From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Wed Dec 1 16:14:45 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:14:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon From ebarro at afsweb.com Wed Dec 1 16:40:49 2004 From: ebarro at afsweb.com (Eric Barro) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:40:49 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Alan, I received my copy of VS.NET 2003 Standard edition (VB.NET) and loaded it onto my home PC and the only part that I found where it was crippled in was the wizard that interfaced with SQL server databases. I got an error message indicating that I needed to use VS.NET 2003 Professional Edition in order to get that to work. Needless to say if you were already comfortable working with how to use stored procedures in SQL server to run your back end processes then there is no need for that wizard. The best tool I've used that helped me get my feet wet in .NET is WebMatrix http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/default.aspx?tabIndex=4&tabId=46. And the best book I've used just to get my feet wet is ASP.NET, Tips, Tutorials and Code by SAMS. WebMatrix is the poor man's version of VS.NET 2003. It comes with lots of good code examples for both VB and C# and the interface is a lot like VS.NET. It comes with ready-made templates that will help you understand the basics of .NET development. In fact when you "move up" to VS.NET you will feel right at home. It doesn't have an upload feature so you will still need standard FTP clients to upload your projects. I use VS.NET 2003 Pro on my work PC and I can move files and projects back and forth to my VS.NET 2003 Std version with no problems. The only bone I have with VS.NET 2003 is that it's cumbersome for the graphical layout part (I've tried resizing the table cells in VS.NET the "graphical way" with no such luck) so I switch to Dreamweaver for that (plus Dreamweaver has an extension that allows me to take a non-.NET form (HTML or ASP) and convert all the fields to .NET server controls). The other thing I don't like with VS.NET is the dependence on FrontPage server extensions to upload your projects. For that I use a free FTP client or I use Dreamweaver's built-in FTP client. Eric -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message and any file, document, previous e-mail message and/or attachment transmitted herewith is confidential and may be legally privileged. 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Users and employees of the e-mail system are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to company policy. The company will not accept any liability in respect of such communication. From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Dec 1 17:18:25 2004 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence (AccessD)) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:18:25 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ridermark at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:55:57 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:55:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: References: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. WebMatrix has a server component that can be used for development without having to install / use IIS. It is a very good place to start since there is a LOT of code available from all over. http://ASP.net is a great site to find end-to-end sample sites or just the basic information you need to get that particular piece to work as you want it. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 2 07:11:32 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:11:32 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2884@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> I don't know if anything has changed in VB.NET Standard but I bought a copy of the first version last year @ $99 US to check it out and the biggest dissapointment was that the Server Explorer will only work on mdbs not SQL (you need the full Studio version for that). So if you plan on dragging SQL connections onto your app you're out of luck. If you're more oriented to writing code than you may not object. There are other tools and features missing as well but it's been too long for me to remember (I think some ASP.NET components may not be included). It will help you get your feet wet but I did find it limiting. If you have the resources go for the Studio. Another "advantage" to the Studio package is that you'll be able to use all the C# code you find in net searches without the need to rewrite in VB (which does not always translate). Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 11:06:57 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:06:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB044@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Dec 7 11:32:08 2004 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:32:08 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 13:38:45 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: Message-ID: <41B606C5.60702@shaw.ca> I just caught this blurb from MSDN Canada. newsletter. By the way they have just released SQL Express Manger the upgrade for SQL Enterprise Manager From the Community - Gift Ideas for Software Developers. Stocking Stuffers? The holiday season is here and there's no time to lose! Here are some gift ideas for developers to avoid the Hoilday rush. Celebrate this holiday season by giving your developers one of the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta products!< http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611003 > These little bundles of joy come in four "delicious" languages: Visual Basic 2005 Express, Visual C# 2005 Express, Visual C++ 2005 Express, and Visual J# 2005 Express. It's perfect for students, teachers, hobbyists, and enthusiasts who want to build dynamic .NET applications for the holidays. And best of all, they're free! Nothing says "I love you, code" better than a copy of one of these Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products! .NET developers writing SOAP endpoints will rejoice when they see what you got them this year. Earlier this week, Microsoft announced the public availability of the Web Services Enhancements for Microsoft .NET (WSE) 2.0 Service Pack 2 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611004 >. WSE augments the .NET Framework by providing support for advanced XML Web service protocols like WS-Addressing, WS-Policy, and WS-Security. Show your developers - who love everything WS-* - that you care by ringing in a new year of interoperability with WSE! Your database administrator will think "UPDATE MyManagers SET CoolQuotient = 1.0 WHERE Name = " when receiving a copy of SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Community Technology Preview < http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611005 > (SQL Server Express). SQL Server Express represents a free, easy-to-use, lightweight version of SQL Server 2005. Why not demonstrate your love for stored and extended procedures in managed code with a copy of SQL Server Express? And for those of you have already downloaded the bits, you're in luck: Microsoft has just released the SQL Server 2005 Express Manager (XM) Community Technology Preview. This tool allows you to easily manage your SQL Server 2005 Express instances by providing a Query Editor and Object Explorer. It makes a great (virtual) stocking stuffer! Griffiths, Richard wrote: >Hi >The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >(developer/test editions) - not bad really >Richard > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > >Jim: > >Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >provided. First, some background ... > >We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >customer >concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in >order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application >to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a >secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development >environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, >(and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a >feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" >and interruptions here at work ...) > >I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >of Visual Studio .NET? > >What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > >URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > >and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for >$1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > >So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >something. > >There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >lacking subset) of the full product. > >Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >Professional" edition.) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >Hi Alan: > >I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >you >look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of >the >options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >incorporated: > >Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >tutorials...and it is free. >http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > >Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and >it >is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > >The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 >070- >9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > >Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >platform to >develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have >IIS >built in and applications can test immediately. > >Good luck and have fun. > >HTH >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > >Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >fairly >significant environmental database application that we have been using >(and >"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >which >stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >simple >Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >grew >and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >Server >2000 - which is where we are now. > >Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or >"something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >becoming >increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So >popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web >enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as >Internet >Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >to >realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > >The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots >of >event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to >command >buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >and >conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >code.) > >The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning >curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & >XML >for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a >couple >of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >"Beginning >VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >Basic >.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >two >books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > >The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >proper >.NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our >customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or >whatever >contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >programming, >I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > >The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two >reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >and >the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >around >with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >appears to >have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > >I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually >done >some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and >opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" >[web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" >edition >has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > >Thanks in advance ... > >Alan C. Lawhon > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 14:54:46 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB048@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Richard: I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears verbatim: Quote: .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers. End Quote: Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications ..." in their description of the product? If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte Foust and John Colby will see it. