John W. Colby
jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com
Tue May 25 12:33:41 CDT 2004
>I put limits on these things to prevent "Good Users" from doing "Bad Things". Shades of Marshal Dillon. I design databases, I am not the Sheriff. What is bad to you may be perfectly legal and necessary to your user. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Scott Marcus Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:01 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD] On DB Bloat, Bad DB Design, and various What your saying is sort of like making an integer variable and limiting the values to only 10 and then later on changing the allowable values to 15. Right? I know the db doesn't use the 255 characters(unless needed). You are still limiting the amount in the FE, correct? Otherwise I don't agree. I put limits on these things to prevent "Good Users" from doing "Bad Things". Scott Marcus TSS Technologies, Inc. marcus at tsstech.com (513) 772-7000 -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:46 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD] On DB Bloat, Bad DB Design, and various >What if the maximum for a text field was 512? Would you then set the limit to 512? Yep. It is not a big deal. Expanding a text field may be a HUGE deal. It cannot be done unless everyone is out of that table. So I have to (potentially) go boot all the users, and in the case of my current client REBOOT THE DAMN SERVER (because the lock file is getting mangled all the time). All to change a text field with artificial limits. It isn't like the db USES 255 characters, it just ALLOWS 255 characters. It is NOT my business to tell the user they cannot enter valid data in a field. If the business rules CLEARLY STATE that I need to do that then I do, else I don't. I have never seen a business rule that said the address1 (address2, last name, take your pick) had to be some arbitrary fixed length. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Scott Marcus Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 7:38 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD] On DB Bloat, Bad DB Design, and various << Just today I had to go in and remove a mask that the client requested. When I designed the db the client swore up and down that they would NEVER have claimants residing outside the US. They did NOT want a country field, they wanted a US state table etc. I explained the obvious and gave them what they asked for. Today I removed the zip code mask so that a Canadian zip could be entered. The 2nd line of the address is being used for the city and country. Why is it such a big deal to go and make the change? That's why they pay you. What if the maximum for a text field was 512? Would you then set the limit to 512? Scott Marcus TSS Technologies, Inc. marcus at tsstech.com (513) 772-7000 -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of John W. Colby Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 8:59 PM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: RE: [AccessD] On DB Bloat, Bad DB Design, and various Brett, >If you always allow 255 characters for your text fields, do you format your forms and reports to display that size of data? I format forms to accept as much as is normally needed plus some, taking in to account screen real estate. You can always scroll left / right or even add scroll bars to text boxes to allow vertical scrolling as needed. In reports I use AllowToGrow so that the box can expand vertically as needed. >Of course, I'm assuming that you don't display all 255 characters. On forms that is obviously true, on reports it is false. >Have you ever encountered users that misuse the fields? Of course. >Doesn't allowing the entry of 255 characters in any text field (say Address 2) invite the careless user to treat it as the Memo field they forgot to ask for? Yes. OTOH, how do you handle it? OK, lets not make it 255, let's make it what.... 25? What happens when they really do need 26? OK, if not 25, then what? 50? You are making an arbitrary decision, running the risk of a valid address not fitting (and I've seen some pretty big ones) or, if you expand to 50, then allowing the user a short memo anyway. I cannot set the rules for the user, the client needs to do that. If the client does not want the user using Address2 as a memo field they need to state that. If the user uses Address2 as a memo field then the client needs to discipline their employee. My job is to allow the user to capture the data, whatever that data might be. My job is NOT to tell the user "make it fit in 20 spaces". IF the client asks me to set up a zip code mask, or a phone mask or whatever I will do so. That is the CLIENT requesting it. If the client requests that I set Address2 to 20 characters then I will do so, because the CLIENT asks me to. I will state the argument that the address might be longer than 20, explain that in the event they encounter an address longer than the limit they will have to get all the users out of the db (or at least out of that table) in order to modify things so that the address fits. If they want 20, then they get 20 but I am never going to arbitrarily make such a decision. If the data MUST be limited, or checked in some way, for a valid business rules reason, I will do that. But that is fundamentally different from arbitrarily "deciding" on 20 (or whatever) characters. I certainly do not agree that it is sloppy programming (db design). Just today I had to go in and remove a mask that the client requested. When I designed the db the client swore up and down that they would NEVER have claimants residing outside the US. They did NOT want a country field, they wanted a US state table etc. I explained the obvious and gave them what they asked for. Today I removed the zip code mask so that a Canadian zip could be entered. The 2nd line of the address is being used for the city and country. I explained the obvious and was explicitly told NOT to give them what they ultimately needed. No way in hell I am going to INTENTIONALLY not give them what they need just because I personally think an address should fit in 25 (or whatever) characters. John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com -- _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- _______________________________________________ AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com