETER got SOME EVEN BIGGER IDIOT OF A > DEVELOPER to use 85% of the screen to show me, randomly, either a > pretty picture of a landscape, an advertisement for something that I'm > not going back into the store to buy, or a PICTURE OF THE ITEM THAT > HAS JUST BEEN SCANNED. I just cannot comprehend the mentality that > decided that I need a picture of some (digitally enhanced) carrots > rather than the name of the item, its unit price, the units scanned > and the total price. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE ARE SOME REAL 3-D EXTREMELY > CARROT LIKE OBJECTS ON THE BENCH IN FRONT OF ME. I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN > WHAT CARROTS LOOK LIKE BETWEEN THE GROCERY SECTION AND THE CHECKOUT. > I just cant understand how they can come up with these timewasting, > moneywasting, ABSOLUTELY USELESS pieces of, for want of a better word, > functionality. > > My bank, after two years of market surveying customers, finally did > what they were asked and replaced a java based bill payment system > that took 5 web pages and had every damn bell and whistle that the > stupid programmer could think of - including animations for God's sake > - with a simple 2 page (entry and confirmation) app that now lets us > pay bills in 15 seconds not 2 minutes. The new page has labels, > textboxes and combo boxes, two buttons and that's all. It looks 10 > times neater, runs 10 times faster and guess what - it provides 100% > of the functionality required and 0% of the "functionality" not > required. The ONLY image on the page is the bank's logo, which I will > excuse. There are NO spinners, tabs, dancing buttons, or technicolour > dreamcoat iconic > (moronic) buttons asking me whether I want to get done over again today. > > I don't know how much of the supermarket chain's network bandwidth is > being used up by the pictorical polution but I'd wager it's a > significant amount. > > When the hypertext paradigm was first expounded, there were only 4 or > 5 or so widgets. If we expand that set just a bit more to give us > some easy to use row handling widgets, for example a self-populating > multicolumn list that knew which row had just been clicked, or (bliss) > a self-populating treeview............................ > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim > Lawrence > (AccessD) > Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 3:40 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Hi Bruce: > > You have made some excellent points. I am current working in an Oracle > product office. The DB is Oracle but the client end is distributed, to > intranet users through an installed component called jinitiator. This > component must be first installed on each station before the users can > access the database interface. The middle-tier is of course Java. > > In order for any user to access functionality beyond > DHTML/XML/CSS/JavaScript etc. other components must be installed at > the client's station. This is the position that Java now has and .Net > framework is working towards. > > <observation mode on> > The next versions of Windows will most assuredly have .Net Frame well > installed... a very tricky position to be in seeing the current > sensitivity of competing businesses and governments, all of which will > scream 'blue murder'. MS may be placed in the uncomfortable position > of delivering and assuring compatibility of a host of competitors > products, on to it's new desktops. <observation mode off> > > A product like PHP/Perl/ColdFusion etc. can provide no more > functionality to a user than can be delivered through the common > Brower interface. (Interesting aside; Perl can be installed on > virtually any computer and can give the functionality of a super > 'Free' multi-user, multi-tasking DOS on steroids. It's binary and all > the bell and whistles are about 50MB; small by today's standards. I > have it running on my Windows98 station and it is great > fun.) > > Jim > PS I am not a anti-MS person. I personally think .Net is great but I > have to be pragmatic. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Bruen > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:33 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > IMHO Probably the biggest PITA about pHP is its major strength - > inline coding. There are two views held, one that PHP is a scriptiong > language that appears in an HTML file and the other that PHP is a > script that has HTML constants in it. I think both views are valid. > > That said, and to get back to the point, the strength of ASP.net is > the separation of the code and the HTML/XML/XHTML/etc. At least > within the IDE. At the end of the day the product produced by the > script is a single instance of an http transmittable document. > Therein lies the lack of concern whether PHP is OO or not - if 98% of > the output is achieveable through non-OO coding and 98% of the output > is a single instance, and very temporal, document then why impose > object mentality on it. > > Sure and enough, the server side handling of data and particularly > data updates would benefit from a reusable object language - but there > you have PEAR, which I am reliably informed is very OO. > > Drew sometime commented that he uses dll objects extensively in > building web based front ends to dbs. Foine and dandy - the PHP > proponents would rather use scripted PHP/PEAR components to achieve > the same result. > > Finally, don't forget PHP produces HTML documents - viewable on > browsers whether or not the client has PHP. I have a fear that a > large part of .net is going to require 5 terrabytes of M$ componentry > installed on the client side in order to view the built pages. I was > extrememly P**SS*D off to find out that the office web controls > require so much crap loaded on the client side that they may as well > just use the application locally. > > B > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Haslett, > Andrew > Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:40 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Sure, its implementing a couple of OO concepts, but its still a Hybrid > language. > > It doesn't support the four 'biggies' of pure OO languages like Java > and the .Net breed and cannot be considered a pure OO language. > > That said, a large majority of web coders don't know or will never use > OO principals in their applications and wiwo viewsll stick to > procedural programming, so it won't matter! > > Cheers, > Andrew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:57 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Andrew: > > You are partly right but the current version is Object-Oriented. See > the > article: http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/10007 written by the actual > developers of PHP. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Haslett, > Andrew > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:49 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > PHP is not object orientated.. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arthur Fuller [mailto:artful at rogers.