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From chizotz at mchsi.com Tue Dec 7 15:15:44 2004 From: chizotz at mchsi.com (chizotz at mchsi.com) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:15:44 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <120720042115.3273.4887@mchsi.com> I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 15:56:51 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:56:51 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:20:13 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:20:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 16:35:13 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:42:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:42:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002d01c4dcad$fbc633a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Uh...no, not me. But REAL men do! ;-) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:35 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line > tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and > they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! > (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. > (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the > extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools > and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql > 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 17:39:24 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <41B63F2C.5090704@shaw.ca> Sniff, real programmers don't use any of those fancy geegaw compiler tools just copy con: app.exe and Ctrl-Z when finished or teco vmunix John W. Colby wrote: >Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line >switches... Notepad for an editor... > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > >Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: >http://folding.stanford.edu/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET >Standard 2003 ..." > > >OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being >incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are >like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ >compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in >a >text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you > >still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT >include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework >Version >1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. > >Ron > > > > >>Richard: >> >>I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make >>absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand >>that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime >>environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as >>ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). >> >>What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: >> >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears >>verbatim: >> >>Quote: >> >>.NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 >> >>The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version >>1.1 >>includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET >> >> > > > >>Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools >> >> >and > > >>compilers. >> >>End Quote: >> >>Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be >>something of >>an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, >> >> >they do > > >>use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they >> >> >ARE > > >>describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK >> >> >download is > > >>approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon >> >> >the pun > > >>...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I >> >> >know > > >>this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an >> >> >"optional > > >>download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. >> >>My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the >>"Microsoft >>.NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is >> >> >merely > > >>the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 >> >> > > > >>Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and >>compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework >>applications ..." in their description of the product? >> >>If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) >>"learning tool" to >>help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth >> >> >the > > >>bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up >> >> >connection! > > >>I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that >>Charlotte >>Foust and John Colby will see it. >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi >>The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >>develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >>seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >>(developer/test editions) - not bad really >>Richard >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >>Jim: >> >>Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >>ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >>provided. First, some background ... >> >>We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >>customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be >>purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental >>database application to a "web enabled" environmental database >>application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an >>"affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can >>"play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET >>is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more >>at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here >>at work ...) >> >>I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >>the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >>at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >>need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >>documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >>presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >>ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >>just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >>of Visual Studio .NET? >> >>What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >>Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. >> >>URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >>9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr >> >>and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists >>for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. >> >>So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >>(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >>$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >>Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >>something. >> >>There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >>anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >>lacking subset) of the full product. >> >>Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >>Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >>customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >>Professional" edition.) >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi Alan: >> >>I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >>you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a >>few of the >>options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >>generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >>incorporated: >> >>Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >>tutorials...and it is free. >>http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx >> >>Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open >>source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ >> >>The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070- >>9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >>platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server >>as they have IIS >>built in and applications can test immediately. >> >>Good luck and have fun. >> >>HTH >>Jim >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >>To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? >> >>Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >>fairly significant environmental database application that we have >>been using (and >>"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >>which >>stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >>simple >>Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >>grew >>and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >>migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >>Server >>2000 - which is where we are now. >> >>Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes >>(or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >>becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate >>organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has >>requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web >>browser - such as Internet >>Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >>to >>realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... >> >>The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with >>lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is >>attached to command >>buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >>and >>conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >>code.) >> >>The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep >>learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking >>at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have >>just ordered a couple >>of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >>"Beginning >>VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >>Basic >>.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >>two >>books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. >> >>The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >>proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be >>asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 >>- or whatever >>contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >>researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >>programming, >>I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 >> >>The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for >>two >>reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >>and >>the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >>around >>with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >>appears to >>have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >>"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) >> >>I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have >>actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could >>offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering >>if the "Standard" edition >>has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >>"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? >> >>Thanks in advance ... >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 12:35:45 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:35:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 16 12:40:57 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2957@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> Use MyBase.MethodName? Just a guess. Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From mikedorism at adelphia.net Thu Dec 16 13:02:05 2004 From: mikedorism at adelphia.net (Mike & Doris Manning) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 13:19:03 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Message-ID: <006a01c4e3a4$1e16f820$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> That would do it. Thanks, John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mike & Doris Manning Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:02 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Dec 17 23:46:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:46:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> Message-ID: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From ridermark at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 03:45:44 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:45:44 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> References: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Dec 18 10:12:01 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c4e51c$51a06e50$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Mark, I have discovered how to simulate the debug window. You have to set a breakpoint that will be executed, run your program until the breakpoint is executed, then at that point you can manipulate objects (call public functions etc) in the debug window in a similar manner to VBA. It isn't as convenient but it works. In vba you can simply open the debug window and execute a public function. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rider Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:46 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 30 07:17:30 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:17:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Donations for relief efforts Message-ID: <001101c4ee71$ee336fc0$0300a8c0@ColbyM6805> For anyone interested, you can make donations to the Red Cross for the tsunami relief effort at: https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp You can also Google relief donation and similar phrases if you prefer to make donations to some other organization. This event has overwhelmed everyone's ability to respond and your donation to the organization of your choice will literally save lives. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Wed Dec 1 16:14:45 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:14:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon From ebarro at afsweb.com Wed Dec 1 16:40:49 2004 From: ebarro at afsweb.com (Eric Barro) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:40:49 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Alan, I received my copy of VS.NET 2003 Standard edition (VB.NET) and loaded it onto my home PC and the only part that I found where it was crippled in was the wizard that interfaced with SQL server databases. I got an error message indicating that I needed to use VS.NET 2003 Professional Edition in order to get that to work. Needless to say if you were already comfortable working with how to use stored procedures in SQL server to run your back end processes then there is no need for that wizard. The best tool I've used that helped me get my feet wet in .NET is WebMatrix http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/default.aspx?tabIndex=4&tabId=46. And the best book I've used just to get my feet wet is ASP.NET, Tips, Tutorials and Code by SAMS. WebMatrix is the poor man's version of VS.NET 2003. It comes with lots of good code examples for both VB and C# and the interface is a lot like VS.NET. It comes with ready-made templates that will help you understand the basics of .NET development. In fact when you "move up" to VS.NET you will feel right at home. It doesn't have an upload feature so you will still need standard FTP clients to upload your projects. I use VS.NET 2003 Pro on my work PC and I can move files and projects back and forth to my VS.NET 2003 Std version with no problems. The only bone I have with VS.NET 2003 is that it's cumbersome for the graphical layout part (I've tried resizing the table cells in VS.NET the "graphical way" with no such luck) so I switch to Dreamweaver for that (plus Dreamweaver has an extension that allows me to take a non-.NET form (HTML or ASP) and convert all the fields to .NET server controls). The other thing I don't like with VS.NET is the dependence on FrontPage server extensions to upload your projects. For that I use a free FTP client or I use Dreamweaver's built-in FTP client. Eric -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message and any file, document, previous e-mail message and/or attachment transmitted herewith is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the private use of the addressee and must not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee. If you receive this transmission by error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of email transmission. Users and employees of the e-mail system are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to company policy. The company will not accept any liability in respect of such communication. From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Dec 1 17:18:25 2004 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence (AccessD)) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:18:25 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ridermark at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:55:57 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:55:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: References: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. WebMatrix has a server component that can be used for development without having to install / use IIS. It is a very good place to start since there is a LOT of code available from all over. http://ASP.net is a great site to find end-to-end sample sites or just the basic information you need to get that particular piece to work as you want it. