[AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost

Shamil Salakhetdinov shamil at users.mns.ru
Sat Apr 8 02:33:04 CDT 2006


>there is light at the end of the tunnel:
Jim,

It's Friday there - just yesterday  I have occasionally heard Russian style 
joke (everybody laughed at it here):

"There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel, &(^$%&^%, is 
still lasting and lasting..."

Shamil

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Lawrence" <accessd at shaw.ca>
To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" 
<accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost


> News articles like this show that there is light at the end of the tunnel:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/03/business/03labor.html?hp&ex=1144123200&en=
> d181ebfb30f96ebf&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>
> Jim
>
> PS You may have to log in....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil
> Salakhetdinov
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:30 PM
> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost
>
>>  I'd say to that fellow best of luck....
> Jim,
>
> That's in my opinion a correct/the best for you solution of this issue. He
> most probably go bankrupt soon. It may happen also he will make a fortune
> but he will never feel lucky from this fortune made on overexploitation of
> others. So the correct Wiseman solution is to leave him to go on his 
> own...
>
>> Folks overseas don't really understand how
>> we do business here.
> I'm sorry - this is not correct statement, Jim :)
>
> I have been silently watching the first set of answers on this thread - 
> just
>
> to get the common context on this issue existing overthere.
>
> Folks it's biased, this context and the common opinion, believe me.
>
> People do business very similarly these days all around the World,
> especially in IT.
> The only difference are the hourly rates/wages, which are still lower on 
> the
>
> East.
> But they are also growing very quickly here and e.g. in many modern
> professions they are as high as on the West or nearing to them.
> Unfortunately software development here is not one of the popular
> professions. This is because there is no yet high market demand on custom
> software development for middle-/small-businesses, which themselves are in
> "embryonic" state here.
> They should "wake up" soon when Russia enters WTO.
> A developer's day cost for big companies here is ~800USD/day - not as high
> as there but not bad at all.
> And this market exists for big players here for quite some time and only
> grows.
>
> The effectiveness of the design and programming work is quite low in 
> average
>
> in the West Europe as I have seen.
> The level of failures in very high.
> Everybody knows that this "ever lasting software development crisis" 
> started
>
> when the first programming language was created  and it will probably last
> forever. And this is this crisis and inability for a long time to solve it
> what creates demand on low cost IT labor.
>
> I here have many times these "east Indians", "east Europeans" (including
> Russians of course) crossing my road, stealing my customers by  bidding
> "dirt cheap" etc. As the result I lost almost all hopes a couple of years
> ago to find well paid projects to live here and to keep my family well. 
> The
> situation changed to the better now, I have some good work but I still 
> have
> to work as twice as I worked five years ago just to keep the same living
> level as before. And I can't say this "endless working marathon" is what I
> wanted from this life most of all...
>
> The situation was that bad here that I even started to try to bid for
> projects on RentACoder - and I have soon found that "dirt cheap" are not
> only "east Indians" - these are folks (young programmers) from all around
> the World, many of them are from the West Europe and US and Canada - they
> are also going bidding lower than USD10/hour....
>
> The civilized overseas programming average rates are currently 30USD/hour.
> They were higher, around USD 50/hour on year 2000 eve. But I doubt this
> (30USD/hour) relatively low rate will leave you there unemployed because 
> to
> compete effectively worldwide, worldwide effective real or virtual 
> companies
>
> have to be created and to manage these companies, to effectively contact 
> the
>
> local customers over there experienced managers and developers like you 
> are
> needed. There are not that much people like that there as far as I see - I
> think you can feel safe, at least while your economy is growing...
>
> And there is so much programming work here - when you'll have all work 
> done
> there ( :) )  then we will have a lot of it here for you and you'll be 
> paid
> your usual rates because the rates here will be by that time the same as
> there and you will not need to go live here - you'll be able to work
> off-shore as well as I can do it now because of the high level of the
> current communication technlogy and because my qualification is good 
> enough
> go compete worldwide without even leaving my home/office...
>
> When the companies here go "dirt cheap", pay their programmers low wages
> then they have very high level of "work force leakage", unhappy developers
> leaving this country in searching for the better life over there. I have
> seen/visited such companies here - they state they are great, well, maybe,
> they develop not bad software - but, boy, you have to see the eyes of 
> their
> developers, many of them are so sad and hopeless...
>
> Shamil
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at earthlink.net>
> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'"
> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost
>
>
>> Eric,
>>
>>  I won't do that.  The problem with that setup is that the thinking and
>> the
>> culture are just too different.  Folks overseas don't really understand
>> how
>> we do business here.  I've seen way too many apps developed overseas that
>> were just trash because of this.
>>
>>  And you'll end up paying later as well; ever try to debug a program
>> commented with poor English or even worse, another language?
>>
>>  I'd say to that fellow best of luck....
>>
>> Jim.
>>
> <<< tail skipped >>>
>
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