[AccessD] AI

Fri Nov 17 13:19:35 CST 2017

I agree with you, Jim.

What I am waiting for the day when we are able to present our data sources, describe the presentation and reports required and maybe even the algorithms and methodologies to be used and then just let the computer go to it. It would tell us what it requires; security, encryption, protocols, access rights and the like. One day a group of developers could create a system that could assemble certain types of data, from all over the world and be able to present results, after lunch. Such a system would still require human creativity, innovation and direction (at least for a couple of decades) but the struggle anticipating system limitations and syntax errors would be over. 

The new Microsoft AI office suite.

Jim  

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Dettman" <jimdettman at verizon.net>
To: "Access Developers discussion and problem solving" <accessd at databaseadvisors.com>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 3:43:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AccessD] AI

<< They don't teach themselves anything. They never will. They need humans to
assign value.>>

   They have already passed that hurtle...there are many examples of machine based learning (IBM's Watson for example).  Granted it's rudimentary at this point in comparison to humans and they do it within an initial set of parameters given by humans (we are no different actually), but they do learn. 

   For me, it's not hard to imagine a day when humans will no longer need to be involved.

-----Original Message-----
From: AccessD [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Bill Benson
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:07 PM
To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
Subject: Re: [AccessD] AI

Rocky, I don't know what you expect me to say. I am stating my opinion and
you don't have to accept it. And I don't think I will have to worry about
being proved wrong. Computers are machines. Machined are not conscious.
They don't teach themselves anything. They never will. They need humans to
assign value.

I've said my bit. You can put in the "last word" if inclined, the debate
bores me frankly. Science has over promised on AI in my opinion. It will be
a decent tool if it can be made safe, but it AI is, itself, an oxymoron.
Again IMHO. I'd like to see a computer have its own humble opinion LOL.

On Nov 16, 2017 6:35 PM, "Rocky Smolin" <rockysmolin at bchacc.com> wrote:

> " would be happy to amend my statement to say not in your lifetime"  all
> righty then.  The jury is still out then isn’t it?
>
> " we have (notionally anyway) an existence outside of our bodies" Now
> there's an obscure statement.  What are you hinting at? Something in the
> theological vein? Perhaps (date I say it) one's immortal soul without which
> you're speculating that there can be no reflecting consciousness?
>
> Hmmm, a bold assertion. Presumptuous one might say - to hang your thesis
> on an unproven assumption.  But...that's what makes a horse race.
>
> R
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AccessD [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of
> Bill Benson
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 PM
> To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
> Subject: Re: [AccessD] AI
>
> It does not necessarily cover a really, really long time if time stops.
> But that's just one of the many possibilities that could happen with Time.
> To assume something which had a start will necessarily not have an end is a
> pretty big leap of faith. I would be happy to amend my statement to say not
> in your lifetime and long past the lifetimes of anyone who will remember
> you as well.
>
> Anyway, it was not so much a statement about how much time it would take,
> but a statement about the way computers are currently built, and how they
> will be built for the readily foreseeable future. Under current
> architectural principals, which involve mechanical instruments and energy
> sources, as opposed to bio-engineered components (and if you are going to
> call bio-engineered computers "architecture" then you may as well say that
> human beings are already "computers", just not very sophisticated ones),
> there can be no singularity. WE may not be able to distinguish computers of
> the future from sentient and conscious beings, but those fabricated
> entities will never "know" they are computers, they will only be able to
> continue to run routines which they were programmed to run, and not "know"
> they are running anything. And I guess by "know", I mean feel.
>
> What makes humans meta machinery is that we have (notionally anyway) an
> existence outside of our bodies. Has this been proven? It depends on who
> you ask. But I think it is a pretty safe bet that any computer, no matter
> how advanced, once there is no longer a power source to keep it running,
> will immediately stop thinking. I think this becomes particularly important
> for those considering to eventually upload their consciousnesses into some
> kind of mechanical housing way off in the future, in an effort to live
> forever. In my view while they may succeed in creating cloned mechanical
> replications of their "beings", those beings will not really be "beings",
> rather they will be "its", and they will be able to interact with their own
> like (and if we are still around, the likes of us) but not ever deserve the
> right to vote.
>
> <IMHO>
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Rocky Smolin <rockysmolin at bchacc.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Your mind seems pretty well made up on the subject.  Perhaps this is a
> > good time to review a notorious list of predictions about tech:
> >
> > https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertszczerba/2015/01/05/15-
> > worst-tech-predictions-of-all-time/#776c6afd1299
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/yaz3yced
> >
> > " never, ever, ever" covers a really, really long time.
> >
> > R
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AccessD [mailto:accessd-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf
> > Of Bill Benson
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 3:09 PM
> > To: Access Developers discussion and problem solving
> > Subject: Re: [AccessD] AI
> >
> > But does the computer know it is playing Go? Does it "know" anything?
> >
> > Computers will never, ever, ever have true consciousness, and they can
> > never teach themselves anything that their creators did not design
> > them to "learn", and they will never be able to make qualitative
> > judgments about the value of what they are learning unless their
> > creators tell them what's valuable. They can never feel, so they can
> > never infer or interpret anything unique or uniquely.
> >
> > Anyone who preaches AI reaching a singularity is a nut case.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Jim Lawrence <accessd at shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > That a computer could be taught to play the game of GO is
> > > irrelevant, in the over all scheme of things. That a computer could
> > > teach itself the toughest game on the planet. And it’s just getting
> > > started; that is the real story.
> > >
> > > http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/quirks-and-quarks/segment/14467121
> > >
> > > Computers invent new ways to play the world's hardest game.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
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