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 2 07:11:32 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:11:32 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2884@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> I don't know if anything has changed in VB.NET Standard but I bought a copy of the first version last year @ $99 US to check it out and the biggest dissapointment was that the Server Explorer will only work on mdbs not SQL (you need the full Studio version for that). So if you plan on dragging SQL connections onto your app you're out of luck. If you're more oriented to writing code than you may not object. There are other tools and features missing as well but it's been too long for me to remember (I think some ASP.NET components may not be included). It will help you get your feet wet but I did find it limiting. If you have the resources go for the Studio. Another "advantage" to the Studio package is that you'll be able to use all the C# code you find in net searches without the need to rewrite in VB (which does not always translate). Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 11:06:57 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:06:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB044@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Dec 7 11:32:08 2004 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:32:08 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 13:38:45 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: Message-ID: <41B606C5.60702@shaw.ca> I just caught this blurb from MSDN Canada. newsletter. By the way they have just released SQL Express Manger the upgrade for SQL Enterprise Manager From the Community - Gift Ideas for Software Developers. Stocking Stuffers? The holiday season is here and there's no time to lose! Here are some gift ideas for developers to avoid the Hoilday rush. Celebrate this holiday season by giving your developers one of the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta products!< http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611003 > These little bundles of joy come in four "delicious" languages: Visual Basic 2005 Express, Visual C# 2005 Express, Visual C++ 2005 Express, and Visual J# 2005 Express. It's perfect for students, teachers, hobbyists, and enthusiasts who want to build dynamic .NET applications for the holidays. And best of all, they're free! Nothing says "I love you, code" better than a copy of one of these Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products! .NET developers writing SOAP endpoints will rejoice when they see what you got them this year. Earlier this week, Microsoft announced the public availability of the Web Services Enhancements for Microsoft .NET (WSE) 2.0 Service Pack 2 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611004 >. WSE augments the .NET Framework by providing support for advanced XML Web service protocols like WS-Addressing, WS-Policy, and WS-Security. Show your developers - who love everything WS-* - that you care by ringing in a new year of interoperability with WSE! Your database administrator will think "UPDATE MyManagers SET CoolQuotient = 1.0 WHERE Name = " when receiving a copy of SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Community Technology Preview < http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611005 > (SQL Server Express). SQL Server Express represents a free, easy-to-use, lightweight version of SQL Server 2005. Why not demonstrate your love for stored and extended procedures in managed code with a copy of SQL Server Express? And for those of you have already downloaded the bits, you're in luck: Microsoft has just released the SQL Server 2005 Express Manager (XM) Community Technology Preview. This tool allows you to easily manage your SQL Server 2005 Express instances by providing a Query Editor and Object Explorer. It makes a great (virtual) stocking stuffer! Griffiths, Richard wrote: >Hi >The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >(developer/test editions) - not bad really >Richard > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > >Jim: > >Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >provided. First, some background ... > >We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >customer >concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in >order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application >to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a >secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development >environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, >(and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a >feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" >and interruptions here at work ...) > >I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >of Visual Studio .NET? > >What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > >URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > >and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for >$1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > >So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >something. > >There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >lacking subset) of the full product. > >Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >Professional" edition.) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >Hi Alan: > >I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >you >look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of >the >options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >incorporated: > >Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >tutorials...and it is free. >http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > >Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and >it >is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > >The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 >070- >9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > >Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >platform to >develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have >IIS >built in and applications can test immediately. > >Good luck and have fun. > >HTH >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > >Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >fairly >significant environmental database application that we have been using >(and >"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >which >stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >simple >Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >grew >and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >Server >2000 - which is where we are now. > >Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or >"something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >becoming >increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So >popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web >enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as >Internet >Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >to >realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > >The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots >of >event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to >command >buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >and >conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >code.) > >The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning >curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & >XML >for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a >couple >of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >"Beginning >VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >Basic >.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >two >books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > >The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >proper >.NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our >customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or >whatever >contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >programming, >I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > >The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two >reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >and >the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >around >with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >appears to >have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > >I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually >done >some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and >opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" >[web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" >edition >has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > >Thanks in advance ... > >Alan C. Lawhon > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 14:54:46 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB048@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Richard: I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears verbatim: Quote: .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers. End Quote: Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications ..." in their description of the product? If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte Foust and John Colby will see it. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From chizotz at mchsi.com Tue Dec 7 15:15:44 2004 From: chizotz at mchsi.com (chizotz at mchsi.com) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:15:44 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <120720042115.3273.4887@mchsi.com> I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 15:56:51 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:56:51 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:20:13 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:20:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 16:35:13 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:42:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:42:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002d01c4dcad$fbc633a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Uh...no, not me. But REAL men do! ;-) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:35 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line > tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and > they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! > (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. > (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the > extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools > and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql > 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 17:39:24 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <41B63F2C.5090704@shaw.ca> Sniff, real programmers don't use any of those fancy geegaw compiler tools just copy con: app.exe and Ctrl-Z when finished or teco vmunix John W. Colby wrote: >Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line >switches... Notepad for an editor... > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > >Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: >http://folding.stanford.edu/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET >Standard 2003 ..." > > >OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being >incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are >like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ >compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in >a >text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you > >still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT >include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework >Version >1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. > >Ron > > > > >>Richard: >> >>I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make >>absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand >>that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime >>environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as >>ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). >> >>What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: >> >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears >>verbatim: >> >>Quote: >> >>.NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 >> >>The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version >>1.1 >>includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET >> >> > > > >>Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools >> >> >and > > >>compilers. >> >>End Quote: >> >>Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be >>something of >>an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, >> >> >they do > > >>use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they >> >> >ARE > > >>describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK >> >> >download is > > >>approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon >> >> >the pun > > >>...