[dba-Tech] OT: Friday Humor: A new petitiontosupportoutdated(?)technologies...

> A lot of talk has taken place here about the progress in
> outsourcing programming work to Ukraine, Russia and India,
I hear the rumors of these talks here. I know about the off-shore companies
here.
A lot of them abuses programmers. There are good ones too.
But they all make good software because they have usually good Russian
programmers.
And programmers are sometimes(often) a kind of fanatics you know. Especially
younger ones.
Ready to work for small money just to have modern computers, unlimited
Internet access, access to the latest legal software - all what is rather
expensive to afford for their salaries - they work this way for several;
years and then they leave Russia forever...
Still salaries in these off-shore programming companies here are not good
enough to work in them and keep well my family of five people. I don't
expect the situation with salaries in these companies will change soon to
the better...

I'd prefer to set up my relationships with Western companies by myself and
to let the programmers I'd work here together (if any) to earn the money
they deserve...

> The only advice you can get is to either stay off dealing with such
> companies or be prepared for the worst.
These companies are dictating here "the rules of the game".
It's not easy to stay away from them.
What "worst" should I be prepared for?

Shamil
--
Web: http://smsconsulting.spb.ru/shamil_s

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gustav Brock" <Gustav at cactus.dk>
To: <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] OT: Friday Humor: A new
petitiontosupportoutdated(?)technologies...


> Hi Shamil
>
> Thanks for the comprehensive update!
>
> You are absolutely right that much more work could be done across the
> borders.
> But that said, it is my impression that an increase is happening,
> though slowly because of tradition and the time it takes for adopting
> new habits. A lot of talk has taken place here about the progress in
> outsourcing programming work to Ukraine, Russia and India, and
> globalisation is the hot political topic because much labour intense
> work is moved to our neighbour countries due to the very high rates
> here.
>
> And sure I remember Alexander. What he is experiencing is sadly the
> behaviour of many large companies acting like they own the World.
> However, my guess is that he will be able to handle it.
> The only advice you can get is to either stay off dealing with such
> companies or be prepared for the worst.
>
> /gustav
>
> >>> shamil at users.mns.ru 04/30 1:02 am >>>
> Hi Gustav,
>
> Yes, I first thought the original petition on IDL was a serious appeal.
> Then
> I found they are kidding this way. Yes, that was a well made joke but
> these
> very talented and of course highly skilled IT professionals look like
> more
> and more "boiling in their own juice" (Russian ethimological
> expression).
> Technology race to feed the "hungry" technology itself. A kind of a
> self-satisfaction devil. Sad story...
>
> I wish I have never programmed on MS Windows and if it ever happens I
> get a
> good and longterm contract for Linux/Unix... whatever will interest me
> professionally and financially and for me to have time to get skilled
> in the
> mainstream development on this platforms then I'd not think for a long
> time
> to make this transition decision. I did program on IBM 370 for 5+ years
> then
> was 5+ years PDP11/RSX-11M, then 5+ years MS DOS and for 10 years now
> MS
> Windows - that latter looks like drained too much of my "juice". I need
> to
> change that probably. On the other hand the choices are not that large
> - I
> don't like Java because its main purpose IMO was and still is to
> compete
> with and to "kill" MS Windows platform...
>
> > Of course, if the development involves a lot of discussion
> > with clients for custom applications, the method will not
> > be effective - these cases demand physical presence.
> It could still be effective when working with Russians and East
> Europeans: I
> did work with Germans and other Western European companies, but Germany
> is a
> very representative example I think:
>
> - it's well known that the IT-stuff of the German companies(I'm
> talking
> about IT companies because I know about them only)  - the stuff of them
> is
> "migrating" all around the country, often living in expensive hotels,
> the
> managerial staff takes just a day long expensive shuttle business trips
> to
> every corner of the Germany and other West European and not only West
> European countries etc. The same happens all over the West Europe -
> this is
> how the business works there. You know that better than me. Of course
> this
> is Germans and the West Europeans own business to keep and count all
> that
> expenses and after all these expenses are good(?) because they pump
> money
> all over their countries and don't let their economies "to sleep"...
