[AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com

Bruce Bruen bbruen at bigpond.com
Wed Jul 30 17:36:52 CDT 2003


Well,

Having had the winge, I suppose I'd better propose a desired solution.

IMHO, what is needed is a truly lightweight application runtime that can
be installed on various desktops providing the basic infrastructure to
enable a tuple based information set to be displayed in a functional
format suitable for human user interfaces.  That is, a runtime that
supports secure, structured, data-only transfer across TCP/IP and which
locally transforms that data into a dataset that can be displayed or
printed.  For the sake of the argument, lets call the data transport
mechanism "XML".  Instead of the runtime containing a heavy load of
(lets call it) "desktop database" functionality it would only contain
some sort of coded buiness logic (lets call it p-code), a high speed
interpreter and a set of <bold red italic 72 point>   B A S I C
</emphasis> UI components.  However, I note that the UI components
provided by HTML 3/4 do not cope well with tuple based data, they do
need to be extended.  
 
Application components (p-code) could be distributed on a download once
- use many basis.  Including any necessary (so-called) web services.
The technology exists today to enable secure application loading, data
transfer and transactional control.  We (developers) need a business
logic level development environment to enable delivery of business
benefit software.

What I am talking about, of course, is an Access with the db part
stripped out and replaced with an easy to use XML based data transfer
bottom end.  However, as I will shortly expand upon, I don't think
VB/VBA/VBS/ASP are the fruit of the true vine.

I have recently looked (very briefly) at the ruby language.  If it lives
up to all its claims, my golly gosh, it's a huge step out of the current
fight with the technical level application development problems that
plague us today.  There is not one current manistream development
language that truly lives up to the promises of OODD.  For example, VB
doesn't inherit; C++ does not protect or garbage collect properly, Java
has non-object typeing; etc.  In short, these languages are still
leaving us with buggy applications that are difficult to support in
changing business environments.  Developers have to spend too much time
looking at technical difficulties rather than business logic. Look at
AccessD mail lately, if I'm not reading it at too much of an angle, the
vast majority of questions handled by the list are technical - not
business logic level issues.  Or is it that we, of AccessD, are so adept
at handling business logic problems that the only problems we have are
technical.  Somehow I think not.

Hence my short query re hta.  I really thought this was a fantastic step
forward in net based application taming.  A client stored page that ran
on a level of the IE intfrastructure that removed the www cr*p (the bits
unnecessary to a business application) and presented a clean, albeit
very standard, interface.  And, while I'm on that soapbox, who in their
right minds needs half the UI noodledust that is floating around web
based apps today. My <insert deity of choice>!  If I'm looking at a
couple of hundred, or even a couple of dozen, totally similar
transactions a day I DO NOT SEE ALL THE CR*P JUST THE DATA.   And this
applies whether I'm using the data as an operator or an information
consumer...

I went to the supermarket last week. The checkouts now have decent sized
customer facing screens that list each scanned item as it gets swiped.
SUPERB!  I can now see when I'm not being charged the expected price.
BUT SOME IDIOT OF A MARKETER got SOME EVEN BIGGER IDIOT OF A DEVELOPER
to use 85% of the screen to show me, randomly, either a pretty picture
of a landscape, an advertisement for something that I'm not going back
into the store to buy, or a PICTURE OF THE ITEM THAT HAS JUST BEEN
SCANNED.  I just cannot comprehend the mentality that decided that I
need a picture of some (digitally enhanced) carrots rather than the name
of the item, its unit price, the units scanned and the total price.
ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE ARE SOME REAL 3-D EXTREMELY CARROT LIKE OBJECTS ON
THE BENCH IN FRONT OF ME.  I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN WHAT CARROTS LOOK LIKE
BETWEEN THE GROCERY SECTION AND THE CHECKOUT.  I just cant understand
how they can come up with these timewasting, moneywasting, ABSOLUTELY
USELESS pieces of, for want of a better word, functionality.

My bank, after two years of market surveying customers, finally did what
they were asked and replaced a java based bill payment system that took
5 web pages and had every damn bell and whistle that the stupid
programmer could think of - including animations for God's sake - with a
simple 2 page (entry and confirmation) app that now lets us pay bills in
15 seconds not 2 minutes. The new page has labels, textboxes and combo
boxes, two buttons and that's all.  It looks 10 times neater, runs 10
times faster and guess what - it provides 100% of the functionality
required and 0% of the "functionality" not required.  The ONLY image on
the page is the bank's logo, which I will excuse.  There are NO
spinners, tabs, dancing buttons, or technicolour dreamcoat iconic
(moronic) buttons asking me whether I want to get done over again today.