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I >> >> >know > > >>this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an >> >> >"optional > > >>download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. >> >>My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the >>"Microsoft >>.NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is >> >> >merely > > >>the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 >> >> > > > >>Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and >>compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework >>applications ..." in their description of the product? >> >>If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) >>"learning tool" to >>help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth >> >> >the > > >>bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up >> >> >connection! > > >>I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that >>Charlotte >>Foust and John Colby will see it. >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi >>The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >>develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >>seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >>(developer/test editions) - not bad really >>Richard >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >>Jim: >> >>Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >>ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >>provided. First, some background ... >> >>We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >>customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be >>purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental >>database application to a "web enabled" environmental database >>application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an >>"affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can >>"play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET >>is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more >>at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here >>at work ...) >> >>I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >>the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >>at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >>need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >>documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >>presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >>ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >>just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >>of Visual Studio .NET? >> >>What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >>Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. >> >>URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >>9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr >> >>and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists >>for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. >> >>So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >>(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >>$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >>Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >>something. >> >>There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >>anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >>lacking subset) of the full product. >> >>Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >>Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >>customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >>Professional" edition.) >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi Alan: >> >>I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >>you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a >>few of the >>options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >>generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >>incorporated: >> >>Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >>tutorials...and it is free. >>http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx >> >>Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open >>source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ >> >>The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070- >>9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >>platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server >>as they have IIS >>built in and applications can test immediately. >> >>Good luck and have fun. >> >>HTH >>Jim >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >>To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? >> >>Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >>fairly significant environmental database application that we have >>been using (and >>"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >>which >>stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >>simple >>Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >>grew >>and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >>migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >>Server >>2000 - which is where we are now. >> >>Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes >>(or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >>becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate >>organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has >>requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web >>browser - such as Internet >>Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >>to >>realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... >> >>The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with >>lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is >>attached to command >>buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >>and >>conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >>code.) >> >>The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep >>learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking >>at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have >>just ordered a couple >>of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >>"Beginning >>VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >>Basic >>.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >>two >>books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. >> >>The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >>proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be >>asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 >>- or whatever >>contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >>researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >>programming, >>I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 >> >>The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for >>two >>reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >>and >>the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >>around >>with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >>appears to >>have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >>"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) >> >>I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have >>actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could >>offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering >>if the "Standard" edition >>has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >>"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? >> >>Thanks in advance ... >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 12:35:45 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:35:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 16 12:40:57 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2957@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> Use MyBase.MethodName? Just a guess. Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From mikedorism at adelphia.net Thu Dec 16 13:02:05 2004 From: mikedorism at adelphia.net (Mike & Doris Manning) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 13:19:03 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Message-ID: <006a01c4e3a4$1e16f820$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> That would do it. Thanks, John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mike & Doris Manning Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:02 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Dec 17 23:46:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:46:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> Message-ID: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From ridermark at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 03:45:44 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:45:44 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> References: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Dec 18 10:12:01 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c4e51c$51a06e50$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Mark, I have discovered how to simulate the debug window. You have to set a breakpoint that will be executed, run your program until the breakpoint is executed, then at that point you can manipulate objects (call public functions etc) in the debug window in a similar manner to VBA. It isn't as convenient but it works. In vba you can simply open the debug window and execute a public function. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rider Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:46 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 30 07:17:30 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:17:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Donations for relief efforts Message-ID: <001101c4ee71$ee336fc0$0300a8c0@ColbyM6805> For anyone interested, you can make donations to the Red Cross for the tsunami relief effort at: https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp You can also Google relief donation and similar phrases if you prefer to make donations to some other organization. This event has overwhelmed everyone's ability to respond and your donation to the organization of your choice will literally save lives. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Wed Dec 1 16:14:45 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:14:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon From ebarro at afsweb.com Wed Dec 1 16:40:49 2004 From: ebarro at afsweb.com (Eric Barro) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:40:49 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Alan, I received my copy of VS.NET 2003 Standard edition (VB.NET) and loaded it onto my home PC and the only part that I found where it was crippled in was the wizard that interfaced with SQL server databases. I got an error message indicating that I needed to use VS.NET 2003 Professional Edition in order to get that to work. Needless to say if you were already comfortable working with how to use stored procedures in SQL server to run your back end processes then there is no need for that wizard. The best tool I've used that helped me get my feet wet in .NET is WebMatrix http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/default.aspx?tabIndex=4&tabId=46. And the best book I've used just to get my feet wet is ASP.NET, Tips, Tutorials and Code by SAMS. WebMatrix is the poor man's version of VS.NET 2003. It comes with lots of good code examples for both VB and C# and the interface is a lot like VS.NET. It comes with ready-made templates that will help you understand the basics of .NET development. In fact when you "move up" to VS.NET you will feel right at home. It doesn't have an upload feature so you will still need standard FTP clients to upload your projects. I use VS.NET 2003 Pro on my work PC and I can move files and projects back and forth to my VS.NET 2003 Std version with no problems. The only bone I have with VS.NET 2003 is that it's cumbersome for the graphical layout part (I've tried resizing the table cells in VS.NET the "graphical way" with no such luck) so I switch to Dreamweaver for that (plus Dreamweaver has an extension that allows me to take a non-.NET form (HTML or ASP) and convert all the fields to .NET server controls). The other thing I don't like with VS.NET is the dependence on FrontPage server extensions to upload your projects. For that I use a free FTP client or I use Dreamweaver's built-in FTP client. Eric -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message and any file, document, previous e-mail message and/or attachment transmitted herewith is confidential and may be legally privileged. 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Users and employees of the e-mail system are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to company policy. The company will not accept any liability in respect of such communication. From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Dec 1 17:18:25 2004 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence (AccessD)) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:18:25 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ridermark at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:55:57 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:55:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: References: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. WebMatrix has a server component that can be used for development without having to install / use IIS. It is a very good place to start since there is a LOT of code available from all over. http://ASP.net is a great site to find end-to-end sample sites or just the basic information you need to get that particular piece to work as you want it. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 2 07:11:32 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:11:32 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2884@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> I don't know if anything has changed in VB.NET Standard but I bought a copy of the first version last year @ $99 US to check it out and the biggest dissapointment was that the Server Explorer will only work on mdbs not SQL (you need the full Studio version for that). So if you plan on dragging SQL connections onto your app you're out of luck. If you're more oriented to writing code than you may not object. There are other tools and features missing as well but it's been too long for me to remember (I think some ASP.NET components may not be included). It will help you get your feet wet but I did find it limiting. If you have the resources go for the Studio. Another "advantage" to the Studio package is that you'll be able to use all the C# code you find in net searches without the need to rewrite in VB (which does not always translate). Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 11:06:57 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:06:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB044@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Dec 7 11:32:08 2004 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:32:08 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 13:38:45 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: Message-ID: <41B606C5.60702@shaw.ca> I just caught this blurb from MSDN Canada. newsletter. By the way they have just released SQL Express Manger the upgrade for SQL Enterprise Manager From the Community - Gift Ideas for Software Developers. Stocking Stuffers? The holiday season is here and there's no time to lose! Here are some gift ideas for developers to avoid the Hoilday rush. Celebrate this holiday season by giving your developers one of the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta products!