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:42 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > I'm pretty sure that is an accurate percentage. Why? Because far and > away the most popular web server on the market is Apache. No one else > is even close. Add to that the Linux factor (almost all large sites > use Linux not IIS), the ease of combining php and Linux (and MySQL, > for data-driven sites), and the cost factor, and it all adds up to a > formidable combination. Notice that Dreamweaver MX added support for > php+mySQL in the latest rev. Php is easy to learn and is object > oriented. There are free on-line courses and stuff available, too. > > Not that I have any current clients who use this combination. Most are > small businesses and are afraid to go Linux, or even to combine Oses. > But at home I have one Linux-dedicated box and another Win2K Advanced > Server that houses an instance of both MySQL and SQL 2K, so I can run > .NET from one workstation and Apache/php/mySQL from another. > > A. > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim > Lawrence > (AccessD) > Sent: July 29, 2003 1:18 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Hi All: > > I have seen a recent claim, have no way to validate it but the > assertion goes as follows: PHP as a server based web language now has > almost forty percent of the general market... > > This claim seems outrageous but that would leave PHP holding the > largest single market share of that genre of products. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, > Scott (GEAE, Contractor) > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:00 AM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > John, > > Thanks for your optimism on .Net. All I ever here are negative things > about MS products (which I make my living with). It is a good point > you make about being on the leading edge. I think the same way. I just > get discouraged cause very few tend to agree with that statement. It > seems that most think that software development will eventually be all > off shore. I say that moving off shore totally won't happen (small > business needs physical presence). JM2C > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:49 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Scott, > > >My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job > >postings > > >for > .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). > > I am seeing more and more .net openings, at least more and more "ya > need the kitchen sink and oh, by the way, ya need .net too" ads. I > get the feeling that not many companies really understand it yet - > momentum. However my feelings are that MS has spent a TON of money on > developing the concept, and are pushing .net big time. If they put > their muscle behind it, it won't be long till it's a "requirement" to > get a job and I want to be on the leading edge of this one. PLUS, the > .net framework is truly impressive in the capability it gives me "out > of the box". > > >You must have read the same article as me (actually editors > >comments). I'm > leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to > me that C# pulls in more money. > > Yea, it is silly considering the reality of the new .net environment. > I'm betting that it won't be long before managers start to listen to > M$ saying that any language is equally capable and stop paying more > for C#. There are still a very small handful of indirection > capabilities that C# has that VB doesn't, and if you need them then > fine, go there. Otherwise VB is probably faster to get something up > and running in. > > And finally, no, my framework has no equivalents in .net for the > simple reason that my framework is about making form development in > Access easier (even more RAD). Since .net is so very different from > Access, much of what I do simply doesn't even make sense in .net. For > example, I have a function in my framework that keeps a record > selector combo synced to the form > (bound) and the form synced to the combo. It turns out that in .net > if you set the form (or a data grid) and a combo to the same dataset, > selecting a record in the combo will just cause the two things to stay > in sync (be on the same record). AFAICT, that is because the combo > actually sets a "current record" property in the dataset object. > > Another example, in my framework I want to prevent the user from > moving into a subform if the main form goes to the new record. .Net > doesn't even HAVE subforms. > > Things like that. > > I am in the process of rewriting something that would "make sense" to > port - my Sysvars. Assuming that I leave my error handlers in place, > that port is really fairly straightforward. However I don't really > have much hope of "just porting" my framework. In the end though, > there is enough work to be done making .net as "database friendly" as > Access that I am sure I will have plenty of similar projects. > > John W. Colby > www.colbyconsulting.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, > Scott (GEAE, Contractor) > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:03 PM > To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > John, > > You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). > I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly > to me that C# pulls in more money. Like you, that is why I'm going to > learn it also. Have you seen any silly job postings like "C# developer > with 5 years experience..."? > > Have you found that your Access framework already has equivalents in > .Net framework? > > I'm not far enough into .Net to have an opinion yet. I can say that if > it is similar to how Java works, I won't like it. I hear that C# is > very close to Java. > > What I've learned in VB.Net so far seems pretty straight forward. > > My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job > postings for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:47 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com > > > Scott, > > Not yet, though I think I will end up there. I'm thinking that > learning VB.Net and more importantly the .net framework FIRST will be > most useful to me. The framework is massive and being comfortable > with that is a requirement regardless of the language you then use for > your programming. > > Once that is done I will probably move to C# for the simple reason > that the polls indicate C# programmers get better money. I did a > controller project down in Mexico in a custom 'C' language so it isn't > totally foreign. > > Again though, the whole point of the .Net concept is that the > framework really provides about 90% of the functionality and it is > used EXACTLY the same regardless of the language you use. The > language itself is really a thin veneer over the top of the framework. > Even things like variables are framework objects so that any .net > language can literally pass their variables back and forth without the > silly problems like you see with VB and C not treating strings the > same way. > > John W. Colby > www.colbyconsulting.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ ******************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may > contain information protected by law from disclosure. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately > and delete this email from your system. No warranty is given that this > email or files, if attached to this email, are free from computer > viruses or other defects. They are provided on the basis the user > assumes all responsibility for loss, damage or consequence resulting > directly or indirectly from their use, whether caused by the > negligence of the sender or not. > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ ******************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may > contain information protected by law from disclosure. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately > and delete this email from your system. No warranty is given that this > email or files, if attached to this email, are free from computer > viruses or other defects. They are provided on the basis the user > assumes all responsibility for loss, damage or consequence resulting > directly or indirectly from their use, whether caused by the > negligence of the sender or not. > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com