>
> OK, you were talking about physical presence there - if I take the
> representative IMO sample of German IT business then I could say that
> expenses to get a developer from Russia there on-site for a short
> business
> trip to talk to the customer are usually less than expenses for the
> German
> IT-staff.(two way economic class plane ticket is usually cheaper than
> internal Germany plane trip - this is a proven fact). Well the time is
> two-three hours more to go there by plane taking into account we need
> to
> usually be in airport two hours before departure but for business trips
> this
> gap should be possible to minimize I think...
>
> And I'm not talking here and I'm not proposing to substitute German
> IT-stuff
> by having less expensive overheads Russian staff - I'm talking as I
> wrote in
> my previous message about opening the new opportunities because with
> on
> average lower overhead expenses and with lower rates the developers
> from
> Russia can work based on (because of lower personal income tax rate
> here and
> slightly lower life costs for comparable life level) - because of  all
> that
> the projects, which will never start there because of their high
> costs,
> these projects become financially approved and profitable when shared
> among
> Western and Russian (West European) staff.
>
> But I still see a few (literally none, maybe I'm missing something?) of
> such
> joint staff venture companies here where IT-staff works as free and
> equally
> respected employees from all over the World based on fair rates based
> on
> real European level life costs here (it's less here as I wrote but not
> a
> matter of magnitude like one may think) - I don't see that. I could be
> blind. But I do know (I have heard that by my own ears) that it's a
> shame
> there in your countries to pay for high quality work the money, which
> are
> good enough just for simple foods and a cheap flat renting, some
> average
> quality clothes and a used car spoiling this environment  - and (some
> of/most of)  the Western businesses here they don't care about that,
> closing
> their eyes on very high exploitation level here and participating in
> this
> "unfair game". Yes, I know these Western businesses here are just a
> small
> percent of the other serious and fair small- and middle-size
> businesses,
> which do not hurry to invest in this economy because of corruption,
> unclear
> business rules etc.etc. (this country problems of course) - but while
> your
> fair business owners are sleeping there your unfair "colleagues"
> together
> with "new Russians" are taking control on this country(wood processing
> industry is controlled by US, Swedish and some other western countries
> capitals etc.), exploiting its resources and its people to the max...
>
> The most of the people here are getting mad of that, they don't
> believe
> nobody anymore, they don't see any hopes for the near better future not
> only
> for them but for their children also and the Western businesses here
> don't
> make it any better the way they are doing business here when they may
> think
> they are a kind of doing charity when giving work to the Russians....
>
> I probably don't understand something in this life and World  but the
> big
> money rules this world, the young people (my children included despite
> my
> efforts, my mistake of course) are spoiled by talking and thinking a
> way too
> much than it should have token about money - money is everything here
> now, a
> child can't go to good school without money, you can't get good
> healthcare
> without money(but even paying good money you can get into a  big
> trouble
> like e.g I got with teeth implant), you can't get good sports (like
> tennis)
> and well equipped fitness without money etc.etc - when one will count
> all
> that expenses then the life costs become very high. Of course I can go
> for
> sports jogging on the beach and eat porridge and cabbage and walk and
> use
> only public transportation - then if I pay all that humble expenses
> for
> myself and for my family then the salary, which Alcatel(French-Belgium
> company branch here) managers are proposing here for a very serious
> position
> of their IT stuff - then this will be enough. And they don't get
> ashamed of
> that...
>
> The state cares little about all that despite all the good words they
> sometimes say, "new Russians" care little about that, Western
> businesses
> here care a little bit more but still far less they care about their
> stuff
> in their own countries for comparative work efforts...
>
> What I wanted to say by all that hectic stuff above? - I wanted to say
> maybe
> it's time to start fair direct business between our countries'
> peoples,
> people to people, family to family, business to business, start small
> and
> gradually growing big enough, leaving out of the board "old and new
> Russians", spoiled bureaucrats, officials and politicians and
> "capitalistic
> exploitation", playing fair game and paying fair salaries for good work
> This
> is possible I'm sure despite the fact one may find me groundless
> dreamer...
>
> There are good money in IT-business here you know. You may ask why then
> I'm
> looking for my work there? I will try to explain: It happened this way
> that
> I worked here for fifteen years after highschool and I didn't even
> think to
> go there where you live when most of my colleagues were leaving and who
> are
> still there, forever probably. I wanted to live and work in my
> homeland.
