Charlotte Foust
cfoust at infostatsystems.com
Tue May 8 17:48:25 CDT 2007
Shamil, We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I understand what you're saying and I've read books on RAD and agile development. My experience tells me that clients get more, not less demanding, the faster you get them an application, and the changes so blithely dismissed as "no problem" become big problems if you didn't plan for them. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:26 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable <<< knowing you'll have to put more time into changing it later. >>> Charlotte, the point is that it's unclear will that "wrong" design be needed to change later. And even if it will be needed to change it it's not necessary it will take more efforts to change this "wrong" design to the "right" one. And even if it will take more efforts customer will be less reluctant to pay for these efforts because he will know for sure (from your simple explanations based on his current real (automated) business facts') he needs these changes now (but he didn't need them yesterday)... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 7:01 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable I don't think anyone is saying "get it right the first time", Shamil. It's more like "don't build it wrong the first time", knowing you'll have to put more time into changing it later. Charlotte Foust -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:19 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable <<< And then I usually end up going back and replacing "wrong" with "right" when things slow down and I have time to breath. >>> Yes, John - natural trial'n'error procedure, which I mentioned in one of my first postings of this thread is the key to refactor "wrong" to "right". We do that all the time but we often over engineer trying to "get it right from the first time" and these attempts are becoming more and more expensive and less and less productive (correct) because of modern software getting more and more complicated and because of customers' change requests getting more and more changing and tricky... If we will continue trying to "get it right from the first time" then the software development crisis of the last 30 years will never be effectively solved... Agile development methodology gives practical answers how to overcome this crisis... As for MS Access professional developers (and my being one of such developers for the last 10+ years) - I must say in my opinion MS Access can't be considered as true agile development platform because of the lack of true OO language and because of its limited and inflexible options of binding of forms and reports: hopefully next MS Access versions will propose more options here... Still MS Access of course can be effectively used to solve many application development tasks... -- Shamil -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of JWColby Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:19 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable I cannot speak for Shamil but I believe that he is trying to stress that the OLD way (months of meetings to pound out a spec detailed down to the last screen shot and placement of every text box) is simply not optimum, and to this I agree. It is my belief that the concept of Agile programming is to develop enough to let the client start using it, get feedback as you develop more pieces, fix bugs, modify the specification as the client realizes that things don't really work the way they thought etc. I also think that most of us using Access as a tool do Agile Development simply because of the environment that we work in, "gotta have something NOW to work with even if it is not optimum". And I do believe in doing it "right" where "right" can be ascertained and "right" will not set the project back by weeks or months. And then there are times when "wrong" is a necessary step on the way to "right". I can't count the times I have done a "get them something to work with" step because "right" would simply take longer than they have. And then I usually end up going back and replacing "wrong" with "right" when things slow down and I have time to breath. John W. Colby Colby Consulting www.ColbyConsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Gustav Brock Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:24 AM To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [AccessD] Lazy,or Agile: that is the question... - Was Re:When to UseaJunctionTable Hi Shamil Charlotte can certainly speak for herself, but I think she wishes to stress that doing it right the first time is optimum. And "right" - in my opinion - is always to be a little ahead of the client. Your experience will tell what the client's next step/wish could be, and then you program to be prepared. To create a child table takes so little time for us so if I can foresee it will be needed later, I just create it. What's more important is, that some clients regard you as "the expert" and they expect you to be ahead of their minds and to suggest possible improvements to their specifications. I'm quite sure that this is the way you - and probably most of our fellow listers - actually operate, so it is more a comment on the lazy "just create in the fastest possible way what the client exactly requests without a glimse on the future". /gustav >>> shamil at users.mns.ru 07-05-2007 18:35 >>> Charlotte, That would have been great if we have been able to develop a database model, a software functionality,... once then deliver it and then forget it... But "the only constant thing in the modern software development is the constant change"... -- Shamil -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com