< http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611003 > These little bundles of joy come in four "delicious" languages: Visual Basic 2005 Express, Visual C# 2005 Express, Visual C++ 2005 Express, and Visual J# 2005 Express. It's perfect for students, teachers, hobbyists, and enthusiasts who want to build dynamic .NET applications for the holidays. And best of all, they're free! Nothing says "I love you, code" better than a copy of one of these Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products! .NET developers writing SOAP endpoints will rejoice when they see what you got them this year. Earlier this week, Microsoft announced the public availability of the Web Services Enhancements for Microsoft .NET (WSE) 2.0 Service Pack 2 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611004 >. WSE augments the .NET Framework by providing support for advanced XML Web service protocols like WS-Addressing, WS-Policy, and WS-Security. Show your developers - who love everything WS-* - that you care by ringing in a new year of interoperability with WSE! Your database administrator will think "UPDATE MyManagers SET CoolQuotient = 1.0 WHERE Name = " when receiving a copy of SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Community Technology Preview < http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611005 > (SQL Server Express). SQL Server Express represents a free, easy-to-use, lightweight version of SQL Server 2005. Why not demonstrate your love for stored and extended procedures in managed code with a copy of SQL Server Express? And for those of you have already downloaded the bits, you're in luck: Microsoft has just released the SQL Server 2005 Express Manager (XM) Community Technology Preview. This tool allows you to easily manage your SQL Server 2005 Express instances by providing a Query Editor and Object Explorer. It makes a great (virtual) stocking stuffer! Griffiths, Richard wrote: >Hi >The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >(developer/test editions) - not bad really >Richard > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > >Jim: > >Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >provided. First, some background ... > >We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >customer >concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in >order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application >to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a >secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development >environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, >(and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a >feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" >and interruptions here at work ...) > >I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >of Visual Studio .NET? > >What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > >URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > >and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for >$1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > >So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >something. > >There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >lacking subset) of the full product. > >Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >Professional" edition.) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >Hi Alan: > >I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >you >look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of >the >options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >incorporated: > >Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >tutorials...and it is free. >http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > >Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and >it >is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > >The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 >070- >9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > >Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >platform to >develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have >IIS >built in and applications can test immediately. > >Good luck and have fun. > >HTH >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > >Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >fairly >significant environmental database application that we have been using >(and >"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >which >stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >simple >Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >grew >and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >Server >2000 - which is where we are now. > >Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or >"something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >becoming >increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So >popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web >enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as >Internet >Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >to >realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > >The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots >of >event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to >command >buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >and >conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >code.) > >The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning >curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & >XML >for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a >couple >of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >"Beginning >VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >Basic >.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >two >books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > >The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >proper >.NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our >customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or >whatever >contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >programming, >I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > >The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two >reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >and >the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >around >with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >appears to >have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > >I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually >done >some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and >opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" >[web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" >edition >has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > >Thanks in advance ... > >Alan C. Lawhon > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 14:54:46 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB048@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Richard: I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears verbatim: Quote: .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers. End Quote: Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications ..." in their description of the product? If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte Foust and John Colby will see it. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From chizotz at mchsi.com Tue Dec 7 15:15:44 2004 From: chizotz at mchsi.com (chizotz at mchsi.com) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:15:44 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <120720042115.3273.4887@mchsi.com> I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 15:56:51 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:56:51 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:20:13 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:20:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 16:35:13 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:42:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:42:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002d01c4dcad$fbc633a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Uh...no, not me. But REAL men do! ;-) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:35 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line > tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and > they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! > (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. > (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the > extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools > and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql > 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 17:39:24 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <41B63F2C.5090704@shaw.ca> Sniff, real programmers don't use any of those fancy geegaw compiler tools just copy con: app.exe and Ctrl-Z when finished or teco vmunix John W. Colby wrote: >Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line >switches... Notepad for an editor... > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > >Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: >http://folding.stanford.edu/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET >Standard 2003 ..." > > >OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being >incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are >like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ >compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in >a >text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you > >still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT >include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework >Version >1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. > >Ron > > > > >>Richard: >> >>I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make >>absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand >>that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime >>environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as >>ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). >> >>What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: >> >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears >>verbatim: >> >>Quote: >> >>.NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 >> >>The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version >>1.1 >>includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET >> >> > > > >>Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools >> >> >and > > >>compilers. >> >>End Quote: >> >>Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be >>something of >>an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, >> >> >they do > > >>use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they >> >> >ARE > > >>describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK >> >> >download is > > >>approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon >> >> >the pun > > >>...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I >> >> >know > > >>this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an >> >> >"optional > > >>download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. >> >>My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the >>"Microsoft >>.NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is >> >> >merely > > >>the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 >> >> > > > >>Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and >>compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework >>applications ..." in their description of the product? >> >>If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) >>"learning tool" to >>help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth >> >> >the > > >>bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up >> >> >connection! > > >>I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that >>Charlotte >>Foust and John Colby will see it. >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi >>The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >>develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >>seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >>(developer/test editions) - not bad really >>Richard >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >>Jim: >> >>Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >>ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >>provided. First, some background ... >> >>We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >>customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be >>purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental >>database application to a "web enabled" environmental database >>application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an >>"affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can >>"play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET >>is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more >>at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here >>at work ...) >> >>I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >>the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >>at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >>need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >>documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >>presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >>ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >>just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >>of Visual Studio .NET? >> >>What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >>Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. >> >>URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >>9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr >> >>and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists >>for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. >> >>So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >>(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >>$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >>Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >>something. >> >>There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >>anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >>lacking subset) of the full product. >> >>Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >>Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >>customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >>Professional" edition.) >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi