Shamil Salakhetdinov
shamil at users.mns.ru
Thu Mar 10 07:57:51 CST 2005
> I hope that you are well, and I hope that my comments come across as > friendly, but not sharp. Hello Mark, Yes, I'm well, I've just returned from my ski walk from Finnish Gulf. It has a thick ice covered by snow. The weather is great here these days, sunny and frosty... Your comments are well taken here. I can't say I found them sharp. Not at all. > Thanks for the FYI though You're welcome! > Oh, and do you think that it has even a one percent chance of succeeding? I think the chances are not high. But what they ask for in the petition looks reasonable for me. > I have one exception to all these thoughts, if you have any > information that I am unaware of regarding benefits of the old > platform, tell me / us and with that I reserve the right to change my > mind to an extent. No, I don't have any information you're unaware of but old platform have got developed a lot of real-life applications up&running these days. To stop supporting it is as to say: "We don't care about your time, money, your investments, we care about ours only, still we wanted you to support us today and in the future.". Sounds stupid as it is and looks like "cutting the branch on which one is sitting". I can be wrong. I signed this petition because I agree with this its statement/requirement: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< We believe the best way to meet these objectives is for Microsoft to include an updated version of VB6 inside the Visual Studio IDE. For brevity we'll call this update "VB.COM". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is really useful - I'm currently developing for VBA, VB6, VB.NET, C#, C++ - and switching between VS.NET and VS6 and have them both installed looks uncomfortable... > but that is what we signed up for in our vocation, I think that it is > the nature of the it industry, I do not expect it to ever be easy, now > or in twenty years time. It I wanted a static industry I could have > chosen carpentry, it is around a while. IMO this petition is not to make IT industry static - it's to make it less crazy and less chaotic and to force/ask the leaders of this crazy race to stay committed for what and how they do. > Whereas if we all have to > learn .Net, we will spend the next two years trying to figure out how > to populate a list box etc. I think it would be a good idea to not spend that much time on that :) - they (MS) are cooking Avalon (http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3469551) - it and XAML will substitute WinForms in the not that far future.... > If they do not reduce and finally stop > supporting com, then natural inertia will allow the status quo to > continue. They DO support COM in VS.NET 2003 and in upcoming VS.NET 2005 - this is ATL in unmanaged Visual C++. They DO make it stronger and easier to use from version to version etc. I think they DO still broadly use COM for their own development. When they will stop supporting COM then the new MS Windows platform will arrive. It will not happen in the near future, will it? Longhorn will continue to support COM I think... > Is it not the case that for financial reasons, MS push us all the time > to the limit of our abilities to keep up with the code that they > produce. But at the same time, they drag us kicking and screaming > along the technology trail? Did I understand you properly: are you saying that these are not financial reasons MS pushing us? I think these are mainl commercial reasons MS are pushing us. They have to get their ROI sooner or later. They will get it as it was many times before. They did invest in Java. Visual Studio 6 had Java. They planned to become the main players in the Java field. But then Sun managed to not let MS to "corrupt" Java. They needed to save their investments in Java and they used the code base from their Java project to develop .NET Framework. BTW, I did try to compile some native Java samples in J# - they just work... ... .NET Framework is great. No doubts. I like it. But I think that the main interests behind it are commercial. No doubts too... ...and I don't have any negative emotions about that - I also these days write programs because of commercial reasons to earn money for my family living... > Is VB6/VBA worth keeping? Is there something that is more special > about it that deserves to retain it than lets say, word version 2 or > other technologies that have been retired in the past. Yes, I think VB6/VBA keeping is worth because investments in them were huge. <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This mirrors the approach taken for the C language and enhances the viability of VB.NET while preserving customers' assets. By continuing development of both managed and unmanaged Visual Basic, Microsoft will demonstrate their commitment to their entire developer community. