William Hindman
wdhindman at bellsouth.net
Thu Oct 2 20:32:45 CDT 2003
http://www.standishgroup.com/chaos/toc.php
William Hindman
<http://www.freestateproject.org> - Do you want liberty in your lifetime?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Bruen" <bbruen at bigpond.com>
To: "'AccessD'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:16 PM
Subject: FW: [AccessD] Project Official Start
> Woops! Too quick on the send button.
>
> I am currently neck deep in a consultancy project for a large company
> who are looking to "shortcut" system development methods as there
> current methods have become too bogged down in detail and have resulted
> in a situation where the price of a development is too high because of
> the development methodology, the number of people involved and the level
> of detail required in every deliverable at each stage of a process that
> has become soooo waterfall it's crippling.
>
> They however, have a good attitude to the fact that systems must be
> built from a design which comes from an agreed set of requirements. The
> problem is that the process has become and end in itself - i.e. every
> issue has a resolution of "follow the process" but the process itself
> doesn't answer the questions:
> 1) What are we trying to build
> 2) How are we going to build it
> 3) How long will it take
>
> When I arrived the developers, strangely enough, are the ones that were
> crying - "we don't need requirements and design documents". After some
> weeks of getting them to explain how they were going to answer the above
> fundamental questions without some level of documentation and providing
> them with options that may just allow that - the so called "agile"
> methods like eXtreme programming and the like - we came across the
> following amusing little tale: www.iconixsw.com/aliceinusecaseland.html
>
> Of particular interest regarding the "don't want to pay for a spec"
> clients is section 25. However the real point of this message is the
> spectacular failure of the C3 project at Chrysler - so much for extreme
> programming! The link for that story is at
> http://c2.com.cgi.wiki?CthreeProjectTerminated and relates the tale of
> woe (?) Kent Beck is spreading about the failure of that project and as
> far as I'm concerned the failure of the "its 2 o'clock, why aren't we
> coding" brigade and all their fancy ideas...
>
> I would also like to point out to Hadyn the famous CHAOS report from The
> Standish Group, which although a bit dated still is relevant regarding
> the facts:
> 1) MOST IT projects fail - in their study in 1996 only 26% of
> projects completed on time and within budget.
> 2) A significant number of the failures were due to REQUIREMENTS
> related aspects, such as "unclear requirements", "incomplete
> requirements", "realistic expectations", "clear vision and objectives".
> (these total around a third of the cited primary failure reasons)
>
> I would like to include the site for the "Chaos report" but I cant find
> it.
>
> Hth
> Bruce
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Bruen [mailto:bbruen at bigpond.com]
> Sent: Friday, 3 October 2003 10:34 AM
> To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
> Subject: RE: [AccessD] Project Official Start
>
>
> This may help, see especially the reference to C3 in the wiki
> www.iconixsw.com/aliceinusecaseland.html
>
> Rgrds
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hadyn Morgan
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 October 2003 2:39 PM
> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
> Subject: RE: [AccessD] Project Official Start
>
>
> The client does not want to pay for the time to write a spec. We have
> spent the last 2 weeks doing this at our own cost. It is based on a web
> application that was built and paid for on an hourly basis, because
> again they did not want to pay for a spec. ~40% of the cost of it could
> have been avoided on the stuff they requested then changed their minds
> about.
>
> They have paid a premium so far (our largest customer to date), and I
> would like to keep them as a client. Then again I don't want to be
> royally screwed either :(
>
> Hadyn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Christopher
> Hawkins
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 October 2003 15:49
> To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com
> Subject: RE: [AccessD] Project Official Start
>
>
> You can still walk away from a client like this, and should - 1999 be
> damned.
>
> IMHO, a client that is trying to negotiate penalty clauses before
> defining what it is the developer is supposed to be developing is a
> client looking to screw a developer and get something for nothing. This
> is a HUGE red flag.
>
> -Christopher-
>
> ---- Original Message ----
> From: Developer at ultradnt.com
> To: accessd at databaseadvisors.com,
> Subject: RE: [AccessD] Project Official Start
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:38:42 -0400
>
> >Remember the good old days of 1999 when you could just walk away from a
>
> >client like this?
> >
> >BTW - I'm a newbie, just signed on the list. (NYC-based independent
> >contractor: Access, VB, SQL, MS-Office training, and when I can't get
> >out of it, a little networking)
> >
> >Short answer is, when both sides have signed, that's your begin date.
> >
> >As for the penalty, YES - get their responsibilities in writing ... I
> >have a client who pays me to keep re-importing their old system's data
> >because by the time they check the import, it's a month out of date
> >and
> >they want all the new entries from the old system in the new system
> >...
> >This is going on like this for six months, It's boring as hell and
> >keeping me from getting started on their .net based intranet, but
> >... As
> >long as they are paying, it doesn't matter. In your case, though,
> >since
> >they are making noise about not paying, make sure that the "clock
> >stops"
> >when you are waiting for them to test or review or deploy or
> >whatever.
> >Try to get the wording to be a count of days from execution, since
> >you
> >could lose a month just getting the lawyers from both sides to accept
> >the document ("project will be completed 77 days from execution of
> >this
> >contract", for example).
> >
> >Hth,
> >Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> >[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Hadyn Morgan
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:22 PM
> >To: AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> >Subject: [AccessD] Project Official Start
> >
> >
> >When do you say a project has started? I have a client that has said
> >'Yes' to a project, but has not signed off the spec, or the quote, and
> >now wants to negotiate penalty clauses before they sign (if we don't
> >deliver on time to the proposed end date (11 weeks from start of
> >project) they reduce total payment by 8% for each full week we are
> >late). I have managed to get them to exclude Acts of God etc, and
> >have
> >suggested that if they are to blame for the delay we should be
> >allowed
> >to charge them for the extra time.
> >
> >Any thoughts?
> >
> >Kind regards
> >Hadyn
> >
> >---
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