Erwin Craps
Erwin.Craps at ithelps.be
Tue Jul 29 02:22:51 CDT 2003
That will be probably true. C# / .NET is no big deal in Europe (not yet). A friend freelance developper (bodyshop) whom works for big institutes in the financial world was absolutly convinced about c#/.net. It a great developersenviroment. This is what he said about 1,5 years ago when he was developing an internet interface for an Access app I wrote. It was against my will in C# because I don't believe in new technology until proven (and I can't program in c#)... But it was MS and it was the folow up for Visual Interdev. In the back of my mind I knew I had to go there and he convinced me. He wanted to write this as a test case and a reference to higher up his price in bodyshopping market... A couple of months ago he told me that he quitted developping in C#, because no demand, because MS was way to late on the market with this product. Every major company has been developping in Java since a few years because of no equivalent in the market (at that time). MS does not push the .NET platform enough in to businesses. Plus big businesses have same attitude as me. Proven technology first. There is a big disadvantage for .NET. You need a at least a 2K server (or WS on small scale). Did you compared the price of a stupid Linux server and W2k or higher server? As I recall MS also announced to change the license policy for the IIS server for what concerns .NET, 1 internet user 1 license... I can be wrong with this but I do recall to have read something in this kind. I believe the Linux hype has made them change there mind. I'm not pro Linux, infact I don't like it, had to work a couple of times with it, and I feel myself in the dark ages of DOS 1.1 (thats as far as I go) again when working with the OS. But I must admit, they have created a huge market and there are some pretty nice webservers out there. And all the tools are for free. And thats why PHP/MYSQL is so dominant on the market. What do you thing all those kids work with during education? W2K/IIS or a linux server? I had a student asking me for Turbo-Pascal because they can't offord some current languages in school. Don't get me wrong, I don't like PHP, MYSQL, Linux and others because, because, because, I don't know, but I don't like it. Probably because it's free, and I lost my confidence in free stuff (no such thing...). Probably because most of the stuff I hear from Linux/PHP/MysQL comes from those Internet Wiz kids who are telling so much inconsistancees... Like PHP is secure because it open source., there are no Virusses on Linux, etc... The last one we already (we as in DOS/NT people) know, everyone should know that when you have an OS, you gonna have virusses... The first one (secure 'cause opensource) I find funny. If someone uses that as an argument I always ask, "Did you checked every program line to see if any trojan Horses are embedded in the code?". I never got a "yes" as an answer. I wonder if someone puts a trojan horse in 30000 lines of code, if anyone would notice that? Probably there will be some geek, but would anybody (low cost users) care it's in there? Some people rather like to die then pay for something. And to conclude, it's my believe today that Java is and will stay the dominant player for serious web developping. It's is also my believe that there is a gigantic Internet market for less serious developping, I would guess 60% of the total market, and that will be for the wizz kids (that have now an age around 30) and low cost apps. And than you have those SME businesses that want a serious develoment but the application is to 'minor' or the budget is to low. Typecally our (Access) market, and what are whe gonna use? Seems evident to me. .NET and probably VB.NET. Why? Lower entrence. You seen C# code? Pff I not gonna start with that. Just give me my plain old basic. Proven technology you know. Always been there, always will be there and everybody knows it... And if you have made it to this line I would like to felicitate you to keep on reading my kr*p... Huumm, I feel better now :-) Erwin -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:18 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Hi All: I have seen a recent claim, have no way to validate it but the assertion goes as follows: PHP as a server based web language now has almost forty percent of the general market... This claim seems outrageous but that would leave PHP holding the largest single market share of that genre of products. Jim -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott (GEAE, Contractor) Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 10:00 AM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com John, Thanks for your optimism on .Net. All I ever here are negative things about MS products (which I make my living with). It is a good point you make about being on the leading edge. I think the same way. I just get discouraged cause very few tend to agree with that statement. It seems that most think that software development will eventually be all off shore. I say that moving off shore totally won't happen (small business needs physical presence). JM2C Scott -----Original Message----- From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:49 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Scott, >My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings >for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). I am seeing more and more .net openings, at least more and more "ya need the kitchen sink and oh, by the way, ya need .net too" ads. I get the feeling that not many companies really understand it yet - momentum. However my feelings are that MS has spent a TON of money on developing the concept, and are pushing .net big time. If they put their muscle behind it, it won't be long till it's a "requirement" to get a job and I want to be on the leading edge of this one. PLUS, the .net framework is truly impressive in the capability it gives me "out of the box". >You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). >I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to me that C# pulls in more money. Yea, it is silly considering the reality of the new .net environment. I'm betting that it won't be long before managers start to listen to M$ saying that any language is equally capable and stop paying more for C#. There are still a very small handful of indirection capabilities that C# has that VB doesn't, and if you need them then fine, go there. Otherwise VB is probably faster to get something up and running in. And finally, no, my framework has no equivalents in .net for the simple reason that my framework is about making form development in Access easier (even more RAD). Since .net is so very different from Access, much of what I do simply doesn't even make sense in .net. For example, I have a function in my framework that keeps a record selector combo synced to the form (bound) and the form synced to the combo. It turns out that in .net if you set the form (or a data grid) and a combo to the same dataset, selecting a record in the combo will just cause the two things to stay in sync (be on the same record). AFAICT, that is because the combo actually sets a "current record" property in the dataset object. Another example, in my framework I want to prevent the user from moving into a subform if the main form goes to the new record. .Net doesn't even HAVE subforms. Things like that. I am in the process of rewriting something that would "make sense" to port - my Sysvars. Assuming that I leave my error handlers in place, that port is really fairly straightforward. However I don't really have much hope of "just porting" my framework. In the end though, there is enough work to be done making .net as "database friendly" as Access that I am sure I will have plenty of similar projects. John W. Colby www.colbyconsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Marcus, Scott (GEAE, Contractor) Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:03 PM To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving' Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com John, You must have read the same article as me (actually editors comments). I'm leaning VB.Net first and then adding C# to my skills. Seems silly to me that C# pulls in more money. Like you, that is why I'm going to learn it also. Have you seen any silly job postings like "C# developer with 5 years experience..."? Have you found that your Access framework already has equivalents in .Net framework? I'm not far enough into .Net to have an opinion yet. I can say that if it is similar to how Java works, I won't like it. I hear that C# is very close to Java. What I've learned in VB.Net so far seems pretty straight forward. My only doubts about .Net is that I'm not seeing very many job postings for .Net developers (but allot more than Access development). Scott -----Original Message----- From: jcolby at colbyconsulting.com [mailto:jcolby at colbyconsulting.com] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:47 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD]OT: C# was no-ip.com Scott, Not yet, though I think I will end up there. I'm thinking that learning VB.Net and more importantly the .net framework FIRST will be most useful to me. The framework is massive and being comfortable with that is a requirement regardless of the language you then use for your programming. Once that is done I will probably move to C# for the simple reason that the polls indicate C# programmers get better money. I did a controller project down in Mexico in a custom 'C' language so it isn't totally foreign. Again though, the whole point of the .Net concept is that the framework really provides about 90% of the functionality and it is used EXACTLY the same regardless of the language you use. The language itself is really a thin veneer over the top of the framework. Even things like variables are framework objects so that any .net language can literally pass their variables back and forth without the silly problems like you see with VB and C not treating strings the same way. John W. Colby www.colbyconsulting.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com