Jim Lawrence (AccessD)
accessd at shaw.ca
Wed Jul 30 00:39:50 CDT 2003
Hi Bruce: You have made some excellent points. I am current working in an Oracle product office. The DB is Oracle but the client end is distributed, to intranet users through an installed component called jinitiator. This component must be first installed on each station before the users can access the database interface. The middle-tier is of course Java. In order for any user to access functionality beyond DHTML/XML/CSS/JavaScript etc. other components must be installed at the client's station. This is the position that Java now has and .Net framework is working towards. <observation mode on> The next versions of Windows will most assuredly have .Net Frame well installed... a very tricky position to be in seeing the current sensitivity of competing businesses and governments, all of which will scream 'blue murder'. MS may be placed in the uncomfortable position of delivering and assuring compatibility of a host of competitors products, on to it's new desktops. <observation mode off> A product like PHP/Perl/ColdFusion etc. can provide no more functionality to a user than can be delivered through the common Brower interface. (Interesting aside; Perl can be installed on virtually any computer and can give the functionality of a super 'Free' multi-user, multi-tasking DOS on steroids. It's binary and all the bell and whistles are about 50MB; small by today's standards. I have it running on my Windows98 station and it is great fun.) Jim PS I am not a anti-MS person. I personally think .Net is great but I have to be pragmatic. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Bruen Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:33 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com IMHO Probably the biggest PITA about pHP is its major strength - inline coding. There are two views held, one that PHP is a scriptiong language that appears in an HTML file and the other that PHP is a script that has HTML constants in it. I think both views are valid. That said, and to get back to the point, the strength of ASP.net is the separation of the code and the HTML/XML/XHTML/etc. At least within the IDE. At the end of the day the product produced by the script is a single instance of an http transmittable document. Therein lies the lack of concern whether PHP is OO or not - if 98% of the output is achieveable through non-OO coding and 98% of the output is a single instance, and very temporal, document then why impose object mentality on it. Sure and enough, the server side handling of data and particularly data updates would benefit from a reusable object language - but there you have PEAR, which I am reliably informed is very OO. Drew sometime commented that he uses dll objects extensively in building web based front ends to dbs. Foine and dandy - the PHP proponents would rather use scripted PHP/PEAR components to achieve the same result. Finally, don't forget PHP produces HTML documents - viewable on browsers whether or not the client has PHP. I have a fear that a large part of .net is going to require 5 terrabytes of M$ componentry installed on the client side in order to view the built pages. I was extrememly P**SS*D off to find out that the office web controls require so much crap loaded on the client side that they may as well just use the application locally. B -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Haslett, Andrew Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:40 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Sure, its implementing a couple of OO concepts, but its still a Hybrid language. It doesn't support the four 'biggies' of pure OO languages like Java and the .Net breed and cannot be considered a pure OO language. That said, a large majority of web coders don't know or will never use OO principals in their applications and wiwo viewsll stick to procedural programming, so it won't matter! Cheers, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:57 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Andrew: You are partly right but the current version is Object-Oriented. See the article: http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/10007 written by the actual developers of PHP. Jim -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Haslett, Andrew Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:49 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com PHP is not object orientated.. -----Original Message----- From: Arthur Fuller [mailto:artful at rogers.com] Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:42 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com I'm pretty sure that is an accurate percentage. Why? Because far and away the most popular web server on the market is Apache. No one else is even close. Add to that the Linux factor (almost all large sites use Linux not IIS), the ease of combining php and Linux (and MySQL, for data-driven sites), and the cost factor, and it all adds up to a formidable combination. Notice that Dreamweaver MX added support for php+mySQL in the latest rev. Php is easy to learn and is object oriented. There are free on-line courses and stuff available, too. Not that I have any current clients who use this combination. Most are small businesses and are afraid to go Linux, or even to combine Oses. But at home I have one Linux-dedicated box and another Win2K Advanced Server that houses an instance of both MySQL and SQL 2K, so I can run .NET from one workstation and Apache/php/mySQL from another. A. -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence (AccessD) Sent: July 29, 2003 1:18 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Hi