Alan: >> >>I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >>you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a >>few of the >>options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >>generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >>incorporated: >> >>Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >>tutorials...and it is free. >>http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx >> >>Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open >>source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ >> >>The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070- >>9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >>platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server >>as they have IIS >>built in and applications can test immediately. >> >>Good luck and have fun. >> >>HTH >>Jim >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >>To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? >> >>Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >>fairly significant environmental database application that we have >>been using (and >>"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >>which >>stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >>simple >>Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >>grew >>and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >>migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >>Server >>2000 - which is where we are now. >> >>Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes >>(or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >>becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate >>organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has >>requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web >>browser - such as Internet >>Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >>to >>realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... >> >>The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with >>lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is >>attached to command >>buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >>and >>conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >>code.) >> >>The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep >>learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking >>at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have >>just ordered a couple >>of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >>"Beginning >>VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >>Basic >>.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >>two >>books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. >> >>The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >>proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be >>asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 >>- or whatever >>contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >>researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >>programming, >>I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 >> >>The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for >>two >>reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >>and >>the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >>around >>with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >>appears to >>have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >>"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) >> >>I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have >>actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could >>offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering >>if the "Standard" edition >>has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >>"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? >> >>Thanks in advance ... >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 12:35:45 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:35:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 16 12:40:57 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2957@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> Use MyBase.MethodName? Just a guess. Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From mikedorism at adelphia.net Thu Dec 16 13:02:05 2004 From: mikedorism at adelphia.net (Mike & Doris Manning) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 13:19:03 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Message-ID: <006a01c4e3a4$1e16f820$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> That would do it. Thanks, John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mike & Doris Manning Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:02 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Dec 17 23:46:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:46:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> Message-ID: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From ridermark at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 03:45:44 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:45:44 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> References: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Dec 18 10:12:01 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c4e51c$51a06e50$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Mark, I have discovered how to simulate the debug window. You have to set a breakpoint that will be executed, run your program until the breakpoint is executed, then at that point you can manipulate objects (call public functions etc) in the debug window in a similar manner to VBA. It isn't as convenient but it works. In vba you can simply open the debug window and execute a public function. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rider Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:46 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 30 07:17:30 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:17:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Donations for relief efforts Message-ID: <001101c4ee71$ee336fc0$0300a8c0@ColbyM6805> For anyone interested, you can make donations to the Red Cross for the tsunami relief effort at: https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp You can also Google relief donation and similar phrases if you prefer to make donations to some other organization. This event has overwhelmed everyone's ability to respond and your donation to the organization of your choice will literally save lives. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Wed Dec 1 16:14:45 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:14:45 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon From ebarro at afsweb.com Wed Dec 1 16:40:49 2004 From: ebarro at afsweb.com (Eric Barro) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:40:49 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Alan, I received my copy of VS.NET 2003 Standard edition (VB.NET) and loaded it onto my home PC and the only part that I found where it was crippled in was the wizard that interfaced with SQL server databases. I got an error message indicating that I needed to use VS.NET 2003 Professional Edition in order to get that to work. Needless to say if you were already comfortable working with how to use stored procedures in SQL server to run your back end processes then there is no need for that wizard. The best tool I've used that helped me get my feet wet in .NET is WebMatrix http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/default.aspx?tabIndex=4&tabId=46. And the best book I've used just to get my feet wet is ASP.NET, Tips, Tutorials and Code by SAMS. WebMatrix is the poor man's version of VS.NET 2003. It comes with lots of good code examples for both VB and C# and the interface is a lot like VS.NET. It comes with ready-made templates that will help you understand the basics of .NET development. In fact when you "move up" to VS.NET you will feel right at home. It doesn't have an upload feature so you will still need standard FTP clients to upload your projects. I use VS.NET 2003 Pro on my work PC and I can move files and projects back and forth to my VS.NET 2003 Std version with no problems. The only bone I have with VS.NET 2003 is that it's cumbersome for the graphical layout part (I've tried resizing the table cells in VS.NET the "graphical way" with no such luck) so I switch to Dreamweaver for that (plus Dreamweaver has an extension that allows me to take a non-.NET form (HTML or ASP) and convert all the fields to .NET server controls). The other thing I don't like with VS.NET is the dependence on FrontPage server extensions to upload your projects. For that I use a free FTP client or I use Dreamweaver's built-in FTP client. Eric -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information contained in this e-mail message and any file, document, previous e-mail message and/or attachment transmitted herewith is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the private use of the addressee and must not be disclosed to or used by anyone other than the addressee. If you receive this transmission by error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of email transmission. Users and employees of the e-mail system are expressly required not to make defamatory statements and not to infringe or authorize any infringement of copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Any such communication is contrary to company policy. The company will not accept any liability in respect of such communication. From accessd at shaw.ca Wed Dec 1 17:18:25 2004 From: accessd at shaw.ca (Jim Lawrence (AccessD)) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:18:25 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From ridermark at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 17:55:57 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:55:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: References: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB012@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. WebMatrix has a server component that can be used for development without having to install / use IIS. It is a very good place to start since there is a LOT of code available from all over. http://ASP.net is a great site to find end-to-end sample sites or just the basic information you need to get that particular piece to work as you want it. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 2 07:11:32 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:11:32 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2884@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> I don't know if anything has changed in VB.NET Standard but I bought a copy of the first version last year @ $99 US to check it out and the biggest dissapointment was that the Server Explorer will only work on mdbs not SQL (you need the full Studio version for that). So if you plan on dragging SQL connections onto your app you're out of luck. If you're more oriented to writing code than you may not object. There are other tools and features missing as well but it's been too long for me to remember (I think some ASP.NET components may not be included). It will help you get your feet wet but I did find it limiting. If you have the resources go for the Studio. Another "advantage" to the Studio package is that you'll be able to use all the C# code you find in net searches without the need to rewrite in VB (which does not always translate). Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NETStandard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 11:06:57 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:06:57 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB044@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk Tue Dec 7 11:32:08 2004 From: R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk (Griffiths, Richard) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:32:08 -0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 13:38:45 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:38:45 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: Message-ID: <41B606C5.60702@shaw.ca> I just caught this blurb from MSDN Canada. newsletter. By the way they have just released SQL Express Manger the upgrade for SQL Enterprise Manager From the Community - Gift Ideas for Software Developers. Stocking Stuffers? The holiday season is here and there's no time to lose! Here are some gift ideas for developers to avoid the Hoilday rush. Celebrate this holiday season by giving your developers one of the Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta products!< http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611003 > These little bundles of joy come in four "delicious" languages: Visual Basic 2005 Express, Visual C# 2005 Express, Visual C++ 2005 Express, and Visual J# 2005 Express. It's perfect for students, teachers, hobbyists, and enthusiasts who want to build dynamic .NET applications for the holidays. And best of all, they're free! Nothing says "I love you, code" better than a copy of one of these Visual Studio 2005 Express Beta Products! .NET developers writing SOAP endpoints will rejoice when they see what you got them this year. Earlier this week, Microsoft announced the public availability of the Web Services Enhancements for Microsoft .NET (WSE) 2.0 Service Pack 2 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611004 >. WSE augments the .NET Framework by providing support for advanced XML Web service protocols like WS-Addressing, WS-Policy, and WS-Security. Show your developers - who love everything WS-* - that you care by ringing in a new year of interoperability with WSE! Your database administrator will think "UPDATE MyManagers SET CoolQuotient = 1.0 WHERE Name = " when receiving a copy of SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Community Technology Preview < http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=1611005 > (SQL Server Express). SQL Server Express represents a free, easy-to-use, lightweight version of SQL Server 2005. Why not demonstrate your love for stored and extended procedures in managed code with a copy of SQL Server Express? And for those of you have already downloaded the bits, you're in luck: Microsoft has just released the SQL Server 2005 Express Manager (XM) Community Technology Preview. This tool allows you to easily manage your SQL Server 2005 Express instances by providing a Query Editor and Object Explorer. It makes a great (virtual) stocking stuffer! Griffiths, Richard wrote: >Hi >The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >(developer/test editions) - not bad really >Richard > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > >Jim: > >Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >provided. First, some background ... > >We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >customer >concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in >order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application >to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a >secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development >environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, >(and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a >feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" >and interruptions here at work ...) > >I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >of Visual Studio .NET? > >What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > >URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > >and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for >$1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > >So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >something. > >There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >lacking subset) of the full product. > >Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >Professional" edition.) