[AccessD] Lazy, or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

Charlotte Foust cfoust at infostatsystems.com
Tue May 8 17:48:25 CDT 2007


Shamil,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I understand what you're
saying and I've read books on RAD and agile development.  My experience
tells me that clients get more, not less demanding, the faster you get
them an application, and the changes so blithely dismissed as "no
problem" become big problems if you didn't plan for them.

Charlotte Foust 

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil
Salakhetdinov
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:26 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was
Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

<<<
knowing you'll
have to put more time into changing it later.
>>>
Charlotte, the point is that it's unclear will that "wrong" design be
needed to change later. And even if it will be needed to change it it's
not necessary it will take more efforts to change this "wrong" design to
the "right" one. And even if it will take more efforts customer will be
less reluctant to pay for these efforts because he will know for sure
(from your simple explanations based on his current real (automated)
business facts') he needs these changes now (but he didn't need them
yesterday)...

--
Shamil
 

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte
Foust
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:01 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was
Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

I don't think anyone is saying "get it right the first time", Shamil.
It's more like "don't build it wrong the first time", knowing you'll
have to put more time into changing it later.

Charlotte Foust 

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil
Salakhetdinov
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:19 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was
Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

<<<
And then I usually end up going back and replacing "wrong" with "right"
when things slow down and I have time to breath.
>>>
Yes, John - natural trial'n'error procedure, which I mentioned in one of
my first postings of this thread is the key to refactor "wrong" to
"right". We do that all the time but we often over engineer trying to
"get it right from the first time" and these attempts are becoming more
and more expensive and less and less productive (correct) because of
modern software getting more and more complicated and because of
customers' change requests getting more and more changing and tricky...

If we will continue trying to "get it right from the first time" then
the software development crisis of the last 30 years will never be
effectively solved...

Agile development methodology gives practical answers how to overcome
this crisis...

As for MS Access professional developers (and my being one of such
developers for the last 10+ years) - I must say in my opinion MS Access
can't be considered as true agile development platform because of the
lack of true OO language and because of its limited and inflexible
options of binding of forms and reports: hopefully next MS Access
versions will propose more options here...

Still MS Access of course can be effectively used to solve many
application development tasks...

--
Shamil
 
-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of JWColby
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:19 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was
Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

I cannot speak for Shamil but I believe that he is trying to stress that
the OLD way (months of meetings to pound out a spec detailed down to the
last screen shot and placement of every text box) is simply not optimum,
and to this I agree.  It is my belief that the concept of Agile
programming is to develop enough to let the client start using it, get
feedback as you develop more pieces, fix bugs, modify the specification
as the client realizes that things don't really work the way they
thought etc.  

I also think that most of us using Access as a tool do Agile Development
simply because of the environment that we work in, "gotta have something
NOW to work with even if it is not optimum".  

And I do believe in doing it "right" where "right" can be ascertained
and "right" will not set the project back by weeks or months.  And then
there are times when "wrong" is a necessary step on the way to "right".
I can't count the times I have done a "get them something to work with"
step because "right" would simply take longer than they have.  And then
I usually end up going back and replacing "wrong" with "right" when
things slow down and I have time to breath.

John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
www.ColbyConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:24 AM
To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was
Re:When to UseaJunctionTable

Hi Shamil

Charlotte can certainly speak for herself, but I think she wishes to
stress that doing it right the first time is optimum. And "right" - in
my opinion - is always to be a little ahead of the client. Your
experience will tell what the client's next step/wish could be, and then
you program to be prepared.
To create a child table takes so little time for us so if I can foresee
it will be needed later, I just create it. What's more important is,
that some clients regard you as "the expert" and they expect you to be
ahead of their minds and to suggest possible improvements to their
specifications.

I'm quite sure that this is the way you - and probably most of our
fellow listers - actually operate, so it is more a comment on the lazy
"just create in the fastest possible way what the client exactly
requests without a glimse on the future".

/gustav

>>> shamil at users.mns.ru 07-05-2007 18:35 >>>
Charlotte,

That would have been great if we have been able to develop a database
model, a software functionality,... once then deliver it and then forget
it...

But "the only constant thing in the modern software development is the
constant change"...

--
Shamil

--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com

--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com

--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com

--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com




More information about the AccessD mailing list