John W. Colby
jwcolby at colbyconsulting.com
Tue Dec 7 16:20:13 CST 2004
Real men (and Women) don't use IDEs. Command line compilers, command line switches... Notepad for an editor... John W. Colby www.ColbyConsulting.com Contribute your unused CPU cycles to a good cause: http://folding.stanford.edu/ -----Original Message----- From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan C Contractor/Morgan Research Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:57 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy"Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." OK, now I understand ... Thanks Ron. As usual, Microsoft is being incredibly obtuse and misleading. (I wonder if all software companies are like this - or is Microsoft just a special case?) Alan C. Lawhon -----Original Message----- From: chizotz at mchsi.com [mailto:chizotz at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:16 PM To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." I'm going to jump in here and say that the SDK contains _command line_ compilers that you can indeed use to compile .NET programs that you write in a text editor. So what MS says on their site is true. But to be productive you still need the Visual Studio tools to have the IDE etc. The SDK does NOT include the framework itself; that is in the "Microsoft .NET Framework Version 1.1 Redistributable Package" which must be installed before the SDK. Ron > Richard: > > I do not mean to question what you're telling me, but I want to make > absolutely sure that we're both on the same wavelength. I understand > that the .NET "Framework" simply provides the .NET runtime > environment, (and NOT the various .Net developer tools - such as > ASP.NET, ADO.NET, and VB.NET - among others). > > What I am specifically asking about is the information at this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Microsoft download site, where the following descriptive text appears > verbatim: > > Quote: > > .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1 > > The MicrosoftR .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version > 1.1 > includes everything developers need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET > Framework applications - documentation, samples, and command-line tools and > compilers. > > End Quote: > > Of course, trying to decipher Microsoft marketing hyperbole can be > something of > an exercise in futility, but when you read this statement word-for-word, they do > use the words "... everything developers need ..." (among others) and they ARE > describing a "Software Developer Kit" (SDK) product. Also, the SDK download is > approximately 106 Megabytes - which is quite a bucket of bits! (Pardon the pun > ...) The .NET Framework (by itself) is just a tad over 20 Megabytes. (I know > this for a fact because the .NET Framework [download] appears as an "optional > download" when I run Windows Update on my home computer. > > My question boils down to this: Are you SURE (really sure) that the > "Microsoft > .NET Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) version 1.1" [download] is merely > the .NET runtime environment? (If that is all it is, what is the extra 86 > Megabytes and why is Microsoft using terms like "command-line tools and > compilers" as well as "write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework > applications ..." in their description of the product? > > If this SDK can be used as a relatively inexpensive (or free) > "learning tool" to > help me learn (and write) VB.NET code, then I think it would be well worth the > bother of downloading to my home computer - even on a slow dial-up connection! > > I'm going to cross post this to the AccessD List in the hopes that > Charlotte > Foust and John Colby will see it. > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Griffiths, Richard [mailto:R.Griffiths at bury.gov.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:32 AM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi > The framework simply provides the dotnet runtime environment. To > develop you need Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. I've > seen recently for about $700 and this includes windows 2003 and sql 2000 > (developer/test editions) - not bad really > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com] On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: 07 December 2004 17:07 > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com; accessd at shaw.ca > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic.NET Standard 2003 ..." > > Jim: > > Thanks for the .NET links & info - which I am now diligently research- > ing. I need a bit of clarification concerning one of the links you > provided. First, some background ... > > We are in the process of coming up with a recommendation for our > customer concerning what software (and development tools) should be > purchased in order to facilitate conversion of our environmental > database application to a "web enabled" environmental database > application. I also have a secondary goal of obtaining an > "affordable" .NET integrated development environment so that I can > "play around" with VB.NET, ADO.NET, ASP.NET, (and whatever-else .NET > is required), on my home computer. (I have a feeling I can learn more > at home versus all the constant "distractions" and interruptions here > at work ...) > > I have visited the link you provided to Microsoft's download site for > the (free?) ".NET Framework SDK Version 1.1" IDE. According to info > at this MS site, the 106 MB download contains "everything developers > need to write, build, test, and deploy .NET Framework applications - > documentation, samples, and command-line tools and compilers." I > presume this means that this download includes the VB.NET compiler, > ADO.NET, ASP.NET and other .NET development tools - in other words > just about everything that is bundled with Microsoft's full-up version > of Visual Studio .NET? > > What has me scratching my head is this: I went to Microsoft's "Product > Information" page for Visual Studio .NET 2003 "Professional" Edition. > > URL: http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&pcid= > 9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6&type=ovr > > and the "full up" (not upgrade) version of Visual Studio .NET lists > for $1,079.00 direct purchase from Microsoft. > > So, why is Microsoft, in effect, "giving away" the .NET Framework SDK, > (Version 1.1) "free" at one of their download sites while charging > $1,079.00 for [virtually] the same product at another Microsoft site? > Either I'm missing something here, or I'm totally confused, or > something. > > There has to be a "catch" here, because Microsoft doesn't "give away" > anything for free - or anything that is not "crippled" (or a woefully > lacking subset) of the full product. > > Have you actually downloaded (and used) the ".NET Framework SDK, > Version 1.1" product? (We are leaning toward recommending that our > customer buy a copy of the full up version of "Visual Studio .NET 2003 > Professional" edition.) > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lawrence (AccessD) [mailto:accessd at shaw.