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >Hi Alan: > >I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >you >look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of >the >options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >incorporated: > >Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >tutorials...and it is free. >http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > >Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and >it >is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > >The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 >070- >9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > >Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >platform to >develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have >IIS >built in and applications can test immediately. > >Good luck and have fun. > >HTH >Jim > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > >Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >fairly >significant environmental database application that we have been using >(and >"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >which >stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >simple >Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >grew >and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >Server >2000 - which is where we are now. > >Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or >"something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >becoming >increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So >popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web >enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as >Internet >Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >to >realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > >The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots >of >event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to >command >buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >and >conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >code.) > >The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning >curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & >XML >for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a >couple >of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >"Beginning >VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >Basic >.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >two >books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > >The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >proper >.NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our >customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or >whatever >contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >programming, >I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > >The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two >reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >and >the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >around >with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >appears to >have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > >I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually >done >some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and >opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" >[web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" >edition >has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > >Thanks in advance ... > >Alan C. Lawhon > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 14:54:46 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB048@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Richard: I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears verbatim: Quote: .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers. End Quote: Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications ..." in their description of the product? If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte Foust and John Colby will see it. Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Jim: Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you provided. First, some background ... We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here at work ...) I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version of Visual Studio .NET? What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or something. There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully lacking subset) of the full product. Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional" edition.) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." Hi Alan: I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of the options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net incorporated: Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate tutorials...and it is free. http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 070- 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have IIS built in and applications can test immediately. Good luck and have fun. HTH Jim -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a fairly significant environmental database application that we have been using (and "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - which stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very simple Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system grew and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL Server 2000 - which is where we are now. Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as Internet Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) to realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to command buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing and conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA code.) The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a couple of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered "Beginning VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these two books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or whatever contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET programming, I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - and the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing around with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition appears to have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" edition has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? Thanks in advance ... Alan C. Lawhon _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From chizotz at mchsi.com Tue Dec 7 15:15:44 2004 From: chizotz at mchsi.com (chizotz at mchsi.com) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 21:15:44 +0000 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <120720042115.3273.4887@mchsi.com> I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 15:56:51 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 15:56:51 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime environment, > (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, > and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The Microsoft? .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer > concerning what software (and development tools) should be purchased in > order to facilitate conversion of our environmental database application > to a "web enabled" environmental database application. I also have a > secondary goal of obtaining an "affordable" .NET integrated development > environment so that I can "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, > (and whatever-else .NET is required), on my home computer. (I have a > feeling I can learn more at home versus all the constant "distractions" > and interruptions here at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists for > $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you > look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a few of > the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open source)...and > it > is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647-4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to > develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server as they have > IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C > Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly > significant environmental database application that we have been using > (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes (or > "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming > increasingly popular with users outside our immediate organization. So > popular, in fact, that our Government manager has requested that we "web > enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web browser - such as > Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with lots > of > event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is attached to > command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep learning > curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking at "HTML & > XML > for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have just ordered a > couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper > .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be asking our > customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 - or > whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have actually > done > some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could offer advice and > opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Standard 2003" > [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering if the "Standard" > edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:20:13 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:20:13 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04C@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From alan.lawhon at us.army.mil Tue Dec 7 16:35:13 2004 From: alan.lawhon at us.army.mil (Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 16:35:13 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Message-ID: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Tue Dec 7 16:42:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:42:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." In-Reply-To: <5D5043687CFCE44288407A73E4CC6E179BB04F@redstone819.ad.redstone.army.mil> Message-ID: <002d01c4dcad$fbc633a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Uh...no, not me. But REAL men do! ;-) John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:35 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should IBuy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK John ... I can see that you program down to base metal - and polish it! :-))) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: John W. Colby [mailto:jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:20 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line > tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and > they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! > (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. > (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the > extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools > and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql > 2000 (developer/test editions) - not bad really Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From martyconnelly at shaw.ca Tue Dec 7 17:39:24 2004 From: martyconnelly at shaw.ca (MartyConnelly) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." References: <002b01c4dcaa$eef8f2a0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <41B63F2C.5090704@shaw.ca> Sniff, real programmers don't use any of those fancy geegaw compiler tools just copy con: app.exe and Ctrl-Z when finished or teco vmunix John W. Colby wrote: >Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line >switches... Notepad for an editor... > >John W. Colby >www.ColbyConsulting.com > >Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: >http://folding.stanford.edu/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C >Contractor/Morgan Research >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET >Standard 2003 ..." > > >OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being >incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are >like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) > >Alan C. Lawhon > > >-----Original Message----- >From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM >To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > >I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ >compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in >a >text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you > >still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT >include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework >Version >1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. > >Ron > > > > >>Richard: >> >>I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make >>absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand >>that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime >>environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as >>ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). >> >>What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: >> >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears >>verbatim: >> >>Quote: >> >>.NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 >> >>The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version >>1.1 >>includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET >> >> > > > >>Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools >> >> >and > > >>compilers. >> >>End Quote: >> >>Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be >>something of >>an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, >> >> >they do > > >>use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they >> >> >ARE > > >>describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK >> >> >download is > > >>approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon >> >> >the pun > > >>...