All: I have seen a recent claim, have no way to validate it but the assertion goes as follows: PHP as a server based web language now has almost forty percent of the general market... This claim seems outrageous but that would leave PHP holding the largest single market share of that genre of products. Jim -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott (GEAE, Contractor) Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:00 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com John, Thanks for your optimism on .Net. All I ever here are negative things about MS products (which I make my living with). It is a good point you make about being on the leading edge. I think the same way. I just get discouraged cause very few tend to agree with that statement. It seems that most think that software development will eventually be all off shore. I say that moving off shore totally won't happen (small business needs physical presence). JM2C Scott -----Original Message----- From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:49 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Scott, >My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings >for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). I am seeing more and more .net openings, at least more and more "ya need the kitchen sink and oh, by the way, ya need .net too" ads. I get the feeling that not many companies really understand it yet - momentum. However my feelings are that MS has spent a TON of money on developing the concept, and are pushing .net big time. If they put their muscle behind it, it won't be long till it's a "requirement" to get a job and I want to be on the leading edge of this one. PLUS, the .net framework is truly impressive in the capability it gives me "out of the box". >You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). >I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to me that C# pulls in more money. Yea, it is silly considering the reality of the new .net environment. I'm betting that it won't be long before managers start to listen to M$ saying that any language is equally capable and stop paying more for C#. There are still a very small handful of indirection capabilities that C# has that VB doesn't, and if you need them then fine, go there. Otherwise VB is probably faster to get something up and running in. And finally, no, my framework has no equivalents in .net for the simple reason that my framework is about making form development in Access easier (even more RAD). Since .net is so very different from Access, much of what I do simply doesn't even make sense in .net. For example, I have a function in my framework that keeps a record selector combo synced to the form (bound) and the form synced to the combo. It turns out that in .net if you set the form (or a data grid) and a combo to the same dataset, selecting a record in the combo will just cause the two things to stay in sync (be on the same record). AFAICT, that is because the combo actually sets a "current record" property in the dataset object. Another example, in my framework I want to prevent the user from moving into a subform if the main form goes to the new record. .Net doesn't even HAVE subforms. Things like that. I am in the process of rewriting something that would "make sense" to port - my Sysvars. Assuming that I leave my error handlers in place, that port is really fairly straightforward. However I don't really have much hope of "just porting" my framework. In the end though, there is enough work to be done making .net as "database friendly" as Access that I am sure I will have plenty of similar projects. John W. Colby www.colbyconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott (GEAE, Contractor) Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:03 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com John, You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to me that C# pulls in more money. Like you, that is why I'm going to learn it also. Have you seen any silly job postings like "C# developer with 5 years experience..."? Have you found that your Access framework already has equivalents in .Net framework? I'm not far enough into .Net to have an opinion yet. I can say that if it is similar to how Java works, I won't like it. I hear that C# is very close to Java. What I've learned in VB.Net so far seems pretty straight forward. My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). Scott -----Original Message----- From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:47 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Scott, Not yet, though I think I will end up there. I'm thinking that learning VB.Net and more importantly the .net framework FIRST will be most useful to me. The framework is massive and being comfortable with that is a requirement regardless of the language you then use for your programming. Once that is done I will probably move to C# for the simple reason that the polls indicate C# programmers get better money. I did a controller project down in Mexico in a custom 'C' language so it isn't totally foreign. Again though, the whole point of the .Net concept is that the framework really provides about 90% of the functionality and it is used EXACTLY the same regardless of the language you use. The language itself is really a thin veneer over the top of the framework. Even things like variables are framework objects so that any .net language can literally pass their variables back and forth without the silly problems like you see with VB and C not treating strings the same way. John W. 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