Jim Lawrence
accessd at shaw.ca
Sat Apr 8 23:16:57 CDT 2006
Shamil: ...Or there is a saying that; "There is light at the end of the tunnel but is it a train coming." Jim -----Original Message----- From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil Salakhetdinov Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:33 AM To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost >there is light at the end of the tunnel: Jim, It's Friday there - just yesterday I have occasionally heard Russian style joke (everybody laughed at it here): "There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel, &(^$%&^%, is still lasting and lasting..." Shamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lawrence" <accessd at shaw.ca> To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:18 AM Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > News articles like this show that there is light at the end of the tunnel: > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/03/business/03labor.html?hp&ex=1144123200&en= > d181ebfb30f96ebf&ei=5094&partner=homepage > > Jim > > PS You may have to log in.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Shamil > Salakhetdinov > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:30 PM > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > >> I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... > Jim, > > That's in my opinion a correct/the best for you solution of this issue. He > most probably go bankrupt soon. It may happen also he will make a fortune > but he will never feel lucky from this fortune made on overexploitation of > others. So the correct Wiseman solution is to leave him to go on his > own... > >> Folks overseas don't really understand how >> we do business here. > I'm sorry - this is not correct statement, Jim :) > > I have been silently watching the first set of answers on this thread - > just > > to get the common context on this issue existing overthere. > > Folks it's biased, this context and the common opinion, believe me. > > People do business very similarly these days all around the World, > especially in IT. > The only difference are the hourly rates/wages, which are still lower on > the > > East. > But they are also growing very quickly here and e.g. in many modern > professions they are as high as on the West or nearing to them. > Unfortunately software development here is not one of the popular > professions. This is because there is no yet high market demand on custom > software development for middle-/small-businesses, which themselves are in > "embryonic" state here. > They should "wake up" soon when Russia enters WTO. > A developer's day cost for big companies here is ~800USD/day - not as high > as there but not bad at all. > And this market exists for big players here for quite some time and only > grows. > > The effectiveness of the design and programming work is quite low in > average > > in the West Europe as I have seen. > The level of failures in very high. > Everybody knows that this "ever lasting software development crisis" > started > > when the first programming language was created and it will probably last > forever. And this is this crisis and inability for a long time to solve it > what creates demand on low cost IT labor. > > I here have many times these "east Indians", "east Europeans" (including > Russians of course) crossing my road, stealing my customers by bidding > "dirt cheap" etc. As the result I lost almost all hopes a couple of years > ago to find well paid projects to live here and to keep my family well. > The > situation changed to the better now, I have some good work but I still > have > to work as twice as I worked five years ago just to keep the same living > level as before. And I can't say this "endless working marathon" is what I > wanted from this life most of all... > > The situation was that bad here that I even started to try to bid for > projects on RentACoder - and I have soon found that "dirt cheap" are not > only "east Indians" - these are folks (young programmers) from all around > the World, many of them are from the West Europe and US and Canada - they > are also going bidding lower than USD10/hour.... > > The civilized overseas programming average rates are currently 30USD/hour. > They were higher, around USD 50/hour on year 2000 eve. But I doubt this > (30USD/hour) relatively low rate will leave you there unemployed because > to > compete effectively worldwide, worldwide effective real or virtual > companies > > have to be created and to manage these companies, to effectively contact > the > > local customers over there experienced managers and developers like you > are > needed. There are not that much people like that there as far as I see - I > think you can feel safe, at least while your economy is growing... > > And there is so much programming work here - when you'll have all work > done > there ( :) ) then we will have a lot of it here for you and you'll be > paid > your usual rates because the rates here will be by that time the same as > there and you will not need to go live here - you'll be able to work > off-shore as well as I can do it now because of the high level of the > current communication technlogy and because my qualification is good > enough > go compete worldwide without even leaving my home/office... > > When the companies here go "dirt cheap", pay their programmers low wages > then they have very high level of "work force leakage", unhappy developers > leaving this country in searching for the better life over there. I have > seen/visited such companies here - they state they are great, well, maybe, > they develop not bad software - but, boy, you have to see the eyes of > their > developers, many of them are so sad and hopeless... > > Shamil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at earthlink.net> > To: "'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'" > <accessd at databaseadvisors.com> > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: [AccessD] Access Application - per unit cost > > >> Eric, >> >> I won't do that. The problem with that setup is that the thinking and >> the >> culture are just too different. Folks overseas don't really understand >> how >> we do business here. I've seen way too many apps developed overseas that >> were just trash because of this. >> >> And you'll end up paying later as well; ever try to debug a program >> commented with poor English or even worse, another language? >> >> I'd say to that fellow best of luck.... >> >> Jim. >> > <<< tail skipped >>> > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > -- > AccessD mailing list > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com -- AccessD mailing list AccessD at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com