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I >> >> >know > > >>this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an >> >> >"optional > > >>download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. >> >>My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the >>"Microsoft >>.NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is >> >> >merely > > >>the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 >> >> > > > >>Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and >>compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework >>applications ..." in their description of the product? >> >>If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) >>"learning tool" to >>help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth >> >> >the > > >>bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up >> >> >connection! > > >>I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that >>Charlotte >>Foust and John Colby will see it. >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi >>The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To >>develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've >>seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 >>(developer/test editions) - not bad really >>Richard >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >>Jim: >> >>Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- >>ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you >>provided. First, some background ... >> >>We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our >>customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be >>purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental >>database application to a "web enabled" environmental database >>application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an >>"affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can >>"play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET >>is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more >>at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here >>at work ...) >> >>I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for >>the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info >>at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers >>need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - >>documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I >>presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, >>ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words >>just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version >>of Visual Studio .NET? >> >>What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product >>Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. >> >>URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= >>9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr >> >>and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists >>for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. >> >>So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, >>(Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging >>$1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? >>Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or >>something. >> >>There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" >>anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully >>lacking subset) of the full product. >> >>Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, >>Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our >>customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 >>Professional" edition.) >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM >>To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual >>Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>Hi Alan: >> >>I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if >>you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a >>few of the >>options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that >>generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net >>incorporated: >> >>Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate >>tutorials...and it is free. >>http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx >> >>Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open >>source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ >> >>The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. >>http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 >>-4 >>070- >>9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en >> >>Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS >>platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server >>as they have IIS >>built in and applications can test immediately. >> >>Good luck and have fun. >> >>HTH >>Jim >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com >>[mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan >>C Contractor/Morgan Research >>Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM >>To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com >>Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003 ..." >> >> >>... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? >> >>Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a >>fairly significant environmental database application that we have >>been using (and >>"tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - >>which >>stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very >>simple >>Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system >>grew >>and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end >>migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL >>Server >>2000 - which is where we are now. >> >>Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes >>(or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is >>becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate >>organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has >>requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web >>browser - such as Internet >>Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) >>to >>realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... >> >>The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with >>lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is >>attached to command >>buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing >>and >>conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA >>code.) >> >>The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep >>learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking >>at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have >>just ordered a couple >>of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered >>"Beginning >>VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual >>Basic >>.NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these >>two >>books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. >> >>The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the >>proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be >>asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 >>- or whatever >>contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While >>researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET >>programming, >>I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 >> >>The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for >>two >>reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - >>and >>the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing >>around >>with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition >>appears to >>have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's >>"Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) >> >>I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have >>actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could >>offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic >>.NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering >>if the "Standard" edition >>has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so >>"crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? >> >>Thanks in advance ... >> >>Alan C. Lawhon >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >>_______________________________________________ >>dba-VB mailing list >>dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >>http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >>http://www.databaseadvisors.com >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >dba-VB mailing list >dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com >http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb >http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > -- Marty Connelly Victoria, B.C. Canada From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 12:35:45 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:35:45 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org Thu Dec 16 12:40:57 2004 From: Jdemarco at hudsonhealthplan.org (Jim DeMarco) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Message-ID: <08F823FD83787D4BA0B99CA580AD3C749D2957@TTNEXCHCL2.hshhp.com> Use MyBase.MethodName? Just a guess. Jim DeMarco -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com *********************************************************************************** "This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information from Hudson Health Plan (HHP) that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately, either by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above or calling HHP at (914) 631-1611. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward this email to anyone, and delete and destroy all copies of this message. Thank You". *********************************************************************************** From mikedorism at adelphia.net Thu Dec 16 13:02:05 2004 From: mikedorism at adelphia.net (Mike & Doris Manning) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:02:05 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <006601c4e39e$12427660$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 16 13:19:03 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods In-Reply-To: <000201c4e3a1$be749e10$0b08a845@hargrove.internal> Message-ID: <006a01c4e3a4$1e16f820$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> That would do it. Thanks, John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mike & Doris Manning Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 2:02 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods Choose the Form events option from the left dropdown in the code module (will be 3rd one from top) and then its Paint event in the right dropdown. Doris Manning Database Administrator Hargrove Inc. www.hargroveinc.com -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 1:36 PM To: VBA Subject: [dba-VB] VB.Net Inherited methods How do I access the inherited methods of the form? Apparently a form is a control, and the control class has a paint method. I need to see that in my form class so that I can put code there. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Fri Dec 17 23:46:08 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:46:08 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> Message-ID: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ From ridermark at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 03:45:44 2004 From: ridermark at gmail.com (Mark Rider) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:45:44 -0600 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> References: <0CC84C9461AE6445AD5A602001C41C4B059CE5@mercury.tnco-inc.com> <001201c4e4c4$e38abda0$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Message-ID: > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Sat Dec 18 10:12:01 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c4e51c$51a06e50$e8dafea9@ColbyM6805> Mark, I have discovered how to simulate the debug window. You have to set a breakpoint that will be executed, run your program until the breakpoint is executed, then at that point you can manipulate objects (call public functions etc) in the debug window in a similar manner to VBA. It isn't as convenient but it works. In vba you can simply open the debug window and execute a public function. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Mark Rider Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:46 AM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: Re: [dba-VB] .net vbebug window > Does vb.net have the equivalent of the debug window where I can run > functions I am developing just for debugging purposes? In a word, yes. You can run the program in a debug mode, and during the initial compile if there are any errors it will let you know what they are and WHERE they are. You can also control such things as how variables are displayed, whether certain warnings are presented, how breakpoints are set, etc. -- Mark Rider http://commonsensesecurity.info There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't. _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com From jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com Thu Dec 30 07:17:30 2004 From: jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com (John W. Colby) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:17:30 -0500 Subject: [dba-VB] Donations for relief efforts Message-ID: <001101c4ee71$ee336fc0$0300a8c0@ColbyM6805> For anyone interested, you can make donations to the Red Cross for the tsunami relief effort at: https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp You can also Google relief donation and similar phrases if you prefer to make donations to some other organization. This event has overwhelmed everyone's ability to respond and your donation to the organization of your choice will literally save lives. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/