Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at users.mns.ru
Fri Apr 7 18:06:43 CDT 2006
> It isn't the offshore competition that threatens us, it's the idiots who > look for bargains without understanding what they're buying. This is what I meant also, Charlotte. "Avaricious pays twice" - famous Russian proverb - you should have something like that there too as far as I may guess. One of the first Wiseman fairy tails Russian children get acquainted with is a "Fairy tail about a priest and his worker Balda(Stupidman)" - this is a poetry fairy tail by A.S.Puskin - it has very good Russian poetic language etc. - this is a story about a priest who hired Balda to work for him "for three clicks into his forehead" - the end result was that priest lost his mind when "executed" by Balda with these three clicks"... Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte Foust" <cfoust at infostatsystems.com> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > Shamil, > > I don't think anyone intended any criticism or disparagement of > programmers in other countries. All our ire was poured out on the idiot > who thought he could replace an on-the-spot programmer with someone > several thousand miles away who may not speak the same first language > and then expect the only difference to be price. That's why we > carefully kept the quotes around "east Indian", since it was obviously > just a category for offshore programming. With the right specs and good > understanding, there's no reason offshore programmers can't do the same > quality job as local could. The gotcha in that is that clients can't > write adequate specs, so they're going to get junk, no matter how much > they pay. > > It isn't the offshore competition that threatens us, it's the idiots who > look for bargains without understanding what they're buying. > > > Charlotte Foust > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:30 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > >> I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... > Jim, > > That's in my opinion a correct/the best for you solution of this issue. > He most probably go bankrupt soon. It may happen also he will make a > fortune but he will never feel lucky from this fortune made on > overexploitation of others. So the correct Wiseman solution is to leave > him to go on his own... > >> Folks overseas don't really understand how we do business here. > I'm sorry - this is not correct statement, Jim :) > > I have been silently watching the first set of answers on this thread - > just to get the common context on this issue existing overthere. > > Folks it's biased, this context and the common opinion, believe me. > > People do business very similarly these days all around the World, > especially in IT. > The only difference are the hourly rates/wages, which are still lower on > the East. > But they are also growing very quickly here and e.g. in many modern > professions they are as high as on the West or nearing to them. > Unfortunately software development here is not one of the popular > professions. This is because there is no yet high market demand on > custom software development for middle-/small-businesses, which > themselves are in "embryonic" state here. > They should "wake up" soon when Russia enters WTO. > A developer's day cost for big companies here is ~800USD/day - not as > high as there but not bad at all. > And this market exists for big players here for quite some time and only > grows. > > The effectiveness of the design and programming work is quite low in > average in the West Europe as I have seen. > The level of failures in very high. > Everybody knows that this "ever lasting software development crisis" > started when the first programming language was created and it will > probably last forever. And this is this crisis and inability for a long > time to solve it what creates demand on low cost IT labor. > > I here have many times these "east Indians", "east Europeans" (including > Russians of course) crossing my road, stealing my customers by bidding > "dirt cheap" etc. As the result I lost almost all hopes a couple of > years ago to find well paid projects to live here and to keep my family > well. The situation changed to the better now, I have some good work but > I still have to work as twice as I worked five years ago just to keep > the same living level as before. And I can't say this "endless working > marathon" is what I wanted from this life most of all... > > The situation was that bad here that I even started to try to bid for > projects on RentACoder - and I have soon found that "dirt cheap" are not > only "east Indians" - these are folks (young programmers) from all > around the World, many of them are from the West Europe and US and > Canada - they are also going bidding lower than USD10/hour.... > > The civilized overseas programming average rates are currently > 30USD/hour. > They were higher, around USD 50/hour on year 2000 eve. But I doubt this > (30USD/hour) relatively low rate will leave you there unemployed because > to compete effectively worldwide, worldwide effective real or virtual > companies have to be created and to manage these companies, to > effectively contact the local customers over there experienced managers > and developers like you are needed. There are not that much people like > that there as far as I see - I think you can feel safe, at least while > your economy is growing... > > And there is so much programming work here - when you'll have all work > done there ( :) ) then we will have a lot of it here for you and you'll > be paid your usual rates because the rates here will be by that time the > same as there and you will not need to go live here - you'll be able to > work off-shore as well as I can do it now because of the high level of > the current communication technlogy and because my qualification is good > enough go compete worldwide without even leaving my home/office... > > When the companies here go "dirt cheap", pay their programmers low wages > then they have very high level of "work force leakage", unhappy > developers leaving this country in searching for the better life over > there. I have seen/visited such companies here - they state they are > great, well, maybe, they develop not bad software - but, boy, you have > to see the eyes of their developers, many of them are so sad and > hopeless... > > Shamil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at earthlink.net> > To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > > >> Eric, >> >> I won't do that. The problem with that setup is that the thinking > and >> the >> culture are just too different. Folks overseas don't really > understand >> how >> we do business here. I've seen way too many apps developed overseas > that >> were just trash because of this. >> >> And you'll end up paying later as well; ever try to debug a program >> commented with poor English or even worse, another language? >> >> I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... >> >> Jim. >> > <<< tail skipped >>> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com