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:18 PM > To: dba-vb at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: RE: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual > Basic .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > Hi Alan: > > I am currently following the same route, a little further ahead but if > you look sharp I can be seen just up the trail a bit. Following are a > few of the > options out there. The actual portion of the .Net application suite that > generates the web code is ASP.Net but the full .Net studio has ASP.Net > incorporated: > > Here is the pointer to the Asp.Net webmatrix editor and appropriate > tutorials...and it is free. > http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/tour/section2/newconn.aspx > > Sharpe Develop is IDE has Asp.Net, C#.Net and Vb.Net (Open > source)...and it is free. http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ > > The SDK can be downloaded from M$...and it is free. > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b3a2ca6-3647 > -4 > 070- > 9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en > > Nothing like fair pricing and a good place to start. The best OS > platform to develop the coding and testing is on an XP or 2000 server > as they have IIS > built in and applications can test immediately. > > Good luck and have fun. > > HTH > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com > [mailto:dba-vb-bounces at databaseadvisors.com]On Behalf Of Lawhon, Alan > C Contractor/Morgan Research > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 2:15 PM > To: dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > Cc: dba-AccessD at databaseadvisors.com > Subject: [dba-VB] Please Advise: Should I Buy "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003 ..." > > > ... or just try to learn what I can from [VB.Net] books alone? > > Well, the "future" has finally arrived ... Here at work we have a > fairly significant environmental database application that we have > been using (and > "tweaking") for the past five years. The application, called "EDS" - > which > stands for "Environmental Document System" - started off as a very > simple > Access 97 application. Over time, as the capabilities of the system > grew > and the need to provide client/server access was realized, the front end > migrated to Access 2000 and the back end [eventually] migrated to SQL > Server > 2000 - which is where we are now. > > Well, you know how customers are ... they are always wanting changes > (or "something new") and that is the case with our customer. EDS is > becoming increasingly popular with users outside our immediate > organization. So popular, in fact, that our Government manager has > requested that we "web enable" EDS and make EDS accessible from a web > browser - such as Internet > Explorer. Gulp !! It didn't take too much web surfing (and research) > to > realize that "web enabling" EDS is going to be thirsty work ... > > The EDS database consists of multiple form and report objects with > lots of event driven Visual Basic code. Most of the VBA code is > attached to command > buttons as Click_Event() procedures. (There's a lot of logic testing > and > conditional execution for business rule implementation within the VBA > code.) > > The research I have done (so far) indicates that I face a steep > learning curve when it comes to web programming. I'm already looking > at "HTML & XML for Beginners" (book) by Michael Morrison and I have > just ordered a couple > of books on databases and VB.Net programming. (I have ordered > "Beginning > VB.Net Databases" by Thearon Willis and "Programming Microsoft Visual > Basic > .NET for Microsoft Access Databases" by Rick Dobson.) I figure these > two > books will give me plenty to chew on - at least initially. > > The senior programmer and I have been looking on the internet for the > proper .NET development tool. Right now it looks like we will be > asking our customer to pay for a full-up version of Visual Studio 2003 > - or whatever > contains the full "Professional" version of MS Visual Basic .NET. While > researching the various developer tool alternatives for VB.NET > programming, > I came across this page at Amazon.com's web site: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/002-1179299-3348025 > > The "Standard" edition of Microsoft VB.Net [2003] appeals to me for > two > reasons: It's (relatively) affordable - less than a hundred dollars - > and > the "Standard" edition might be a good "learning tool" for playing > around > with VB.Net on my home computer. However, the "Standard" edition > appears to > have a number of ... uhm ... limitations. (Look at Frank Spillman's > "Roadblocks, Roadblocks" reader review in the above link.) > > I would be grateful if some of the folks on this list who have > actually done some web programming (especially with VB.Net) could > offer advice and opinions with respect to the "Microsoft Visual Basic > .NET Standard 2003" [web] development tool. Basically, I'm wondering > if the "Standard" edition > has enough capability to serve as a useful "learning tool" - or is it so > "crippled" that I would be better off simply reading .NET books? > > Thanks in advance ... > > Alan C. Lawhon > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ > dba-VB mailing list > dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com > http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb > http://www.databaseadvisors.com > _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com _______________________________________________ dba-VB mailing list dba-VB at databaseadvisors.com http://databaseadvisors.com/mailman/listinfo/dba-vb http://www.databaseadvisors.com