Benson, William (GE Global Research, consultant)
Benson at ge.com
Wed Nov 28 17:24:18 CST 2012
<<20% reduction for more hours? That is really a masked premium on the short term request.>>
You have older, established clients for the most part.
When you tell a *prospective* client that you will give them a 20% reduction it is telling them that
1) I am not that busy
Or
2) If I GET AROUND TO YOUR PROJECT FOR THE FULL 16 hours or more in any given 2-week period
I will be happy to discount you.
What it does, is it is leaving the recipient of whatever the ultimate billing rate is, dependent on your schedule. And if you are busy doing 35+ hrs for someone old (who they can surmise based on your fee schedule is getting a cheaper rate) and someone new comes along who you can only give 5 or 10 hours a week to their project that you promise to "try to fit in" for them ... then not only are they waiting longer for their project to get completed, but they know they are paying a premium price for it.
Argue this is you like - and Jim, by all means with your own clients, do whatever makes sense.... but I do not take back my assertion that this is a thinly veiled mark-UP to the people who only get you (or need you - hard to say who's the culprit) for under 16 hrs.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Jim Dettman
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 9:25 AM
To: 'Access Developers discussion and problem solving'
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Need for an Access programmer
<<20% reduction for more hours? That is really a masked premium on the short term request.>>
It's not masked in that I make the same offer to every client right up front. I treat all clients exactly the same and their all aware of it.
I feel if their willing to give me more then 16 hours a week consistently, they deserve a break at that point. It certainly does entice them to use me more, which is the point of offering it. But on the flip side, even my regular rate is not unreasonable for the level of services I offer ($70/hr is on the low end of the scale in comparison to most outfits).
<<I tell one client my
minimum schedule is 16 hrs per week. If they blow me off during the week they are billed 16 hrs regardless. >>
I don't work on any type of retainer, but strictly by the hour. I've found that retainers, flat fees, etc. always get you into trouble at some point.
Don't use contracts either. If someone doesn't like my work their free to fire me on the spot (which keeps me on my toes) and I'm free to walk away from anything (never happened yet as I've been very lucky to have the clients that I've had - many fall into the "friends" category at this point).
And I bill the same for everything; travel, training, technical work, programming, or whatever. I take the viewpoint that they pay for my time, not the specific skill I'm using at the moment.
Keeps life very simple and straight forward and everyone is happy with the setup.
They know they won't get charged any more then exactly what it will take to get a job done and I get paid for every hour I work. No scoping out the project, them making a guess which either ends up over charging them or me getting the short end of the stick. If it makes them feel more comfortable to have a project scoped out, then I will do that, but they pay for that work by the hour. There's also no arguing about what's billable and what's not and projects can change as quickly as needed.
The only real downside is that it has lead to doing more work for fewer clients and it's never good to have all your eggs in the same place. Almost all my clients I've had from the get go, which is now 28 years. But many are retiring, selling off the business, passing away, etc, so I'm now down to a handful. Still working 40 hours a week without issue, but I'd like to have a few more and actually finding time to find new clients has become difficult.
Jim.
-----Original Message-----
From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
[mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William Benson
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 08:20 AM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] Need for an Access programmer
20% reduction for more hours? That is really a masked premium on the short term request. I like it but I am a little more direct, I tell one client my minimum schedule is 16 hrs per week. If they blow me off during the week they are billed 16 hrs regardless. The way I see it, even if I just use the downtime to think of improvements or do additional testing of work I already completed or develop my skills (by participating on a Listserv or discussion forum e.g. :) I am not idle -and I was "ready to serve".
I can't just pick up the phone and drum up replacement clients like a dental hygenist during a week in which he/she gets a cancellation or two.
Speaking of which... when is the last time anyone has seen a male dental hygenist. I am not making any stereotypical observations that is a serious question, do they exist? I have never seen one and I have been in several dental offices and seen at least 10, none have been male. Now there is a decent paying profession as an alternative to Access Programming.
...grabled by smrat phonn as ususl
On Nov 27, 2012 1:59 PM, "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at verizon.net> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I'm in the same place and I feel $70 - $80 is more realistic for
> programming services from a lone consultant.
>
> I've been charging $70/hr now for a number of years (about the past
> 15) and give a 20% discount on top of that for a consistent level of
> work (more then
> 16 hours a week in a trailing two week period). I've been using that
setup
> for a long time and I'm able to say that I've never lacked for full
> time work. The clients I deal with seem to feel that it's not an
> un-reasonable rate.
>
> I do plan to up my rate Jan 1 to $75 as I think I've fallen behind
> the curve a bit.
>
> Some companies do charge $130 - $150/hr, but I always see those
> relations as vary contentious. Clients always feel like their getting
> ripped off
and
> are always arguing over billing. I think if you peeled all the layers
> away, you'd find their not making anywhere near as much as one would
> think. So much ends up as non-billable.
>
> In fact that's the way I invoiced long ago and never have a desire to
> return to it. My rate was double back then and life got far simpler
> when
I
> cut my rate in half.
>
> Clients got a lot happier and so did I.
>
> FWIW,
> Jim.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com
> [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of William
> Benson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 01:33 PM
> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
> Subject: Re: [AccessD] Need for an Access programmer
>
> These discussions seem to crop up from time to time and I dont like
> the impression I may be falsely giving. In truth I have only recently
> gotten the courage to ask for 75/hr. I did market research to see that
> 75 per hr is chump change in the B2B consulting world.
>
> I asked someone who runs an IT group here and he told me they bill out
> at about 135 per hour for their consultants. They dont do excel or
> access programming They have no problem paying me 75/hr for building
> an excel solution and don't care if I prefer to use access if it will
> help them get a larger project out the door or provide an interim solution.
>
> So what they really are paying for is results and their main project
> is worth millions and all they know is they have an exposure they dont
> want
to
> have and want me to handle that piece.
>
> My other client has vastly deeper pockets but hiring freezes and
> constant "work-out" sessions so to he keeps telling me that he cant
> afford me. Then asks me to do work anyway and pays me more than my
> rate as a lump sum yo deliver something. And I checked up and found
> out they pay personnel companies well over 100 per hr for talented ppl.
>
> Not sure I know which I would rather be: (1) consultant with a few
clients
> who I can bill a high rate... suffering mixture of feast (late nights
> and high stress) or famine (lots of time on my hands for Listserv
> posting and reading). Or (2) ... a commodity ( i.e. having a skillset
> only) and go
from
> site to site, making a lower wage but perhaps having more certainty
> where
I
> will be at any given time period.
>
> Now that I have jinxed myself by writing this my two clients will
> probably dry up and I will be starving in 2 months and neither option.
>
> Connections are also important.... networking.
>
> Regards,
> BILL
>
>
> ...grabled by smrat phonn as ususl
> On Nov 27, 2012 11:41 AM, "Mark Simms" <marksimms at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Not even close here in Philly. Even New York since the financial
> > crisis
> has
> > see a dramatic drop in rates.
> >
> > >
> > > Well that makes me feel a lot better about my consulting rate of
> > > $75/hr...
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > AccessD mailing list
> > AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
> >
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
> --
> AccessD mailing list
> AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
> http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
> Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
>
--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com
--
AccessD mailing list
AccessD at databaseadvisors.com
http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/accessd
Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com