Dan Waters
dwaters at usinternet.com
Mon Dec 17 09:17:51 CST 2007
William - you are an Evangelist! In this case I literally need a 4 X 4 table, with a header row and with borders displayed, to show a user 3 different ways of doing something (I'm making an on-line Help File and all user have IE). Since I'm not doing any coding right now, the fastest way is the best way. But after watching just the intro to VWD, coding in a web site is certainly intriguing. Thanks! Dan -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:43 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites Dan ...ok, I'll just jump right in here and play the old curmugeon :) ...first, why are you using tables at all for positioning elements? ...that's what css is for and its one heck of a lot more flexible than tables ever were ...sure, theres a learning curve but its quick and dirty and there are all kinds of templates to get you going ...and with css you actually have a chance to make your pages cross-browser compatible ...you'll never do that using tables ...it was one thing when IE had 95% of the market but these days that's more like 70% in the US and tables are no longer the panacea they once were. ...second, Expression Web is designed for designers, not coders ...VS is for coders and it shows in that where Expression Web has one way of getting something done VS has a dozen or more ...and until you become comfortable with all the pop-up/pop-out windows and layered menus, it can be a bear in VS to find what is right up front in Expression ...but that is because VS offers you so many different ways of doing it. ...with VS5 WDE I used to switch back to Expression to do the css and publish sites ...but VS8 incorporated a css designer and has new build options that make Expression essentially useless for me ...granted that the design side of VS8 isn't as user friendly as Expression Web but again, that's because there is so much more you can do in the design window in VS that it tends to clutter itself up compared to what you see in Expression Web. ...if you're actually writing code in your pages, you really need to give VS WDE another go ...imnsho of course. William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Waters" <dwaters at usinternet.com> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites > Well - I'm back to using Expression Web. > > In VWD I never could figure out how to format a cell in a table - > specifically making vertical alignment = 'top'. I looked in VWD help - it > said that I could open the Cell Format dialog box by starting at the Layer > menu, then opening that dialog box from within the Table Format dialog > box. > But there is no Layer menu that I could find, and the Table format dialog > box didn't reference the Cell Format dialog box. :-(!! Even if I just > missed it, it's a whole lotta clicks for a frequent activity. > > In EW, it's just right-click in the cell and select Cell Properties. > > So, for a web designer or a person new to web sites I have to recommend > EW. > For a developer I would recommend VWD. For someone doing both, they can > use > both programs for the same site (but I don't know if both can be open on > the > same site at the same time). > > Other than my not finding the Layer menu, it does look like most of the > same > features exist in both sites - except that the Toolbox in VWD has a > staggering number of choices. > > Dan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Hindman > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:30 AM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites > > ...the move from FP to Expression Web was effortless ...a few bots were > lost, including the nav bot Drew likes, but they were more than made up > for > by the asp.net d&d controls ...and there are plug-ins to restore the old > bots as well ...but once into asp.net you won't want to. > > ...VS8 WDE is FP/Expression Web on steroids ...with so much more available > for developers its like night and day. > > ...your sister in law could use any of them equally well ...in either > program she would want to make sure her web developer had designed her > site > using a DWT so that she could only edit the content areas she should be in > and not anything that would damage the site itself ...if she decides to > use > the free VS8 WDE, she'll work almost always in design mode whereas any > developer would be working the same page in source view mode. > > ...as Dan pointed out MS has made a slew of free video tutorials available > targeted specfically at beginners that walk you through a lot of How Do > I... > > tasks. > > ...its hard for me to visualize a reason for anyone to be using FP, > Expression ...or Asp/VB ...any longer considering the price of VS8 WDE > ...and as far as Drew's points re overhead, I did a site in Asp/VBScript > and > > then redid it in Asp.net/VB.net and the net results were both dramatically > faster AND a good bit smaller, content for content ...yes, there is the > net > framework but so what? ...the contents of that framework and the object > inheritence that just "happens" dramatically reduce the amount of code you > have to write and the add-ons necessary to produce a site that is fast, > functional, and user friendly compared to ASP Classic ...imnsho of course > :) > > ...my only regret is that I let the object/inhertance jargon scare me off > jumping into asp.net/vb.net/c#.net a long time ago ...but when MS put the > Express versions of VS5 out there for free, I just couldn't help myself > ...besides which I'd already ran into a wall with the limitations of > Expression Web. > > ...my 2 cents, worth what it cost you ...others will certainly differ > ...in > this group, thats a given :) > > William > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jwcolby" <jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com> > To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:46 