[AccessD] Database Patent

jwcolby jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com
Mon Sep 10 11:18:13 CDT 2007


>I think a patent is only as good as the lawyers you can afford.

Or can't afford as the case may be.  See the lawyer's reply.  ;-) 


John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
www.ColbyConsulting.com 
-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Susan Harkins
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:06 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

Thanks Charlotte -- I wanted to say the same thing days ago, but just
listened instead. I'm in a rather unique position because I write about
code. You can't copyright code, although... some will tell you can. You can
copyright the method in which you share the code -- like a recipe, but you
can't copyright the actual code. Authors and developers that tell you they
own code and warn you that if you can't use it independently of them are
blowing smoke. Applications and solutions are definitely copyrightable, but
even then, all someone has to do is change something just a bit, and
wa-la... a new solution. We see this everyday on this list -- given the same
problem, we see different solutions, but often, the same exact solution from
several people. You can't claim that as your own, although you can claim the
finished product as your own and even protect it through licensing. 

A patent really seems like overkill on any kind of code-dependent solution,
but not sure it even matters. Nicholas Roosevelt, not Robert Fulton,
invented and even patented the side paddle steamboat apparatus, but nobody
knows that or even cares and he never made a dime from it because the
"technology" exploded -- to have chased it would've cost him more money than
he would've made in restitution. 

I think a patent is only as good as the lawyers you can afford. 

Susan H. 

Jack,

Thanks for clarifying the situation. The client may have the greatest thing
since sliced bread, but it's unlikely to be unique.  Most of us don't bother
with copyright/patent applications because any competent programmer could
come up with virtually identical code for the same problem.  It isn't so
much that it's in public domain as that there are a finite number of ways to
deal effectively with a problem, and the developer community tends to share
their methods, so eventually the code is homogenized into something we could
all claim as our own.  If the client created a database engine, that's a
different product entirely, but I suspect you've been sold a pup.

Charlotte Foust 

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jack Stone
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:03 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

All,

Hello, my name is Jack Stone, new to this forum.  I am the patent,
trademark, and copyright attorney that Rocky referred to that has the client
who got the subject patent, and on whose patent my name is listed as the
attorney of record.  First, I want to express how extremely impressed I am,
not only with the vast wealth of knowledge you guys collectively have, but
also with how you are all so willing to take the time to share it, for which
I am very grateful.

As a patent attorney, I am certainly no expert in databases.  I just
represent a client before the Patent Office with whatever invention he/she
has, and do my level best to get a patent for them.  And with all the prior
art that is apparently out there, I guess I did a good job with this one.

So while I may not be an expert in databases, after reading the myriad of
email responses that this patent has elicited, I am starting get the
distinct impression that just maybe the Patent Office granted a patent that
should not have been granted (it would not be the first time).
However, in the defense of the Patent Office, when deciding on novelty (and
"non-obviousness"), all the "prior art" they generally consider, or have the
resources to consider, are other patents at the Patent Office.
Hence, what some responses have alluded to as many people not pursuing
patents when they could have, and as a result, the Patent Office not being
fully aware of all the technology out there when granting a patent is,
unfortunately, correct.  If an inventor is aware of any prior art, he does
have a duty to disclose it to the Patent Office, but my client was evidently
not aware of any (he needs to join your forum).

Having said all that, if the invention/technology is out there, but is not
in the public domain, i.e., is kept as a trade secret, then it may be
possible for a second inventor to get a patent on the invention if he/she
subsequently independently develops it, and then charge the earlier inventor
using it as a trade secret with infringement.  Classic example is if someone
independently comes up with the formula for Coca Cola, they could get a
patent on it and shut down Coca Cola (that is, if they didn't have an
"unfortunate" accident and end up face down in a ditch somewhere).  But it
sounds like the prior technology has not been kept as a trade secret, so my
client may be SOL on that count.

But the patent may still have some nuisance value, that is, even if it could
ultimately be invalidated, it may cost a defendant a million dollars to do
that, and so such a defendant may instead settle for $250,000 to be rid of
it or even buy it.  Who knows?  I have seen stranger things happen.

