Joseph O'Connell
joconnell at indy.rr.com
Thu Jan 20 19:27:21 CST 2005
Mark, Sorry, can't help with UK law. Yes it is interesting. Unfortunately, laws are not always logical. Joe -----Original Message----- From: MarkH <lists at theopg.com> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:58 PM Subject: RE: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem |Joe | |Interesting US Law... Do you (or anyone else) know if the same applies |to development contracts in the UK... I hope so :@) | |Cheers | |Mark | |-----Original Message----- |From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com |[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Joseph |O'Connell |Sent: 20 January 2005 18:53 |To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'; |Jim.Hale at fleetpride.com |Subject: Re: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem | | |Jim, | |In the USA, if the contract does not contain specific language |conferring ownership on the customer, then the contractor retains |ownership. There was a land mark case a few years ago where a shoe |manufacturer in Mass. paid mega bucks for custom software to run its |business. Six months later they sued the contractor when they |discovered that their competitors were using the same software. The |judge ruled that since the development contract did not specifically |grant ownership to the customer, that all the customer received was a |license to use the software. | |Karen's case is different. She wants to disable the customer's right to |use the software. If she does not have a legal right to do so, then she |has a potential liability for loss of business/profits by the customer. |Of course, she should not have any further responsibility to continue to |provide services for which she will not be paid. This is definitely a |legal question and a lawyer should be consulted before taking such a |drastic step. | |The discussion of when a client is worth retaining is very relevent to a |job that I just finished for a service company (not IT). They wanted |very detailed analysis of services provided and revenue derived from |their customers. After looking at the results they "fired" 1/3 of their |customers. They found out that it cost more to provide the service than |they were receiving in revenue. Unusualy, but they felt it was |justified. | |Joe O'Connell | |-----Original Message----- |From: Hale, Jim <Jim.Hale at fleetpride.com> |To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' |<accessd at databaseadvisors.com> |Date: Thursday, January 20, 2005 1:21 PM |Subject: RE: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem | | |<while you do own a program> |I presume you mean if the contract is silent on this point the |programmer is presumed to own the code. Are you sure? My recollection is |last time we had this discussion we concluded that, while this is |generally true, it is not universally so. Jim Hale | |-----Original Message----- |From: Jim Dettman [mailto:jimdettman at earthlink.net] |Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:55 AM |To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving |Subject: RE: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem | | |Andy: | | Great advice. Part of the problem is that while you do own a program, |you don't own the data. You can get yourself (so I've been told - I'm |not a |lawyer) if you put a time-bomb in the program and don't allow a client |to access to their data. | | I've never stopped a program working for this reason. If I had to |though, I would put in logic so they can't add new data. I've been very |fortunate over the years and only once have had to resort to the "you |want work done? then pay me what you owe me". As you say, they fork |over pretty quick if they really need it. | | The other thing I've done that helps is that I bill everything by the |hour. No flat fees and I invoice every two weeks. That way a lot of |time doesn't go by between payments and if their is a disagreement about |something that gets billed, it gets spotted quick as well. | | Karen: Really think if this is a client you want to keep or not. |Sometimes it's just not worth the hassle. | |Jim Dettman | | |-----Original Message----- |From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com |[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Andy Lacey |Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 10:36 AM |To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving |Subject: Re: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem | | |Hi Karen |The 'bomb' in the system sounds more of a legal question rather than a |technical one. You ought to get advice on how you'd stand if the system |stops and their company comes to a stand-still. I know they'd deserve it |but does the law agree? | |In any case they sound like all-too familiar sort of customer. At some |point you have to decide on what YOU want to do next. Are they a |customer worth having for the future? I doubt it but if yes, you'll |probably have to grit your teeth and keep asking nicely for your money. |If not then you are going to have to stop them doing what they're doing, |i.e. taking advantage. At some point you just have to say that you are |doing no more work and no more support until you have been paid. And |having said it you have to stick to it. The first time they really need |you, and you won't go, they will suddenly find it perfectly easy to |raise a cheque. It's not hard. The only time it's actually hard is if |they have no money - and if that's the case bail out. But assuming you |do get the August money are there more payments due? If so you then have |to decide if you're ever likely to get them. If not, ask them for the |rest of the money up-front, explaining that because of past performance |you've lost confidence in their willingness/ability to pay. If they say |no then consider pulling out. | |I know it's easy to say, and hard to do, but you have to start saying |'no'. We all bend over backwards for a new customer, assuming that if we |treat them right they'll do the same. When they prove otherwise it's |time to stop your side of that deal. If you do stay with the contract |then at least stop doing the extras. When they ask for a change quote |them. If they won't pay they don't get. | |This is the downside of being an independent, and it's bloody horrible. |FWIW we can all empathise. But you just have to get tough with these |b******s. | |-- |Andy Lacey |http://www.minstersystems.co.uk | | | |--------- Original Message -------- |From: Access Developers discussion and problem solving |<accessd at databaseadvisors.com> |To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> |Subject: [AccessD] The Polyp Problem |Date: 20/01/05 13:14 | |> |> I know this has been discussed before, but I sort of removed a polyp |> from my client abuser list last night, as a woman has the right to |> flip out on deadbeats. That is the law. Here is the story. Client |> contracts for a job; agrees to pay whatever way - some do in stage I, |> more in stage II and the rest in stage III. It is clearly stated that | |> changes to the requirements of the system will be discussed and |> additional invoicing will be required. Polyp continuously *forgets* |> to pay invoices as that is not is department, makes wild changes to |> the system - "Oh, didn't I tell you? Truck A, B or C can not go |> on |streets |> with a 2 Ton Limit? You can just program that in, right?" Or |emergency |> call - finger nail bimbo's system won't work and it is the hub. Your |> system broke it, we can't function, come over here right now. Drop |> everything, run over, and low and behold the cable is unplugged. |> Three hours out of your day, gee thanks. Oh, we can't pay you, it has | |> been a bad year. And that $2000 we still owe you from August? That |> is coming soon. Hello, it is snowing! |> |> In my warped world, I would like to put code in the program that when |> a payment is not received, the system stops working. When the bill is | |> paid, the user can have the encrypted password to keep working. |> |> Doesn't that sound easy? One final password when the system is paid |> in full. I know a geek could break into it and get around the |> password, but these people are cheap to begin with if they won't pay |> and not work continuing working for anyway. Ideas? |> |> |> -- |> AccessD mailing list |> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com |> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd |> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com |> |> |> |> |> | |________________________________________________ |Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.2 | |-- |AccessD mailing list |AccessD at databaseadvisors.com |http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd |Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com | | |-- |AccessD mailing list |AccessD at databaseadvisors.com |http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd |Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com | |*********************************************************************** |The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or |entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or |privileged material. 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