AM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites > > >> My sister-in-law Katie in Rochester, NY has hired this retired guy that >> does >> computer instruction for older people, quite the niche market. Anyway, >> Katie is retired from teaching and has opened a consulting business. >> This >> guy is helping her set up a web site using Front Page, because he knows >> that >> and because (he claims) the user can use FP to modify things themselves. >> thus he will show her how to use FP, help her get the web site hosted and >> running, and then she can do stuff herself, and he can help if she runs >> into >> trouble. >> >> Now I used FP back in the early 2000s and didn't much like it, but I >> imagine >> it has come a long ways since then and maybe it is a good answer for this >> scenario. Katie is NOT a computer person, though certainly not computer >> illiterate. >> >> I do not do web page stuff as anyone who has seen my site knows. Mine is >> DotNetNuke based precisely because I can at least just edit text to add >> stuff to the page. >> >> So for Katie, what is recommended? Is Expression as easy but more >> powerful? >> I can get ahold of her mentor to nudge him in that direction, but in the >> end >> Katie wants to be able to do the simple stuff herself. >> >> John W. Colby >> Colby Consulting >> www.ColbyConsulting.com >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Dan Waters >> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:54 AM >> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites >> >> This is Just In Time! >> >> I was going to spend the day doing some web site work, so I'll try it out >> in >> WDE instead. >> >> Thanks! >> Dan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William >> Hindman >> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:55 PM >> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites >> >> Dan >> >> Expression Web is the official successor to Front Page ...but with the >> release of VS8 WDE there is no longer any reason for anyone who writes >> code >> to use Expression ...VS8 WDE is free, has incorporated the CSS designer >> from >> >> Expression, adds more data controls, and offers so many, many other >> features >> >> Expression lacks ...I still have Expression installed but haven't used it >> since installing VS8. >> >> William >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dan Waters" <dwaters at usinternet.com> >> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" >> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> >> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 4:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites >> >> >>> Also, >>> >>> MS Expression Web is a successor to FrontPage. If you have FP you >>> qualify >>> for 'upgrade' pricing to Expression Web - I paid about $90. >>> >>> To the user it 'feels like' FrontPage, but it does support asp.net. >>> Expression Web leans more to the Designer side, while Web Developer >>> Express >>> leans more to the Developer side. You can work on the same site with >>> both >>> programs if that turns out to be helpful. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William >>> Hindman >>> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 2:15 PM >>> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites >>> >>> ...sigh ...shakes head ...Asp and Front Page are dead ...long replaced >>> by >>> Asp.Net and Visual Studio Web Designer Express Version 8, both of which >>> are >>> free, easier to use, and incredibly more capable. >>> >>> William >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Drew Wutka" <DWUTKA at marlow.com> >>> To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" >>> <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> >>> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 1:00 PM >>> Subject: Re: [AccessD] OT: FrontPage Websites >>> >>> >>>> Ok, here's the first of the two classes in my SiteNav2006.dll. There >>>> is >>>> also a module, for my DBConnect function, which just sets the >>>> ADODB.Connection argument to a new ADODB.Connection, set's it's >>>> provider >>>> to Jet 4.0, then sets the extended proprerty for the workgroup file and >>>> opens the secured database. >>>> >>>> This is the Node Class: >>>> >>>> Option Explicit >>>> Public ID As Long >>>> Public ParentID As Long >>>> Public URL As String >>>> Public Title As String >>>> Public RootNode As Boolean >>>> Dim MyNodes As Collection >>>> Private Sub Class_Initialize() >>>> Set MyNodes = New Collection >>>> End Sub >>>> Property Get ChildCount() As Long >>>> ChildCount = MyNodes.Count >>>> End Property >>>> Friend Function AddChild(nd As Node) >>>> MyNodes.Add nd >>>> End Function >>>> Property Get ChildNode(intPos As Long) As Node >>>> Set ChildNode = MyNodes(intPos) >>>> End Property >>>> Public Function NewEnum() As IUnknown >>>> Set NewEnum = MyNodes.[_NewEnum] >>>> End Function >>>> >>>> My next email will have the Nodes class. The code is a little long, so >>>> I'm crossing my fingers that it will post. In the RetrieveNavigation >>>> Function, I will put '''Customization Starts here for where this >>>> function starts mixing the FP navigation with the product database for >>>> our site, so that wouldn't have to be included in someone elses...but >>>> I'm keeping it in there to show how you can tweak the navigation to >>>> include custom dynamic pages. >>>> >>>> Drew >>>> >>>> -- >>>> AccessD mailing list >>>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>> >>> -- >>> AccessD mailing list >>> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >>> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> -- >> AccessD mailing list >> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd >> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com