[AccessD] .NET

Arthur Fuller artful at rogers.com
Mon Feb 24 10:18:00 CST 2003


>>ALL of that stuff is the difference between just using java and writing to
the .net environment.  Development is ALWAYS about cost.  In the end,
managers don't care if they have to pay $50k for MS licenses if the app they
need developed costs $50k, when the alternative is to not pay the $50K to MS
but pay $500K to develop their app.  And that is the Achilles heel of the
"opensource software" (free software to the unknowing).  The stronger the
foundation you build your app from, the less you have to do.  Write Access,
or buy it?  Write SQL Server or buy it?  Write the .net foundation or buy
it?  Try doing any of this in Java and come back next century when you are
ready to start building your actual app.

Argument by straw man, JC, reflecting your unacquaintance with the the Linux
world more than the actual situation. 
1.	Why write Access when there are several IDEs that are approximately
equivalent. Borland's JBuilder and Kylix come to mind, the former an IDE for
Java and the latter an IDE for Delphi (sort of). Both products are extremely
high quality. There are similar offerings from IBM as well.
2.	Should you go the Java route, you don't have to write the .net
foundation. Sun did it for you.
3.	You don't have to write SQL Server. If you want speed use MySQL. If
you want transactions, triggers &c use PostgresSQL.

Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-admin at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-admin at databaseadvisors.com] 
Sent: February 24, 2003 10:54 AM
To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com
Subject: RE: [AccessD] .NET

What you would discover if you were a diplomat, is that countries do things
for a variety of reasons, all of which equate to "it's in our best
interest".  The whole "open source" thing never had a chance until MS raised
their rates and changed their licensing methodology.  All of a sudden...

But it has very little to do with "phone home" except of course that phoning
home prevented users from stealing the software and thus ended up costing
everyone more since all of a sudden they had to pay for every copy.  "In out
best interest"!.  Which of course it is, because MS software was costing a
bundle just to get the secretary typing in a word doc.  Do you need windows
(at $100) plus Office (at $500) just to type a letter?  Of course not.
Linux and Star office works just fine (if a bit slowly).

But to jump from there to ".Net (or any other MS technology) is not going to
be accepted" is about like the difference between here and the moon, and
here and the nearest star.  Opensource has it's place.  It is growing, and I
am very happy that it is.  But to drop everything MS related on the hope
that something like Java is going to be king is not "in my best interest".

Now, to discuss reasonably what .net is (and is not) would be a worthwhile
thread.  BTW, MS has been working on this stuff for about 5 years
apparently.  Pieces of the .net programming environment are written in these
languages, using the framework to provide services.  

<disclaimer>
I am not currently anything other than an Access developer looking at
expanding my horizons.  I don't work for MS, I don't know HOW to use .net.
I have however done some reading so I can BEGIN to discuss the ideas behind
.net.  Take anything I say with a grain of salt because I am just beginning
my explorations"
</disclaimer>

.Net begins with the .net framework. http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/

The .net framework is the foundation of the .net programming environment.
It has thousands of classes which build up the functionality exposed by the
framework.  

<MS Marketing>
What Is the .NET Framework?
The .NET Framework is the programming model of the .NET environment for
building, deploying, and running Web-based applications, smart client
applications, and XML Web services. It manages much of the plumbing,
enabling developers to focus on writing the business logic code for their
applications. The .NET Framework includes the common language runtime and
class libraries.

Common Language Runtime
The common language runtime is responsible for run time services such as
language integration, security enforcement, memory, process, and thread
management. In addition, it has a role at development time when features
such as life-cycle management, strong type naming, cross-language exception
handling, dynamic binding, and so on, reduce the amount of code that a
developer must write to turn business logic into a reusable component.

 
Class Libraries
Base classes provide standard functionality such as input/output, string
manipulation, security management, network communications, thread
management, text management, user interface design features, and other
functions. The Microsoft ADO.NET data classes support persistent data
management and include SQL classes for manipulating persistent data stores
through a standard SQL interface. XML classes enable XML data manipulation
and XML searching and translations. The Microsoft ASP.NET classes support
the development of Web-based applications and XML Web services. The Windows
Forms classes support the development of Windows-based smart client
applications. Together, the class libraries provide a common, consistent
development interface across all languages supported by the .NET Framework.
</MS Marketing>

ALL of that stuff is the difference between just using java and writing to
the .net environment.  Development is ALWAYS about cost.  In the end,
managers don't care if they have to pay $50k for MS licenses if the app they
need developed costs $50k, when the alternative is to not pay the $50K to MS
but pay $500K to develop their app.  And that is the Achilles heel of the
"opensource software" (free software to the unknowing).  The stronger the
foundation you build your app from, the less you have to do.  Write Access,
or buy it?  Write SQL Server or buy it?  Write the .net foundation or buy
it?  Try doing any of this in Java and come back next century when you are
ready to start building your actual app.

