Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at users.mns.ru
Sat Aug 6 12:16:48 CDT 2005
> As far as I can estimate, he has probably spent 50K and it still isn't done. > I have no sympathy. John, I have the same painful experience. Most of the cases are like yours. When somebody is hunting for "dirt-cheap" software programmers they in the end have the same of higher expenses and very often they don't have any useful results. Of course there are success stories too but the rate of failure is very high when low price what matters not real experience... You have had Indians who "crossed your road" and I for the last ten years had Indians and Czechs who "has stolen" a very big project when I did most of the dirty work, then Indians again and what is the most painful is that one Russian who did beat me by dumping price after several years of my heavy but successful work for one abroad company. I have seen the work of this Russian - not bad but it costs as low as his rate is because of many design mistakes etc. I have seen the work of one Romanian guy who claims to be a manager of his own company and who has found an American partner who probably "got hooked" on his low rates - I'm sorry to say that this code is a mess, working but a mess and its support and extension is very costly.... Of course I did do mistakes too, I'm not ideal, but these are mainly very low competitors prices, which "had stolen" many of my prospect customers not my mistakes.... I see people hired here based on low salary - and these people spend several weeks on work I can do in a few days, with better results usually, with clear perspectives for extension and continuation etc. But this country is a real wonderland - they are corrupted, greedy and unfair most of these so called new Russians who control job market here - the real free economy doesn't work yet well here - they build palaces paying pennies for their workers, I can never understand that.... > I am emotionally torn with the whole situation. Russia and India need the > work, need the wages, need the currency. So do I. Yes, this is a paradox, John, I'm beating with for the last ten years... > It is my belief that the only way that jobs will quit moving is to have wage > parity between all countries around the world. Yes, John, but reasonable parity when for the same quality and quantity of work people are paid differently in absolute figures but that payments are good enough for them because of the differences of life spending in different areas of this World and these differences will not disappear soon, probably never as they exists in different states of your country: I know I need around USD5500 before taxes to keep very well my family of 5 people here working alone, I know this will not be enough if I lived in NYC, far from enough for this my family of five people - so for the same quality and quantity of work but for reasonably lower prices I can do work for, say, my NYC customer, the work they can't do because they don't have enough financial resources(another question does it make sense for them to start this work at all if they don't have enough resources for it there - let's assume it makes sense to make it) - this is what I call the new opportunities - such work made well because I do have experience to make it well, even more I can help to make it well because of my experience - the results of this work can create new jobs there and here not steal jobs from there and "leak brains" from here - all that sounds idealistic I know and you can find my reasonable parity rate as high as USD5500/month too high to be true - but this isn't a "dream figure" - I did work based on that and higher rates in the past, my today's rate isn't as high and I have to work almost non stop - a kind of work to death you know.... Of course my reasonable parity idea doesn't limit anyhow the rates - I would be more than feeling lucky working USD800/day just a week or so in a month and spending he rest of time with my family, traveling , doing sports etc. - but this is my duty to prove these high costs are reasonable - and ~USD5500/month before taxes - I can show what I need all these money for to be spent and saved here. And as I think USD2000+/month is a reasonable rate for young living alone professionals programmers from here - based on that rate they will probably never leave this country they build their future here by their own hands. And they will become really free. And these are customers' duties and fair market and fair competition to work based on reasonable not abusive rates (young programmers here work at 500-600USD/month and USD800-1000/month average in off-shore companies), which create more problems here and there as far as I see (am I blind?) than open new opportunities.... > In the free market system, work creates wealth which creates more > work which creates more wealth - an endless cycle. As wealth goes up, > so do wages. Yes, John, you're right of course, but with reasonable fair rates all over the World this free market wealth growing cycle would have worked quicker for mutual advantages - what we have now in this World: you have a so called developed World there we have a wild capitalism here, very slowly growing economy, with most of the population living badly - we need money investments, we need new technologies, we need talented managers with good experience - we need a lot - but first of all fair competition and fair reasonable prices based on talents and experience. What we get from the free developed World instead of all that ? - the managers like in Alcatel "hunting for miracles" - and we should thank you for that "gifts"? I'm not sure... - and of course this is a rhetoric question/sentence not a question to you John... > Likewise, I pray the same > thing for myself. <grin> Yes, John, I wish you well too! And I think, John, we can work and pray together despite of all the social and religious differences we have. I do hope the life level differences will disappear in several centuries... Religious differences - they will probably never disappear in this World but they shouldn't disturb this World to live in peace and to cooperate... Thank you, Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W. Colby" <jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com> To: "'Discussion of Hardware and Software issues'" <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 6:36 PM Subject: RE: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the highnotes... > Shamil, > > I do apologize, of course "reasonably priced overseas" is true, however > "reasonably priced overseas" to someone looking for offshore work is "as low > as I can get". They don't go overseas to get a price close to what they get > here. Let me give you a (painfully) real example. > > I worked for a company here in Connecticut that made screws. I worked for > him for about 2 years and moved him from a POS non-relational thing designed > by the stock room guy to a fully relational, complex database for tracking > most of the phases of his business. We parted ways. > > A year or so later he came back and asked me to move the whole thing to SQL > Server. I told him it would take me 3 or 4 months to do that. The system > was designed (by me) using all the tricks that Access allows but which don't > necessarily port easily, and there was significant work to be done. > > My quote was about 12k to 15k. He thought that was unreasonable and went > away. I discovered that he had contracted with an Indian firm (in India) to > supply 3 programmers, was quoted 3 or 4 months (with 3 programmers working > on it). Because of their wages, the "total cost of the project" would be > significantly less than my quote, even with 3 programmers. He took it. A > YEAR later it wasn't finished, he was flying to India to meet with the team > etc. etc. > > A YEAR LATER three programmers were unable to do what I estimate would have > taken me 3 months. Given, I wrote the original. I knew it inside and out. > I knew how to attack the problem to minimize the work involved. > > As far as I can estimate, he has probably spent 50K and it still isn't done. > I have no sympathy. > > The moral of this story is that the business owner only saw one thing - a > firm that claimed experience capable of doing the job, who would throw 3 > guys at the problem for 50% of my hourly rate. He got what he paid for. > Unfortunately this is the mindset you (and I) fight against. > > It is not my intention to discourage you, only to say what I see. It is my > belief that as long as there are wage disparities of 5x or 10x, jobs will > move to that lower cost area. It is particularly true in manual labor where > all that matters are simple skills. In the case of software, India and > Russia have excelled in attracting this kind of work because of their > educational systems ability to train workers that can do this stuff, and at > least in India's case, because they (kind of) speak the same language > (English). > > I am emotionally torn with the whole situation. Russia and India need the > work, need the wages, need the currency. So do I. > > It is my belief that the only way that jobs will quit moving is to have wage > parity between all countries around the world. That has so far never been > the case, and I see no sign that it (wage parity) will be the case any time > in the next century, especially with China coming on line with BILLIONS of > laborers. I do think that it is slooooowly happening though. In the free > market system, work creates wealth which creates more work which creates > more wealth - an endless cycle. As wealth goes up, so do wages. India is > beginning to see increased labor costs as they pull money out of the more > affluent countries into their economy, the laborers start to ask for higher > wages etc. It takes time, but it does happen. Look at "made in Japan". > The cost of labor in Japan is now so high that the jobs moved on. > > I wish you well Shamil. You know that I admire you greatly, I hold you in > high esteem and I pray that you find the means to keep your family in a > style appropriate with your obvious abilities. Likewise, I pray the same > thing for myself. <grin> > > John W. Colby > www.ColbyConsulting.com > > Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: > http://folding.stanford.edu/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-tech-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 6:46 AM > To: Discussion of Hardware and Software issues > Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] FYI: Friday technical reading: Hitting the > highnotes... > > > <<< > Unfortunately that does not bode > well for your "high priced overseas" idea either. > >>> > My(?) idea is not "high priced overseas" but "reasonably priced overseas" > against what I see and what I'd call "abusive priced overseas" with real > money going to all kinds of mediators and managers controlling "semi-slave > but effective(?) overseas programmers workforce"... > > Hopefully Andy will not find this thread as off-topic because the rates we > are working at as software programmers professionals all over the World - > this question is really a technical question in the sense that reasonable > fair rates create fair competition and what happens now as I see it - this > is more using advantages of developed world to abuse developing countries > than to give the people of developing countries real opportunities and > involve them in free Worldwide competition where only experience and talent > what really matters. I know that sounds idealistic, sorry (I know Hindman > will not agree - I understand his position). > > So I'm for reasonably priced overseas or Worldwide programmers market, which > I'm sure will create a lot of new opportunities to you there and which will > not "suck and steal" some of your jobs from there and from here - will not > "leak"(that much) the most talented people grown and educated here as it > happens now... > > I do believe this fair market will be created sooner or later and I wish it > happened sooner for me to have opportunity to work in it.... And I wanted to > invite you to work on this market foundations together for mutual advantage > for us and for the coming generations...( I know it sounds pathetic, sorry) > > Shamil > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com