In this case, the client defaulted on payment of about $40,000 to our firm,
and we obtained a court judgment against him for that amount.  The client
says he cannot pay us, so maybe we would be trying to squeeze blood from a
turnip, which ain't gonna happen.  So we were considering obtaining title to
the patent, if it has any value.  If it did, and any of you could help us
distill that value from it, we would be pleased to let you keep whatever we
can get for the patent in excess of the $40,000, or maybe work out some
other arrangement if you would prefer.

BTW, FWIW, my client is actually using the patented idea at
http://www.webmusicdb.com, not exactly another YouTube.

Re Drew's comment below, he is absolutely correct (except for a "design"
which can sometimes be copyrighted), i.e., "You can't copyright an idea.
You can copyright code, at any time, or a book (Actually, the text within
the book).  But an idea or design must be patented."  But the problem with a
copyright, especially on code, is that it is much more narrow than a patent,
and so is generally easy to design around, and so is generally of little
value.  So we almost always advise clients to seek a patent on a function
performed by code, and rarely ever advise someone to seek a copyright on
code.

Jack Stone
Scheef & Stone, L.L.P.
5956 Sherry Lane, Suite 1400
Dallas, Texas 75225
Direct 214.706.4207
Main 214.706.4200
Fax 214.706.4242
jack.stone at scheefandstone.com

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:00 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

You can't copyright an idea.  You can copyright code, at any time, or a book
(Actually, the text within the book).  But an idea or design must be
patented.

Drew

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Julie Reardon
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 10:16 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

I'm really surprised that the US patent office granted this patent.
Maybe
no one else ever applied for one?

I do have four databases registered with the US copyright office.  It seems
to me that the copyright office may be a better alternative for this type of
application.

Julie Reardon
PRO-SOFT of NY, Inc.
44 Public Square, Suite 5
Watertown, NY  13601
Phone:  315.785.0319
Fax:  315.785.0323
NYS IT Contract#CMT026A
NYS Certified Woman-Owned Business
www.pro-soft.net

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Charlotte Foust
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 11:08 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

Rocky,

I have to chime in on this because it doesn't sound new to me either.  I
didn't even think such a concept could be patented, since there are built-in
provisions in most, is not all, database languages for adding or dropping
fields, changing datatypes, etc. I have to wonder what kind of database
experience this gentleman has, based on his stated assumptions.

Charlotte Foust

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin at
Beach Access Software
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:18 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Cc: 'Jack Stone'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

Shamil:

Thanks for your response.  So you see nothing  unique in this patent?
(BTW, the patent is not pending, but has been granted.) Does this look like
"old"
technology to you?  Is it obsolete technology based on what you describe
below as the current methods of implementing changes in the datamodel?

Just out of curiosity - So during the time that the new datamodel is being
tested in the "shadow" database, am I correct in assuming that the real-time
changes that are going on in the production database are also happening in
the "shadow" database?  That it's a mirror?

Rocky



 	
	

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil
Salakhetdinov
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:55 PM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Database Patent

Rocky,

I'd think that all the ideas on different adaptable database structures on
conceptual, logical, physical levels were invented in 70-ies-80ies.
Maybe even 60-ies when first flat file/VSAM/hierarchical databases were
introduced and used...

There were zillion of articles written in scientific areas, there were many
research projects - I'd suppose that all these ideas are free to use because
they came from open sources as a result of research of many
scientists/researchers from many countries and these ideas have been since
implemented in many free and commercials DBMSs we use these days...

If I did get correctly the subject pending patent idea - it reminds me the
principle, which is the core principle of implementing what is called ADABAS
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adabas ...