<DISCLAIMER>
I am NOT justifying anything, I am NOT selling Microsoft, I am simply making
an observation that will stand or not.
<DISCLAIMER>

The windows environment provides a very powerful foundation for building
things.  It has a published API, it has dozens of languages to use in
building apps, and it has millions of people programming to it.  Any time
you call the API to have Windows do something for you, that is "java code
you don't have to write".  That API provides you with literally millions of
lines of code already written and exposed for your convenience (and slavery
to the environment, but that is the subject of another thread).

To get back to .net, the idea is simply to build up the .net framework to
provide exactly this same concept, thousands of classes that do all kinds of
stuff, and then expose that stuff for your programming convenience.  I have
downloaded a .net demo that uses maybe a hundred lines of code to read and
write encrypted files.  It uses built in windows encryption, which has about
6 different encryption standards (including public key) wrapped by the
framework, and those framework classes are used to set it up and do it.

So, could you do that in Open Source?  Probably.  But "how" is the problem.
You go looking for this and searching for that.  Downloading stuff, trying
this one, and a week later, you have your solution.  Cool.  1 week at $80 /
hour = a TON of money.  And all you got for your ton of money is an
encrypted file, a TINY fraction of what you need to get done.

Again, I downloaded a .net demo that builds a chat client.  Not sure exactly
how much code (I am looking at it), but probably under 200 lines.  Again,
can you write that using Open Source.  Probably (see previous paragraph).

We use ANY tool because it makes our job faster or easier.  MS has spent
hundreds of millions of dollars writing a programming "system" whose purpose
is to create slaves to the environment (but that is the subject of another
thread), but in the process they MAY have (I haven't really used it yet)
made our job a whole lot easier / faster.  In the end, if my clients already
use the environment, then it saves my clients money, or makes me more money,
or both.

We can demonize MS till the cows come home (that is the subject of another
thread), but I for one am willing to at least give them credit for whatever
they do accomplish.  You don't have to like the motives (another thread),
but this discussion really should be a discussion about what it does and
doesn't give us.  I don't know enough to speak with authority about that
yet.  But I don't find it in MY best interest to simply dismiss it out of
hand.  

I don't live in Germany.  If I did I would evaluate what was in MY best
interest, living there.  I hadn't heard that they had outlawed using MS
software, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.  I know for a fact that the
US government as NOT outlawed using MS software.  I get the feeling however
that I would have plenty of clients if I were to use .net.

John W. Colby
Colby Consulting
www.ColbyConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-admin at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-admin at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Henry Simpson
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 2:36 AM
To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com
Subject: RE: [AccessD] .NET


Over 2 gigs and multiple development languages?  What with countries like 
Germany mandating the use of open source software because they can't really 
allow ET to phone Microsoft home and disclose potentially sensitive 
information through the updating and registration processes (curiously 
enough, a number of US federal departments have taken this stance as well), 
plus with Microsoft being ordered, awaiting appeal, to include Java support 
and of course, the comparative maturity and robust capability of Java, I 
would have to wonder why anyone would want to start learning .NET.

As I had mentioned several weeks ago, Java already has ADO capability.  It 
also has and has had true object oriented capability, is becoming a college 
and university standard for teaching OOD, has seen several generations of 
RAD IDEs and is free with tons of free available code.  It runs on virtually

any existing OS including Microsoft, Mac, Linux and Unix.  If Access is 
coming out with a .NET version real soon, it may be a reason to learn some 
.NET.  Microsoft had better let the cat out of the bag real quick and they 
had better be telling me that Access will have inheritance while they're at 
it before I spend any time learning any .NET.  I had looked at the .NET 
stuff over a year ago and had spoken with several people who were asked for 
input by Microsoft over earlier pre beta releases as well as downloaded 
several hundreds of megabytes of Microsoft AV files promoting the technology

and have seen little that is compelling.  Local developers have provided a 
very mixed opinion on .NET and much has been said about bugs.  On the other 
hand, Java seems to be making inroads not only with governments and 
universities, but also in business.

I expect to continue developing in Access 97 and 2000 but have not yet seen 
any demand for XP.  I believe it will practically be a miracle if Microsoft 
endows an Access.NET with the speed and convenience of its desktop guise and

will require drastic changes like those in VB.  Will it still be an 
affordable handy single or few user database?  As long as Microsoft keeps 
the wraps on where it's going and when a reasonably bug free version is 
realistically anticipated to be released, I'll be learning Java, which 
already does everything .NET is supposed to, very well at that, for free, 
independent of operating system, and governed by very consistent and stable 
standards.

Hen


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