I don't know how much of the supermarket chain's network bandwidth is
being used up by the pictorical polution but I'd wager it's a
significant amount. 

When the hypertext paradigm was first expounded, there were only 4 or 5
or so widgets.  If we expand that set just a bit more to give us some
easy to use row handling widgets, for example a self-populating
multicolumn list that knew which row had just been clicked, or (bliss) a
self-populating treeview............................

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence
(AccessD)
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 3:40 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Hi Bruce:

You have made some excellent points. I am current working in an Oracle
product office. The DB is Oracle but the client end is distributed, to
intranet users through an installed component called jinitiator. This
component must be first installed on each station before the users can
access the database interface. The middle-tier is of course Java.

In order for any user to access functionality beyond
DHTML/XML/CSS/JavaScript etc. other components must be installed at the
client's station. This is the position that Java now has and .Net
framework is working towards.

<observation mode on>
The next versions of Windows will most assuredly have .Net Frame well
installed... a very tricky position to be in seeing the current
sensitivity of competing businesses and governments, all of which will
scream 'blue murder'. MS may be placed in the uncomfortable position of
delivering and assuring compatibility of a host of competitors products,
on to it's new desktops. <observation mode off>

A product like PHP/Perl/ColdFusion etc. can provide no more
functionality to a user than can be delivered through the common Brower
interface. (Interesting aside; Perl can be installed on virtually any
computer and can give the functionality of a super 'Free' multi-user,
multi-tasking DOS on steroids. It's binary and all the bell and whistles
are about 50MB; small by today's standards. I have it running on my
Windows98 station and it is great
fun.)

Jim
PS I am not a anti-MS person. I personally think .Net is great but I
have to be pragmatic.

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Bruen
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:33 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


IMHO Probably the biggest PITA about pHP is its major strength - inline
coding.  There are two views held, one that PHP is a scriptiong language
that appears in an HTML file and the other that PHP is a script that has
HTML constants in it.  I think both views are valid.

That said, and to get back to the point, the strength of ASP.net is the
separation of the code and the HTML/XML/XHTML/etc.  At least within the
IDE.  At the end of the day the product produced by the script is a
single instance of an http transmittable document.  Therein lies the
lack of concern whether PHP is OO or not - if 98% of the output is
achieveable through non-OO coding and 98% of the output is a single
instance, and very temporal, document then why impose object mentality
on it.

Sure and enough, the server side handling of data and particularly data
updates would benefit from a reusable object language - but there you
have PEAR, which I am reliably informed is very OO.

Drew sometime commented that he uses dll objects extensively in building
web based front ends to dbs.  Foine and dandy - the PHP proponents would
rather use scripted PHP/PEAR components to achieve the same result.

Finally, don't forget PHP produces HTML documents - viewable on browsers
whether or not the client has PHP.  I have a fear that a large part of
.net is going to require 5 terrabytes of M$ componentry installed on the
client side in order to view the built pages.  I was extrememly P**SS*D
off to find out that the office web controls require so much crap loaded
on the client side that they may as well just use the application
locally.

B

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Haslett,
Andrew
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:40 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Sure, its implementing a couple of OO concepts, but its still a Hybrid
language.

It doesn't support the four 'biggies' of pure OO languages like Java and
the .Net breed and cannot be considered a pure OO language.

That said, a large majority of web coders don't know or will never use
OO principals in their applications and wiwo viewsll stick to procedural
programming, so it won't matter!

Cheers,
Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 12:57 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Andrew:

You are partly right but the current version is Object-Oriented. See the
article: http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/10007 written by the actual
developers of PHP.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Haslett,
Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:49 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


PHP is not object orientated..

-----Original Message-----
From: Arthur Fuller [mailto:artful at rogers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2003 1:42 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


I'm pretty sure that is an accurate percentage. Why? Because far and
away the most popular web server on the market is Apache. No one else is
even close. Add to that the Linux factor (almost all large sites use
Linux not IIS), the ease of combining php and Linux (and MySQL, for
data-driven sites), and the cost factor, and it all adds up to a
formidable combination. Notice that Dreamweaver MX added support for
php+mySQL in the latest rev. Php is easy to learn and is object
oriented. There are free on-line courses and stuff available, too.