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with this statement of this petition too. I must say the more I'm getting back into C++ these days the more I sorrow I switched to VB/VBA back to year 1994. Yes, I did get quite some very good experience in developing real-life applications and a lot of good friends all around the World but in the same time a lot of my time investments in code I have written for myself and for my customers are going to be lost. I've also missed some advanced mainstream tendencies of the "real-world" C++/OOP programming like software design patterns etc.... ...my wise colleague who are stick to C/C++ has now code written almost twenty years ago up&running inside his payroll application adapted to MS Win platform using MS Visual C++ and ATL. And he doesn't need to change that much - his code will mostly be OK in the current and coming versions of Visual Studio.... ...I did also do experiment with the C code, which I have first written for PDP11, then ported to MS DOS(Borland Turbo C) and now I did port it to MS VS.NET (C++) - it wasn't that much work to do that port.... Thank you for you long message. I must say I didn't expect such a "hot" and "sharp" reaction when I posted here information about petition :) I just thought there are a lot of very experienced VB/VBA developers here who will be interested to support "VB.COM" inside Visual Studio and who will feel relaxed if MS will commit to implement proposed "VB.COM" by thus saving their and their customers investments. And of course I will try to "push" my customers to develop new projects using .NET Framework despite the fact that I signed this petition... Shamil Salakhetdinov Russia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Breen" <marklbreen at gmail.com> To: "Discussion of Hardware and Software issues" <dba-tech at databaseadvisors.com> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [dba-Tech] A petition for the development of unmanaged VB andVBA... > Hello Shamil, > > Is VB6/VBA worth keeping? Is there something that is more special > about it that deserves to retain it than lets say, word version 2 or > other technologies that have been retired in the past. > > Is it not the case that for financial reasons, MS push us all the time > to the limit of our abilities to keep up with the code that they > produce. But at the same time, they drag us kicking and screaming > along the technology trail? > > I am aware that the migration from Com to .Net / managed environment > is a big change for the world to make, but by MS forcing our hands, we > all have to move on. If they do not reduce and finally stop > supporting com, then natural inertia will allow the status quo to > continue. > > Sure, for the person that is currently lightning fast at developing > vb6 apps, that suits them, but is it progress to let the existing > situation remain as is? > > Now I know that we could argue that if we remain in the com > environment, we can focus our energies on User Interface Design and > other ergonomic issues, also we can focus on addressing, more > accurately, the business requirements. Whereas if we all have to > learn .Net, we will spend the next two years trying to figure out how > to populate a list box etc. > > But my suspicion is that the individual programmer or development > department will continue to place the same priority on those > non-technical issues as they have in the past, in other words, blaming > the learning curve of new technology is not the real culprit in bad > software. In my opinion, ideology - or lack of a good one - is. > > So, to summarise, given my limited knowledge of the differences and > benefits of the managed vs un managed environments, and my lack of > awareness of any huge benefits of remaining with the un-managed > environment, I would be more in favour of 'bring it on MS", > > sure we will burn the midnight oil again for the 10th time in fifteen years, > sure we will struggle and buy more books, and say "once I over come > this new hump in my lack of knowledge, I will be flying" > sure we did it with dos, windows, Access 2, Access 97, VB, SQL, Dot > Net, the internet etc etc, > > but that is what we signed up for in our vocation, I think that it is > the nature of the it industry, I do not expect it to ever be easy, now > or in twenty years time. It I wanted a static industry I could have > chosen carpentry, it is around a while. > > I have one exception to all these thoughts, if you have any > information that I am unaware of regarding benefits of the old > platform, tell me / us and with that I reserve the right to change my > mind to an extent. > > Thanks for the FYI though > Oh, and do you think that it has even a one percent chance of succeeding? > > I hope that you are well, and I hope that my comments come across as > friendly, but not sharp. > > Mark Breen > Ireland > > > > > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:44:06 +0300, Shamil Salakhetdinov > <shamil at users.mns.ru> wrote: > > FYI: http://classicvb.org/petition/ > > > > Shamil > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dba-Tech mailing list > > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-Tech mailing list > dba-Tech at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-tech > Website: http://www.databaseadvisors.com