I'd also note that there is no any reliable company these days which would
put its online database into maintenance mode for more that a couple of
minutes and only in very unforeseen contexts: I mean when datamodel changes
happen they are done on a shadow copy of the main database(s), then these
changes all are tested online in what is usually called UAT environments
(User Acceptance Test) - when all the tests pass then in a fraction of
second the main database is "replaced" with its upgraded shadow copy - e.g.
for properly developed ASP.NET 2.0 application switching backends can be
done by just fixing one web.config file - even switching from say MS Access
to MS SQL to Oracle backend - of course for the latter switch there should
be also DAL level code replacement but again it can be done in "hot" mode if
that will be requested and paid for the development of such "hot" mode
switching... )

--
Shamil
 
-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Rocky Smolin at
Beach Access Software
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:48 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: [AccessD] Database Patent

Dear List:
 
A client who is a patent and trademark attorney is interested in opinions on
a patent - basically it's a way to update databases on-the-fly by
disconnecting the data from the data definition. 
 
You can download the patent by going to this web page: 

http://www.pat2pdf.org/
 

and entering the patent number 7003524.

I guess I'm looking for opinions on whether this is a solution to a problem
that exists and whether there is something of value in this approach. 

I know there's some deep database design talent on this list so I'm thinking
this is the best place to start the research.

Here's a teaser.  From the patent:

TECHNICAL FIELD

The invention relates generally to databases and, more particularly, to the
underlying schematic structure of databases.

BACKGROUND

Large databases running in publicly accessible environments are notorious
for their inability to accommodate change. In today's world of massive
access to large databases via the Internet, it is increasingly common to
encounter messages to the effect of "database is down for maintenance"
instead of the actual data requested.

In a conventional database environment, when a change needs to be made to
the schematic structure of a database, the data in the database must be
extracted from the database in the old structure and re-written to the
database in the new structure. If new data were to be inserted into the
database while said changes were being effected, it could cause
unpredictable effects to the database. Such effects could include corruption
of pre-existing data, misapplication of database changes, misalignment of
data relative to internal data boundaries, or any number of problems that
could render the database effectively incoherent. Such results are untenable
in most live database deployments.

Conventionally, the most common solution to the problem of updating during
changes to the schematic structure is to simply disallow it.

Conventional databases also require a tight bind between the data type and
the data storage. Users require that the data they request be presented in a
manner consistent with the expected usage of the data.
For example, a date may be stored in the database as a string of decimal
digits (e.g., 20010303), but to present the data to the user in its raw form
would be unacceptable. A conventional computer user requires that it be
presented in a manner consistent with its usage (e.g., Saturday, 3, Mar.
2001. In order for the date to be presented in a manner consistent with its
usage, the database must carry type-related information along with each unit
of data.

Binding between data and type is conventionally accomplished by organizing
the data into metaphorical rows and columns. Rows of data are divided into
pre-defined columns, where each column represents a particular data type
and/or use of the data. Such data/type binding allows a computer program to
make assumptions and inferences about the data appropriate to its type.
Additional rows of data may be readily added to a database. However, if a
new column is desired in a database, then the database must typically be
made unavailable for a period of time so that data can be converted into the
new format. Modifications to pre-existing programs would have to be made,
along with the requisite testing and debugging necessary to validate any new
code.

It is also worth noting that in conventional databases there tends to be
redundancy in the storage of data. For example, cities, states, zip codes,
and telephone area codes may be repeated among a number of rows of data.
Such redundancy results in inefficient use of memory.

In light of the foregoing, it is apparent that there is a need for a system
and method for modifying the schematic structure of a database without
making the database unavailable for the entry of new data.
Preferably, such a system and method would, among other things, also
minimize redundancy of data in a database.

SUMMARY

The present invention, accordingly, provides a database in which an
application program accesses data stored in a records data set (RDS) and a
categories data set (CDS). The RDS contains at least one RDS entry having a
data field configured for representing data. The CDS contains at least one
CDS entry configured for being associated with at least one RDS entry and
having at least one data type field sufficient to describe the type of data
contained by the at least one associated RDS entry.

The invention thus provides a database whereby data is isolated from its
definition, thus avoiding the problems associated with the rows-and-columns
model enumerated above, and permits the underlying schematic form of the
database to be changed based on modifications to the CDS, without requiring
any actual changes to the schematic structure of the RDS or the underlying
database. By virtue of this same isolation it is also possible to reduce
data redundancy with varying levels of granularity and create an
object-oriented data model.


MTIA

Rocky

 	
	

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