Not that I have any current clients who use this combination. Most are
small businesses and are afraid to go Linux, or even to combine Oses.
But at home I have one Linux-dedicated box and another Win2K Advanced
Server that houses an instance of both MySQL and SQL 2K, so I can run
.NET from one workstation and Apache/php/mySQL from another.

A.

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lawrence
(AccessD)
Sent: July 29, 2003 1:18 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Hi All:

I have seen a recent claim, have no way to validate it but the assertion
goes as follows: PHP as a server based web language now has almost forty
percent of the general market...

This claim seems outrageous but that would leave PHP holding the largest
single market share of that genre of products.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott
(GEAE, Contractor)
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:00 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


John,

Thanks for your optimism on .Net. All I ever here are negative things
about MS products (which I make my living with). It is a good point you
make about being on the leading edge. I think the same way. I just get
discouraged cause very few tend to agree with that statement. It seems
that most think that software development will eventually be all off
shore. I say that moving off shore totally won't happen (small business
needs physical presence). JM2C

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:49 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Scott,

>My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings

>for
.Net developers (but allot more than Access development).

I am seeing more and more .net openings, at least more and more "ya need
the kitchen sink and oh, by the way, ya need .net too" ads.  I get the
feeling that not many companies really understand it yet - momentum.
However my feelings are that MS has spent a TON of money on developing
the concept, and are pushing .net big time.  If they put their muscle
behind it, it won't be long till it's a "requirement" to get a job and I
want to be on the leading edge of this one.  PLUS, the .net framework is
truly impressive in the capability it gives me "out of the box".

>You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). 
>I'm
leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to me
that C# pulls in more money.

Yea, it is silly considering the reality of the new .net environment.
I'm betting that it won't be long before managers start to listen to M$
saying that any language is equally capable and stop paying more for C#.
There are still a very small handful of indirection capabilities that C#
has that VB doesn't, and if you need them then fine, go there. Otherwise
VB is probably faster to get something up and running in.

And finally, no, my framework has no equivalents in .net for the simple
reason that my framework is about making form development in Access
easier (even more RAD).  Since .net is so very different from Access,
much of what I do simply doesn't even make sense in .net.  For example,
I have a function in my framework that keeps a record selector combo
synced to the form
(bound) and the form synced to the combo.  It turns out that in .net if
you set the form (or a data grid) and a combo to the same dataset,
selecting a record in the combo will just cause the two things to stay
in sync (be on the same record).  AFAICT, that is because the combo
actually sets a "current record" property in the dataset object.

Another example, in my framework I want to prevent the user from moving
into a subform if the main form goes to the new record.  .Net doesn't
even HAVE subforms.

Things like that.

I am in the process of rewriting something that would "make sense" to
port - my Sysvars.  Assuming that I leave my error handlers in place,
that port is really fairly straightforward.  However I don't really have
much hope of "just porting" my framework.  In the end though, there is
enough work to be done making .net as "database friendly" as Access that
I am sure I will have plenty of similar projects.

John W. Colby
www.colbyconsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott
(GEAE, Contractor)
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:03 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


John,

You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments).
I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to
me that C# pulls in more money. Like you, that is why I'm going to learn
it also. Have you seen any silly job postings like "C# developer with 5
years experience..."?

Have you found that your Access framework already has equivalents in
.Net framework?

I'm not far enough into .Net to have an opinion yet. I can say that if
it is similar to how Java works, I won't like it. I hear that C# is very
close to Java.

What I've learned in VB.Net so far seems pretty straight forward.

My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings
for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development).

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:47 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com


Scott,

Not yet, though I think I will end up there.  I'm thinking that learning
VB.Net and more importantly the .net framework FIRST will be most useful
to me.  The framework is massive and being comfortable with that is a
requirement regardless of the language you then use for your
programming.

Once that is done I will probably move to C# for the simple reason that
the polls indicate C# programmers get better money.  I did a controller
project down in Mexico in a custom 'C' language so it isn't totally
foreign.

Again though, the whole point of the .Net concept is that the framework
really provides about 90% of the functionality and it is used EXACTLY
the same regardless of the language you use.  The language itself is
really a thin veneer over the top of the framework.  Even things like
variables are framework objects so that any .net language can literally
pass their variables back and forth without the silly problems like you
see with VB and C not treating strings the same way.

John W. Colby
www.colbyconsulting.com

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