[dba-Tech] Has anyone kickstarted?

Sat Mar 14 07:36:31 CDT 2015

Yes, I listed a big bunch of analytes, essentially to give an idea of 
the scope of monitoring that we are doing with our waters.  One of the 
excellent tools we do use is a HydroLab, which gives us things like 
dissolved Oxygen, pH, temp, and the like.  It would be very interesting 
to see what is feasible with a spectrum analysis. I'll just sit back 
here and watch your progress.  Thanks for a fascinating subject.  :-)
TNF

Tina Norris Fields
tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com
231-322-2787

On 3/13/2015 1:10 PM, John W. Colby wrote:
> A couple of thoughts.
>
> First, a lab analysis is probably much more rigorous and precise than 
> anything that a device like this could provide.  Although maybe not.
>
> Second, many of the things that you mention are probably not 
> quantifiable using spectrum analysis.  Things like dissolved O2, E. 
> coli etc.  Not that those things couldn't be analyzed in some other 
> manner.
>
> Third, there is an entire web site dedicated to this subject, 
> including analysis of environmental issues.
>
> http://publiclab.org/
>
> I would definitely advise going there to learn more.
>
> Fourth, emergency analysis of specific things might fit very well to a 
> low cost portable analyzer.  Emergencies often trump absolute 
> precision, where it is important to get immediate results, even if 
> they are less than optimal.
>
> I will be playing with this technology over the next few weeks, trying 
> to discover how well it works, how reliable it can be etc. I am 
> personally unhappy with the results I get with the chemical analysis 
> tool kits for aquarium water (and pool water).  It is just darned 
> difficult to really decide what I am seeing.  I have high hopes that 
> having a spectrum analysis and a computer will enable me to get more 
> "hard facts" rather than "opinion".  The technology is not very 
> expensive, assuming that I can make it work.
>
> There are a lot of ends to tie up however.  How to calibrate the 
> system against the various solutions / color scales.  How to 
> physically isolate the light source, specimen and sensor to avoid 
> light pollution.  And assuming that those problems can be solved, how 
> to take it further into automating the preparation of water samples etc.
>
> I think all of that is solvable, but it might need money to pay for 
> stuff like calibration samples, cad / design / manufacturing of the 
> machine and so forth.  That is where the KickStarter comes in.
>
> On a different but related note, I am searching for MakerSpaces close 
> to home.  The closest to me are these:
>
> http://www.forgegreensboro.org/
> http://hackerspacecharlotte.org/about-hsc/
>
> So maybe I have to drag my community out of the dark (furniture 
> industry) ages and start one myself.  My area is trying to bootstrap 
> itself into technology.  A MakerSpace would help that a lot.
>
> John W. Colby
>
> On 3/13/2015 10:29 AM, Tina Norris Fields wrote:
>> JWC,
>>
>> Could this technique be expanded to assist in water sampling analysis 
>> for lakes and streams?  We do periodic sampling of our waters here, 
>> for Phosphorous, Nitrite:Nitrate, dissolved Oxygen, pH, temperature, 
>> E. coli, phytoplankton, and some other stuff. Our fieldwork plans 
>> always include designating who will get the samples to the lab within 
>> the required time parameters, which means that sampling over a 
>> weekend is problematic because the labs are not open.  Finding a 
>> solution to that issue with an accurate light spectrum analytical 
>> tool would be very welcome. Thoughts?
>>
>> TNF
>>
>> Tina Norris Fields
>> tinanfields-at-torchlake-dot-com
>> 231-322-2787
>>
>> On 3/12/2015 3:08 PM, John W. Colby wrote:
>>> Visible spectrum analysis of lights (LEDs, florescent etc) is widely 
>>> talked about (and done) in the aquarium community. Basically shine a 
>>> light of interest on a spectrum analyzer and measure the strength of 
>>> the light at various frequencies.  A kickstarter project built an 
>>> inexpensive analyzer using a diffraction grid plastic, a shaped 
>>> (dark) box and a cell phone camera.  Use the cell phone to run 
>>> software to display (and graph) the resulting spectrum.
>>>
>>> http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/spectrometer
>>>
>>> Measuring various properties of aquarium water (inexpensively) uses 
>>> measured vials of water (5ml), adding various "number of drops" of 
>>> one or more titrating liquids. You then compare the resulting liquid 
>>> color to a color card to determine the amount of the substance being 
>>> measured.  You can buy kits which measure PH (High and low), Amonia, 
>>> Nitrite and Nitrate.  The process involves taking 4 water samples. 
>>> then dropping the correct number of drops of various things into 
>>> each sample, comparing the resulting colors to an included card.
>>>
>>> For anyone who has actually done this... it is an inexact science to 
>>> say the least.  The color cards contain shades which are difficult 
>>> (impossible) to really accurately gauge when holding the tube 
>>> against the card.  As an example, the Amonia test is really yellow 
>>> turning to green, but it is basically impossible to tell which of 
>>> three shades your tube matches.  In this example, any three adjacent 
>>> shades are close enough together (to the eye) that "who knows".  And 
>>> yet for example, one is 1 PPM (borderline bad), the next is 2 PPM 
>>> (bad) the next is 4 PPM (do a water change NOW, do not stop for 
>>> dinner).
>>>
>>> So all you really get is a range.  Unfortunately one end of that 
>>> range is non-toxic, the other is toxic as hell.
>>>
>>> So...
>>>
>>> Take the tubes of water, beam light through them and measure the 
>>> resulting color intensity with a spectrum analyzer using a camera 
>>> and software.  If the light intensity is known and stable (a white 
>>> LED), the sample is placed in a dark chamber so only light from the 
>>> LED can pass through the sample (and not leak around the sample), 
>>> the distance from the sample to the diffraction box is stable, and 
>>> the distance from the diffraction grid to the camera is stable (and 
>>> doesn't leak light) then you should be able to accurately and 
>>> reliably measure intensity and color of light through the sample.
>>>
>>> Reliable analysis.
>>>
>>> If you can automate the process, you get automated reliable 
>>> analysis.  Twice a day (week, month) measurement of all measurable 
>>> parameters.  Throw in water temp.  Throw in logging. Throw in Wifi 
>>> and a browser interface.  Heck, throw in automated dosing of 
>>> chemicals to correct the issue.
>>>
>>> The first part (measuring the color) is relatively simple. 
>>> Automation is not.
>>>
>>> I am ordering the USB Desktop analyzer and will then build a little 
>>> box to hold the sample vials such that light is forced through the 
>>> vials (not around) and a powerful white LED as a light source.  I 
>>> will then test the measuring concept with this widget. If it works 
>>> then I can reliably measure my own aquarium water.
>>>
>>> If it works, that is where kickstarter would come in, 
>>> commercializing this.  There is a pretty large community out there 
>>> of folks doing aquariums, even high end aquariums.  Lots of people, 
>>> lots of money.  From what I can tell, and I have done a lot of 
>>> reading, everyone just uses the liquid tests. So selling into a high 
>>> end market where people already use and are comfortable with these 
>>> tests, but providing really accurate measuring, logging etc seems 
>>> like a viable business.
>>>
>>> John W. Colby
>>>
>>
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