> This was uneasy, very uneasy I must say with galloping inflation and
> empty
> food shops shelves. Then occasionally I have got a work abroad. This
> was
> occasionally, I mean that - I didn't even think this may happen real
> soon
> and I didn't try to find my fortune there despite the fact I was
> already for
> some time in Internet newsgroups etc. - this was my former colleague
> who
> landed me this project who was starting an off-shore development
> company and
> they urgently needed of an experienced MS Access programmer there in
> Germany. I went there and I got the project with the salary ten times
> higher
> than I was making here that time (the prices difference between West
> Europe
> and Russia was quite high that time - this difference is almost zero
> now,
> except gasoline and flat rents for average block houses flats). So I
> got
> this project and I got into an international team and here where I
> found
> what free (German) world in IT-software house means. That was very
> similar
> to what we had here in Soviet times (believe me! I mean the way people
> work
> as we worked here before Perestroika/Glasnost (I was a computer
> science
> researcher/developer in Technical University) - we worked well, I'm
> working
> the same way/quality now - many my western colleagues find this is a
> very
> good work) except that they were paying good money for the good work
> done,
> good enough to get everywhere in this World one may wish (that time I
> first
> time in my life went to the tourist trip with family to Egypt), good
> enough
> to have free time between projects looking for and trying to land
> another
> project etc. And this was the time when I decided that this should be
> the
> way how it should work here in Russia too. And I still think it's
> possible
> to make it this way. I see here these "hungry for the good and well
> paid
> work" eyes of young people and not that young people and I can say
> this
> people here can do a lot when they treated fair way but most of them
> don't
> believe this is possible at all without leaving this country forever
> because
> of all what happened with this country during the last centuries and
> especially during last 20 years of communism fall and the wild
> capitalism
> "growth"...
>
> So there are good money in IT-businesses here. In big IT-businesses
> and
> projects. But I'm not in this camp. And I didn't try to get into it
> because
> the game they play is rarely fair here. They are often pumping money
> between
> bank accounts for very little work done signing fake projects. When
> good
> work done then the money are paid not to the people who did the main
> work
> but to all kinds of business owners, managers and consultants doing a
> few,
> if any useful work etc. And (sometimes a big share) goes to "the left"
> -
> these are bribes, gifts, presents to land another large project with
> so
> little useful output and so big money paid. This is how it often
> happens
> here...
>
> ...but with well developed and effective joint small-/midlle-size
> business
> there and here there are good chances to enter this well paid
> IT-business
> market here. And to start to play and work using the fair game rules
> only.
> You may get the good profits, immensive market, the best developers
> here and
> you'll change a little this spoiled world to the better. Isn't that a
> good
> goal?...
>
> ...and today's small IT-software programming businesses, a few of them
> here,
> they are just balancing on zero level because of high software piracy
> level
> and because there is no good enough demand on custom software here
> because
> average salaries are small and so in many jobs, which are usually
> automated
> there in your countries it's more financially profitable to use "man
> power"
> than a computer program  - so there is no the small custom software
> programming business here, well paid business I mean (I did check that
> when
> was trying to find a job here - I did check that in the main
> recruitment
> agency of this city and they know the existing job market in details).
> So
> the business area where most of you work there and the business where
> I
> could have worked in the case it existed here - it's just absent, it
> doesn't
> exist here. This is why I'm working on the Add-ins for the Netherlands
> company, this is why I did write a program for the Belgian Federal
> Road
> Police, this is why I'm trying to find other projects via Internet...
>
> I don't want to leave this country. I wanted to live here, work and
> travel
> worldwide, live for a while there, talk to the customer/business
> partners
> there, invite you here, talk together to the customers here etc.
>
> I think this is possible. All costs included on my dreams above come
> true
> and based on less than usual for the same quality work there rate if
> staying
> mainly here. And without getting your jobs off-shore making higher your
> own
> unemployment rate. But by opening new business opportunities for your
> and my
> business, your and my country people. Working directly. Business to
> business. Making real life everyday work....
>
> Best regards,
> Shamil
>
> P.S. BTW, Gustav, Alexander, do you remember him?, the big payroll/HRM
> software
> author and a small software company owner, he is "fighting" with one
> American recruitment company here (this is a huge worldwide
> international
> with American headquarters recruitement comany), which uses his
> software.
