[dba-Tech] Phonographs to CDs

Hi Erwin

Thanks for the useful tips! As a former audio engineer I can fully
support your comments on sound quality and often wonder why people
accept things like MP3 for anything else than simple pop music with 6
dB variance in volume, ringtones for mobile phones, and the like.

Also, external equipment is really needed; there simply is too much
noise inside a pc.

As for the audio gear, TerraTec has some nice components. And to all
of you: go and buy some decent speakers for your pc - for a few
hundreds USD/EUR you nowadays can get a nice brandnamed set from say,
Altec, Sony, or Teac.

What recording/editing software did you decide for?

/gustav


> Date: 2004-05-15 23:34


> I have been expanding my computer to put all my collection on pc.
> I finalised my cd collection (about 6000) songs and have done some
> testing to put my vinyll on computer.

> The vinyll is quiet a job... 2000 singles and about 1000
> albums/maxi's...
> I'm not gonna do all of them (bougth a lot of crap in my DJ period) but
> propably my favorites and populars..
> One could call me a sound purist, I disagree with that, I just want to
> listen to music as it was intented, that not purist or what?

> So to get to the point, MP3 is awfull, I get headeach listening to it, I
> tast metal in my mouth when listening to it....MP3 is terrible for
> music. The sound quality is so poor...
> And its not only MP3 infact I tested WMA-lossy to and they both sound
> horrible (at any bitrate).
> But I do understand it has some advanteges and is some situations its
> good. But rather due to a lack of... 
> For example an MP3 on regular pc speakers can be reasonable. This is
> only due the fact that PC speakers are very limited in frequency range,
> so you don't here whats missing because the speakers can't reproduce it
> anyway...
> Same thing for a walkman headphone. Plug in a better headphone and you
> gonna hear what you miss.

> I used to be a DJ (long long ago) I always learned to keep your source
> always as good as posible.
> Therefor I decided not to use any lossy compression to put my collection
> on computer.
> A file created with a lossy compression can NEVER reproduce the
> original.
> A lossy compression (like MP3/4, OGG, WMA-Lossy) will always cut out
> pieces of your music and/or combine your stereo sound in to mono when it
> thinks it appropriate.
> Play a MP3 loud and you gonna hear easely where it goes wrong. Or play
> the cd and MP3 at the same time and cross over between both.

> So when I decided to only use a LossLess compression you don't have much
> choises.
> WAV (but that's no compression)
> WMA Lossless (V9 Media player change in options)
> I believe there is also a Professionel compression called AAC or ACC.
> The compression used for DAB (digital audio broadcasting) is a lossy
> compression (since it bandwith is limited)

> Cause WMA Lossless file are compressed smaller than WAV, my choice was
> clear (since no other).
> Ofcours the compression rate is not that good compared to MPx.
> So if I convert my WMA lossless to a Audio CD it is in the EXACT same
> quality as the original.
> If you would create a Audio-CD based on a MP3 the quality will only be
> as good as the MP3 file.
> WMA Lossless you can compare with a ZIP file.
> If you create and afterwards expand the zip the extracted content will
> be EXACTLY to the original.
> With a Lossy compression the original can never be reproduced, it will
> look like it but it isnt.

> I'm now experimenting the sample rate with soundforge software to put my
> vinyll on disk.
> I' havent decided yet if that will be at 44000 (CD quality) or at
> 192000. I read sum stuff that sound logical to me. 44000 is not
> sufficant enough to equal Vinyll qualtiy. As you know or not know Vinyll
> sound if far superior to CD. It is the cracks, noise and rumble that are
> the negativs of Vynill, next to the dis-comfort in use.
> So I ran some test on 44000 and 192000 and I can't pin-point the
> difference (wich I can for MP3 all bandwidths). But I can feel it...
> It's smooter, it's like the singer is standing in my room...

> Because putting my Vinylls on disk is a hell of a job (compared to cd) I
> only wanna do it once and do it good....

> I already made my mind that I will use a RIAA phono amplifier (to 10mv)
> between my Turntable and my computer. No other equipment (like amp or
> mixer) to avoid sound change and/or added noise.
> Short cables (always important).
> Next to that a good sound card is important. Most soundcards are
> equipped with a cheap AD convertor that produce noise. I bought a
> multiport AD sound card from terratec with external AD convertors.
> A computers produces a lot of electrical interference inside the box.

> I tried several softs (Including Roxy, Microsoft Plus Analog recorder,
> some stuff I downloaded and Soundforge). Soundforge is my prefered, but
> I find it very expensive for what it is and for that use.

> Never use a so called record improver (like in Roxio). They do tend to
> remove the scratches, noise and rumble but they attack yout sound
> quality to. And as I already said ealier, but now in other words.
> "DON'T TOUCH YOUR MASTERS"

> I must add another thing. I have never enjoyed my music collection since
> it is on computer.
> I used Windows Media Player and it is the best there is to manage a
> large collection.
> I put it always on ramdom, never here the same song again (unless i want
> to) and hear song I never knew I had. I have a lot of different styles
> in my collection.
> Dance, R&B, Disco, New Wave, New Beat, Pop (in all its variants), Jazz,
> Classical, Opera, Golden Oldies, House (and all its variants), Punk,
> Chanson Francaise, Rock, and probably I forgot some.


> Well it may sound funny, but you can't believe how nice and open minded
> it is to listen to Brahms, Talking Heads and Britney Spears after each
> other...
> You should try it!!