> They do not want to pay the fair price for this high quality software
> but
> the chances they quit are low I think - they got hooked with this his
> software, they need and so they are just trying to trade pennies from
> the
> huge profits they are getting here (e.g. if Alcatel or Interl or Sun
> hire
> via this company a skilled IT-professional they would have gotten for
> this
> "head" and just this head only a little bit less than Alexander wanted
> to
> charge them for one year support (and they sells hundreds or more of
> such
> "heads" per year) - is that a fair business of this Amercian
> company?(one
> should have seen the rooms they have their staff working in...) I
> don't
> think
> it's fair but as I see the unfair rules can be changed and are changing
> even
> here when strong and wise players like Alexander are getting in this
> market
> with real applications, which make the difference and which create the
> new
> opportunities...
>
> --
> Web: http://smsconsulting.spb.ru/shamil_s
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gustav Brock" <Gustav at cactus.dk>
> To: <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 6:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] OT: Friday Humor: A new petition to
> supportoutdated(?)technologies...
>
>
> > Hi Shamil
> >
> > I don't find this OT, on the contrary very relevant.
> >
> > It's right that software doesn't get worn out - thus, to state that
> > some software has turned bad just because something new is available,
> is
> > wrong. What matters is if it runs stable and at acceptable speed and
> if
> > it interfaces easily if that is needed (which, by the way, in my
> > experience is the typical reason for obsoleting an application).
> >
> > As to "off-shore development" - we just call it outsourcing here -
> it
> > is perfectly acceptable for jobs where human interaction is not that
> > important. My son in law gets zope programming done in India and I'm
> > convinced we will experience much more of such cross boarder
> development
> > - as your helper add-ins project demonstrates. Of course, if the
> > development involves a lot of discussion with clients for custom
> > applications, the method will not be effective - these cases demand
> > physical presence.
> >
> > /gustav
> >
> >
> > >>> shamil at users.mns.ru 04/29 2:01 pm >>>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm a kind of changing my profession (:)) and I'm asking for your
> > opinion of
> > this my first try to write a humoristic and slightly (hopefully
> > slightly
> > only) sarcastic text - please go here if you have time:
> >
> > http://smsconsulting.spb.ru/shamil_s/idlpetit.htm
> >
> > and have a look and send me, please, your feedback privately
> >
> > Any feedback is very welcome!
> >
> > Honestly, I'm looking for setting long-term partnerships with
> > somebody.
> >
> > The recent my programming works are here:
> >
> > http://www.code-vb.com/download.htm
> > (Help Generator set of Add-ins).
> >
> > No, I'm not trying to promote this stuff for you to purchase it -
> I'm
> > just
> > referring
> > it to show what was done here recently, off-shore, without any phone
> > talks,
> > any business trips - just using e-mail ping-pong and in urgent cases
> > MS
> > Messenger chatting to send short specs and to get back developed
> > software.
> >
> > Yes, I know, off-shore development isn't in favor there.
> > Should I leave my homeland and go there to maybe have better life
> and
> > to
> > compete for the jobs with you there at your home?
> > Yes, the chances to land a better job look much higher in this
> > case(statistics) but I think I can do some very good stuff here,
> which
> > I
> > will not be able to do there because it will cost more because of
> the
> > higher
> > life costs and the higher taxes rates there.
> > Therefore, IMO,  my off-shore development proposal is a fair
> business
> > proposal because I'm not going "sitting here" to compete with you
> > there
> > using "dirt-cheap" dumping rates but I'm going to compete by
> proposing
> > slightly lower rates, which will open opportunities, which in other
> > cases
> > will not be opened at all because they will be financially
> > meaningless...
> > So, I propose to get into longterm cooperation to assist you in your
> > business and for you to assist me in my off-shore development
> > freelance
> > business...
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Shamil
> >
> > P.S. Crossposted to Dba-OT. Will it reach it or not, I'm unsure
> about
> > that,
> > if it will reach, please, don't reply on this message there in
> DBA-OT,
> > please, send me your feedback privately because I'm not reading
> DBA-OT
> > these
> > days....
>
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