 
> Erwin
















> -----Original Message-----
> From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William
> Hindman
> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 6:00 PM
> To: Discussion of Hardware and Software issues
> Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] Phonographs to CDs

> "I have the usual assortment of Talking Heads, Clash and Tupelo
> Chainsex, too" Arthur

> ...ah me ...I'm a cultural deficit all by myself :(

> William Hindman
> "The world's becoming a museum of socialist failures." John Dos Passos


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur Fuller" <artful at rogers.com>
> To: "'Discussion of Hardware and Software issues'"
> <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 8:28 AM
> Subject: RE: [dba-Tech] Phonographs to CDs


>> >> Why not record them as MP3s?
>>
>> Gee, Drew, most of your posts have led me to think you are one very
>> smart guy! And then you go ask a question like this! Clearly your
>> musical tastes are decidedly limited (by range of Hz and volume, if
> not
>> genre). MP3 is fine if all you listen to is rock or jazz, whose Hz and
>> volume range is decidedly limited. Try an MP3 of almost anything
>> classical, though, and you'll see the gaping flaws in this compression
>> technology. I made an MP3 from Beethoven's Archduke Trio, for example.
>> You'll wonder where the low notes on the cello went, and the implied
>> harmonics on the violin. They're simply gone.
>>
>> Granted, not all my phonographs are Euro-classical, or
> Indian-classical.
>> I have the usual assortment of Talking Heads, Clash and Tupelo
> Chainsex,
>> too. But I have over 100 phonos of Beethoven alone (all the
> symphonies,
>> the trios, the piano sonatas and the string quartets), and compared to
>> Bach, Ludy was not prolific. And then there's the Mozart stuff. MP3s
>> just don't cut it.
>>
>> Arthur
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
>> [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Drew Wutka
>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:31 PM
>> To: Discussion of Hardware and Software issues
>> Subject: RE: [dba-Tech] Phonographs to CDs
>>
>>
>> I am assuming you are porting the record player into your computer's
>> sound card.  They make software packages that will record the input or
>> output of your soundcard into any format that you want.  Since you
> found
>> a 'simple' solution for actually recording them, why not simplify the
>> process of recording them.  Instead of burning them directly to CD,
> why
>> not record them to your computer as MP3's.  That gives you several
>> freedoms.  One, most turntables allow you to put multiple records on
>> them, and when the one playing is done, it drops the next.  That gives
>> you a 'cycle' to allow you to run several at a time, without
>> 'monitoring' it and without swapping CD-R's on your computer.  Two, if
>> you are recording them to MP3's, you have a few advantages.  First, in
>> CD format, you will probably only get 1 LP per CD.  Maybe two, and
> maybe
>> less then 1.  Either way, you are going to be wasting space on CD's.
>> Not too mention that CD's take up room too. However, a CD ripped to
> MP3
>> format is going to run 3 to 5 megs per song. Even if you are averaging
>> high, that would be 5 megs per song and let's say 15 songs a pop, you
>> are only talking about 75 megs per LP.  That would be ~75 gigs per
> 1,000
>> LP's, so for 3,000 LP's, you're talking 225 gigs. This is a high
>> estimate too, I just looked at the folder I just ripped my Queen's
>> greatest Hits CD too, and it has 17 songs, and is only 67 megs.  So I
>> would hazard a guess that you could get 3,000 LP's onto about 150 to
> 200
>> gigs. Then again, aren't LP's 45 minutes a side, which would be 90
>> minutes an LP, so it would be larger then a CD, and probably closer to
>> 75 megs a pop.
>>
>> Anyhow, just looked on eCost.com, and they have a Maxtor 200 gig drive
>> for $149.  Their 100 pack of CD's is $29.  So to get 3000 CD's, you're
>> talking $870.  Instead, get a large hard drive, and buy a bunch of
>> CD-RW's.  Though not all CD players will play CD-RW's.  However, if
> you
>> buy a MP3 player (cd version), you can put close to 10 LP's on one MP3
>> cd.  Going the direct CD route is going to cost you at least 4 times
> as
>> much.
>>
>> On top of that, you get a REALLY nice perk.  By putting everything
> into
>> MP3 format, on a single hard drive, you have a single backup source.
>> Want to make it 'safe' for posterity, just buy another drive, and copy
>> it over.  One big transfer, instead of trying to copy 3,000 CD's.
> Grin.
>>
>> I will tell you that logistically speaking, you're biggest obstacle
>> isn't going to be the copying process.  It's going to be the
>> 'information recording' process.  CD's are recorded on internet
> CDDB's,
>> based on their individual ID's.  LP's don't have that, so there is
>> nothing available to automatically populate the list of songs on an
> LP.
>> Their may be databases out there with the 'tracks' on an LP, that you
>> could have Access automatically rename the MP3 files into their
>> appropriate album and song names (of course, you'll also have to find
>> something to 'split' the LP MP3's into individual songs, honestly,
> that
>> actually wouldn't be too difficult, you could probably make you're own
>> 'splitter' in VB, though they probably have something like that
>> available.)
>>
>> Drew
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
>> [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Arthur
> Fuller
>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 10:23 AM
>> To: 'Discussion of Hardware and Software issues'
>> Subject: [dba-Tech] Phonographs to CDs
>>
>>
>> I am pleased to report that I have finally conquered this problem. I
> can
>> now burn a CD from a record on my turntable! It turned out to be
>> ludicrousy easy. Reminds me of the old joke about the guy who punches
>> the refridgerator to make it work again ("it's not the punch, it's
>> knowing where to punch"). I simply didn't believe it could be this
> easy.
>>
>> Now for the hard part. I have approximately 3,000 LPs, virtually all
> of
>> them in mint or close-to-mint condition. (An Oracle turntable helps :)
>> Anyone got any ideas how I can automate their recordings? Perhaps an
>> illegal immigrant at a dollar a day :)
>>
>> Arthur
>>
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